conan, warhammer, and fallen earth are operating but almost dead....especially fallen earth which was basically the eve of ground combat....there probably less than 1000 people by the fans own estimation playing fallen earth atm...they are literally expecting the switch to be thrown any day now.
i am disinclined to count the shooter mmos tbh as they have cross over appeal from other an other genre and are much easier to balance and play casually treating them just like a larger scale FPS...in fact when it comes to the likes of world of tanks i have said many times this could be a mod for any shooter...it may technically be an mmo but in essence all it basically does its FPS 15 a side team deathmatch with a lobby...
At this point, I think we can safely say there's enough examples of both things happening to conclude that nothing is certain when it comes to PVP's supposed importance in an MMO. Cases for are great, but when againsts come around, all vague claims of "the game will die without this!" sound very hollow.
Elder Scrolls Online - Due to release in early 2014, currently in Closed Beta (I got to beta test it a couple weekends ago)
One of the lynchpins of this game is the fact they are touting massive PvP battles in zones that will hold literally hundreds of players. There are PvE elements, naturally, but this game is being developed having an extremely robust PvP centered endgame. And midgame to some extent, since the whole game is focused around a three sided war.
Only time will tell if it does well, but from testing, once they hammer the bugs this game is going to be very very solid. That is my opinion of course, but we shall see if the next PvP centric game makes it or not.
Two years - yes 2 years after Skyrim was released it still has 30k players a day playing on steam - that's a single player game!! Estimate are for over a million still play skyrim weekly - for a 2 year old single player game with no multiplayer and no co-op that is unprecedented.
The current version you can buy is the 'legendary' edition - for once I think a game company is not exaggerating with the edition title!
Two years - yes 2 years after Skyrim was released it still has 30k players a day playing on steam - that's a single player game!! Estimate are for over a million still play skyrim weekly - for a 2 year old single player game with no multiplayer and no co-op that is unprecedented.
Only his examples matter, because in his head, his opinions are "truth".
We may be wasting our time here. He's not getting his way, and we're better for it.
Only his examples matter, because in his head, his opinions are "truth".
We may be wasting our time here. He's not getting his way, and we're better for it.
There is no doubt that once it launches -based on the current fan base - the opening few months will be colossal number of players - the question is Will all those players used to running the map alone and controlling the world alone - can handle dealing with millions of real people in 'their' world.
There is no doubt that once it launches -based on the current fan base - the opening few months will be colossal number of players - the question is Will all those players used to running the map alone and controlling the world alone - can handle dealing with millions of real people in 'their' world.
Hype machines predictably run wild.
I still remember the "GUILD WARS 2 WILL REVOLUTIONIZE MMOS FOREVER" cultists, here and on Old Republic and even on some other games I played at the time.
It may do well. Some PVP games do well, such as EVE Online. Others do not so well, such as Darkfall or Mortal Online. The ambiguity is in favor of saying here "no, there is no certainty we really need to cater to a small if very vocal and demanding group of people in our game."
Elder Scrolls Online is going to be a big game because it's Elder Scrolls Online...i mean c'mon Skyrim is the only western game ever to get 40/40 in Famitsu...Elder Scrolls is a genuinely massive international brand...that and it's a near perfect candidate for a console MMO...probably the first that will pull such things truly into the mainstream of console gaming...as for pvp within it...well i dunno tbh...most Elder Scrolls players can play and Elder Scrolls game for 100s of hours without any desire to see another living Human soul in the process unless they are delivering pizza...i wonder how many of the will react to be teabagged by a Khajiit Nightblade called "SuKsToBeU" or something...
it might have pvp in it...indeed pvp may well be part of the focus of its end game...but i very much doubt pvp will be foremost in the minds of the majority of people buying it...
Elder Scrolls Online is going to be a big game because it's Elder Scrolls Online...i mean c'mon Skyrim is the only western game ever to get 40/40 in Famitsu...Elder Scrolls is a genuinely massive international brand...that and it's a near perfect candidate for a console MMO...probably the first that will pull such things truly into the mainstream of console gaming...as for pvp within it...well i dunno tbh...most Elder Scrolls players can play and Elder Scrolls game for 100s of hours without any desire to see another living Human soul in the process unless they are delivering pizza...i wonder how many of the will react to be teabagged by a Khajiit Nightblade called "SuKsToBeU" or something...
it might have pvp in it...indeed pvp may well be part of the focus of its end game...but i very much doubt pvp will be foremost in the minds of the majority of people buying it...
