Nothing more than assumptions based upon the "Elitist" Stereotype...
But for the sake of satisfying my inner Tellarite... While PvPer would buy any benefit they can... PvEers do the very same AND PvEer would be more likely to buy all these shiny Uniforms that have absolutely no gameplay value...
And ONE MMO does not constitute a trend or is enough to base any conclusions on...
That MMO is actually the exception to the trend. All MMOs since 2008 (with the exception of initial releases) have done nothing but decrease in popularity and size.
I work in the industry, it is talked about all of the time. The consumer base is moving back towards console gaming with XBOX Live and PSN more than MMOs.
The MMO "era" so to speak is in its twilight years, and has been for quite some time. it will be a slow death for sure, as there are still over seven million people playing the big one, WoW, but compare that to the 12 million they had just five years ago.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Nothing more than assumptions based upon the "Elitist" Stereotype...
Assumptions abound in forums. And stereotyping seems to as well.
But for the sake of satisfying my inner Tellarite... While PvPer would buy any benefit they can... PvEers do the very same AND PvEer would be more likely to buy all these shiny Uniforms that have absolutely no gameplay value...
I think you're kinda missing the point that there are those who would do both, if both where given any attention at all, as opposed to empty promises. Sorry if that doesn't fit your stereotype.
Not sure where you find posts in this thread suggesting that STO become PvP-centric.
I never said anything about anyone suggesting STO become PvP-centric - see near the bottom of this post for what I was getting at.
That's understandable. Both the PvE and PvP player benefit from the development of the environment and the story.
That's not the reason why the concentration goes into PvE content though - that's where the vast majority of the playerbase spends their gaming time.
Still not seeing how WoW and Eve are not being considered, in that I'm not aware of either of them floundering or brushing aside their PvP.
It takes me almost an hour to get either Temple of Kotmogu or Silvershard Mines to pop in WoW, and both of those are required PvP battlegrounds for the legendary cloak quest chain. Blizzard's latest attempt to spark some open world PvP on Timeless Isle has also been a complete bust. Setting that aside though, WoW's in another universe compared to STO. Not only do they have millions of players, you still need a subscription to play. They can afford to cater to a minority that makes up around 5% of the total WoW population, because that's still a quarter of a million PAYING players.
As for EVE, not only does it have a PAYING playerbase of around half a million, when it released in 2003 is was THE quintessential space MMO, and the way the advancement system works means that it has had a pretty good retention rate. Open space PvP was also designed to be an integral part of gameplay. Like WoW, it's simply not remotely comparable, and therefore irrelevant to a discussion about PvP in STO.
As for revenue generation... appealing to as broad a demographic as possible is always good business.
Not when the cost of appealing to a minor niche demographic outweighs the potential revenue generation - especially when that niche demographic has a track record for quickly becoming dissatisfied even when the MMO revolves around the sort of gameplay they want (hence my point about even PvP-centric MMOs failing one after another). STO already appeals to a player demographic that constitutes by far the vast majority of MMO players: primarily PVE'ers.
That MMO is actually the exception to the trend. All MMOs since 2008 (with the exception of initial releases) have done nothing but decrease in popularity and size.
that's not true.
there are sites which track MMO populations and many of them go up as well as down depending on various factors.
it's not all /\_ as you suggest
this game is one of them and is a FAR healthier state than it has been at many points in the past.
indeed there were, in my estimation, easily more people playing at the F2P and LOR launch than at the games initial launch.
and EVE has seen a reduction in player numbers and like most PVP MMOS post launch has basically topped out at only around half a mil of a player base...despite it being the endless mentioned by "hardcore PVPers" all over the internet as the doyenne of FFA PVP MMOs it's not actually all that popular...
the real truth is PVP focused MMOs simply aren't as popular as non PVP focused MMOs...oh PVPers make a lot of noise alright but average people...average people who are not somewhat naturally hyper competitive thrill seeking teenty somthings...don't generally like the omnipresent threat of conflict and/or loss involved in non optional PVP...or indeed the seemingly overly competitive attitudes of many who do...
this picture may be clouded to you as you only have a western viewpoint (your mention of WoW betrays that) but consider for a moment something like Maple Story (which is actually a FAR, FAR bigger game than WoW) and there are plenty other non western MMOs which dwarf WoWs (actually largely insincere) "subscriber" numbers.
MMOs are very far from dying...in fact they are only just about to launch onto consoles in a serious way...the market has diversified is all...and there's nothing wrong with that...if you want EVE go play EVE, if you want LOTRO go play LOTRO, if you want STO...well lucky you you're already here :P
just to be clear i don't hate PVP...i have put some input into this thread that should make that clear...but you're not going to get EVE in a Star Trek skin for free here. you're just not.
