I don't play much of PvP games anymore, but certainly every one I've ever played that featured respawns has included spawn camping.
Yup, and in EvE gate *control* (camping is not really the right word) is intentional game design.
I played for a few years because I got into a pretty good corp. But I'm not really the right kind of person, and after I learned our leadership was intentionally taking us into missions to be sacrificed to the Russian corps (the price of being permitted our tiny piece of real estate) that dominated the game I figured I'd be happier not being there anymore. And I was.
I honestly can't recall the last time I played a pvp map in STO. A couple of duels, that's about it. Not fun to me.
The beginning assumption at Cryptic, is that PvP players are a bunch of exploit-happy spawncamping noobstomping douchebags.
Personal experience with such individuals has definitely borne out that assessment.
well you have to understand-they worked very very hard to make sure that that toxic portion of the community was the majority of what was left once they'd dispensed with anyone who knew better in the office.
Yeah...no. I'll be rejecting anything that absolves the individual of any miniscule portion of responsibility for their own actions.
Regarding the addition of PVP to the console version, that can be explained by the relative large PVP communities on consoles.
Even if PVP is not coveted in Star Trek PC games (With STVEF perhaps being an exception) it could be a desirable feature for console players.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Yup, and in EvE gate *control* (camping is not really the right word) is intentional game design.
In EvE Online, iirc, gate control is actually the design mechanics that lets gates independently fire (very heavy) turrets at infringers of the Secspace peace (when you're in range). Gate camping, OTOH, is just the usual PvP-cowardice. I had a Tengu whose sig I could make so small, that you could just barely evade a target lock when coming out of the gate. And even then some campers managed to briefly lock you, after all.
On another note, I marveled there were players who would sit there for hours waiting to play alarm bell.
Anyway, EvE is its own thing. There are no lack of videos of people who rightly IMO say "I am a sociopath, but do you want me IRL or in a game getting my kicks".
I like them in a game getting their kicks. And I don't go there.
Wouldn't you think a safe zone for any fixed respawn point would help to alter this? Even if they are random, they still use fixed points to base it from. I'm sure there are ways. Something that doesn't prevent pvp play, but something that helps give players a few moments to figure out what's going on. As said earlier, I didn't even have time for the screen to show the view before I was mobbed and blown away. That sort of thing IS a problem, no matter the game. There are solutions to this, but at the moment none are in place. Having to close my game just so I can get out of a zone, is not a productive solution no matter how you look at it.
sad part is, we're discussing this as if it's a problem-but really, don't fool yourself thinking that it's a problem Cryptic will spend five minutes thinking about, because it's not. Making PvP as an activity less desirable is a feature, not a bug. Marketing forces them to keep the mode, but that doesn't mean they're going to try and make it a viable mode.
Yeah, the last thing I remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed the daily rewards.
Wouldn't you think a safe zone for any fixed respawn point would help to alter this? Even if they are random, they still use fixed points to base it from. I'm sure there are ways. Something that doesn't prevent pvp play, but something that helps give players a few moments to figure out what's going on. As said earlier, I didn't even have time for the screen to show the view before I was mobbed and blown away. That sort of thing IS a problem, no matter the game. There are solutions to this, but at the moment none are in place. Having to close my game just so I can get out of a zone, is not a productive solution no matter how you look at it.
sad part is, we're discussing this as if it's a problem-but really, don't fool yourself thinking that it's a problem Cryptic will spend five minutes thinking about, because it's not. Making PvP as an activity less desirable is a feature, not a bug. Marketing forces them to keep the mode, but that doesn't mean they're going to try and make it a viable mode.
Yeah, the last thing I remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed the daily rewards.
