Your right Conn doffs aren't Rng was thinking of something else I guess... still they replace 2 cond doffs and 3 dmg control doffs... and do it better... never mind all the other cool downs.
If an aux to bat cruiser doesn't have hull heals I would have to wonder how that could possibly be.
Hazards every 25s ? Is that not a hull heal.
As I was saying... BEST self tank in the game.
If you mean they don't have Aux to Sif... no they don't but cruisers don't take aux to sif to tank with they take that to heal team mates with.
Engi team... yes every easy to keep a copy of engi team around along with the tac team... you just get to choose which one makes sense every 15s on an aux to bat build. (causes its like having 2 of each. lol)
Really anyone that doesn't see aux to bat cruisers being the best self tanking highest dps cruisers in the game... must have played against some really really weak ones.
PS... I am not saying there are not ways to beat them... but lets all get a little real... there is NO way to counter a team with 2-3 good aux to bat cruisers on them... unless you bring 2 very good healers with. If you don't you won't live long enough to counter squat.
You're supposed to be having difficulties facing competent captains. Your victory and loss will always depend how you engage them, you said so yourself. I'm willing to concede that it's a lot harder to kill a2b boats with warp core doff (cleanser variant).
The point is... most setups have MULTIPLE ways to counter them.
A team with 2 solid high dps aux to bat boats. DO NOT have multiple ways to counter. YOU are going to have to bring 2 healers... cross healing is NOT going to allow you to stay in range of those guys for any more then 10s tops.
Seeing as I said lets get real in my last post.... let me say it again.
Lets forget PvP completely for min... lets not think about game meta and premade makeups.
Just go look at pve you don't need to look any further.
When a cruiser in a STF can parse 30k+ consistant like. (yes I understand some of that dmg is unfocused) something is very wrong in general.
I have been on teams that have smashed Infected at a pace I KNOW for sure was not intended. There is no way the devs though hmmm... what could we do that would allow people to smash all 4 current STFs in under 10min total ?
We all know that is broken. I mean come on I have played with guys where we could complete all 4 before the optional timer would have expired on the first one. lmao
I think you guys faced a2b premades (or opvp made)
Faced??
Weare those teams, we've been melting people with them.:P
I like A2B. I have had about 6 different top end builds based on it at one point or another.
So that's why I feel very comfortable saying:
A2B + Tech DOFfs are clearly superior to every other Cool Down DOFF option available and in many cases superior to several different sets of cooldown DOFFs combined.
Weare those teams, we've been melting people with them.:P
lol that's funny.
Indeed most of are not saying things are messed up because we can't afford the doffs or the gear or something silly. If I'm point out something broken myself its not because I have SEEN it... its because I have used it.
I don't know why people keep fighting with cool downs. Tactics/strategy, you need to trick people into using up their heals before delivering the killing blow.
Even if you 'trick' a cruiser in using all its heals there is only an extremely short window until the cruiser can use all powers again (as antoniosalieri pointed out). The only way to defeat these builds currently is to completely vaporize them within 1-3 seconds. However only few ships and even less players are capable of doing that, while an Aux2Bat-FAW-DEM-RSP-Marion-FabricationEng cruiser requires minimal effort for insane effectiveness.
I sort of agree with ultimatum about the overcapping. I think there's something out of line there, I think if it was either reduced for beams or better yet actually worked as intended for cannons you might see the damage balancing out a bit more for escorts and cruisers.
As VD said, says and would continue to say and Ultimatum sort of said, I don't think it's 1 specific thing, it's the combination of things. I like the technicians and they're really good at giving an offensive push for cruisers. Too good? Maybe but then it's probably more to do with the high up time on RSP coupled with the high uptime on tactical abilities giving them a spammable "oh s***" button and enough sting to boot.
I certainly think it's a good thing cruisers are better, unfortunately it's made the hybrids FAR more powerful than they should be and really, look at all the builds, look at all the ships and the DPS numbers. Is it the true blue cruisers going nuts with the DPS or is it the hybrids like the scimitar, heavy escort carriers and destroyers etc?
I won't reveal what Ultimatum's build is but needless to say what I could see of it (if it was a PvP build) only the ships with commander tactical could really get that level of trolololololol damage.