There is a major flaw in this assessment of what is "wasting time"
Historically PvP players make up the most hardcore and likely to purchase any benefit they can obtain in battle. Id dare say the average PvPer in this game spends 10 times more on things than a casual PvEer ever will.
Small community perhaps, but the sheer amount of transactions of the few counterbalances their size.
In terms of proportion perhaps, but that's not really relevant. What's relevant is whether the amount they might potentially spend justifies the expenditure. Given the raft of PvP fails over the past decade, how much more evidence is necessary to show that, in general the expenditure is not justified?
A healthy PvP community is a cash cow, and it boggles my mind that Cryptic/PWE have yet to really tap into it.
Like Rift tried to? Go back to my previous post and take a look at Rift Dev Daglar's post.
You also need to stop cherry picking your data, the current fastest growing MMO in the entire world is actually the PvP centric and long standing EVE Online. In fact it is the ONLY western MMO that is even growing at all, every other one is in decline, period. The whole industry has been in decline since 2008.
I've already covered EVE online in my previous post. Furthermore a single, decade-old PvP-centric space MMO doing well vs. a plethora of failures and about-turners.... that's not really compelling evidence in favour of putting effort into revamping PvP in STO.
All this time, all these posts, and this resembles very similar threads going back, way back, all the way back to launch and before it.
The PVPers insult the PVEers (in this case, even in the title of the OP). They imply their own self-importance and further proclaim the game a failure if they do not get their way.
They then, for some weird reason, turn around and whine about being marginalized, and especially weirdly whine about the insults they receive, either blind or projectionist when it comes to yet another tussle they stirred up first.
The game goes on, life goes on, and they stamp and yell in a corner demanding attention.
If you really want PVP stuff to be paid attention to by us PVEers (which you will probably need the attention of if you want enough buzz for the devs to ever, ever care), it's probably best to drop the elitism nonsense, stop insulting everyone while whining about insults, and accept that you're not the only people in the room, and for that matter are a minority.
Minorities can be respected (yet I'm skeptical how respectful many PVPers in this game would be if the tables were turned in their favor). The issue is demanding the majority sit down, shut up, and accept any and all demands.
I never said anything about anyone suggesting STO become PvP-centric - see near the bottom of this post for what I was getting at.
You might consider finishing your points in the posts you start them. Less confusing that way.
That's not the reason why the concentration goes into PvE content though - that's where the vast majority of the playerbase spends their gaming time.
Didn't say it was, but it is relevant to the question of resource expenditure for the purpose of serving the minority.
It takes me almost an hour to get either Temple of Kotmogu or Silvershard Mines to pop in WoW, and both of those are required PvP battlegrounds for the legendary cloak quest chain. Blizzard's latest attempt to spark some open world PvP on Timeless Isle has also been a complete bust.
Are you playing on a PvP or RP-PvP server? That may make a difference. I haven't really played WoW since the cataclysm.
Setting that aside though, WoW's in another universe compared to STO. Not only do they have millions of players, you still need a subscription to play. They can afford to cater to a minority that makes up around 5% of the total WoW population, because that's still a quarter of a million PAYING players.
Not sure where your pulling that 5% from, but most companies would jump on a 5% increase in revenue.
As for EVE, not only does it have a PAYING playerbase of around half a million, when it released in 2003 is was THE quintessential space MMO, and the way the advancement system works means that it has had a pretty good retention rate. Open space PvP was also designed to be an integral part of gameplay. Like WoW, it's simply not remotely comparable, and therefore irrelevant to a discussion about PvP in STO.
Sorry. You didn't specify that you were only considering f2p games in your last post. Details like that help in our conveyance of ideas.
Not when the cost of appealing to a minor niche demographic outweighs the potential revenue generation - especially when that niche demographic has a track record for quickly becoming dissatisfied even when the MMO revolves around the sort of gameplay they want (hence my point about even PvP-centric MMOs failing one after another). STO already appeals to a player demographic that constitutes by far the vast majority of MMO players: primarily PVE'ers.
Your point still does not apply, as no one is suggesting that STO become PvP-centric.
At worst players are asking for the promises (yes, I'm using that term loosely) that have been made to be fulfilled.
As for the fickle nature of the PvP playerbase... it's a behavior that is consistent across the entire player base.
I would like to point out to the poster above me and anyone else reading this, that in this game in particular ive noticed something quite unusual.
It is the hardcore PvE community that seems to have the biggest ego in this game. Not the PvP one.