The last thing *I* remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed SS3 into the ground, and Ionic Turbulance. :P
Wouldn't you think a safe zone for any fixed respawn point would help to alter this? Even if they are random, they still use fixed points to base it from. I'm sure there are ways. Something that doesn't prevent pvp play, but something that helps give players a few moments to figure out what's going on. As said earlier, I didn't even have time for the screen to show the view before I was mobbed and blown away. That sort of thing IS a problem, no matter the game. There are solutions to this, but at the moment none are in place. Having to close my game just so I can get out of a zone, is not a productive solution no matter how you look at it.
sad part is, we're discussing this as if it's a problem-but really, don't fool yourself thinking that it's a problem Cryptic will spend five minutes thinking about, because it's not. Making PvP as an activity less desirable is a feature, not a bug. Marketing forces them to keep the mode, but that doesn't mean they're going to try and make it a viable mode.
Yeah, the last thing I remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed the daily rewards.
The last thing *I* remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed SS3 into the ground, and Ionic Turbulance. :P
I remember that too, it's one of those weird things. It was OP in PvP, killing the tankiest players in seconds but it wasn't that OP in PvE.
Wouldn't you think a safe zone for any fixed respawn point would help to alter this? Even if they are random, they still use fixed points to base it from. I'm sure there are ways. Something that doesn't prevent pvp play, but something that helps give players a few moments to figure out what's going on. As said earlier, I didn't even have time for the screen to show the view before I was mobbed and blown away. That sort of thing IS a problem, no matter the game. There are solutions to this, but at the moment none are in place. Having to close my game just so I can get out of a zone, is not a productive solution no matter how you look at it.
sad part is, we're discussing this as if it's a problem-but really, don't fool yourself thinking that it's a problem Cryptic will spend five minutes thinking about, because it's not. Making PvP as an activity less desirable is a feature, not a bug. Marketing forces them to keep the mode, but that doesn't mean they're going to try and make it a viable mode.
Yeah, the last thing I remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed the daily rewards.
The last thing *I* remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed SS3 into the ground, and Ionic Turbulance. :P
I remember that too, it's one of those weird things. It was OP in PvP, killing the tankiest players in seconds but it wasn't that OP in PvE.
Same, i remember that time too. I also remember when they fixed it, 90% of Klingon players and about 20% of federation abandoned Ker'rat for about 1 - 2 weeks.
Can understand why, the ones who were abusing the broken nature of SS3 and Ionic turbulance knew there was a massive fleet waiting to get some revenge.
Actually Kyle, i havent been to Ker'rat in months, though i used to see you around alot. How is Ker'rat these days, especially now they have finally fixed the temporal abilities being able to be used in cloak bit?
thoguh I DO remember you howled like your dog was being tortured when Ionic stopped being an auto-hit on other players Meimei-which was hilarity to me because you were so proudly anti-PvP at the time, yet the "nerf" didn't actually affect the power's performance against NPCs in the slightest.
It's almost like it was your security blanket for n00bstomping in Ker'rat and without it you felt lost.
And I do remember the PvP cries that went up and reached for high Heaven, so loud. And I remember you were the loudest. And then Bort finally caved, and fixed it all for you, entirely on his own accord (ahem); and then Intel was dead. That was one of the few times a handful of PvP-ers really intruded upon PvE in an ugly way.
Hilarious, btw, you think I ever was in Ker'rat, 'n00bstomping', no less. Trust me, in Ker'rat, I'd be the n00b getting stomped on. Which is why I wisely stay out of there.
On a more positive note, I kinda remembered your handle, but at times doubted it was really you, as you have gotten a lot friendlier, really; polite almost. I recall you being so angry. Maybe it was the SS3 thingy? Anyway, it's been a pleasant improvement.
Wouldn't you think a safe zone for any fixed respawn point would help to alter this? Even if they are random, they still use fixed points to base it from. I'm sure there are ways. Something that doesn't prevent pvp play, but something that helps give players a few moments to figure out what's going on. As said earlier, I didn't even have time for the screen to show the view before I was mobbed and blown away. That sort of thing IS a problem, no matter the game. There are solutions to this, but at the moment none are in place. Having to close my game just so I can get out of a zone, is not a productive solution no matter how you look at it.
sad part is, we're discussing this as if it's a problem-but really, don't fool yourself thinking that it's a problem Cryptic will spend five minutes thinking about, because it's not. Making PvP as an activity less desirable is a feature, not a bug. Marketing forces them to keep the mode, but that doesn't mean they're going to try and make it a viable mode.
