Surely that would just highlight how insane passive and active healing has gotten as it would in turn gimp all other weapons/damage
Wouldn't it?
I don't think it would no.
Tacs before the changes ran 1 or 2 EPS units... doing that now would reduce the stupid amount of armour/turn consoles in the mix now. That would reduce some of the passive resistance creep there.
Engi toons would again fine massive boosts from EPS power transfer... both for themselves and for team mates.
That power drain mechanic can be worked around as well... still at least it would be a cost in some resistance in most cases.
The power draw mechanic is one of the biggest death to the engi class moves Cryptic pulled imo anyway.
Any skill even the aux 2 bat when used in the broken pvp queue by opportunistic premade teams sure is op !
This is not about premades ....its about a build everyone can copy and needs only a spacebar bind .
As for "it will ever change" ...the answer is no.Even Branflakes has a a2b faw ship these days.People asked cruisers to be escorts and devs made it that way ....this is what people who TRIBBLE all day deserve.If you can't keep a team of 5 dedicated healers against some beams the game is fine ....its all in your head.
People asked cruisers to be escorts and devs made it that way ....
...sry, but that's just wrong. the given build is around for a long time and some fleets have been bashed for using it.
it just became viable more and more as more passives/consoles/etc were introduced. and now, since double-tapping has been nerfed within some days it appeared everywhere....
one now could say it's legit, because it's around for a long time. but so was double-tap. both just got focussed because of all the changes which made it easier to perform the tactics.
may i'm not right in any detail, feel free to correct me ...
...sry, but that's just wrong. the given build is around for a long time and some fleets have been bashed for using it.
it just became viable more and more as more passives/consoles/etc were introduced. and now, since double-tapping has been nerfed within some days it appeared everywhere....
one now could say it's legit, because it's around for a long time. but so was double-tap. both just got focussed because of all the changes which made it easier to perform the tactics.
may i'm not right in any detail, feel free to correct me ...
Show me where I said its new.Every kirk wannabe wanted the support ships (cruisers) to be escorts (this is because theres no pve content for science and cruisers).Result ...everyone has the newly pimped epte that makes mines ,torps and most likely all healers useless (even maps are to small now ...who played before LoR knows how long it took to get on top of the map ...now in 2 minutes you have to tell everyone "get down" ) .Add apa strike like damage to faw and you have what you see today.
having something that's not good or broken is not a big deal but reading people defending all kinds of broken shets is really annoying.I simply cant keep up with the grind and the new sh!ts I have to buy to have even a mediocre match.
Well i followed the discussion a bit, but there is one thing i do not realy understand.
Being a big cruiser fan in pve i used the dreaded faw+a2b builds alot, and while they are very very powerfull in stfs and minefield, i fail to see them being overly effectiv in pvp, not even in pvp light like kerrat.
I mean i can see them being a problem if you have 5 those cruisers against you , but 5 escorts or 5 drain sci boats would be equally had to kill.
However in an 1 vs 1 scenario, at least me cant seem to kill anything.
I do use fleet advanced 2acc 2 dmg phaser beams, the wide angle quantum, all those crit consoles, the accurate trait and all other starship traits including helmsman, skillpoints are in targeting, manouvers, energy weaspons, thrusters , engines, warpcor potential and loadws of points are as well in shield performance and so on.
I use the nukara console, asimilated module, tahyokinetic converter, zero point energy, plasmonic leach, 3 purple technitians, 1 exocomp, dem marion doff, eptw, demIII
but while i can survive for some time, when i try to hit something like a bop or risian corvette i sometimes do 18 or 40 dmg.
While I dont expect to win all the time or what , id would be nice to score a kill at least now and then. but i seam not to be able to punch hard enough to be much of a threat. even when i can keep the target in a good bradside position, fully buffed, i hardly scratch their paint.
I tried the fleet excelsior with tt1, faw2 and apo/ then tt1 ts2, faw3
then i tried the FACR with tt1 apb1 faw3 and ts1
I even tried out the sci oddy with tt1 apb1 faw3 tss:e, ts2
Nothing seems to go through.