But that is my personal experience, ive run into some serious *******s in the PvE crowd.
In contrast the majority of the PvP crowd, at least from who I know and have associated with, are among the most congenial and accomodating people ive ever met in any mmo. For example, the Pandas might tear your face off in a match, but ive been on TS with them, even been invited there on a number of occasions for PvP events and other stuff.
They actually WANT you to come stay and pewpew. Follow me?
Its a lot different than I am used to from my SWG days, where a typical PvPer was a kiddie troll trying to make you quit.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
PvP breaks the game. That's why we don't want PvP.
You really think the devs, who everyone seems to agree have ignored PvP, would risk offending an entire class of PvE players to satisfy the miniscule amount of non-sci PvP players? Not all those assumptions are reconcilable.
I would like to point out to the poster above me and anyone else reading this, that in this game in particular ive noticed something quite unusual.
It is the hardcore PvE community that seems to have the biggest ego in this game. Not the PvP one.
But that is my personal experience, ive run into some serious *******s in the PvE crowd.
In contrast the majority of the PvP crowd, at least from who I know and have associated with, are among the most congenial and accomodating people ive ever met in any mmo. For example, the Pandas might tear your face off in a match, but ive been on TS with them, even been invited there on a number of occasions for PvP events and other stuff.
They actually WANT you to come stay and pewpew. Follow me?
Its a lot different than I am used to from my SWG days, where a typical PvPer was a kiddie troll trying to make you quit.
So you offer an elaborate and wordy "NO U".
Your claims are hardly convincing, especially because you only have what I have offered as well: personal experience. The PVP community here, when I left it (and I was a part of it from around launch to well over a year later), was arrogant, obnoxious, and scaring away the new and curious by the dozen.
Big difference? There's a lot of PVEers. Not just here, but elsewhere, in game, at all times. PVPers exist, surely, but there are games already better suited to their activities, quite a few to be exact. Games that aren't all about asymmetrical super builds that utterly dominate the unwary, nor of iron-fisted expectations for everyone to use such builds or be called every possible internet-warrior insult.
The burden's on you, here. Perhaps some compromise can be made, but probably not from the perspective of the OP or those echoing his sentiments. Telling swaths of people that you supposedly want to join you for an activity how "afraid" they are of you is childish. Period.
You really think the devs, who everyone seems to agree have ignored PvP, would risk offending an entire class of PvE players to satisfy the miniscule amount of non-sci PvP players? Not all those assumptions are reconcilable.
No...what I was trying to say nicely is that PvP'ers yell Nerf so much they have caused more harm than good to the game. The ineffectiveness of sci powers is just one glaring example of this.
If there are more than many of us are giving credit for, why are PvPers constantly bleating on about the lack of players running PvP content? One of the concerns illustrated in this very thread by PvPers, is that PvP queues tend to take ages, and that PvPers want more PvPvE maps with carrot-on-stick incentives for PvE players to enter, only further justifies the fact that there aren't enough people engaging in it.
Furthermore, you only need to skim through this and a couple of other recent threads, to get a fairly good impression of just how many players want nothing to do with PvP, compared to those that do.
The STO Forums gives you the opinions of a small fraction (the most vocal) of the STO player base. When you look in many of the threads you see many of the same names voicing the same arguments. I am a member of 3 cross faction fleets, two of which have maxed out rosters. Whenever the word forums in mentioned any of the fleet channels, you get responses ranging from "Wait...what forums?" to "lolforums". To say it is representative of anything other than a small minority of vocal players is silly.
A thorough reading of the forums will reveal that STO is doomed, everyone on the forums are sock puppets that work for Cryptic, and that it will close it's doors in 2 weeks for the last 4 years.
It makes perfect financial sense not to waste time, money and resources on a facet of gameplay that will never attract enough paying players to recuperate the expenditure, let alone turn a profit.
To give you an idea, look HERE for the thoughts of one of the Rift developers on PvP earlier this year. It's worth noting that prior to closed beta (which my PvP guild was a part of), Rift was being touted as a new haven for members of the MMO PVP community.
Apples and oranges. From reading that link it appears to me that they blundered a mechanic and it seems that the law of unintended consequences paid them a visit.
PvP doesn't pay - the host of failed and currently failing PvP-centric MMOs provides stark testament to that fact. Heck, the host of MMOs that originally touted both PvE & PvP in more or less equal measure, that have ended up brushing PvP aside and concentrating almost purely on PvE, is just as damning. The only sort-of exception is GW2, but even there the developers are putting more time and effort into PvE content than PvP, and their hybrid financial model generates revenue from digital and boxed game sales, something Cryptic doesn't have the luxury of.