Yeah, the last thing I remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed the daily rewards.
The last thing *I* remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed SS3 into the ground, and Ionic Turbulance. :P
I remember that too, it's one of those weird things. It was OP in PvP, killing the tankiest players in seconds but it wasn't that OP in PvE.
Same, i remember that time too. I also remember when they fixed it, 90% of Klingon players and about 20% of federation abandoned Ker'rat for about 1 - 2 weeks.
Can understand why, the ones who were abusing the broken nature of SS3 and Ionic turbulance knew there was a massive fleet waiting to get some revenge.
Actually Kyle, i havent been to Ker'rat in months, though i used to see you around alot. How is Ker'rat these days, especially now they have finally fixed the temporal abilities being able to be used in cloak bit?
Hi, yeah I still go in there. But I've just accepted that with the current meta, there's no way to guard against a lot of the abilities people use. So I'd say Ker'rat is still really bad, if not worse than it was when DR first launched. It's really hard to tank the physical damage abilities, and that's all most people fly now. I don't expect there to be any changes to these abilities because they probably perform fine in pve. There's just no way to mitigate shield penetration to stop just about everything from bypassing your shields now. You would think that if cryptic were to ramp up the defensive abilities to counter the offensive abilities, that would at least help in ker'rat and it wouldn't effect pve at all because people would still be able to do the same damage.
thoguh I DO remember you howled like your dog was being tortured when Ionic stopped being an auto-hit on other players Meimei-which was hilarity to me because you were so proudly anti-PvP at the time, yet the "nerf" didn't actually affect the power's performance against NPCs in the slightest.
It's almost like it was your security blanket for n00bstomping in Ker'rat and without it you felt lost.
And I do remember the PvP cries that went up and reached for high Heaven, so loud. And I remember you were the loudest. And then Bort finally caved, and fixed it all for you, entirely on his own accord (ahem); and then Intel was dead. That was one of the few times a handful of PvP-ers really intruded upon PvE in an ugly way.
Hilarious, btw, you think I ever was in Ker'rat, 'n00bstomping', no less. Trust me, in Ker'rat, I'd be the n00b getting stomped on. Which is why I wisely stay out of there.
On a more positive note, I kinda remembered your handle, but at times doubted it was really you, as you have gotten a lot friendlier, really; polite almost. I recall you being so angry. Maybe it was the SS3 thingy? Anyway, it's been a pleasant improvement.
Couldn't they change NPCs to have less hull and shields in favor of actually using resist abilities so they're almost like players? Then all abilities would be more balanced for players and npcs.
Another idea is to have a different version of an ability for pvp than for pve. There are already some things that say like "half effective vs players" or something like that.
thoguh I DO remember you howled like your dog was being tortured when Ionic stopped being an auto-hit on other players Meimei-which was hilarity to me because you were so proudly anti-PvP at the time, yet the "nerf" didn't actually affect the power's performance against NPCs in the slightest.
It's almost like it was your security blanket for n00bstomping in Ker'rat and without it you felt lost.
And I do remember the PvP cries that went up and reached for high Heaven, so loud. And I remember you were the loudest. And then Bort finally caved, and fixed it all for you, entirely on his own accord (ahem); and then Intel was dead. That was one of the few times a handful of PvP-ers really intruded upon PvE in an ugly way.
Hilarious, btw, you think I ever was in Ker'rat, 'n00bstomping', no less. Trust me, in Ker'rat, I'd be the n00b getting stomped on. Which is why I wisely stay out of there.
On a more positive note, I kinda remembered your handle, but at times doubted it was really you, as you have gotten a lot friendlier, really; polite almost. I recall you being so angry. Maybe it was the SS3 thingy? Anyway, it's been a pleasant improvement.