It's got a PVP bend because one of its heads is a Dark Age of Camelot guy that basically got this IP and is ramming a square peg through a round hole, making a single player masterpiece and trying to turn it into Camelot Electric Bugaloo.
Maybe it will be good. Maybe the PVP will even be fun (wasn't that great in Dark Age of Camelot, especially due to the stealth ganks). But it doesn't have much of a foundation to build on, especially considering almost all of its Elder Scrolls portions have been tacked on near the end of development ("you can now move items on tables!") and that CGI trailer was painfully standard issue fantasy TRIBBLE.
It's got a PVP bend because one of its heads is a Dark Age of Camelot guy that basically got this IP and is ramming a square peg through a round hole, making a single player masterpiece and trying to turn it into Camelot Electric Bugaloo.
Maybe it will be good. Maybe the PVP will even be fun (wasn't that great in Dark Age of Camelot, especially due to the stealth ganks). But it doesn't have much of a foundation to build on, especially considering almost all of its Elder Scrolls portions have been tacked on near the end of development ("you can now move items on tables!") and that CGI trailer was painfully standard issue fantasy TRIBBLE.
Hey, I liked ****. And I like the ES series, I remain hopeful. But if anything may be said about ESO it's that it has really dumb helmets.
Hey now. There is no good reason we should toss PvP. That would be dumb as it would kill a large part of what made MMO's unique for the past 25 years or so that they've been around.
Hey, I liked ****. And I like the ES series, I remain hopeful. But if anything may be said about ESO it's that it has really dumb helmets.
It's fine to like game-that-can-not-be-named. I don't know if it's a good fit for Elder Scrolls. Having a clumsily-assembled trio of "why are these guys allies again?" factions all fighting over the Imperial City sounds very questionable.
Hooray, "YOLOSWAG420" is now the Emperor of Cyrodil! Hail the conquerer and his mighty band "BLAZINIT".
Hey now. There is no good reason we should toss PvP. That would be dumb as it would kill a large part of what made MMO's unique for the past 25 years or so that they've been around.
The same could be said of corpse runs, permadeath, brutal encumbrance rules (you could DIE in MajorMUD if you were handed too many torches), spawn camps, and other "definitive" things that are already on the decline or faded away.
Yes, yes the all mighty "hardcore" will always mourn their passing. Let them.
Elder Scrolls Online is going to be a big game because it's Elder Scrolls Online.
I'm sure it'll be big at launch. I'm equally sure it will crater afterwards, because the things that made the series such a big hit (do anything, build any character, dynamic world) are exactly the kind of things that you can't translate into an MMO.
At the end of the day, its success or failure will rest on the ability of their devs to build a good MMO; in spite of it being Elder Scrolls, rather than because of it.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
I'm sure it'll be big at launch. I'm equally sure it will crater afterwards, because the things that made the series such a big hit (do anything, build any character, dynamic world) are exactly the kind of things that you can't translate into an MMO.
At the end of the day, its success or failure will rest on the ability of their devs to build a good MMO; in spite of it being Elder Scrolls, rather than because of it.
Sounds a bit like STO.
And before the dogma is recited again, no, PVP is not absolutely necessary as a centerpiece or even as a priority in MMOs for them to be successful. Examples have already been given of that.
Usually the reason PvPers cry 'that's OP' is because the object in question is not working as intended. Perhaps a better word would be 'broken'. And when something is broken towards the overpowered end of things, PvEers start abusing it in PvE. A classic example is the tricobalt mine bug, which led to unholy amounts of damage being done in both PvP and PvE. Some PvEers STILL complain about that being fixed.
PvEers are much less likely to complain about broken additions because they're not feeling the effect. NPCs don't complain.