MANY MMOs fail, due to any number of reasons, to poor planning, horrible rollouts, game breaking bugs, atrocious customer support, not delivering promised content, not living up to expectations....
An MMO that narrows it's focus and gameplay also narrows it's playerbase, and therefore it's income potential.
I do not PvP. It's not my cup of tea. But why should you or I or anyone else take away or limit the aspect of the game that others DO enjoy and has the potential to bring others who also looking for that style of play. So far, STO has failed the PvP community miserably.
PvP in this game is a joke. As long as the super-build exists and ships like the Jem'hadar Attack Ship dominate simply because they are designed to, I (and many other PvE'rs) want no part of your PvP game. Case in point, I decided to 1v1 a friend of mine in an Advanced Obelisk Carrier, fully decked out in MACO gear and Mk XII purples. I've seen this ship tank Into the hive Elite successfully, it's a tough beast. Meanwhile, Me, with a borg set and some critty consoles with antiproton weapons, completely decimate him in seconds. Rip through his shields and cripple him with one pass, loop around and finish him off, even while he was trying to react to me. That's not fun, man. And I'm not totally optimized for PvP really, I'd hate to see how quickly anyone who IS PvP centric can tear open people.
Sardak (Science Officer): Captain of a 23k DPS R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel, R.R.W. Vathos Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
I wouldn say I fear it... I have reservations... I am not ashamed to admit that.
Everytime the PvP'ers get their way, it epicly ruins the builds that some of us have put a fair deal of efford into, because the PvP'ers would rather cry Nerf, than learning to deal with the setup already in place.
Now, if it dosen't mess up the builds... I am fine with it.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Whenever the word forums in mentioned any of the fleet channels, you get responses ranging from "Wait...what forums?" to "lolforums". To say it is representative of anything other than a small minority of vocal players is silly.
Yeah, you're right. If they'd just get rid of the forums, PvP might actually have been far more than functional by now. It's the screamers for nerf that have pulled the game down, and keep it down. Constantly jeering the devs has had a very negative effect.
Dan Stahl used to post very often, but when he kept getting acid thrown in his face, he started telling people if they did not like the game, they should quit.
I wouldn say I fear it... I have reservations... I am not ashamed to admit that.
Everytime the PvP'ers get their way, it epicly ruins the builds that some of us have put a fair deal of efford into, because the PvP'ers would rather cry Nerf, than learning to deal with the setup already in place.
Now, if it dosen't mess up the builds... I am fine with it.
Yeah, you're right. If they'd just get rid of the forums, PvP might actually have been far more than functional by now. It's the screamers for nerf that have pulled the game down, and keep it down. Constantly jeering the devs has had a very negative effect.
Dan Stahl used to post very often, but when he kept getting acid thrown in his face, he started telling people if they did not like the game, they should quit.
Stahl not too long ago said, half in jest but with a grimness in his voice on a podcast that "Klingons will never be satisfied". Way back in the day, Klingon was synonymous with PVPer, especially "angry vocal insulting everyone yet whining about being victimized" PVPer. Which seems familiar right now.
An MMO that narrows it's focus and gameplay also narrows it's playerbase, and therefore it's income potential.
on the other hand you can't be all things to all men.
and while you should maybe give your weaknesses some attention you should also play to your strengths.
not even WoW is all things to all men.
damn game has had 3 times as many people people try it and say "no" than were playing it (at the time) according to Rob Pardo in interview once. that's at least 30+ million potential MMO players that had a look and said "no" to WoW...meaning the MMO market is far, far bigger than most people realize.
No...what I was trying to say nicely is that PvP'ers yell Nerf so much they have caused more harm than good to the game. The ineffectiveness of sci powers is just one glaring example of this.
PvP'ers have been yelling for a lot of things. The point still stands: The devs are unlikely to risk offending a much larger segment of players to satisfy a much smaller segment.
It is more likely that the devs found the reason for their action in the way that particular set of mechanics was effecting PvE gameplay.
Personally, I'm finding sci-powers to be pretty effective, btw.
PvP in this game is a joke. As long as the super-build exists and ships like the Jem'hadar Attack Ship dominate simply because they are designed to, I (and many other PvE'rs) want no part of your PvP game. Case in point, I decided to 1v1 a friend of mine in an Advanced Obelisk Carrier, fully decked out in MACO gear and Mk XII purples. I've seen this ship tank Into the hive Elite successfully, it's a tough beast. Meanwhile, Me, with a borg set and some critty consoles with antiproton weapons, completely decimate him in seconds. Rip through his shields and cripple him with one pass, loop around and finish him off, even while he was trying to react to me. That's not fun, man. And I'm not totally optimized for PvP really, I'd hate to see how quickly anyone who IS PvP centric can tear open people.