Couldn't they change NPCs to have less hull and shields in favor of actually using resist abilities so they're almost like players? Then all abilities would be more balanced for players and npcs.
Another idea is to have a different version of an ability for pvp than for pve. There are already some things that say like "half effective vs players" or something like that.
Actually, I was a proponent of the latter. Indeed, a handful of disables and such already work differently on real players than on NPC's; ironically, several of those are Intel abilities, like Evade Target lock, for instance, or Electromagnetic Pulse Probe. So the framework for a PvE/PvP skill separation was already there; but I guess that ship has sailed now.
thoguh I DO remember you howled like your dog was being tortured when Ionic stopped being an auto-hit on other players Meimei-which was hilarity to me because you were so proudly anti-PvP at the time, yet the "nerf" didn't actually affect the power's performance against NPCs in the slightest.
It's almost like it was your security blanket for n00bstomping in Ker'rat and without it you felt lost.
And I do remember the PvP cries that went up and reached for high Heaven, so loud. And I remember you were the loudest. And then Bort finally caved, and fixed it all for you, entirely on his own accord (ahem); and then Intel was dead. That was one of the few times a handful of PvP-ers really intruded upon PvE in an ugly way.
Hilarious, btw, you think I ever was in Ker'rat, 'n00bstomping', no less. Trust me, in Ker'rat, I'd be the n00b getting stomped on. Which is why I wisely stay out of there.
On a more positive note, I kinda remembered your handle, but at times doubted it was really you, as you have gotten a lot friendlier, really; polite almost. I recall you being so angry. Maybe it was the SS3 thingy? Anyway, it's been a pleasant improvement.
Couldn't they change NPCs to have less hull and shields in favor of actually using resist abilities so they're almost like players? Then all abilities would be more balanced for players and npcs.
Another idea is to have a different version of an ability for pvp than for pve. There are already some things that say like "half effective vs players" or something like that.
Actually, I was a proponent of the latter. Indeed, a handful of disables and such already work differently on real players than on NPC's; ironically, several of those are Intel abilities, like Evade Target lock, for instance, or Electromagnetic Pulse Probe. So the framework for a PvE/PvP skill separation was already there; but I guess that ship has sailed now.
one option would be for a limited no-kill timer on someone who's just been blown away, unless they then in-turn attack back before the timer runs out, causing it to stop.
well, I flubbed that concept, but you get the gist of it.
just a thought about how some companies deal with this issue.
Others use safe zones, etc.
Even others use reverse benefits, where in the destroyed continually gains ever increasing time-limited buffs each time they die. These last until they in turn win or time runs out.
Hmm. can't think of any of the other methods, although I know there's more than this, I can't recall any off hand.
I guess 'calling in all ships' and swarming the enemy with a bunch of temporary ships might count.
one option would be for a limited no-kill timer on someone who's just been blown away, unless they then in-turn attack back before the timer runs out, causing it to stop.
well, I flubbed that concept, but you get the gist of it.
just a thought about how some companies deal with this issue.
Others use safe zones, etc.
Even others use reverse benefits, where in the destroyed continually gains ever increasing time-limited buffs each time they die. These last until they in turn win or time runs out.
Hmm. can't think of any of the other methods, although I know there's more than this, I can't recall any off hand.
I don't recall any game that actually used this, but in an open-area map like Ker'rat, it would be possible to sort spawn points by distance to the nearest enemy and always use the furthest one...so nobody would ever spawn at a camped point. Of course, this would require there to be enough spawn points spread far enough around that enemy couldn't just camp all of them.
Look, STO is a mess of a game. I'd honestly recommend people treat it for what it really is - A glorified F2P mobile game that's designed to be played for 30 minutes a day, if that.
As soon as you apply any depth of thought to builds and skills, the whole thing breaks apart. Team queues become soloble, people PM you for ruining the game for them, suspension of disbelief becomes harder as you solo T4 Fed cruiser wipes out a Lvl 60+ Borg armada.
Forget PvP, it's been beyond saving for a while now. It was on an increasingly faster downward spiral since the game went F2P.