Also...whatever happened to the sci ships trying to do good damage ='(
AtB builds are not the best tanks. FAR from it. about half of their survivability comes from their offense, keeping the other guy defensive, not their ability to out heal incoming damage. thats what tanking is here, keeping ahead of incoming damage by healing. sure, they can put up a nearly uncompromised defense at first, but aux batts have a long cooldown, your only gonna get 1 really strong HE and TSS. after that you got to rely on good uptime but low magnitude heals, resist, RSP and evasion to survive, because these ships have inferior damage mitigation wile that aux batt is cooling down. they are very vulnerable to spike at this point, they cant spike heal with ~1000/tic HEs, your getting ~300/tic HEs.
if your going all out for offense, your running tet glider with console slots full of crit bosters and flow caps, not the borg set and armor. if your AtB cruiser is running EPtW3, dont kid your self, its a glass canon, does it even have RSP? it wont have EPtS3, and on the tac cruisers with a LTC tac, its only got 1 LTC eng power, and your using the commander spot for DEM right?
a good heal boat cruiser used as a heal boat has 2 or 3 times the damage mitigation, easy. be honest, whats gonna hold up under long term fire better, your tac cruiser or something like renim's ody? its not even close.
Even if you 'trick' a cruiser in using all its heals there is only an extremely short window until the cruiser can use all powers again (as antoniosalieri pointed out).
Or they just get cross-healing.
It's a thing that only makes sense to a PUG player, the idea that you can "trick a cruiser" out of his heals. Can you trick my entire team out of all of our heals?
It's not like standard team-based Escort builds usually come loaded with a ton of heals, they are damage dealers > that is the ship's focus.
A2B + Tech DOFfs are clearly superior to every other Cool Down DOFF option available and in many cases superior to several different sets of cooldown DOFFs combined.
Yeah, that's not debatable. All of the other CD reduction stuff, and all of the other aux-to-whatever stuff too, its all very narowly focused, but then AtB is like "hi! here's two of everything!"
OTOH its also the only one that has an active penalty, of draining your Aux power. Too bad most fed ships are immune to subystem targeting, or you could pop the Aux power and break the rhythm.
Game is not balanced at all. Everything is setup for getting through the prebuilt content faster, not in any kind of balanced way, just faster. Romulan ships with 5 weapons and 5 tac consoles, the same faction that has buffed CrtH, the only way that makes sense is if nobody cares.
AtB builds are not the best tanks. FAR from it. about half of their survivability comes from their offense, keeping the other guy defensive, not their ability to out heal incoming damage. thats what tanking is here, keeping ahead of incoming damage by healing. sure, they can put up a nearly uncompromised defense at first, but aux batts have a long cooldown, your only gonna get 1 really strong HE and TSS. after that you got to rely on good uptime but low magnitude heals, resist, RSP and evasion to survive, because these ships have inferior damage mitigation wile that aux batt is cooling down. they are very vulnerable to spike at this point, they cant spike heal with ~1000/tic HEs, your getting ~300/tic HEs.
if your going all out for offense, your running tet glider with console slots full of crit bosters and flow caps, not the borg set and armor. if your AtB cruiser is running EPtW3, dont kid your self, its a glass canon, does it even have RSP? it wont have EPtS3, and on the tac cruisers with a LTC tac, its only got 1 LTC eng power, and your using the commander spot for DEM right?
a good heal boat cruiser used as a heal boat has 2 or 3 times the damage mitigation, easy. be honest, whats gonna hold up under long term fire better, your tac cruiser or something like renim's ody? its not even close.
I am hearing low magnitude aux healing again... and I am laughing again... I am not talking about healing teams here... I am talking about poping your hazards off every 25s at 125 aux ... wth would you not be doing it exactly that way.
Do you really feel squishy in your aux to bat crusiers Dont ? I doubt you do.
To be honest, a2b is not truly overpowered yet. It can still be easily interfered with. My only fear at the moment is the effect of having 6 doffs in the upcoming season. I have a build in mind that might make a2b a perfect build but we never know. Theory is very different than practice.
I would agree with you if Bort was to admit he made a mistake moving aux to bat off of the ETPx global.
Moving it to the aux to sif global instead... has destroyed what ever balance there was in the build.
It is allowing people to keep things like EPTW 3 up 100% of the time on there super a2b pve builds... and its allowing them to keep epts up on there pvp builds.
They should have to choose like we did before. (previously you could keep one EPTx at global... but not 2)
Before the change a2b was a niche build that could work in pvp with a ton of support.
Now its the standard PvE build... and lets face it a pretty standard PvP build as well.
Of course it can be countered... double tap was possible to counter as well... The point is the window of counter doesn't really fit the magnitude of the buff.
