yes, because there were no "hard" video games ever before, during and after the birth of internet multiplayer "PvP"...
if you want "hardcore PvP" go play EvE...which like most PvP focused MMOs topped out at less than half a million players...
That's because most people don't want to pay for such a crappy game. I got a years subscription on it, and it was so bad I didn't even play it 6 months. You have no control over your ship, its all computer flown, the weapons are TRIBBLE, the skills take days or even weeks to upgrade before you can do anything useful, and the pvpers are more concerned with camping out on jump gates waiting for players to come through than actually finding out how good they really are. Eve, as a whole, sucks.
The currently industry standard Co-op PvP game, be it console or MMO is outselling any other genre besides sports games.
That is a ridiculous distortion. You're talking about a shooter, which is an entirely different kind of game.
Or maybe you'd like to start using Tic-Tac-Toe for PvP statistics?
The fact is that PvP-centric MMORPGs are generally failures, because PvP and RPG progression don't mix.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
This is the only point I am going to address, the rest of your back and forth with the other guy... ehh ill leave that be, but this one..
Is a flat bald faced lie. The currently industry standard Co-op PvP game, be it console or MMO is outselling any other genre besides sports games. You can go look up any number of statistics or ranking sites, any reviewer site, and so forth.
It is also very likely the reason that certain PvP centric MMOs (of which there have not been many at all actually) are doing so well even in this bleak market compared to the three purely PvE MMOs a YEAR that are failing (some less than 2 years old).
So the notion that PvP is not an industry selling point is simply false and misleading. I think you honestly know that too.
While most MMOs double cater to both crowds, and many indeed require PvE to gear for PvP, there are so many successful MMOs out there with large and healthy PvP communities that I am surprised you dont even include them.
PvP sells, and it always has. It always will (at least until such day that an AI is created that can think and react like a human can)
For as much as you try to imply how insignifant I am to your Olympian perspective, you certainly seem to bring me up a lot. :rolleyes:
Healthy communities grow. They are not artificially made. That goes for PVE and PVP crowds, and sometimes subvariants of both.
A good example of that in a game I play that is nothing but PVP is Planetside 2. The MLG "esports" types get tons of attention from the developers and have even sponsored official "professional" events. That were laughably embarassing ego-strokes to the favored teams participating. To this day the MLG enthusiasts keep trying to peddle their version of "what this game and everybody in it needs" and to an increasingly less sympathetic general community, they are dismissed more by the day due to rotten attitudes, arrogance, and generally attacking anyone that might have even had the potential of being interested.
Sound familiar? If you crawl out of your bubble for a moment, it might.
Name five PvP centric MMOs that have ever existed. Do not use Google.
Go.
How many times are you going to pull that little trick?
Are you ready to retroactively go and do that to all of your nice broad claims of why we all need more PVP?
A hint and a genuine suggestion: Drop the condescending TRIBBLE. It's one thing to be skeptical of someone's claims, but your way of putting it is downright childish. Yes yes I know how much you love the Willie Wonka meme and want to emulate it in your posts, but if you have not noticed yet, it generally doesn't persuade people except those who already agree with you.
You're a minority here, and only getting those who agree with you to agree with you isn't going to win you any positive attention.
It's called "Replayability". EQ had it in spades, but eventually the devs could not keep up-and that was/is an ENTIRELY PvE game.
like, 100%.
Actually, EQ had PvP. Several different flavors in fact.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
How many times are you going to pull that little trick?
Are you ready to retroactively go and do that to all of your nice broad claims of why we all need more PVP?
A hint and a genuine suggestion: Drop the condescending TRIBBLE. It's one thing to be skeptical of someone's claims, but your way of putting it is downright childish.
It isnt about more pvp.
It isnt about getting more people to pvp
It is about not ignoring PvP, purely because PvP sells.
Id like to add I play everything in this game, just FYI.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
talaj, when developers create games that revolve exclusively around THEIR style of gameplay, those games are inevitably both very niche, and very-short-term, regardless of whether the game is ALSO PvE OR PvP focused.
where a niche-one-style-uber-alles situation occurs, the game ends up tanking in the long run.
It's called "Replayability". EQ had it in spades, but eventually the devs could not keep up-and that was/is an ENTIRELY PvE game.
like, 100%.
EVE is entirely PvP-the solo and PvE content are negligible, ignored, and EVE is growing while other MMO's are dying.
But, see, EVE doesn't JUST cater to one style of play within it's focus.
aka there is no "One True Build" that wins everything.
when PvP players discuss "Power Creep" and "Balance" it's often in the context that the devs have gone toward a model where there is an increasing reliance on "The One True Build". (and you can't tell me you haven't seen this in the STFs!)
that "One True Build" problem may change every update, but it's always there. The Jem'Bug (Jem Hadar Attack Ship) was the "it Ship" for a long time, not just in PvP, but among the STF/PvE crowd too.
Tell the truth now, when you see a guy in a Galaxy in your STF PuG, what is the first thought that comes to mind? Or a klingon in a BoP?
Or a Raptor?
I remind you that the Ausmonauts (a fleet that does both) occasionally run what is purported to be the hardest content in the game in T1 ships. They used to also do it in Shuttles until the Developers locked that out.
you know, running CSE, in Mirandas. Succcessfully.
but PvE specialists will TRIBBLE-storm-and-rage-quit if you show up with the wrong ride, using the wrong abilities, with the wrong weapons or other layout. I've seen them do it.
I wager you have, too.
now moving on...
Beam Overload "Double Tap"-a tactic developed among the PvP crowd, this bled over to the PvE crowd, and when PVE players started using it widely, it got nerfed.
Didn't start with PvE, started in PvP.