What am i doing wrong? In pve gameplay my phasers hit for about 1200 unbuffed nearly constantly and go up to 3000 for singe hits while using faw, not counting crits wich sometimes spke into the 10k region.
Is resistance that high? I used to play more pvp about a year ago and i never had that much trouble killing a ship before.
Well i followed the discussion a bit, but there is one thing i do not realy understand.
Being a big cruiser fan in pve i used the dreaded faw+a2b builds alot, and while they are very very powerfull in stfs and minefield, i fail to see them being overly effectiv in pvp, not even in pvp light like kerrat.
I mean i can see them being a problem if you have 5 those cruisers against you , but 5 escorts or 5 drain sci boats would be equally had to kill.
However in an 1 vs 1 scenario, at least me cant seem to kill anything.
I do use fleet advanced 2acc 2 dmg phaser beams, the wide angle quantum, all those crit consoles, the accurate trait and all other starship traits including helmsman, skillpoints are in targeting, manouvers, energy weaspons, thrusters , engines, warpcor potential and loadws of points are as well in shield performance and so on.
I use the nukara console, asimilated module, tahyokinetic converter, zero point energy, plasmonic leach, 3 purple technitians, 1 exocomp, dem marion doff, eptw, demIII
but while i can survive for some time, when i try to hit something like a bop or risian corvette i sometimes do 18 or 40 dmg.
While I dont expect to win all the time or what , id would be nice to score a kill at least now and then. but i seam not to be able to punch hard enough to be much of a threat. even when i can keep the target in a good bradside position, fully buffed, i hardly scratch their paint.
I tried the fleet excelsior with tt1, faw2 and apo/ then tt1 ts2, faw3
then i tried the FACR with tt1 apb1 faw3 and ts1
I even tried out the sci oddy with tt1 apb1 faw3 tss:e, ts2
Nothing seems to go through.
What am i doing wrong? In pve gameplay my phasers hit for about 1200 unbuffed nearly constantly and go up to 3000 for singe hits while using faw, not counting crits wich sometimes spke into the 10k region.
Is resistance that high? I used to play more pvp about a year ago and i never had that much trouble killing a ship before.
Yes resistance can be that high. Also, range and defense matter too. Getting a quality hit rate w/o debuffing an escort can be tricky.
What others are doing is leveraging multiple hull resist debuffs w/procs such as Dem et al, shield bypassing via doffs&gear, and overcapping weapons' power.
In otherwords it's likely gear/doffs is effecting your damage output you. Also if you aren't already you may want to watch your target's buff cycle and take notice of when TT is going down to time APB.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Show me where I said its new.Every kirk wannabe wanted the support ships (cruisers) to be escorts (this is because theres no pve content for science and cruisers).Result ...everyone has the newly pimped epte that makes mines ,torps and most likely all healers useless (even maps are to small now ...who played before LoR knows how long it took to get on top of the map ...now in 2 minutes you have to tell everyone "get down" ) .Add apa strike like damage to faw and you have what you see today.
having something that's not good or broken is not a big deal but reading people defending all kinds of broken shets is really annoying.I simply cant keep up with the grind and the new sh!ts I have to buy to have even a mediocre match.
So will you be the first to stand up and say the way tactical captain abilities work is not good? I mean they buff the buffed damage, not base (from what VD showed in a post) which only adds to this vicious cycle of damage being too high so healing is buffed etc. It also makes them buff things a bit higher than perhaps intended thus leading to a complication of third paragraph.
As for the Captain Kirk aspect, sure a lot wanted the increased damage, personally I wanted them to either be relevant or to do damage through the offensive abilities they do have like EWP, DEM and aceton beam. Problem is make them good enough to be worth something in PvE and they're just gonna be called OP and indeed they would have to be considering how messed up the PvE enemies are.
The problem I see though is more that PvE centres around blow all this stuff up in a certain amount of time and so you either gimp all but the damage class ship or you have to make the others do damage but in different ways, like how a drainer will (try to) drain shields for a THY or TS. Unfortunately you run into the problem of what works well for the single ship is completely bouncing off the walls OP for 5 ships spamming it like it's going out of fashion.