I'd like to test those two ships, yours and your friends. Please contact me, roxbad@roxbad in-game. I'd be commanding a non-fleet Gal-R, without zen or lockbox gear.
I'd like to test those two ships, yours and your friends. Please contact me, roxbad@roxbad in-game. I'd be commanding a non-fleet Gal-R, without zen or lockbox gear.
That's part of the problem right there: seems just about any issue or greivance that can be said can be answered with "dude duel me". It doesn't resolve much but is definitely an ego-stroking exercise. I guess it's hard to see the problem can't be solved by showing off or waving an e-youknowwhat.
Old Republic is polluted in Fleet chat with "dude duel me" tough talk. PVP in that game is signifigantly more enjoyable, but even so, it has some obnoxious kids too.
If this isn't some veiled "dude duel me", I stand corrected. But I doubt it.
You might consider finishing your points in the posts you start them. Less confusing that way.
It really wasn't hard to infer.
Didn't say it was, but it is relevant to the question of resource expenditure for the purpose of serving the minority.
It's only relevant in that it doesn't support really your stance.
Are you playing on a PvP or RP-PvP server? That may make a difference. I haven't really played WoW since the cataclysm.
I have characters on EU-Quel'Thalas, and EU-Frostmane. BG queue times for both are similar, regardless of time of day - though Frostmane's queues are a little better during the weekend.
Not sure where your pulling that 5% from, but most companies would jump on a 5% increase in revenue.
STO is F2P, so there's no guaranteed increase in revenue. Which brings me to this:
Sorry. You didn't specify that you were only considering f2p games in your last post. Details like that help in our conveyance of ideas.
I thought it would have been easy to understand, but apparently it wasn't. Not only do EVE and WoW have playerbases many, many times larger than STO - putting them both in a different league - they generate revenue through digital/box sales and monthly subs. This makes them completely incomparable with STO, because it operates on a different revenue model.
It also means STO would have real method of determining if PvP revamp were successful or not - unless revenue generation went up (or down) by an amount greater than accounted for by standard deviation. So they could hedge their bets on a known niche demographic, or they could play safe and continue catering to the demographic that constitutes the vast majority of MMO gamers.
Your point still does not apply, as no one is suggesting that STO become PvP-centric.
The point, is that even when developers create an entire game that revolves around their style of gameplay, they're STILL prone to becoming quickly dissatisfied and either whine constantly, or simply move on. What chance would Cryptic have of not only satisfying the current PvP niche for any appreciable amount of time, but also drawing in enough PvPers - or converting enough PvE'ers - to actually make their implementation profitable?
It's only relevant in that it doesn't support really your stance.
I have characters on EU-Quel'Thalas, and EU-Frostmane. BG queue times for both are similar, regardless of time of day - though Frostmane's queues are a little better during the weekend.
STO is F2P, so there's no guaranteed increase in revenue. Which brings me to this:
I thought it would have been easy to understand, but apparently it wasn't. Not only do EVE and WoW have playerbases many, many times larger than STO - putting them both in a different league - they generate revenue through digital/box sales and monthly subs. This makes them completely incomparable with STO, because it operates on a different revenue model.
It also means STO would have real method of determining if PvP revamp were successful or not - unless revenue generation went up (or down) by an amount greater than accounted for by standard deviation. So they could hedge their bets on a known niche demographic, or they could play safe and continue catering to the demographic that constitutes the vast majority of MMO gamers.
The point, is that even when developers create an entire game that revolves around their style of gameplay, they're STILL prone to becoming quickly dissatisfied and either whine constantly, or simply move on. What chance would Cryptic have of not only satisfying the current PvP niche for any appreciable amount of time, but also drawing in enough PvPers - or converting enough PvE'ers - to actually make their implementation profitable?
The last thing Talaj said here is very relevant and has historical precedent.
Let's see: Shadowbane. Darkfall. Mortal Online. That weird 2Moons thing. All PVP centric, all designed, intended to cater to many of the whims of the people posting in this thread. All failures.
Sure, there's some korean gankfests like the Lineage series, but that's not exactly a good thing to emulate, because it also reeks of the goldfarming culture and creepy quasi-pedo artstyle, among other bad things. It's a predator's game for sure but I doubt it'd translate well into western imitation.
You all should fight me, all at once. Everyone in this thread vs Rylana.
GLORIOUS BATTLE
Haw haw haw!