Aux2Batt/FAW is the flavour of the month-everywhere. It recently got a fix-it was in extensive use among PvP for a LONG TIME before it became popular among PvE.
but when it did, when it became "The One True Build" for those STF time-trials people, the Developers noticed it, and the proc rates and crit rates were adjusted.
Tric Mines: another case where PvP'ers used it for months, some years, before the Developers found anything wrong with it. They only found something WRONG with it when PuGs started clearing No Win Scenario and people were blowing up Borg Cubes without doing the other steps in Cure, and Tac Cubes in thirty seconds in Infected.
Breen Cluster Torp-again, in use by the PvP community as a bread-and-butter "Kill it fast", when the spec to really, REALLY make it kill stuff fast was adopted in the PvE crowd, the Devs suddenly found a reason to change the crit mechanic to individual crits for each of those little mines, instead of having all of them crit at once...
T4 Romulan Shield heal: the Developers ignored feedback from TRIBBLE TESTING on this one, released it with a math error. PvP'ers noticed it first, but the devs didn't act until there were large numbers of PvE players who were basically playing through their grind content in 'God Mode"-as in no respawn in NWS or STF runs.
and so on.
The Developers don't even NOTICE when something is being abused in PvP, but when the spec to abuse it in PvE gets out and people start using it extensively on the grind content to speed up the grind, THEN it gets nerfed, and usually not in the way the PvP group would have suggested-instead of a minor adjustment, it gets hit with the whole-nerf-tree.
Fact; there hasn't been a Developer with the PvP portfolio since Gozer left. when a Nerf happens, it may have been noticed in PvP FIRST, but it's a good bet that what REALLY happened, is that PvE speed runs have passed a certain point, or an exploit has caused something else to break and it's suddenly important enough to address.
I suspect the last time something was addressed based on PvP feedback, was the SNB DoFFs, which had zero impact in PvE.
(SNB doesn't DO anything in STF...)
Everyone is guilty of using anecdotes to try to back up claims, myself included, but I fail to see how yet another "this pvp group is uber epic and can complete all content while doing handstands and brushing their teeth" statement is anything but aggrandizement, alienating to anyone not already in your camp. You probably know the "topper" at the water cooler at work, if you work at an office. Don't be that guy.
Making broad generalizations about how PVEers act is equally problematic as doing the same for PVPers, except for the handicap you have to contend with that there's a lot less of you, with less influence and less spending power. Simply insulting PVEers left and right and telling them how elite and enlightened and superior PVPers you know are is just as farcical as that "PC Gaming Master Race" gag going the rounds of the internet right now.
PVPers find overpowered things first. Hooray. I don't see where you're going with that except indirectly demanding more attention.
It is about not ignoring PvP, purely because PvP sells.
Id like to add I play everything in this game, just FYI.
As the old saying goes, if PVP sells, then who is buying?
I hear a similar mantra in an admittedly ALL pvp game. In that game game: "MLG MAKES MONEY." So far, SOE's little MLG experiement has been a money sinkhole and has even made an TRIBBLE of a lot of players that didn't deserve it, due to cheerleading, favoritism, and outright cheating on the part of an announcer named Jax, around War Report 25 if I recall correctly.
Simply saying "We make money!" requires substantiative evidence that it would work here. At present, it's a flavor of the month beatdown exercise, especially ground PVP (Ground PVP is so borked right now I can only assume you're only defending space since ground PVP is simply that easy to dominate with flavor builds).
You seem so happy to say "prove it" and even with condescension "name X, no google, go." Take your own medicine and stop making trickle-down-effect claims about how catering to a constantly-dissatisfied fringe group somehow benefits the rest of the playerbase.
Everyone is guilty of using anecdotes to try to back up claims, myself included, but I fail to see how yet another "this pvp group is uber epic and can complete all content while doing handstands and brushing their teeth" statement is anything but aggrandizement, alienating to anyone not already in your camp. You probably know the "topper" at the water cooler at work, if you work at an office. Don't be that guy.
Making broad generalizations about how PVEers act is equally problematic as doing the same for PVPers, except for the handicap you have to contend with that there's a lot less of you, with less influence and less spending power. Simply insulting PVEers left and right and telling them how elite and enlightened and superior PVPers you know are is just as farcical as that "PC Gaming Master Race" gag going the rounds of the internet right now.
PVPers find overpowered things first. Hooray. I don't see where you're going with that except indirectly demanding more attention.
Ya know, you just called me condescending in a previous post, but this is probably the most arrogant post I have ever read on these forums, dead serious.
You come off like youre some kind of authority here.
"majority, minority, we haz moar muny than you so we win the war"
Shut the hell up.
Not only was I making a distinctive point: That point being that no one can claim the majority of PvP centric MMOs have failed when there have been only about 8 in the history of the genre... at least in the west... of which 6 are still in operation, 4 are doing very well, and two are outperforming everyone else with EVE topping the charts.
But I was also about to make the point: PvE centric MMOs (of which we have a much larger pool of "anecdotes" to pick from) grow stale and fail at more than five times the rate of pure PvP ones.
To jump to that and give some grandiose speech about "youre wrong im right because theres so many more of us" is ludicrous. Of course there are more PvE players in a PvE centric game.
Really dude?
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
No, what is representative - and was my point - is the fact that PvP queues DO take ages (the moaning on the forums and in this thread is a byproduct of that fact), AND that carrot-on-a-stick PvPvE maps DO see more activity (and the requests for more PvPvE maps is a byproduct of that fact) - but not because people want to PvP. Ker'rat would be dead if it weren't for the fact that 1st place on the PvE objective has a chance to net you nice purples (and it's a back-to-back repeatable activity) - and a lot of the time there people avoid PvP at all (from experience).