The problem I see though is more that PvE centres around blow all this stuff up in a certain amount of time and so you either gimp all but the damage class ship or you have to make the others do damage but in different ways, like how a drainer will (try to) drain shields for a THY or TS. Unfortunately you run into the problem of what works well for the single ship is completely bouncing off the walls OP for 5 ships spamming it like it's going out of fashion.
There's just so many puzzle pieces - and - well, I think the devs are trying to give a boost here and there where it may be needed, without necessarily considering what the results would be from somebody else putting some of those puzzle pieces together on another build.
I keep looking at the images of stuff coming with S8...and...if not for the "saturation" aspect where you're going to have to make choices here and there, S8's kicking things up in a major way from an outside/unable to test/spreadsheet warrior point of view.
I mean, c'mon, those Protonic Polarons? 25% chance on a Crit to do additional Proton damage that ignores shields? Mixed in with the enhanced bleed we've alread got? Heck, those Auto Target Module doohickey Tac consoles? +Acc, +Proton Damage, and +Cannon or Beam Damage? Yeah, you take a hit to the amount of damage being done - but in a bleed world with some of those Protonic Polarons?
understand that PVP is a SANDBOX FEATURE of STO, it has no thought or consideration given to balance. Thousands and thousands of people on right now, every public instance populated: People qued for PVP? 8.
after the beam overload changes....how did everyone think that players who want to kill bad guys would respond?
right, find another way to kill bad guys.
turns out, faw and dem on a few players in a team is more powerful than a double tap. and even more frustrating to players receiving it.
its like the difference between getting popped in 3 seconds and you can do nothing about it, or know where it came from... vs getting melted in 7 seconds and you know exactly where it came from.
i gotta tell you...im melting stfs right now. actually the only reason im finishing my rep grinds. its that easy. and i hate stfs man. im pugging on elite and finishing most in under 10 minutes. everyone is faw dem'ing it. with a2b cruisers.
what did they think would happen? cryptic basically, by taking away the ability to spike kill for most, drove all tacs into suppression builds. and then handed us a shiny new cruiser that is perfect for the role.
simply astonishing really that people didnt know this was gonna happen. i saw it coming weeks ago.
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
-acceptance-
I swear this man glows sometimes ... its biblical.
Escorts are dead.
Hardly seen any in PvP lately, its A2B DEM FAW spam boats. No skill, just mash spacebar.
Makes PvP really really irritatingly boring.
Shields gone (Whilst systematically ignoring all buffs in play), hull gone. Total time about 4 seconds. No matter what buff, no matter what counter.
All done by someone whos probably got their eyes closed it requires that little thought or skill.
Im actually glad they removed double tap, not that I ever used it. I dont like winning with broken mechanics but, this new run on stuff is just plain s**t.
Waytogo Cryptic. Youve ruined PvP further.
beam domination has been possible since the last FAW fix. the tholian rep console and the power drain aura are new, but they didnt push whats possible over some great big edge. its just that suddenly everyone decided to do it, when some STF stompers figured it out too
i still haven't run into a FAW boat that i was simply helpless against, or hit harder then mine does, they just do well because the skill required is so much lower then it is on a good spiking escort
Nearly every match Ive had the past 2 days has been that.
A couple of good PvPers as well mentioning something was off with it.
One last night, a premade of 5 scimitars, no skill required, just spammed. None of us needed tac teams because our shields were being totally ignored, hulls melting in 5 seconds flat no matter what you had running, all of it ignoring shields. Its lame, it really is lame.
Please refer to my signature for broken mechanics.
PvE? Doesnt count really. We all get insane crits in in PvE.
Ive had a wing overload on Alpha crit for 198k before.
Alpha BOs constantly critting at 60k plus.
My record pve quantum crit was just a little over 90k.
Its pve and you hit a npc with little or no resist or defense. Not that shocking.