You are right in saying that broken things should of get fixed, but the problem is that sometimes the devs of various games implements what the PvP, or PvE crowd says, with some of their own tweaks, and that nice shiny armor you just got??
Now you might aswell just go into combat against the Borg in your underwear, for all the good that will do you...
Some times it's the PvP crowd that get things changed for what they think is better, but forgets that the item in question also is used a lot by the PvE crowd, or the other way around.
But most of the time it's actually a combination of suggestions from the players, and the devs themselves that makes items get nerfed, and a good deal of the time it's the devs that muck around too much, leaving us players going : "who thought that was a good change to do??"
So it's a trinity of, and let's be honest here, bad calls for changes, nerfs or other things that makes items lackluster...
The same could be said of corpse runs, permadeath, brutal encumbrance rules (you could DIE in MajorMUD if you were handed too many torches), spawn camps, and other "definitive" things that are already on the decline or faded away.
Yes, yes the all mighty "hardcore" will always mourn their passing. Let them.
I'm sure it'll be big at launch. I'm equally sure it will crater afterwards, because the things that made the series such a big hit (do anything, build any character, dynamic world) are exactly the kind of things that you can't translate into an MMO.
At the end of the day, its success or failure will rest on the ability of their devs to build a good MMO; in spite of it being Elder Scrolls, rather than because of it.
Undoubtedly. I just think they're crazy for thinking a sub MMO is going to work in this day and age.
And before the dogma is recited again, no, PVP is not absolutely necessary as a centerpiece or even as a priority in MMOs for them to be successful. Examples have already been given of that.
Undoubtedly. I just think they're crazy for thinking a sub MMO is going to work in this day and age.
Pffffffffffffffch-hahahahaha! :D:D
My point there: Not all things that are "we did this before and did it for a long time" need to be around forever. Yeah, ****'s large pvp moments were neat for many. Thing is, it's still a very clumsy fit for Elder Scrolls, which is banking on Elder Scrolls fans to care about it.
If it was Canned Fantasy Wars Online and floated on its own merits, that'd be a different story altogether.
I have nothing to say about subs versus "free" MMOs. There is a very real problem with "free" games: griefers and cheaters can come back forever even when banned. Planetside 2 has that problem in a huge way.
I can laugh out loud in the exact same way at any and all claims of "this game NEEDS PVP or it will die" claims.
"Wyatt Earp: What makes someone like PvP, Doc? What makes them do the things they do?
Doc Holliday: A PvP'er has got a great big hole, right in the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it.
Wyatt Earp: What does he need?
Doc Holliday: Revenge.
Wyatt Earp: For what?
Doc Holliday: Bein' born."
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
PVP is the life force of modern gaming. Moderate upgrades can only do the game good.
Even if moderate upgrades could be worked in without disrupting the rest of the game or forcing PVE equipment/power changes based upon PVP nitpicking, the "Life force of modern gaming" thing is laughably pretentious. And incorrect.
There's probably one big thing that would make PVP more attractive to casual players: A better matchmaking system, tied to some sort of dynamic ranking so that people with suboptimal builds don't get put opposite somebody who plays PVP exclusively and has minmaxed his ship to where he could one-shot a unimatrix.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
By the way, I am just going to put this out here for the people using "waste of resources" as an excuse.
In any typical developmental studio there are multiple departments and dozens of programmers. Youd be surprised at how easy it can be to divert manpower.
Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing, as there is nothing being added, merely reworks and recycles. The only resource at hand is manpower/labor, and realistically that is minimal due to the ability to work on multiple projects at the same time.
Those of you who never worked in the industry or have no real grasp of how game development is done, need to really understand that a PvP revamp would be so ridiculously cheap for this company (compared to putting the whole studio on crunch mode for yet another lockbox ship) that it would be a nearly 100 percent profit investment to them. Regardless of the size of said profit.
The best time to do said revamp would be a generic game wide bugbash (which has been needed for a while anyway). Since systems and functions would already be being looked at, adding in a couple extra hours here and there to tune them for player versus player gameplay should be a walk in the park.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I just happened upon this thread and thought that I could add something to it. Being the forum newbie that I am, I couldn't really get in on the heated part, but hopefully someone will see this post.