In my list I did mention that more of these zones would be a good idea.
As I said, I don't PvP anymore, so I don't have a firm grasp of why people go in there other than to blow up other players or to test PvP skills or builds. Though it sounds like people just want risk free loot from your description. The risk should be commensurate with the reward. There is no real loss to being destroyed in PvP other than annoyance.
No, they didn't blunder a mechanic. They tried to incorporate open world PvP into a PvE-centric game via factions - the standard method of developing a background that allows for PvP to happen - and it failed big-time because of the massive amount of ongoing work that was required to balance abilities between PvE and PvP - not least because like many other PvE MMOs gear progression is integral to maintaining active gameplay. That's why Rift's PvP consists of Warfronts and Conquest, where bolstering fundamentally narrows the gap between players in differing levels of gear, and significantly dampens the power of abilities, effects of healing, CC etc.
Your description makes it sound like there was a miscalculation or lack of forethought of how they were going to integrate this new mechanic into the game and the time it would take to properly balance it all out. Not necessarily the fault of a PvP mechanic itself, just a poor implementation.
It still has no bearing on STO since NO ONE has suggested anything like open PvP, which I would be steadfastly against. PvP should be a play style choice. PvPvE zones are voluntary.
The point is that looking at it proportionately, PvP-centric MMOs have a much higher fail rate than PvE-centric ones - usually because they don't live up to expectations.
That was partly my point. The failure was not necessarily because of PvP gameplay, but due to promises not kept, or expectations not being met.
Were the PvP demographic actually of significant size, that would be a viable case. It isn't though; it's a small minority, so it becomes a case of whether revenue generated from that small minority, will actually be enough to cover the cost of, and more importantly generate a profit from, paying attention to it.
I'm taking nothing away from anybody - Cryptic will run their own numbers on whether paying any serious attention to PvP is going to be worth it or not. I'm merely stating the fact that there's plenty of readily available evidence and precedent to support the notion that their projections will be along the lines of what I'm saying here.
I didn't mean to say that was your aim. I get your points, but what you are stating is not necessarily fact, but your own conclusions, which are based on your own observations. Cryptic tends to be gun shy with hard numbers.
The PvE vs PvP discussions tend to devolve into "us" or "them" fights with no middle ground. I think there is room for some compromise.
Ya know, you just called me condescending in a previous post, but this is probably the most arrogant post I have ever read on these forums, dead serious.
You come off like youre some kind of authority here.
"majority, minority, we haz moar muny than you so we win the war"
Shut the hell up.
Not only was I making a distinctive point: That point being that no one can claim the majority of PvP centric MMOs have failed when there have been only about 8 in the history of the genre... at least in the west... of which 6 are still in operation, 4 are doing very well, and two are outperforming everyone else with EVE topping the charts.
But I was also about to make the point: PvE centric MMOs (of which we have a much larger pool of "anecdotes" to pick from) grow stale and fail at more than five times the rate of pure PvP ones.
To jump to that and give some grandiose speech about "youre wrong im right because theres so many more of us" is ludicrous. Of course there are more PvE players in a PvE centric game.
Really dude?
Whine about condescension, then be condescending. Even add Bill O'Reilly "shut up" to it for good measure. Add a Reddit warrior "Really?" at the end for effect and stir.
Living hypocrisy. Grow up.
Lucky for me and most of the playerbase, if you're the champion of your cause here, it's going nowhere and staying there.
In my list I did mention that more of these zones would be a good idea.
As I said, I don't PvP anymore, so I don't have a firm grasp of why people go in there other than to blow up other players or to test PvP skills or builds. Though it sounds like people just want risk free loot from your description. The risk should be commensurate with the reward. There is no real loss to being destroyed in PvP other than annoyance.
Your description makes it sound like there was a miscalculation or lack of forethought of how they were going to integrate this new mechanic into the game and the time it would take to properly balance it all out. Not necessarily the fault of a PvP mechanic itself, just a poor implementation.
It still has no bearing on STO since NO ONE has suggested anything like open PvP, which I would be steadfastly against. PvP should be a play style choice. PvPvE zones are voluntary.
That was partly my point. The failure was not necessarily because of PvP gameplay, but due to promises not kept, or expectations not being met.
I didn't mean to say that was your aim. I get your points, but what you are stating is not necessarily fact, but your own conclusions, which are based on your own observations. Cryptic tends to be gun shy with hard numbers.
The PvE vs PvP discussions tend to devolve into "us" or "them" fights with no middle ground. I think there is room for some compromise.
I'd say that even now some compromise is possible, but certainly not with the OP's "they fear us" mentality, nor with the contradictory elitism/victimhood thing.
"We are so elite, we find all the best builds, we break the game regularly but no one pays attention to us WAAAAAAAAH".
As the old saying goes, if PVP sells, then who is buying?
I hear a similar mantra in an admittedly ALL pvp game. In that game game: "MLG MAKES MONEY." So far, SOE's little MLG experiement has been a money sinkhole and has even made an TRIBBLE of a lot of players that didn't deserve it, due to cheerleading, favoritism, and outright cheating on the part of an announcer named Jax, around War Report 25 if I recall correctly.
Simply saying "We make money!" requires substantiative evidence that it would work here. At present, it's a flavor of the month beatdown exercise, especially ground PVP (Ground PVP is so borked right now I can only assume you're only defending space since ground PVP is simply that easy to dominate with flavor builds).
You seem so happy to say "prove it" and even with condescension "name X, no google, go." Take your own medicine and stop making trickle-down-effect claims about how catering to a constantly-dissatisfied fringe group somehow benefits the rest of the playerbase.