Best quantum hit I have landed on a player mid 30s or something like that... hardly OP. Quantums are the hardest hitting standard torp in the game, and to hit a player like that you have to have them in a very bad position. Best quantum crit is still well under an average overload crit. These days.... the average quantum hit is not much more then the average faw beam strike. :P lol
Leave everything as it is, just make Beam Arrays strict broadside weapons.
BFAW boats are still very powerful, but now it won't be a silly 360 degree ball of death with more than 1 on a team. But even so, the ball of death tactic would still be feasible, it'd just require good flying and coordination (IE, effort more on par with escorts and sciboats) on part of the team, which is an incredibly reasonable thing to ask of these particular builds.
As it is now, its very true that its quite "easy" to run BFAW builds if you have the equipment to put you even remotely close to the typical fully built setup. Its easy because all you really do is react to whatever your opponent(s) are throwing at you. You don't have to expend any extra effort to not only react to your opponent but also keep up the pressure on them. This isn't so for an escort who has to constantly keep his arcs on target without popping, or a sci that has to keep up with healing his team and debuffing the right targets with the right timing.
I agree with a lot of what you say. I do have sympathy for the cannon folks. They spent lots of EC and likely zen to get a premium cannon build and now there seems to be a handout to beam builds. It is why I find it hard to invest real money into equipment with limited application duration.
The cannon people do have to realize that the game is not about a dps, heal, tank type model. Every ship should be as important, and since DPS is the only thing worth working toward in game it is going to be the handout to the ships hurting. If they want to preserve their cannon's dps supremacy they can't just fight against beams, but give an alternative to equalize cruisers and science ships. Keeping in mind what a tactical or science captain can do in anyship.
Tactical captain abilities are the problem with enhanced cruiser dps, but without the enhanced cruiser dps the engineer is useless.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
yup, and lets not ALL forget that a major change for cruiser came out and that's the commands,
and lets see here...
sci has commands, target this, target that,
cruisers have now commands, +power, +def, etc
whos left?
COMON guys, don't you think that escorts are going to get commands too?!?
bet they are going to be sweet, MY moneys on they already have in mind what 4 commands they will give escorts and even what they will try and time the release with (ships, expansion, etc)
I am not sure escorts will get commands, the commands are to make up for the reduced dps potential which is present unless you run a very specific Tactical captain A2B, DEM build. The escorts have damage on their side across the board, and damage is teh key statistic in this game. If your contribution is outside of dps, then you have to be exponentially higher than a decent dps dealer's support capacity.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
Comments
I don't think it would no.
Tacs before the changes ran 1 or 2 EPS units... doing that now would reduce the stupid amount of armour/turn consoles in the mix now. That would reduce some of the passive resistance creep there.
Engi toons would again fine massive boosts from EPS power transfer... both for themselves and for team mates.
That power drain mechanic can be worked around as well... still at least it would be a cost in some resistance in most cases.
The power draw mechanic is one of the biggest death to the engi class moves Cryptic pulled imo anyway.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
This is not about premades ....its about a build everyone can copy and needs only a spacebar bind .
As for "it will ever change" ...the answer is no.Even Branflakes has a a2b faw ship these days.People asked cruisers to be escorts and devs made it that way ....this is what people who TRIBBLE all day deserve.If you can't keep a team of 5 dedicated healers against some beams the game is fine ....its all in your head.
...sry, but that's just wrong. the given build is around for a long time and some fleets have been bashed for using it.
it just became viable more and more as more passives/consoles/etc were introduced. and now, since double-tapping has been nerfed within some days it appeared everywhere....
one now could say it's legit, because it's around for a long time. but so was double-tap. both just got focussed because of all the changes which made it easier to perform the tactics.
may i'm not right in any detail, feel free to correct me
Show me where I said its new.Every kirk wannabe wanted the support ships (cruisers) to be escorts (this is because theres no pve content for science and cruisers).Result ...everyone has the newly pimped epte that makes mines ,torps and most likely all healers useless (even maps are to small now ...who played before LoR knows how long it took to get on top of the map ...now in 2 minutes you have to tell everyone "get down" ) .Add apa strike like damage to faw and you have what you see today.
having something that's not good or broken is not a big deal but reading people defending all kinds of broken shets is really annoying.I simply cant keep up with the grind and the new sh!ts I have to buy to have even a mediocre match.