I'm going to give a short disclaimer here for what I am about to say, because I warn you, it is controversial.
What I see in this thread is much less of a problem with the PVP and PVE communities and more of a general problem that exists in our society that has propagated and ingrained itself in the way that we see one another. Like it or not, I see an unwillingness to consider another person's viewpoint, as shown by a lot of scapegoating and personal attacks on both sides.
Our society I believe has taught us more and more so that "winning" an argument or getting the last word is more important than trying to cooperate to solve a problem. In this sense, there is a stark difference between debate and "word wars". Trying to hurt one another is not going to solve anything. I would point to American Congress as of late as a good example of this, but in good taste to Americans, I won't since I'm not qualified to do so since I don't live there.
Rather, I think that really the solution to this is continuous strife to consider aspects of both viewpoints.
A few things I can point to in this thread as the concerns of PVP and PVE:
PVE:
-Is mad because there is the feeling that PVPers always nerf all of the useful things
-Is frustrated because PVP is incredibly hard to get into and start, despite things like PVP boot camp.
-Finds PVP pointless because it isn't interesting.
PVP:
-Is concerned for player numbers and sad because many people often leave PVP after dabbling.
-Tired of grinding in PVE in order to obtain advantages in PVP.
-Wants more than anything in the world to see PVP succeed so that it can be a more enjoyable experience for everyone.
Looking at it like this, I don't see selfishness or hatred at all between the two, but rather a fundamental dysfunction in the game.
A few solutions to solve these problems that I would propose are:
-Making consoles / special abilities function differently for a player or an NPC.
-Removing the artificial barrier of entry by Standardizing PVP gear and invalidating reputation stats.
-Creating more maps for PVP, or use crowd sourcing like the foundry.
These are just a few of the numerous things that could be done to enhance the PVP experience for everyone so that BOTH the "majority" and "minority" are happy. In this situation, PVErs get to keep their mob busting consoles, and they can be balanced for PVP accordingly. PVP would see a lot more newcomers, since a fresh level 50 could hop right in knowing that gear and passives were more or less equal among each ship type. PVP would also get new content with arguably minimal dev art team time, since players can pick that up.
All in all, the potential for this games PVP system is definitely there, and it definitely does not have to come at the expense of PVErs.
Whew, there it was. If there are any errors, forgive me. I used google translate from French to write this.
Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing, as there is nothing being added, merely reworks and recycles. The only resource at hand is manpower/labor, and realistically that is minimal due to the ability to work on multiple projects at the same time.
Bwahahahahaha
Those of you who never worked in the industry
Clearly, you fall into this category, if you think "Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing."
Stop embarrassing yourself.
a PvP revamp would be so ridiculously cheap for this company
Cryptic (and anyone else with real experience) disagrees.
But if you think it's so easy, the job openings are that way
>
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Clearly, you fall into this category, if you think "Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing."
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Cryptic (and anyone else with real experience) disagrees.
But if you think it's so easy, the job openings are that way
>
Im not in the market for a job, I actually develop games for a living. Thats how I know these things. Youre such a cynic. Maybe if you knew half of what i do about the inner workings youd realize how daft you sound. Running concurrence in function auditing = zero cost. You simply rework two systems simultaneously. it really isnt hard considering they generally all revolve around the same few functions that handle everything else.
Go listen to Geko's interview, he even flat out states this. Flat out admits the only reason they havent done it yet is because the suits are constantly demanding they only work on new things. Are you really this clueless?
Whats even funnier is they have been doing this all along. You cant add new things without fixing concurrences anyway, since you get even MORE BUGS if you dont. Its all on a prioritization system of which neither you nor I are privy to.
But hey, keep laughing it up, ignorance is bliss.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I don't see the PVE'ers to be the only ones to fear a PVP revamp .
In fact I think PVP'ers fear a PVP revamp more ... if in fact there is a true revamp and not just a new coat of paint .
Because IMHO if a true revamp comes to light , one that is motivated by correct intentions (meaning that the intent is to get more ppl to actually engage in PVP and see it for the fun it can really be) -- for that to take place , there can be no other choice but to put everyone on the same equal footing .