I cant say whether PWE could ever fix the games mechanics enough to make the PvP aspect more attractive or not. We may very well be past the point of no return where it might require a full on skill revamp and no one (myself included) wants that. Do we need it? Maybe, but it would destroy the playerbase the same way the SWG NGE did.
We need not lose the last bastion of retention for hundreds of players by ignoring it either. Yes i said hundreds, as there are a great deal more of us than you think. I only hesitate to say thousands because I cant quantify them for sure. But hundreds absolutely.
There are over 10 in our fleet alone, and we are a mostly PvE/STF fleet. Thats 10 big spenders right there. Several of which are down to the end of their game if PvP ever died.
So I ask you this, do you really think it benefits PWE/Cryptic and the community at large if the PvPers (many if not most of whom are also PvE players) to just no longer exist?
There is a saying regarding combat MMOs... once the PvP game dies, the rest follows suit. There is a lot of truth to this, historically.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Not only was I making a distinctive point: That point being that no one can claim the majority of PvP centric MMOs have failed when there have been only about 8 in the history of the genre... at least in the west... of which 6 are still in operation, 4 are doing very well, and two are outperforming everyone else with EVE topping the charts.
Prove it.
But I was also about to make the point: PvE centric MMOs (of which we have a much larger pool of "anecdotes" to pick from) grow stale and fail at more than five times the rate of pure PvP ones.
Prove it.
To jump to that and give some grandiose speech about "youre wrong im right because theres so many more of us" is ludicrous. Of course there are more PvE players in a PvE centric game.
So why, again, should a PvE-centric game waste time developing PvP?
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
firefall, world of tanks, planetside 2, tribes, and destiny (although that's not out yet and they keep trying to deny it's an mmo)
extra cookie ?
no cookie ?
edit -for some reason that game that begins with A and has 4 letters and in which everyone has wings is censored oO
Have a cookie
Now, for another cookie, how many of those games are still operating. From what youve posted I count most or all (the masked one I cant determine and one ive never heard of myself)
-edit. Do you mean A I O N? If so that is the second largest MMO behind WoW.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
There is a saying regarding combat MMOs... once the PvP game dies, the rest follows suit. There is a lot of truth to this, historically.
Prove it. No Google. Go.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
I cant say whether PWE could ever fix the games mechanics enough to make the PvP aspect more attractive or not. We may very well be past the point of no return where it might require a full on skill revamp and no one (myself included) wants that. Do we need it? Maybe, but it would destroy the playerbase the same way the SWG NGE did.
We need not lose the last bastion of retention for hundreds of players by ignoring it either. Yes i said hundreds, as there are a great deal more of us than you think. I only hesitate to say thousands because I cant quantify them for sure. But hundreds absolutely.
There are over 10 in our fleet alone, and we are a mostly PvE/STF fleet. Thats 10 big spenders right there. Several of which are down to the end of their game if PvP ever died.
So I ask you this, do you really think it benefits PWE/Cryptic and the community at large if the PvPers (many if not most of whom are also PvE players) to just no longer exist?
There is a saying regarding combat MMOs... once the PvP game dies, the rest follows suit. There is a lot of truth to this, historically.
As soon as an opinion has the word "truth" added to it, sirens blare and red lights go off.
Again, take your own medicine. Give solid examples, especially because you're peddling the "truth" thing and expecting to be taken seriously.
Here's a solid counter-example in advance: World of ********. Yes, it has PVP. Yes, it has many battlegrounds. It even has an arena. However! Even the developers, who are famously arrogant and rarely admit fault for anything, have publicly conceded it was a mistake to over-emphasize arenas and "e-sport" and to press game changes upon the PVE/casual PVP playerbase according to the needs of the arena people.
It is also very likely the reason that certain PvP centric MMOs (of which there have not been many at all actually) are doing so well even in this bleak market compared to the three purely PvE MMOs a YEAR that are failing (some less than 2 years old).
If you check into them, you'll find these PvP-centric MMOs are being bolstered by a relatively sizeable number of PvE players - not a majority for sure, but they're there nonetheless. Even EVE benefits in this respect - there's plenty of info regarding the stability of activity in non-safe areas, versus increasing activity in safe areas, which backs that up.
As you say later in your post "PvP sells" - actually I think it's the game itself that sells when it comes to MMOs. So long as there's something to do that doesn't involve PvP, the PvE MMO demographic is so huge that there are always players ready and willing to not only try it out, but stick with it. This was very apparent with both Shadowbane when it went F2P, and Darkfall Online after release - though Shadowbane's PvE was so incredibly basic it failed to retain a large number of PvE players in the long run, and Darkfall's devs have had to make a lot of changes just to hold their head above water.
While most MMOs double cater to both crowds, and many indeed require PvE to gear for PvP, there are so many successful MMOs out there with large and healthy PvP communities that I am surprised you dont even include them.
The problem with making reference to other successful MMOs with healthy PvP communities ("healthy" being - I would hedge - a relatively stable community constituting around 10-20% of the total playerbase), is that as the total size of the playerbase goes up, the break-even potential of catering to any given minority goes up. STO has (let's face it) a relatively small playerbase, therefore the break-even potential of catering to the PvP demographic is low - especially if you consider the current state that it is in and the prospective amount of work that would be required to sort it out, with any degree of success large enough to 1) satisfy the current active PvP population, 2) generate interest from at least a portion of the PvE population (without sparking a raft of complaints about being "forced" into PvP maps because that's where the "best" rewards are), 3) draw in new PvP-focused players.
He can't. He's trying very hard to be his Willy Wonka meme of smugness and pretending to know everything, but has nothing to stand on.
Look at that "have a cookie" TRIBBLE he just did. He is officially not allowed to whine about me or anyone else being condescending at this point, without me laughing out loud at him, pointing.