Being a big cruiser fan in pve i used the dreaded faw+a2b builds alot, and while they are very very powerfull in stfs and minefield, i fail to see them being overly effectiv in pvp, not even in pvp light like kerrat.
I mean i can see them being a problem if you have 5 those cruisers against you , but 5 escorts or 5 drain sci boats would be equally had to kill.
However in an 1 vs 1 scenario, at least me cant seem to kill anything.
I do use fleet advanced 2acc 2 dmg phaser beams, the wide angle quantum, all those crit consoles, the accurate trait and all other starship traits including helmsman, skillpoints are in targeting, manouvers, energy weaspons, thrusters , engines, warpcor potential and loadws of points are as well in shield performance and so on.
I use the nukara console, asimilated module, tahyokinetic converter, zero point energy, plasmonic leach, 3 purple technitians, 1 exocomp, dem marion doff, eptw, demIII
but while i can survive for some time, when i try to hit something like a bop or risian corvette i sometimes do 18 or 40 dmg.
While I dont expect to win all the time or what , id would be nice to score a kill at least now and then. but i seam not to be able to punch hard enough to be much of a threat. even when i can keep the target in a good bradside position, fully buffed, i hardly scratch their paint.
I tried the fleet excelsior with tt1, faw2 and apo/ then tt1 ts2, faw3
then i tried the FACR with tt1 apb1 faw3 and ts1
I even tried out the sci oddy with tt1 apb1 faw3 tss:e, ts2
Nothing seems to go through.
What am i doing wrong? In pve gameplay my phasers hit for about 1200 unbuffed nearly constantly and go up to 3000 for singe hits while using faw, not counting crits wich sometimes spke into the 10k region.
Is resistance that high? I used to play more pvp about a year ago and i never had that much trouble killing a ship before.
Yes resistance can be that high. Also, range and defense matter too. Getting a quality hit rate w/o debuffing an escort can be tricky.
What others are doing is leveraging multiple hull resist debuffs w/procs such as Dem et al, shield bypassing via doffs&gear, and overcapping weapons' power.
In otherwords it's likely gear/doffs is effecting your damage output you. Also if you aren't already you may want to watch your target's buff cycle and take notice of when TT is going down to time APB.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
So will you be the first to stand up and say the way tactical captain abilities work is not good? I mean they buff the buffed damage, not base (from what VD showed in a post) which only adds to this vicious cycle of damage being too high so healing is buffed etc. It also makes them buff things a bit higher than perhaps intended thus leading to a complication of third paragraph.
As for the Captain Kirk aspect, sure a lot wanted the increased damage, personally I wanted them to either be relevant or to do damage through the offensive abilities they do have like EWP, DEM and aceton beam. Problem is make them good enough to be worth something in PvE and they're just gonna be called OP and indeed they would have to be considering how messed up the PvE enemies are.
The problem I see though is more that PvE centres around blow all this stuff up in a certain amount of time and so you either gimp all but the damage class ship or you have to make the others do damage but in different ways, like how a drainer will (try to) drain shields for a THY or TS. Unfortunately you run into the problem of what works well for the single ship is completely bouncing off the walls OP for 5 ships spamming it like it's going out of fashion.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
There's just so many puzzle pieces - and - well, I think the devs are trying to give a boost here and there where it may be needed, without necessarily considering what the results would be from somebody else putting some of those puzzle pieces together on another build.
I keep looking at the images of stuff coming with S8...and...if not for the "saturation" aspect where you're going to have to make choices here and there, S8's kicking things up in a major way from an outside/unable to test/spreadsheet warrior point of view.
I mean, c'mon, those Protonic Polarons? 25% chance on a Crit to do additional Proton damage that ignores shields? Mixed in with the enhanced bleed we've alread got? Heck, those Auto Target Module doohickey Tac consoles? +Acc, +Proton Damage, and +Cannon or Beam Damage? Yeah, you take a hit to the amount of damage being done - but in a bleed world with some of those Protonic Polarons?