The last thing *I* remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed SS3 into the ground, and Ionic Turbulance. :P
Ionic Turbulence I can understand, but SS3? That ability was rendered pretty much worthless vs FAW. I can kill a whole mob with FAW, while it takes the same time for SS3 to kill one. And heck, the crit damage isn't that much different, which is absurd.
Look, STO is a mess of a game. I'd honestly recommend people treat it for what it really is - A glorified F2P mobile game that's designed to be played for 30 minutes a day, if that.
As soon as you apply any depth of thought to builds and skills, the whole thing breaks apart. Team queues become soloble, people PM you for ruining the game for them, suspension of disbelief becomes harder as you solo T4 Fed cruiser wipes out a Lvl 60+ Borg armada.
Forget PvP, it's been beyond saving for a while now. It was on an increasingly faster downward spiral since the game went F2P.
The last thing *I* remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed SS3 into the ground, and Ionic Turbulance. :P
Ionic Turbulence I can understand, but SS3? That ability was rendered pretty much worthless vs FAW. I can kill a whole mob with FAW, while it takes the same time for SS3 to kill one. And heck, the crit damage isn't that much different, which is absurd.
Sorry blaming FTP for the utter failure PVP is wrong. There are many reasons why PVP is a fail but FTP is not one of them. Try Wallet warriors and the absolute outrageous damages you can do with a ship with maxed out consoles and weapons. This is more or less at the core of why PVP failed. You had such an imbalence where a person new to the game comes into a PVP map with a T-3 and faces T-5, T-5u, and all the myrid T-6's. yeah watch how fast you die. If you are new to a game and step into PVP where you have zero chance it can be frustrating. What PVP should have been instead of the domain of the Wallet Warrior where anything goes would have been a tier limited and gear level limited contest where skill not gear or ship carried the day. PVPers cry imbalance and instead of suggesting that PVP is changed to something like this they cry power creep and NERF NERF. It's not the FTPers that have killed PVP but PVPers them selves in their arrogence that PVP is end all be all and everything should be equal. But like I said the irony is what they call equal is only what gives them the advantage not true balance which a ship tier limited, gear level limited PVP would do.
incorrect. mostly it's based on the level of the player - not the level of her equipment. And once someone hits around level 50 or so, there is a huge gap between a lot of players simply due to how long some toons have been in use.
Comments
Personal experience with such individuals has definitely borne out that assessment.
I played for a few years because I got into a pretty good corp. But I'm not really the right kind of person, and after I learned our leadership was intentionally taking us into missions to be sacrificed to the Russian corps (the price of being permitted our tiny piece of real estate) that dominated the game I figured I'd be happier not being there anymore. And I was.
I honestly can't recall the last time I played a pvp map in STO. A couple of duels, that's about it. Not fun to me.
Yeah...no. I'll be rejecting anything that absolves the individual of any miniscule portion of responsibility for their own actions.
Even if PVP is not coveted in Star Trek PC games (With STVEF perhaps being an exception) it could be a desirable feature for console players.
In EvE Online, iirc, gate control is actually the design mechanics that lets gates independently fire (very heavy) turrets at infringers of the Secspace peace (when you're in range). Gate camping, OTOH, is just the usual PvP-cowardice.
Anyway, I digress.
On another note, I marveled there were players who would sit there for hours waiting to play alarm bell.
Anyway, EvE is its own thing. There are no lack of videos of people who rightly IMO say "I am a sociopath, but do you want me IRL or in a game getting my kicks".
I like them in a game getting their kicks. And I don't go there.
Yeah, the last thing I remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed the daily rewards.
The last thing *I* remember them doing about PvP was when they nerfed SS3 into the ground, and Ionic Turbulance. :P
I remember that too, it's one of those weird things. It was OP in PvP, killing the tankiest players in seconds but it wasn't that OP in PvE.
Same, i remember that time too. I also remember when they fixed it, 90% of Klingon players and about 20% of federation abandoned Ker'rat for about 1 - 2 weeks.