No more min-maxing .
No more 'super-special' secret builds .
No more new powers with every lockbox .
In fact , (again IMHO) -- Cryptic should embrace their "dumbed down STO" vision to the Nth degree to get every dumb joe to get out there and pew-pew .
Right now you send dumb Joe into PVP and he gets stomped (and let's not go into the list of reasons) .
If you want to sidestep that , then PVP in this game has to be simple to understand cookie cutter powers (I'd say no more then 5 powers tops , or the equal of todays Lvl 3 PVP) .
But no one wants that .
Not really .
Cryptic will loose their de-facto QA team (the PVP forums bunch) .
And the PVP forums bunch will never willingly let go of the ability to min-max and tweak and keybind their stuff to be "better" or "superior" .
And ultimately , if a real PVP revamp will come up on the horizon , the choice will be between making PVP "easy" (based on skill alone) , or "hard" continue down the road of min-maxing & reputation & unbalanced game & TRIBBLE PVE for the sake of PVP .
And this is why I don't think a true PVP revamp is coming .
Cryptic says that it "loves to learn" ?
I wonder what have they learned from their own PVEVP mission that was introduced in Neverwinter roughly 7 months ago ?
Comments
At this point, I think we can safely say there's enough examples of both things happening to conclude that nothing is certain when it comes to PVP's supposed importance in an MMO. Cases for are great, but when againsts come around, all vague claims of "the game will die without this!" sound very hollow.
Two years - yes 2 years after Skyrim was released it still has 30k players a day playing on steam - that's a single player game!! Estimate are for over a million still play skyrim weekly - for a 2 year old single player game with no multiplayer and no co-op that is unprecedented.
The current version you can buy is the 'legendary' edition - for once I think a game company is not exaggerating with the edition title!
Only his examples matter, because in his head, his opinions are "truth".
We may be wasting our time here. He's not getting his way, and we're better for it.
There is no doubt that once it launches -based on the current fan base - the opening few months will be colossal number of players - the question is Will all those players used to running the map alone and controlling the world alone - can handle dealing with millions of real people in 'their' world.
Hype machines predictably run wild.
I still remember the "GUILD WARS 2 WILL REVOLUTIONIZE MMOS FOREVER" cultists, here and on Old Republic and even on some other games I played at the time.
It may do well. Some PVP games do well, such as EVE Online. Others do not so well, such as Darkfall or Mortal Online. The ambiguity is in favor of saying here "no, there is no certainty we really need to cater to a small if very vocal and demanding group of people in our game."
it might have pvp in it...indeed pvp may well be part of the focus of its end game...but i very much doubt pvp will be foremost in the minds of the majority of people buying it...
It's got a PVP bend because one of its heads is a Dark Age of Camelot guy that basically got this IP and is ramming a square peg through a round hole, making a single player masterpiece and trying to turn it into Camelot Electric Bugaloo.
Maybe it will be good. Maybe the PVP will even be fun (wasn't that great in Dark Age of Camelot, especially due to the stealth ganks). But it doesn't have much of a foundation to build on, especially considering almost all of its Elder Scrolls portions have been tacked on near the end of development ("you can now move items on tables!") and that CGI trailer was painfully standard issue fantasy TRIBBLE.
Hey, I liked ****. And I like the ES series, I remain hopeful. But if anything may be said about ESO it's that it has really dumb helmets.
It's fine to like game-that-can-not-be-named. I don't know if it's a good fit for Elder Scrolls. Having a clumsily-assembled trio of "why are these guys allies again?" factions all fighting over the Imperial City sounds very questionable.
Hooray, "YOLOSWAG420" is now the Emperor of Cyrodil! Hail the conquerer and his mighty band "BLAZINIT".
The same could be said of corpse runs, permadeath, brutal encumbrance rules (you could DIE in MajorMUD if you were handed too many torches), spawn camps, and other "definitive" things that are already on the decline or faded away.
Yes, yes the all mighty "hardcore" will always mourn their passing. Let them.
I'm sure it'll be big at launch. I'm equally sure it will crater afterwards, because the things that made the series such a big hit (do anything, build any character, dynamic world) are exactly the kind of things that you can't translate into an MMO.