I wonder what a2b cruisers (scimitars included) can do against an all cloaking team on teamspeak, 3 sci (dhelan) 2 tacs (hafeh, mogai or t'varo) using hit and run tactics. Sci debuffs, tac delivers the damage, no single target, hitting at least 2 people at once. Teamwork is OP!!
They would most likely slap the cloaking team around like wet noodles.
Part of the thing most people that like cloak hate about faw... is decloaking and loosing half your hull before your shielding kicks in. lol
I saw it in the past couple of weeks. People really don't know how to decloak at the most opportune time :eek:. Seriously, why would you engage during an alpha boosted fawing fedball????
I can see you have never flown with a full cloaking team. lol
If people aren't to familier I am one of the former leaders of a klink fleet that was well known for doing what you are suggesting.
If everyone is cloaked... when would be an opportune time ?
They won't be clicking faw when there are no targets. lol
If you decloak one at a time you will get smoked.
The only way to do it is to all declaok together... at which time the other team engages there aoe junk.
You will get a kill almost 100% of the time indeed... good luck escaping however with out giving them 2 kills back.
Its a wonderful way to loose a lot of matches with scores like 15 7
That's the problem in pvp right now, people fight with cool downs. No tactic, diversions or strategy in mind. They just decloak expecting to get a kill every time... It really can't be beyond people's ability to do feign attacks, especially for cloakers. On my kdf toon I enjoyed activating pattern omega while cloaked, within 10km and watch my target use up rsp for instance lol :P. What happens if a full cloaked team does the same?
If you decloak in the middle of faw fedball you will die... Every single time... So don't!
Don't decloak one at a time, use tactics like tac and sci decloak together when an apportunity presents itself... Vape!!! Run away!
That isn't enough to take on a team of faw boats... waiting for a decloak to pop there faws. lol
Yes you can play around with kids in Kerrat have fun with that... a real team is going to have at least one sci ship... have fun playing around when you get declaoked and that team throws up a few faws .... while the other 4 guys on your team are NOT providing targets for the faw beams.
Yes a group of cloakers is going to roll 99% of the fed pugs even if there is a guy around with super faw.
If you are however facing an actual fed team... that is in a loose 8k ball... is waiting to support and fight back... there is NO WAY a cloak team is going to come out on top with out dragging the match to 1 hour+ most of which will be no one doing anything accept circle on both sides. It is oh such fun game play.
You threw it out there that a team of cloakers could counter a team build around faw... I'm sorry your wrong. They can't they will get murdered.
a single FAW ship in the pug queues is mince meat for the opposing tram, can't really do enough spike damage nor enought to kill one enemy. Sure you might have millions on the scoreboard, but how much help are you on the team? when the others will instantly target you once you decloak.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
That's the problem in pvp right now, people fight with cool downs. No tactic, diversions or strategy in mind. They just decloak expecting to get a kill every time... It really can't be beyond people's ability to do feign attacks, especially for cloakers. On my kdf toon I enjoyed activating pattern omega while cloaked, within 10km and watch my target use up rsp for instance lol :P. What happens if a full cloaked team does the same?
If you decloak in the middle of faw fedball you will die... Every single time... So don't!
Don't decloak one at a time, use tactics like tac and sci decloak together when an apportunity presents itself... Vape!!! Run away!
You aren't listening to what he is saying. If your entire team is cloaked there is no ideal time to go in because the enemy team will be cycling defensive buffs while keeping damage buffs, counters, and "get out of jail free cards" at the ready. You go in one at a time, and you instantly die. You go in two at a time like you're suggesting you instantly die two at a time. You go in all at once and you'll probably get some kills, but for every kill you'll tally up two deaths.
You can think of it like rock paper scissors. A full cloak alpha team has little chance against a proper FAW ball. On the other hand, a team loaded up with enough healing to keep up with FAW ball type damage will always beat it assuming that the FAW ball has completely sacrificed burst damage in order to maximize DPS. A full decloak alpha team can be very good against such a heal heavy team because despite theoretically having enough healing to counter the alpha it is difficult to do so quickly enough -- even if the reflexes are there you still have to deal with activation time and UI lag. Lastly, it will be easier for cloakers to escape from a heal focused team than one focused on damage.
The moral of the story is that completely lopsided team comps tend to have weaknesses. The key is to find the proper balance.
Comments
If an aux to bat cruiser doesn't have hull heals I would have to wonder how that could possibly be.