He can't. He's trying very hard to be his Willy Wonka meme of smugness and pretending to know everything, but has nothing to stand on.
Look at that "have a cookie" TRIBBLE he just did. He is officially not allowed to whine about me or anyone else being condescending at this point, without me laughing out loud at him, pointing.
Are you sure I cant?
Ill play this game, lets have a pyramid point counterpoint war!
Give me some time, I am going to compose a huge list of examples.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
That was partly my point. The failure was not necessarily because of PvP gameplay, but due to promises not kept, or expectations not being met.
PVP MMOs fail for the following reasons:
developers overestimate demand based on noise
a new game is developed to pander to all their apparent desires.
hype builds prior to the games release and prospective players taunt their existing games devs and denizens about how much better their new game will be.
game launches
players still die
players complain about dying
a new game is developed to pander to all their apparent desires.
hype builds prior to the games release and prospective players taunt their existing games devs and denizens about how much better their new game will be.
players leave old game.
old game "dies" except for a few die hards who think its the greatest game ever.
repeat ad nauseum.
the problem with trying to make a game for the average MMO pvper can be summed up entirely with a sentence i once read in the chat box of the MMO "World of Tanks"...
an' it goes a lil somethin'' like this:
"if the game was fair and balanced i'd win ever match"
SWG - Star Wars Galaxies, SOE - 2003 - 2011. I played this game for the whole eight years. Sandbox MMO, quite fun in the early stages. Had a very solid PvP playerbase, it even had build in ranking systems via the FRS (early) and GCW (late)
After the NGE and resulting loss of players, the PvE aspect of the game became laughably easy, even with the addition of the Heroics system in its attempt to copy WOW.
The PvP community continued on until early 2010 when some broad mechanics changes forced cookie cutter builds to become the normal mainstay. broken buffs, the move towards buff stacking, as well as the general malaise surrounding the fact that actual PvP content had been ignored for years caused a massive exodus to the new shiny on the street League of Legends. I remember whole PvP guilds leaving for that game.
Shortly after the Exodus of the PvP community, the game went into total maintenance mode and very little was added. A few bug patches, some minor smatters of content, but anyone that played knows that 2010/2011 were lean to nothing in terms of anything new at all.
The game sunset in the shadow of the looming SWTOR with barely 1/10th if its initial population. Some due to management error, the rest due to bleeding of what was an extremely large PvP community even in a PvE game.
Thats one, next post will have another.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
talaj, when developers create games that revolve exclusively around THEIR style of gameplay, those games are inevitably both very niche, and very-short-term, regardless of whether the game is ALSO PvE OR PvP focused.
I was talking about developers creating a game revolving around PvP gameplay, not their style of gameplay - which by virtue of the fact that the PvP demographic is a niche market, does make them niche, but isn't the point.
where a niche-one-style-uber-alles situation occurs, the game ends up tanking in the long run.
I wouldn't say that at all. As I've said before developers do pay lip service to PvP in order to hook part of that niche demographic. But to commit any serious time and resources to developing PvP post-release? That's another matter - that's why the same issues of PvP stagnation, imbalance, etc, have been, are, and will be brought up time and again across MMOs.
EVE is entirely PvP-the solo and PvE content are negligible, ignored, and EVE is growing while other MMO's are dying.
Beyond being the only really notable exception, EVE does benefit from its fair share of PvE-focused players.
But, see, EVE doesn't JUST cater to one style of play within it's focus.
You're quite right - EVE caters to farmers as a byproduct of its design (and there are lots of farmers out there!).
when PvP players discuss "Power Creep" and "Balance" it's often in the context that the devs have gone toward a model where there is an increasing reliance on "The One True Build". (and you can't tell me you haven't seen this in the STFs!)
that "One True Build" problem may change every update, but it's always there. The Jem'Bug (Jem Hadar Attack Ship) was the "it Ship" for a long time, not just in PvP, but among the STF/PvE crowd too.
Beyond the fact that power creep is a significant part of STO's revenue generation mechanic - people aren't going to shell out for lockbox keys, for the low chance of getting a ship that's no better than what's already available - that's not really the issue at hand.
The Developers don't even NOTICE when something is being abused in PvP, but when the spec to abuse it in PvE gets out and people start using it extensively on the grind content to speed up the grind, THEN it gets nerfed, and usually not in the way the PvP group would have suggested-instead of a minor adjustment, it gets hit with the whole-nerf-tree.
That's really more of a justification for just how small STO's PvP demographic is, I would say?
I think I'm done for today. I've spent far, far too long on this thread alone and I have STO dailies to do, and two BGs to win in WoW on my latest character that's on the legendary cloak chain!
Ai on - The second largest MMO in the world (second only to WoW globally). The game is fundamentally a PvP game that blends PvP and PvE together. I have never played this one, but I have friends that have, and they say its a very solid game, if a bit too grindy... and for me I dont like fantasy games in general (lotro is the exception to this)
So despite being a Korean grinder and being mostly PvP centric, and recently going to a Free to Play model, it is the second largest MMO in the world. As far as i have heard, it isnt going anywhere anytime soon. In this regard we have an example of a PvP/PvE blended game that is doing well, it is however, marketed as being PvP centric.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Elder Scrolls Online - Due to release in early 2014, currently in Closed Beta (I got to beta test it a couple weekends ago)
One of the lynchpins of this game is the fact they are touting massive PvP battles in zones that will hold literally hundreds of players. There are PvE elements, naturally, but this game is being developed having an extremely robust PvP centered endgame. And midgame to some extent, since the whole game is focused around a three sided war.