At the end of the day, its success or failure will rest on the ability of their devs to build a good MMO; in spite of it being Elder Scrolls, rather than because of it.
Sounds a bit like STO.
And before the dogma is recited again, no, PVP is not absolutely necessary as a centerpiece or even as a priority in MMOs for them to be successful. Examples have already been given of that.
You are right in saying that broken things should of get fixed, but the problem is that sometimes the devs of various games implements what the PvP, or PvE crowd says, with some of their own tweaks, and that nice shiny armor you just got??
Now you might aswell just go into combat against the Borg in your underwear, for all the good that will do you...
Some times it's the PvP crowd that get things changed for what they think is better, but forgets that the item in question also is used a lot by the PvE crowd, or the other way around.
But most of the time it's actually a combination of suggestions from the players, and the devs themselves that makes items get nerfed, and a good deal of the time it's the devs that muck around too much, leaving us players going : "who thought that was a good change to do??"
So it's a trinity of, and let's be honest here, bad calls for changes, nerfs or other things that makes items lackluster...
And 80 man PvP slugfests aren't awesome?
Undoubtedly. I just think they're crazy for thinking a sub MMO is going to work in this day and age.
Pffffffffffffffch-hahahahaha!
My point there: Not all things that are "we did this before and did it for a long time" need to be around forever. Yeah, ****'s large pvp moments were neat for many. Thing is, it's still a very clumsy fit for Elder Scrolls, which is banking on Elder Scrolls fans to care about it.
If it was Canned Fantasy Wars Online and floated on its own merits, that'd be a different story altogether.
I have nothing to say about subs versus "free" MMOs. There is a very real problem with "free" games: griefers and cheaters can come back forever even when banned. Planetside 2 has that problem in a huge way.
I can laugh out loud in the exact same way at any and all claims of "this game NEEDS PVP or it will die" claims.
"Wyatt Earp: What makes someone like PvP, Doc? What makes them do the things they do?
Doc Holliday: A PvP'er has got a great big hole, right in the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it.
Wyatt Earp: What does he need?
Doc Holliday: Revenge.
Wyatt Earp: For what?
Doc Holliday: Bein' born."
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
Random bogus assertions are the lifeblood of Internet forums!
.
What do I win?
Even if moderate upgrades could be worked in without disrupting the rest of the game or forcing PVE equipment/power changes based upon PVP nitpicking, the "Life force of modern gaming" thing is laughably pretentious. And incorrect.
Waste of resources for a very miniscule playerbase.
Pure hyperbole.
Nonsense.
Flinging birds at pig houses is.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
In any typical developmental studio there are multiple departments and dozens of programmers. Youd be surprised at how easy it can be to divert manpower.
Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing, as there is nothing being added, merely reworks and recycles. The only resource at hand is manpower/labor, and realistically that is minimal due to the ability to work on multiple projects at the same time.
Those of you who never worked in the industry or have no real grasp of how game development is done, need to really understand that a PvP revamp would be so ridiculously cheap for this company (compared to putting the whole studio on crunch mode for yet another lockbox ship) that it would be a nearly 100 percent profit investment to them. Regardless of the size of said profit.
The best time to do said revamp would be a generic game wide bugbash (which has been needed for a while anyway). Since systems and functions would already be being looked at, adding in a couple extra hours here and there to tune them for player versus player gameplay should be a walk in the park.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I'm going to give a short disclaimer here for what I am about to say, because I warn you, it is controversial.
What I see in this thread is much less of a problem with the PVP and PVE communities and more of a general problem that exists in our society that has propagated and ingrained itself in the way that we see one another. Like it or not, I see an unwillingness to consider another person's viewpoint, as shown by a lot of scapegoating and personal attacks on both sides.
Our society I believe has taught us more and more so that "winning" an argument or getting the last word is more important than trying to cooperate to solve a problem. In this sense, there is a stark difference between debate and "word wars". Trying to hurt one another is not going to solve anything. I would point to American Congress as of late as a good example of this, but in good taste to Americans, I won't since I'm not qualified to do so since I don't live there.