Hazards every 25s ? Is that not a hull heal.
As I was saying... BEST self tank in the game.
If you mean they don't have Aux to Sif... no they don't but cruisers don't take aux to sif to tank with they take that to heal team mates with.
Engi team... yes every easy to keep a copy of engi team around along with the tac team... you just get to choose which one makes sense every 15s on an aux to bat build. (causes its like having 2 of each. lol)
Really anyone that doesn't see aux to bat cruisers being the best self tanking highest dps cruisers in the game... must have played against some really really weak ones.
PS... I am not saying there are not ways to beat them... but lets all get a little real... there is NO way to counter a team with 2-3 good aux to bat cruisers on them... unless you bring 2 very good healers with. If you don't you won't live long enough to counter squat.
True but TT DOFFs are CONN, AP DOFFs are CONN.
Limit is 3 CONN.
Result?
You can not run both TT and AP at global with just CONN DOFFs.
So then you would need DMG Control for your EPTx
And you'd want 1 Marion.
And you might need a few Energy Weapons Officers so you could have BFAW CD reduction depending on available tac slots.
Ok, and then add 2x RSP for equivalent coverage and also 2x DEM for highest up-time.
No Hull heals?
ET can be at global, you can use it while RSP is up because you don't need TT while RSP is up.
HE + RMC or Aux batt or Enhanced Plasma Manifold or Just timing between Aux to batts (or all of these options combined).
His points still stand.
The point is... most setups have MULTIPLE ways to counter them.
A team with 2 solid high dps aux to bat boats. DO NOT have multiple ways to counter. YOU are going to have to bring 2 healers... cross healing is NOT going to allow you to stay in range of those guys for any more then 10s tops.
Seeing as I said lets get real in my last post.... let me say it again.
Lets forget PvP completely for min... lets not think about game meta and premade makeups.
Just go look at pve you don't need to look any further.
When a cruiser in a STF can parse 30k+ consistant like. (yes I understand some of that dmg is unfocused) something is very wrong in general.
I have been on teams that have smashed Infected at a pace I KNOW for sure was not intended. There is no way the devs though hmmm... what could we do that would allow people to smash all 4 current STFs in under 10min total ?
We all know that is broken. I mean come on I have played with guys where we could complete all 4 before the optional timer would have expired on the first one. lmao
Faced??
We are those teams, we've been melting people with them.:P
I like A2B. I have had about 6 different top end builds based on it at one point or another.
So that's why I feel very comfortable saying:
A2B + Tech DOFfs are clearly superior to every other Cool Down DOFF option available and in many cases superior to several different sets of cooldown DOFFs combined.
lol that's funny.
Indeed most of are not saying things are messed up because we can't afford the doffs or the gear or something silly. If I'm point out something broken myself its not because I have SEEN it... its because I have used it.
Even if you 'trick' a cruiser in using all its heals there is only an extremely short window until the cruiser can use all powers again (as antoniosalieri pointed out). The only way to defeat these builds currently is to completely vaporize them within 1-3 seconds. However only few ships and even less players are capable of doing that, while an Aux2Bat-FAW-DEM-RSP-Marion-FabricationEng cruiser requires minimal effort for insane effectiveness.
As VD said, says and would continue to say and Ultimatum sort of said, I don't think it's 1 specific thing, it's the combination of things. I like the technicians and they're really good at giving an offensive push for cruisers. Too good? Maybe but then it's probably more to do with the high up time on RSP coupled with the high uptime on tactical abilities giving them a spammable "oh s***" button and enough sting to boot.
I certainly think it's a good thing cruisers are better, unfortunately it's made the hybrids FAR more powerful than they should be and really, look at all the builds, look at all the ships and the DPS numbers. Is it the true blue cruisers going nuts with the DPS or is it the hybrids like the scimitar, heavy escort carriers and destroyers etc?
I won't reveal what Ultimatum's build is but needless to say what I could see of it (if it was a PvP build) only the ships with commander tactical could really get that level of trolololololol damage.
Also...whatever happened to the sci ships trying to do good damage ='(
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
if your going all out for offense, your running tet glider with console slots full of crit bosters and flow caps, not the borg set and armor. if your AtB cruiser is running EPtW3, dont kid your self, its a glass canon, does it even have RSP? it wont have EPtS3, and on the tac cruisers with a LTC tac, its only got 1 LTC eng power, and your using the commander spot for DEM right?
a good heal boat cruiser used as a heal boat has 2 or 3 times the damage mitigation, easy. be honest, whats gonna hold up under long term fire better, your tac cruiser or something like renim's ody? its not even close.