Amusing I admit but that is very seriously how the self-declared "hardcore" PVPers on Old Republic think they can resolve everything. It's entertaining, if a little depressing to watch in local chat. It's like a supervisor not breaking up schoolchildren brawling in the yard just to see how far it escalates.
I'm a pve player and I really don't care about a pvp update, if they're going to do one fine, if not that's fine too.
Personally I'd rather see bugfixes than new content, be it pvp or pve, but with the track record so far of bugs being fixed in one update then being reintroduced in another update the outlook on that looks even less cheerful than pvp updates.
Comments
That MMO is actually the exception to the trend. All MMOs since 2008 (with the exception of initial releases) have done nothing but decrease in popularity and size.
I work in the industry, it is talked about all of the time. The consumer base is moving back towards console gaming with XBOX Live and PSN more than MMOs.
The MMO "era" so to speak is in its twilight years, and has been for quite some time. it will be a slow death for sure, as there are still over seven million people playing the big one, WoW, but compare that to the 12 million they had just five years ago.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Assumptions abound in forums. And stereotyping seems to as well.
I think you're kinda missing the point that there are those who would do both, if both where given any attention at all, as opposed to empty promises. Sorry if that doesn't fit your stereotype.
I never said anything about anyone suggesting STO become PvP-centric - see near the bottom of this post for what I was getting at.
That's not the reason why the concentration goes into PvE content though - that's where the vast majority of the playerbase spends their gaming time.
It takes me almost an hour to get either Temple of Kotmogu or Silvershard Mines to pop in WoW, and both of those are required PvP battlegrounds for the legendary cloak quest chain. Blizzard's latest attempt to spark some open world PvP on Timeless Isle has also been a complete bust. Setting that aside though, WoW's in another universe compared to STO. Not only do they have millions of players, you still need a subscription to play. They can afford to cater to a minority that makes up around 5% of the total WoW population, because that's still a quarter of a million PAYING players.
As for EVE, not only does it have a PAYING playerbase of around half a million, when it released in 2003 is was THE quintessential space MMO, and the way the advancement system works means that it has had a pretty good retention rate. Open space PvP was also designed to be an integral part of gameplay. Like WoW, it's simply not remotely comparable, and therefore irrelevant to a discussion about PvP in STO.
Not when the cost of appealing to a minor niche demographic outweighs the potential revenue generation - especially when that niche demographic has a track record for quickly becoming dissatisfied even when the MMO revolves around the sort of gameplay they want (hence my point about even PvP-centric MMOs failing one after another). STO already appeals to a player demographic that constitutes by far the vast majority of MMO players: primarily PVE'ers.
For example, the reason Science ships don't work anymore...science powers...is because of PvP.
PvP breaks the game. That's why we don't want PvP.
that's not true.
there are sites which track MMO populations and many of them go up as well as down depending on various factors.
it's not all /\_ as you suggest
this game is one of them and is a FAR healthier state than it has been at many points in the past.
indeed there were, in my estimation, easily more people playing at the F2P and LOR launch than at the games initial launch.
and EVE has seen a reduction in player numbers and like most PVP MMOS post launch has basically topped out at only around half a mil of a player base...despite it being the endless mentioned by "hardcore PVPers" all over the internet as the doyenne of FFA PVP MMOs it's not actually all that popular...
the real truth is PVP focused MMOs simply aren't as popular as non PVP focused MMOs...oh PVPers make a lot of noise alright but average people...average people who are not somewhat naturally hyper competitive thrill seeking teenty somthings...don't generally like the omnipresent threat of conflict and/or loss involved in non optional PVP...or indeed the seemingly overly competitive attitudes of many who do...
this picture may be clouded to you as you only have a western viewpoint (your mention of WoW betrays that) but consider for a moment something like Maple Story (which is actually a FAR, FAR bigger game than WoW) and there are plenty other non western MMOs which dwarf WoWs (actually largely insincere) "subscriber" numbers.
MMOs are very far from dying...in fact they are only just about to launch onto consoles in a serious way...the market has diversified is all...and there's nothing wrong with that...if you want EVE go play EVE, if you want LOTRO go play LOTRO, if you want STO...well lucky you you're already here :P
just to be clear i don't hate PVP...i have put some input into this thread that should make that clear...but you're not going to get EVE in a Star Trek skin for free here. you're just not.
In terms of proportion perhaps, but that's not really relevant. What's relevant is whether the amount they might potentially spend justifies the expenditure. Given the raft of PvP fails over the past decade, how much more evidence is necessary to show that, in general the expenditure is not justified?
Like Rift tried to? Go back to my previous post and take a look at Rift Dev Daglar's post.