Only time will tell if it does well, but from testing, once they hammer the bugs this game is going to be very very solid. That is my opinion of course, but we shall see if the next PvP centric game makes it or not.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Now, for another cookie, how many of those games are still operating. From what youve posted I count most or all (the masked one I cant determine and one ive never heard of myself)
-edit. Do you mean A I O N? If so that is the second largest MMO behind WoW.
conan, warhammer, and fallen earth are operating but almost dead....especially fallen earth which was basically the eve of ground combat....there probably less than 1000 people by the fans own estimation playing fallen earth atm...they are literally expecting the switch to be thrown any day now.
i am disinclined to count the shooter mmos tbh as they have cross over appeal from other an other genre and are much easier to balance and play casually treating them just like a larger scale FPS...in fact when it comes to the likes of world of tanks i have said many times this could be a mod for any shooter...it may technically be an mmo but in essence all it basically does its FPS 15 a side team deathmatch with a lobby...
LOTRO - Still in service. This game has a unique PvP system that is unlocked either by subscription, or grinding a character to endgame. The flaw however is the lack of balance in the combat. This game is starting to suffer from serious stagnation in the PvE releases, with the last two major expansions being very lackluster. The PvP community is beginning to dwindle as well, and servers that were once very solid are quickly becoming ghost towns.
Fortunately Brandywine (my main server, ironically the RP server) is still relatively strong, but even it is starting to show signs of a drying up endgame, there hasnt been any maintenance of its PvP game in some time. Things that have been broken for years are remaining so, and that community is pretty fed up.
I dont expect this game to last much longer, but weirder things have happened (like EQ1 still going despite being down to like 40k subs or something)
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Ill play this game, lets have a pyramid point counterpoint war!
Give me some time, I am going to compose a huge list of examples.
Better yet, don't.
No one would be impressed but you, since you're still stacking your house of cards in favor of broad generalizations like "This game will die without the PVPers".
You're playing a special game with yourself that you've set the rules for yourself, and count the points and declare yourself the winner in. It's an exercise in narcissism that serves no purpose here.
I'll say it again. No one will be impressed but you. You will persuade no one who didn't already agree with you, and waste your own time.
Comments
That's because most people don't want to pay for such a crappy game. I got a years subscription on it, and it was so bad I didn't even play it 6 months. You have no control over your ship, its all computer flown, the weapons are TRIBBLE, the skills take days or even weeks to upgrade before you can do anything useful, and the pvpers are more concerned with camping out on jump gates waiting for players to come through than actually finding out how good they really are. Eve, as a whole, sucks.
That is a ridiculous distortion. You're talking about a shooter, which is an entirely different kind of game.
Or maybe you'd like to start using Tic-Tac-Toe for PvP statistics?
The fact is that PvP-centric MMORPGs are generally failures, because PvP and RPG progression don't mix.
Name five PvP centric MMOs that have ever existed. Do not use Google.
Go.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
For as much as you try to imply how insignifant I am to your Olympian perspective, you certainly seem to bring me up a lot. :rolleyes:
Healthy communities grow. They are not artificially made. That goes for PVE and PVP crowds, and sometimes subvariants of both.
A good example of that in a game I play that is nothing but PVP is Planetside 2. The MLG "esports" types get tons of attention from the developers and have even sponsored official "professional" events. That were laughably embarassing ego-strokes to the favored teams participating. To this day the MLG enthusiasts keep trying to peddle their version of "what this game and everybody in it needs" and to an increasingly less sympathetic general community, they are dismissed more by the day due to rotten attitudes, arrogance, and generally attacking anyone that might have even had the potential of being interested.
Sound familiar? If you crawl out of your bubble for a moment, it might.
How many times are you going to pull that little trick?
Are you ready to retroactively go and do that to all of your nice broad claims of why we all need more PVP?
A hint and a genuine suggestion: Drop the condescending TRIBBLE. It's one thing to be skeptical of someone's claims, but your way of putting it is downright childish. Yes yes I know how much you love the Willie Wonka meme and want to emulate it in your posts, but if you have not noticed yet, it generally doesn't persuade people except those who already agree with you.
You're a minority here, and only getting those who agree with you to agree with you isn't going to win you any positive attention.
Actually, EQ had PvP. Several different flavors in fact.
It isnt about more pvp.
It isnt about getting more people to pvp
It is about not ignoring PvP, purely because PvP sells.
Id like to add I play everything in this game, just FYI.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Everyone is guilty of using anecdotes to try to back up claims, myself included, but I fail to see how yet another "this pvp group is uber epic and can complete all content while doing handstands and brushing their teeth" statement is anything but aggrandizement, alienating to anyone not already in your camp. You probably know the "topper" at the water cooler at work, if you work at an office. Don't be that guy.
Making broad generalizations about how PVEers act is equally problematic as doing the same for PVPers, except for the handicap you have to contend with that there's a lot less of you, with less influence and less spending power. Simply insulting PVEers left and right and telling them how elite and enlightened and superior PVPers you know are is just as farcical as that "PC Gaming Master Race" gag going the rounds of the internet right now.
PVPers find overpowered things first. Hooray. I don't see where you're going with that except indirectly demanding more attention.
As the old saying goes, if PVP sells, then who is buying?
I hear a similar mantra in an admittedly ALL pvp game. In that game game: "MLG MAKES MONEY." So far, SOE's little MLG experiement has been a money sinkhole and has even made an TRIBBLE of a lot of players that didn't deserve it, due to cheerleading, favoritism, and outright cheating on the part of an announcer named Jax, around War Report 25 if I recall correctly.
Simply saying "We make money!" requires substantiative evidence that it would work here. At present, it's a flavor of the month beatdown exercise, especially ground PVP (Ground PVP is so borked right now I can only assume you're only defending space since ground PVP is simply that easy to dominate with flavor builds).