Can understand why, the ones who were abusing the broken nature of SS3 and Ionic turbulance knew there was a massive fleet waiting to get some revenge.
Actually Kyle, i havent been to Ker'rat in months, though i used to see you around alot. How is Ker'rat these days, especially now they have finally fixed the temporal abilities being able to be used in cloak bit?
And I do remember the PvP cries that went up and reached for high Heaven, so loud. And I remember you were the loudest.
Hilarious, btw, you think I ever was in Ker'rat, 'n00bstomping', no less. Trust me, in Ker'rat, I'd be the n00b getting stomped on.
On a more positive note, I kinda remembered your handle, but at times doubted it was really you, as you have gotten a lot friendlier, really; polite almost. I recall you being so angry. Maybe it was the SS3 thingy?
Hi, yeah I still go in there. But I've just accepted that with the current meta, there's no way to guard against a lot of the abilities people use. So I'd say Ker'rat is still really bad, if not worse than it was when DR first launched. It's really hard to tank the physical damage abilities, and that's all most people fly now. I don't expect there to be any changes to these abilities because they probably perform fine in pve. There's just no way to mitigate shield penetration to stop just about everything from bypassing your shields now. You would think that if cryptic were to ramp up the defensive abilities to counter the offensive abilities, that would at least help in ker'rat and it wouldn't effect pve at all because people would still be able to do the same damage.
Couldn't they change NPCs to have less hull and shields in favor of actually using resist abilities so they're almost like players? Then all abilities would be more balanced for players and npcs.
Another idea is to have a different version of an ability for pvp than for pve. There are already some things that say like "half effective vs players" or something like that.
Actually, I was a proponent of the latter.
True.
well, I flubbed that concept, but you get the gist of it.
just a thought about how some companies deal with this issue.
Others use safe zones, etc.
Even others use reverse benefits, where in the destroyed continually gains ever increasing time-limited buffs each time they die. These last until they in turn win or time runs out.
Hmm. can't think of any of the other methods, although I know there's more than this, I can't recall any off hand.
I guess 'calling in all ships' and swarming the enemy with a bunch of temporary ships might count.
Or Q snapping his fingers.
I don't recall any game that actually used this, but in an open-area map like Ker'rat, it would be possible to sort spawn points by distance to the nearest enemy and always use the furthest one...so nobody would ever spawn at a camped point. Of course, this would require there to be enough spawn points spread far enough around that enemy couldn't just camp all of them.
As soon as you apply any depth of thought to builds and skills, the whole thing breaks apart. Team queues become soloble, people PM you for ruining the game for them, suspension of disbelief becomes harder as you solo T4 Fed cruiser wipes out a Lvl 60+ Borg armada.
Forget PvP, it's been beyond saving for a while now. It was on an increasingly faster downward spiral since the game went F2P.
Ionic Turbulence I can understand, but SS3? That ability was rendered pretty much worthless vs FAW. I can kill a whole mob with FAW, while it takes the same time for SS3 to kill one. And heck, the crit damage isn't that much different, which is absurd.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Sorry blaming FTP for the utter failure PVP is wrong. There are many reasons why PVP is a fail but FTP is not one of them. Try Wallet warriors and the absolute outrageous damages you can do with a ship with maxed out consoles and weapons. This is more or less at the core of why PVP failed. You had such an imbalence where a person new to the game comes into a PVP map with a T-3 and faces T-5, T-5u, and all the myrid T-6's. yeah watch how fast you die. If you are new to a game and step into PVP where you have zero chance it can be frustrating. What PVP should have been instead of the domain of the Wallet Warrior where anything goes would have been a tier limited and gear level limited contest where skill not gear or ship carried the day. PVPers cry imbalance and instead of suggesting that PVP is changed to something like this they cry power creep and NERF NERF. It's not the FTPers that have killed PVP but PVPers them selves in their arrogence that PVP is end all be all and everything should be equal. But like I said the irony is what they call equal is only what gives them the advantage not true balance which a ship tier limited, gear level limited PVP would do.