I've already covered EVE online in my previous post. Furthermore a single, decade-old PvP-centric space MMO doing well vs. a plethora of failures and about-turners.... that's not really compelling evidence in favour of putting effort into revamping PvP in STO.
The PVPers insult the PVEers (in this case, even in the title of the OP). They imply their own self-importance and further proclaim the game a failure if they do not get their way.
They then, for some weird reason, turn around and whine about being marginalized, and especially weirdly whine about the insults they receive, either blind or projectionist when it comes to yet another tussle they stirred up first.
The game goes on, life goes on, and they stamp and yell in a corner demanding attention.
If you really want PVP stuff to be paid attention to by us PVEers (which you will probably need the attention of if you want enough buzz for the devs to ever, ever care), it's probably best to drop the elitism nonsense, stop insulting everyone while whining about insults, and accept that you're not the only people in the room, and for that matter are a minority.
Minorities can be respected (yet I'm skeptical how respectful many PVPers in this game would be if the tables were turned in their favor). The issue is demanding the majority sit down, shut up, and accept any and all demands.
You might consider finishing your points in the posts you start them. Less confusing that way.
Didn't say it was, but it is relevant to the question of resource expenditure for the purpose of serving the minority.
Are you playing on a PvP or RP-PvP server? That may make a difference. I haven't really played WoW since the cataclysm.
Not sure where your pulling that 5% from, but most companies would jump on a 5% increase in revenue.
Sorry. You didn't specify that you were only considering f2p games in your last post. Details like that help in our conveyance of ideas.
Your point still does not apply, as no one is suggesting that STO become PvP-centric.
At worst players are asking for the promises (yes, I'm using that term loosely) that have been made to be fulfilled.
As for the fickle nature of the PvP playerbase... it's a behavior that is consistent across the entire player base.
It is the hardcore PvE community that seems to have the biggest ego in this game. Not the PvP one.
But that is my personal experience, ive run into some serious *******s in the PvE crowd.
In contrast the majority of the PvP crowd, at least from who I know and have associated with, are among the most congenial and accomodating people ive ever met in any mmo. For example, the Pandas might tear your face off in a match, but ive been on TS with them, even been invited there on a number of occasions for PvP events and other stuff.
They actually WANT you to come stay and pewpew. Follow me?
Its a lot different than I am used to from my SWG days, where a typical PvPer was a kiddie troll trying to make you quit.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
You really think the devs, who everyone seems to agree have ignored PvP, would risk offending an entire class of PvE players to satisfy the miniscule amount of non-sci PvP players? Not all those assumptions are reconcilable.
Links?
A cute black and white cousin of the raccoon, that sort of resembles a bear, that eats bamboo and lives in China.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
So you offer an elaborate and wordy "NO U".
Your claims are hardly convincing, especially because you only have what I have offered as well: personal experience. The PVP community here, when I left it (and I was a part of it from around launch to well over a year later), was arrogant, obnoxious, and scaring away the new and curious by the dozen.
Big difference? There's a lot of PVEers. Not just here, but elsewhere, in game, at all times. PVPers exist, surely, but there are games already better suited to their activities, quite a few to be exact. Games that aren't all about asymmetrical super builds that utterly dominate the unwary, nor of iron-fisted expectations for everyone to use such builds or be called every possible internet-warrior insult.
The burden's on you, here. Perhaps some compromise can be made, but probably not from the perspective of the OP or those echoing his sentiments. Telling swaths of people that you supposedly want to join you for an activity how "afraid" they are of you is childish. Period.
No...what I was trying to say nicely is that PvP'ers yell Nerf so much they have caused more harm than good to the game. The ineffectiveness of sci powers is just one glaring example of this.
The STO Forums gives you the opinions of a small fraction (the most vocal) of the STO player base. When you look in many of the threads you see many of the same names voicing the same arguments. I am a member of 3 cross faction fleets, two of which have maxed out rosters. Whenever the word forums in mentioned any of the fleet channels, you get responses ranging from "Wait...what forums?" to "lolforums". To say it is representative of anything other than a small minority of vocal players is silly.
A thorough reading of the forums will reveal that STO is doomed, everyone on the forums are sock puppets that work for Cryptic, and that it will close it's doors in 2 weeks for the last 4 years.
Apples and oranges. From reading that link it appears to me that they blundered a mechanic and it seems that the law of unintended consequences paid them a visit.
MANY MMOs fail, due to any number of reasons, to poor planning, horrible rollouts, game breaking bugs, atrocious customer support, not delivering promised content, not living up to expectations....
An MMO that narrows it's focus and gameplay also narrows it's playerbase, and therefore it's income potential.