You seem so happy to say "prove it" and even with condescension "name X, no google, go." Take your own medicine and stop making trickle-down-effect claims about how catering to a constantly-dissatisfied fringe group somehow benefits the rest of the playerbase.
Ya know, you just called me condescending in a previous post, but this is probably the most arrogant post I have ever read on these forums, dead serious.
You come off like youre some kind of authority here.
"majority, minority, we haz moar muny than you so we win the war"
Shut the hell up.
Not only was I making a distinctive point: That point being that no one can claim the majority of PvP centric MMOs have failed when there have been only about 8 in the history of the genre... at least in the west... of which 6 are still in operation, 4 are doing very well, and two are outperforming everyone else with EVE topping the charts.
But I was also about to make the point: PvE centric MMOs (of which we have a much larger pool of "anecdotes" to pick from) grow stale and fail at more than five times the rate of pure PvP ones.
To jump to that and give some grandiose speech about "youre wrong im right because theres so many more of us" is ludicrous. Of course there are more PvE players in a PvE centric game.
Really dude?
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
do i get a cookie ?
could probably list more if i thought about it
how about shooter only ones ?
firefall, world of tanks, planetside 2, tribes, and destiny (although that's not out yet and they keep trying to deny it's an mmo)
extra cookie ?
no cookie ?
edit -for some reason that game that begins with A and has 4 letters and in which everyone has wings is censored oO
In my list I did mention that more of these zones would be a good idea.
As I said, I don't PvP anymore, so I don't have a firm grasp of why people go in there other than to blow up other players or to test PvP skills or builds. Though it sounds like people just want risk free loot from your description. The risk should be commensurate with the reward. There is no real loss to being destroyed in PvP other than annoyance.
Your description makes it sound like there was a miscalculation or lack of forethought of how they were going to integrate this new mechanic into the game and the time it would take to properly balance it all out. Not necessarily the fault of a PvP mechanic itself, just a poor implementation.
It still has no bearing on STO since NO ONE has suggested anything like open PvP, which I would be steadfastly against. PvP should be a play style choice. PvPvE zones are voluntary.
That was partly my point. The failure was not necessarily because of PvP gameplay, but due to promises not kept, or expectations not being met.
I didn't mean to say that was your aim. I get your points, but what you are stating is not necessarily fact, but your own conclusions, which are based on your own observations. Cryptic tends to be gun shy with hard numbers.
The PvE vs PvP discussions tend to devolve into "us" or "them" fights with no middle ground. I think there is room for some compromise.
Whine about condescension, then be condescending. Even add Bill O'Reilly "shut up" to it for good measure. Add a Reddit warrior "Really?" at the end for effect and stir.
Living hypocrisy. Grow up.
Lucky for me and most of the playerbase, if you're the champion of your cause here, it's going nowhere and staying there.
I'd say that even now some compromise is possible, but certainly not with the OP's "they fear us" mentality, nor with the contradictory elitism/victimhood thing.
"We are so elite, we find all the best builds, we break the game regularly but no one pays attention to us WAAAAAAAAH".
It's repulsive.
I cant say whether PWE could ever fix the games mechanics enough to make the PvP aspect more attractive or not. We may very well be past the point of no return where it might require a full on skill revamp and no one (myself included) wants that. Do we need it? Maybe, but it would destroy the playerbase the same way the SWG NGE did.
We need not lose the last bastion of retention for hundreds of players by ignoring it either. Yes i said hundreds, as there are a great deal more of us than you think. I only hesitate to say thousands because I cant quantify them for sure. But hundreds absolutely.
There are over 10 in our fleet alone, and we are a mostly PvE/STF fleet. Thats 10 big spenders right there. Several of which are down to the end of their game if PvP ever died.
So I ask you this, do you really think it benefits PWE/Cryptic and the community at large if the PvPers (many if not most of whom are also PvE players) to just no longer exist?
There is a saying regarding combat MMOs... once the PvP game dies, the rest follows suit. There is a lot of truth to this, historically.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Prove it.
Prove it.
So why, again, should a PvE-centric game waste time developing PvP?
Have a cookie
Now, for another cookie, how many of those games are still operating. From what youve posted I count most or all (the masked one I cant determine and one ive never heard of myself)
-edit. Do you mean A I O N? If so that is the second largest MMO behind WoW.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Prove it. No Google. Go.
As soon as an opinion has the word "truth" added to it, sirens blare and red lights go off.
Again, take your own medicine. Give solid examples, especially because you're peddling the "truth" thing and expecting to be taken seriously.
Here's a solid counter-example in advance: World of ********. Yes, it has PVP. Yes, it has many battlegrounds. It even has an arena. However! Even the developers, who are famously arrogant and rarely admit fault for anything, have publicly conceded it was a mistake to over-emphasize arenas and "e-sport" and to press game changes upon the PVE/casual PVP playerbase according to the needs of the arena people.
If you check into them, you'll find these PvP-centric MMOs are being bolstered by a relatively sizeable number of PvE players - not a majority for sure, but they're there nonetheless. Even EVE benefits in this respect - there's plenty of info regarding the stability of activity in non-safe areas, versus increasing activity in safe areas, which backs that up.
As you say later in your post "PvP sells" - actually I think it's the game itself that sells when it comes to MMOs. So long as there's something to do that doesn't involve PvP, the PvE MMO demographic is so huge that there are always players ready and willing to not only try it out, but stick with it. This was very apparent with both Shadowbane when it went F2P, and Darkfall Online after release - though Shadowbane's PvE was so incredibly basic it failed to retain a large number of PvE players in the long run, and Darkfall's devs have had to make a lot of changes just to hold their head above water.