Rather, I think that really the solution to this is continuous strife to consider aspects of both viewpoints.
A few things I can point to in this thread as the concerns of PVP and PVE:
PVE:
-Is mad because there is the feeling that PVPers always nerf all of the useful things
-Is frustrated because PVP is incredibly hard to get into and start, despite things like PVP boot camp.
-Finds PVP pointless because it isn't interesting.
PVP:
-Is concerned for player numbers and sad because many people often leave PVP after dabbling.
-Tired of grinding in PVE in order to obtain advantages in PVP.
-Wants more than anything in the world to see PVP succeed so that it can be a more enjoyable experience for everyone.
Looking at it like this, I don't see selfishness or hatred at all between the two, but rather a fundamental dysfunction in the game.
A few solutions to solve these problems that I would propose are:
-Making consoles / special abilities function differently for a player or an NPC.
-Removing the artificial barrier of entry by Standardizing PVP gear and invalidating reputation stats.
-Creating more maps for PVP, or use crowd sourcing like the foundry.
These are just a few of the numerous things that could be done to enhance the PVP experience for everyone so that BOTH the "majority" and "minority" are happy. In this situation, PVErs get to keep their mob busting consoles, and they can be balanced for PVP accordingly. PVP would see a lot more newcomers, since a fresh level 50 could hop right in knowing that gear and passives were more or less equal among each ship type. PVP would also get new content with arguably minimal dev art team time, since players can pick that up.
All in all, the potential for this games PVP system is definitely there, and it definitely does not have to come at the expense of PVErs.
Whew, there it was. If there are any errors, forgive me. I used google translate from French to write this.
Have a nice day.
Bwahahahahaha
Clearly, you fall into this category, if you think "Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing."
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Cryptic (and anyone else with real experience) disagrees.
But if you think it's so easy, the job openings are that way
>
Im not in the market for a job, I actually develop games for a living. Thats how I know these things. Youre such a cynic. Maybe if you knew half of what i do about the inner workings youd realize how daft you sound. Running concurrence in function auditing = zero cost. You simply rework two systems simultaneously. it really isnt hard considering they generally all revolve around the same few functions that handle everything else.
Go listen to Geko's interview, he even flat out states this. Flat out admits the only reason they havent done it yet is because the suits are constantly demanding they only work on new things. Are you really this clueless?
Whats even funnier is they have been doing this all along. You cant add new things without fixing concurrences anyway, since you get even MORE BUGS if you dont. Its all on a prioritization system of which neither you nor I are privy to.
But hey, keep laughing it up, ignorance is bliss.
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Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
In fact I think PVP'ers fear a PVP revamp more ... if in fact there is a true revamp and not just a new coat of paint .
Because IMHO if a true revamp comes to light , one that is motivated by correct intentions (meaning that the intent is to get more ppl to actually engage in PVP and see it for the fun it can really be) -- for that to take place , there can be no other choice but to put everyone on the same equal footing .
No more min-maxing .
No more 'super-special' secret builds .
No more new powers with every lockbox .
In fact , (again IMHO) -- Cryptic should embrace their "dumbed down STO" vision to the Nth degree to get every dumb joe to get out there and pew-pew .
Right now you send dumb Joe into PVP and he gets stomped (and let's not go into the list of reasons) .
If you want to sidestep that , then PVP in this game has to be simple to understand cookie cutter powers (I'd say no more then 5 powers tops , or the equal of todays Lvl 3 PVP) .
But no one wants that .
Not really .
Cryptic will loose their de-facto QA team (the PVP forums bunch) .
And the PVP forums bunch will never willingly let go of the ability to min-max and tweak and keybind their stuff to be "better" or "superior" .
And ultimately , if a real PVP revamp will come up on the horizon , the choice will be between making PVP "easy" (based on skill alone) , or "hard" continue down the road of min-maxing & reputation & unbalanced game & TRIBBLE PVE for the sake of PVP .
And this is why I don't think a true PVP revamp is coming .
Cryptic says that it "loves to learn" ?
I wonder what have they learned from their own PVEVP mission that was introduced in Neverwinter roughly 7 months ago ?