I do not PvP. It's not my cup of tea. But why should you or I or anyone else take away or limit the aspect of the game that others DO enjoy and has the potential to bring others who also looking for that style of play. So far, STO has failed the PvP community miserably.
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Everytime the PvP'ers get their way, it epicly ruins the builds that some of us have put a fair deal of efford into, because the PvP'ers would rather cry Nerf, than learning to deal with the setup already in place.
Now, if it dosen't mess up the builds... I am fine with it.
Yeah, you're right. If they'd just get rid of the forums, PvP might actually have been far more than functional by now. It's the screamers for nerf that have pulled the game down, and keep it down. Constantly jeering the devs has had a very negative effect.
Dan Stahl used to post very often, but when he kept getting acid thrown in his face, he started telling people if they did not like the game, they should quit.
Quoted for truth!
Stahl not too long ago said, half in jest but with a grimness in his voice on a podcast that "Klingons will never be satisfied". Way back in the day, Klingon was synonymous with PVPer, especially "angry vocal insulting everyone yet whining about being victimized" PVPer. Which seems familiar right now.
and while you should maybe give your weaknesses some attention you should also play to your strengths.
not even WoW is all things to all men.
damn game has had 3 times as many people people try it and say "no" than were playing it (at the time) according to Rob Pardo in interview once. that's at least 30+ million potential MMO players that had a look and said "no" to WoW...meaning the MMO market is far, far bigger than most people realize.
PvP'ers have been yelling for a lot of things. The point still stands: The devs are unlikely to risk offending a much larger segment of players to satisfy a much smaller segment.
It is more likely that the devs found the reason for their action in the way that particular set of mechanics was effecting PvE gameplay.
Personally, I'm finding sci-powers to be pretty effective, btw.
I'd like to test those two ships, yours and your friends. Please contact me, roxbad@roxbad in-game. I'd be commanding a non-fleet Gal-R, without zen or lockbox gear.
That's part of the problem right there: seems just about any issue or greivance that can be said can be answered with "dude duel me". It doesn't resolve much but is definitely an ego-stroking exercise. I guess it's hard to see the problem can't be solved by showing off or waving an e-youknowwhat.
Old Republic is polluted in Fleet chat with "dude duel me" tough talk. PVP in that game is signifigantly more enjoyable, but even so, it has some obnoxious kids too.
If this isn't some veiled "dude duel me", I stand corrected. But I doubt it.
It really wasn't hard to infer.
It's only relevant in that it doesn't support really your stance.
I have characters on EU-Quel'Thalas, and EU-Frostmane. BG queue times for both are similar, regardless of time of day - though Frostmane's queues are a little better during the weekend.
STO is F2P, so there's no guaranteed increase in revenue. Which brings me to this:
I thought it would have been easy to understand, but apparently it wasn't. Not only do EVE and WoW have playerbases many, many times larger than STO - putting them both in a different league - they generate revenue through digital/box sales and monthly subs. This makes them completely incomparable with STO, because it operates on a different revenue model.
It also means STO would have real method of determining if PvP revamp were successful or not - unless revenue generation went up (or down) by an amount greater than accounted for by standard deviation. So they could hedge their bets on a known niche demographic, or they could play safe and continue catering to the demographic that constitutes the vast majority of MMO gamers.
The point, is that even when developers create an entire game that revolves around their style of gameplay, they're STILL prone to becoming quickly dissatisfied and either whine constantly, or simply move on. What chance would Cryptic have of not only satisfying the current PvP niche for any appreciable amount of time, but also drawing in enough PvPers - or converting enough PvE'ers - to actually make their implementation profitable?
The last thing Talaj said here is very relevant and has historical precedent.
Let's see: Shadowbane. Darkfall. Mortal Online. That weird 2Moons thing. All PVP centric, all designed, intended to cater to many of the whims of the people posting in this thread. All failures.
Sure, there's some korean gankfests like the Lineage series, but that's not exactly a good thing to emulate, because it also reeks of the goldfarming culture and creepy quasi-pedo artstyle, among other bad things. It's a predator's game for sure but I doubt it'd translate well into western imitation.
GLORIOUS BATTLE
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Haw haw haw!
Amusing I admit but that is very seriously how the self-declared "hardcore" PVPers on Old Republic think they can resolve everything. It's entertaining, if a little depressing to watch in local chat. It's like a supervisor not breaking up schoolchildren brawling in the yard just to see how far it escalates.
Personally I'd rather see bugfixes than new content, be it pvp or pve, but with the track record so far of bugs being fixed in one update then being reintroduced in another update the outlook on that looks even less cheerful than pvp updates.