The problem with making reference to other successful MMOs with healthy PvP communities ("healthy" being - I would hedge - a relatively stable community constituting around 10-20% of the total playerbase), is that as the total size of the playerbase goes up, the break-even potential of catering to any given minority goes up. STO has (let's face it) a relatively small playerbase, therefore the break-even potential of catering to the PvP demographic is low - especially if you consider the current state that it is in and the prospective amount of work that would be required to sort it out, with any degree of success large enough to 1) satisfy the current active PvP population, 2) generate interest from at least a portion of the PvE population (without sparking a raft of complaints about being "forced" into PvP maps because that's where the "best" rewards are), 3) draw in new PvP-focused players.
He can't. He's trying very hard to be his Willy Wonka meme of smugness and pretending to know everything, but has nothing to stand on.
Look at that "have a cookie" TRIBBLE he just did. He is officially not allowed to whine about me or anyone else being condescending at this point, without me laughing out loud at him, pointing.
Are you sure I cant?
Ill play this game, lets have a pyramid point counterpoint war!
Give me some time, I am going to compose a huge list of examples.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
PVP MMOs fail for the following reasons:
developers overestimate demand based on noise
a new game is developed to pander to all their apparent desires.
hype builds prior to the games release and prospective players taunt their existing games devs and denizens about how much better their new game will be.
game launches
players still die
players complain about dying
a new game is developed to pander to all their apparent desires.
hype builds prior to the games release and prospective players taunt their existing games devs and denizens about how much better their new game will be.
players leave old game.
old game "dies" except for a few die hards who think its the greatest game ever.
repeat ad nauseum.
the problem with trying to make a game for the average MMO pvper can be summed up entirely with a sentence i once read in the chat box of the MMO "World of Tanks"...
an' it goes a lil somethin'' like this:
"if the game was fair and balanced i'd win ever match"
After the NGE and resulting loss of players, the PvE aspect of the game became laughably easy, even with the addition of the Heroics system in its attempt to copy WOW.
The PvP community continued on until early 2010 when some broad mechanics changes forced cookie cutter builds to become the normal mainstay. broken buffs, the move towards buff stacking, as well as the general malaise surrounding the fact that actual PvP content had been ignored for years caused a massive exodus to the new shiny on the street League of Legends. I remember whole PvP guilds leaving for that game.
Shortly after the Exodus of the PvP community, the game went into total maintenance mode and very little was added. A few bug patches, some minor smatters of content, but anyone that played knows that 2010/2011 were lean to nothing in terms of anything new at all.
The game sunset in the shadow of the looming SWTOR with barely 1/10th if its initial population. Some due to management error, the rest due to bleeding of what was an extremely large PvP community even in a PvE game.
Thats one, next post will have another.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I was talking about developers creating a game revolving around PvP gameplay, not their style of gameplay - which by virtue of the fact that the PvP demographic is a niche market, does make them niche, but isn't the point.
I wouldn't say that at all. As I've said before developers do pay lip service to PvP in order to hook part of that niche demographic. But to commit any serious time and resources to developing PvP post-release? That's another matter - that's why the same issues of PvP stagnation, imbalance, etc, have been, are, and will be brought up time and again across MMOs.
Beyond being the only really notable exception, EVE does benefit from its fair share of PvE-focused players.
You're quite right - EVE caters to farmers as a byproduct of its design (and there are lots of farmers out there!).
Beyond the fact that power creep is a significant part of STO's revenue generation mechanic - people aren't going to shell out for lockbox keys, for the low chance of getting a ship that's no better than what's already available - that's not really the issue at hand.
That's really more of a justification for just how small STO's PvP demographic is, I would say?
I think I'm done for today. I've spent far, far too long on this thread alone and I have STO dailies to do, and two BGs to win in WoW on my latest character that's on the legendary cloak chain!
So despite being a Korean grinder and being mostly PvP centric, and recently going to a Free to Play model, it is the second largest MMO in the world. As far as i have heard, it isnt going anywhere anytime soon. In this regard we have an example of a PvP/PvE blended game that is doing well, it is however, marketed as being PvP centric.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
One of the lynchpins of this game is the fact they are touting massive PvP battles in zones that will hold literally hundreds of players. There are PvE elements, naturally, but this game is being developed having an extremely robust PvP centered endgame. And midgame to some extent, since the whole game is focused around a three sided war.
Only time will tell if it does well, but from testing, once they hammer the bugs this game is going to be very very solid. That is my opinion of course, but we shall see if the next PvP centric game makes it or not.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
i am disinclined to count the shooter mmos tbh as they have cross over appeal from other an other genre and are much easier to balance and play casually treating them just like a larger scale FPS...in fact when it comes to the likes of world of tanks i have said many times this could be a mod for any shooter...it may technically be an mmo but in essence all it basically does its FPS 15 a side team deathmatch with a lobby...
Fortunately Brandywine (my main server, ironically the RP server) is still relatively strong, but even it is starting to show signs of a drying up endgame, there hasnt been any maintenance of its PvP game in some time. Things that have been broken for years are remaining so, and that community is pretty fed up.
I dont expect this game to last much longer, but weirder things have happened (like EQ1 still going despite being down to like 40k subs or something)
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Better yet, don't.
No one would be impressed but you, since you're still stacking your house of cards in favor of broad generalizations like "This game will die without the PVPers".
You're playing a special game with yourself that you've set the rules for yourself, and count the points and declare yourself the winner in. It's an exercise in narcissism that serves no purpose here.
I'll say it again. No one will be impressed but you. You will persuade no one who didn't already agree with you, and waste your own time.