Meh, Doom...I dare say?
... i'm not a fan of it u know
For Pve.
understand that PVP is a SANDBOX FEATURE of STO, it has no thought or consideration given to balance. Thousands and thousands of people on right now, every public instance populated: People qued for PVP? 8.
Coles Notes: Cryptic Doesent Care About PVP.
QFT
problem is Geko hasn't looked at the code in a long time, and based on his first hand observations everything is fine.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
daFAWg you FAW?!
I swear this man glows sometimes ... its biblical.
Escorts are dead.
Hardly seen any in PvP lately, its A2B DEM FAW spam boats. No skill, just mash spacebar.
Makes PvP really really irritatingly boring.
Shields gone (Whilst systematically ignoring all buffs in play), hull gone. Total time about 4 seconds. No matter what buff, no matter what counter.
All done by someone whos probably got their eyes closed it requires that little thought or skill.
Im actually glad they removed double tap, not that I ever used it. I dont like winning with broken mechanics but, this new run on stuff is just plain s**t.
Waytogo Cryptic. Youve ruined PvP further.
i still haven't run into a FAW boat that i was simply helpless against, or hit harder then mine does, they just do well because the skill required is so much lower then it is on a good spiking escort
A couple of good PvPers as well mentioning something was off with it.
One last night, a premade of 5 scimitars, no skill required, just spammed. None of us needed tac teams because our shields were being totally ignored, hulls melting in 5 seconds flat no matter what you had running, all of it ignoring shields. Its lame, it really is lame.
PvE? Doesnt count really. We all get insane crits in in PvE.
Ive had a wing overload on Alpha crit for 198k before.
Alpha BOs constantly critting at 60k plus.
Its pve and you hit a npc with little or no resist or defense. Not that shocking.
Best quantum hit I have landed on a player mid 30s or something like that... hardly OP. Quantums are the hardest hitting standard torp in the game, and to hit a player like that you have to have them in a very bad position. Best quantum crit is still well under an average overload crit. These days.... the average quantum hit is not much more then the average faw beam strike. :P lol
:cool:
Leave everything as it is, just make Beam Arrays strict broadside weapons.
BFAW boats are still very powerful, but now it won't be a silly 360 degree ball of death with more than 1 on a team. But even so, the ball of death tactic would still be feasible, it'd just require good flying and coordination (IE, effort more on par with escorts and sciboats) on part of the team, which is an incredibly reasonable thing to ask of these particular builds.
As it is now, its very true that its quite "easy" to run BFAW builds if you have the equipment to put you even remotely close to the typical fully built setup. Its easy because all you really do is react to whatever your opponent(s) are throwing at you. You don't have to expend any extra effort to not only react to your opponent but also keep up the pressure on them. This isn't so for an escort who has to constantly keep his arcs on target without popping, or a sci that has to keep up with healing his team and debuffing the right targets with the right timing.
I agree with a lot of what you say. I do have sympathy for the cannon folks. They spent lots of EC and likely zen to get a premium cannon build and now there seems to be a handout to beam builds. It is why I find it hard to invest real money into equipment with limited application duration.
The cannon people do have to realize that the game is not about a dps, heal, tank type model. Every ship should be as important, and since DPS is the only thing worth working toward in game it is going to be the handout to the ships hurting. If they want to preserve their cannon's dps supremacy they can't just fight against beams, but give an alternative to equalize cruisers and science ships. Keeping in mind what a tactical or science captain can do in anyship.
Tactical captain abilities are the problem with enhanced cruiser dps, but without the enhanced cruiser dps the engineer is useless.
I am not sure escorts will get commands, the commands are to make up for the reduced dps potential which is present unless you run a very specific Tactical captain A2B, DEM build. The escorts have damage on their side across the board, and damage is teh key statistic in this game. If your contribution is outside of dps, then you have to be exponentially higher than a decent dps dealer's support capacity.