*sigh*
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Or they just get cross-healing.
It's a thing that only makes sense to a PUG player, the idea that you can "trick a cruiser" out of his heals. Can you trick my entire team out of all of our heals?
It's not like standard team-based Escort builds usually come loaded with a ton of heals, they are damage dealers > that is the ship's focus.
OTOH its also the only one that has an active penalty, of draining your Aux power. Too bad most fed ships are immune to subystem targeting, or you could pop the Aux power and break the rhythm.
Game is not balanced at all. Everything is setup for getting through the prebuilt content faster, not in any kind of balanced way, just faster. Romulan ships with 5 weapons and 5 tac consoles, the same faction that has buffed CrtH, the only way that makes sense is if nobody cares.
Most PvPers, including premade PvPers do want TIF to be nerfed. In fact, I believe it has been banned in every single PvP tournament up to this point.
I am hearing low magnitude aux healing again... and I am laughing again... I am not talking about healing teams here... I am talking about poping your hazards off every 25s at 125 aux ... wth would you not be doing it exactly that way.
Do you really feel squishy in your aux to bat crusiers Dont ? I doubt you do.
I would agree with you if Bort was to admit he made a mistake moving aux to bat off of the ETPx global.
Moving it to the aux to sif global instead... has destroyed what ever balance there was in the build.
It is allowing people to keep things like EPTW 3 up 100% of the time on there super a2b pve builds... and its allowing them to keep epts up on there pvp builds.
They should have to choose like we did before. (previously you could keep one EPTx at global... but not 2)
Before the change a2b was a niche build that could work in pvp with a ton of support.
Now its the standard PvE build... and lets face it a pretty standard PvP build as well.
Of course it can be countered... double tap was possible to counter as well... The point is the window of counter doesn't really fit the magnitude of the buff.
They would most likely slap the cloaking team around like wet noodles.
Part of the thing most people that like cloak hate about faw... is decloaking and loosing half your hull before your shielding kicks in. lol
I can see you have never flown with a full cloaking team. lol
If people aren't to familier I am one of the former leaders of a klink fleet that was well known for doing what you are suggesting.
If everyone is cloaked... when would be an opportune time ?
They won't be clicking faw when there are no targets. lol
If you decloak one at a time you will get smoked.
The only way to do it is to all declaok together... at which time the other team engages there aoe junk.
You will get a kill almost 100% of the time indeed... good luck escaping however with out giving them 2 kills back.
Its a wonderful way to loose a lot of matches with scores like 15 7
That isn't enough to take on a team of faw boats... waiting for a decloak to pop there faws. lol
Yes you can play around with kids in Kerrat have fun with that... a real team is going to have at least one sci ship... have fun playing around when you get declaoked and that team throws up a few faws .... while the other 4 guys on your team are NOT providing targets for the faw beams.
Yes a group of cloakers is going to roll 99% of the fed pugs even if there is a guy around with super faw.
If you are however facing an actual fed team... that is in a loose 8k ball... is waiting to support and fight back... there is NO WAY a cloak team is going to come out on top with out dragging the match to 1 hour+ most of which will be no one doing anything accept circle on both sides. It is oh such fun game play.
You threw it out there that a team of cloakers could counter a team build around faw... I'm sorry your wrong. They can't they will get murdered.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
You aren't listening to what he is saying. If your entire team is cloaked there is no ideal time to go in because the enemy team will be cycling defensive buffs while keeping damage buffs, counters, and "get out of jail free cards" at the ready. You go in one at a time, and you instantly die. You go in two at a time like you're suggesting you instantly die two at a time. You go in all at once and you'll probably get some kills, but for every kill you'll tally up two deaths.
You can think of it like rock paper scissors. A full cloak alpha team has little chance against a proper FAW ball. On the other hand, a team loaded up with enough healing to keep up with FAW ball type damage will always beat it assuming that the FAW ball has completely sacrificed burst damage in order to maximize DPS. A full decloak alpha team can be very good against such a heal heavy team because despite theoretically having enough healing to counter the alpha it is difficult to do so quickly enough -- even if the reflexes are there you still have to deal with activation time and UI lag. Lastly, it will be easier for cloakers to escape from a heal focused team than one focused on damage.
The moral of the story is that completely lopsided team comps tend to have weaknesses. The key is to find the proper balance.