I was in the Navy for 11 years. I can tell you that a lot of what I did in the Navy could have been in Star Fleet. It wasn't always blowing things up and war.
The problem with canon is that Star Trek has had people say Star fleet is a military and isn't a military.
It is my belief that Star fleet is a military. I see it in the small things in Star Trek. When Riker makes Geordi 'pop tall' when giving an official report in 'TNG' pilot...I see it.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I think what's amusing me most is all the people saying "military" like it's a bad thing.
(Then, of course, my mind starts wandering to a bit from Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, when Superman is reminiscing about the Congressional hearings superhumans were being forced to attend, and Batman's response to them: "You just laughed that scary laugh of yours. 'Of course we're criminals,' you said. 'We've always been criminals. We have to be criminals.'")
@darthmeow504 I think you can save your breath. The most recent Trek movie speaks the very words that would end the debate, yet it's ignored by a certain part of the crowd because... just because. It's just the way it is.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I think what's amusing me most is all the people saying "military" like it's a bad thing.
I think it's stuck in minds, as @darthmeow504 is mentioning, as a primarily military organization when people are saying military - with its main dedication as the Federation's defense force versus it being a science arm of the Federation which also includes defensive duties.
And there's the tall ships ethos, of course, back in the original series - with ships on long-distance missions isolated for long periods of time with the Captain as god.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
@darthmeow504 I think you can save your breath. The most recent Trek movie speaks the very words that would end the debate, yet it's ignored by a certain part of the crowd because... just because. It's just the way it is.
One line does not make it so, when everything in canon points to that line being incorrect. If Sulu said the outer hull of the Enterprise was green, would that make it true when you can see with your own eyes that it is not?
@darthmeow504 I think you can save your breath. The most recent Trek movie speaks the very words that would end the debate, yet it's ignored by a certain part of the crowd because... just because. It's just the way it is.
And again you're not listening - in the Kelvin Timeline (in which Star Fleet has developed very differently and is a separate situation from the Prime Universe) I agree it's clearly put that "ooo, Star Fleet isn't a military". I'm not sure why you of all people would make that an argument for anything in the Prime Timeline...?
...I just want to know who IS the military in the KT-verse or if the writing for that particular bright cheery future does in fact hinge on the KT Federation being exempt from danger because of humanity's manifest destiny and poor writing? The implication that there is no military at all because right after having a war everyone decided they don't need a military (whuuh?) so military commanders were folded into Star Fleet leaves me standing around waiting for the rest of the thought or at least a little more detail on how something like that happens.
Apparently some folks think "military" = "evil". It's an amusingly naive position, which can become irritating if repeated often enough, much like a toddler's first naughty word.
I think this is the crux of the issue between fans.
Now we know Starfleet has been both said to be military and not. Soldiers and explorers. But not by the same people
So how about a wider angle look?
The way I see it. (With some help from this argument in the previous thread) Starfleet is the joint patrol organization made by the founders of the Federation. Tellarite engineering, Andorian weapons, Human warp drives, Vulcan science. Melded together to make a greater whole than any one founder had alone. Initial role, to bring the founding races together and help police them. When outsiders came they might be greater than one member race's ships. But not the unified Star Fleet. So in Kirk's time they patrolled. Exploring when they could but always keeping an eye out for trouble because trouble was there. Into the movies this was the basic theme. Well endowed multi-role ships doing what ever needed doing. By Undiscovered Country the greatest threat to the peace of the Federation had a catastrophe and sued for peace. And the seeds were planted. The next Enterprise was a bigger better vessel of the same role and ideology as her predecessor. But she had been preplanned that way. By the C while good at fighting it did not seem to be a role she had to keep in the fore of her repertoire. By the time of Picard and the D, it was a time of great peace. Ships were retooled to include families. Starfleet hung up her war readiness with a smile and hugged her children. Then came the borg and the Dominion. And suddenly the finally at peace Federation is running back to conducting a war. And her ships started to look it.
Starfleet is the protective arm of the Federation. They treat the term military as a dirty word because it connotes the ugly nature of war. As Kirk demonstrated however in A Taste of Armageddon, war should be ugly. That is why you avoid it.
Is Starfleet the military of the Federation? In my opinion. Yes, when it has to be.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
@darthmeow504 I think you can save your breath. The most recent Trek movie speaks the very words that would end the debate, yet it's ignored by a certain part of the crowd because... just because. It's just the way it is.
And again you're not listening - in the Kelvin Timeline (in which Star Fleet has developed very differently and is a separate situation from the Prime Universe) I agree it's clearly put that "ooo, Star Fleet isn't a military". I'm not sure why you of all people would make that an argument for anything in the Prime Timeline...?
...I just want to know who IS the military in the KT-verse or if the writing for that particular bright cheery future does in fact hinge on the KT Federation being exempt from danger because of humanity's manifest destiny and poor writing? The implication that there is no military at all because right after having a war everyone decided they don't need a military (whuuh?) so military commanders were folded into Star Fleet leaves me standing around waiting for the rest of the thought or at least a little more detail on how something like that happens.
Okay, I guess I try it again.
First of all the cited instance is relevant for the prime timeline as the two timelines are identical up to ST09. That means the whole thing with MACOs, Starfleet and Edison happened like that in the prime universe as well. Do I personally think it works like that? No. I personally see the KT and PU thing differently. But that's my headcanon, my preferred version of things. Canon however works differently. When explicitly discussing canon there is no luxury of pick and choose, what is shown through the medium counts.
Second the cited line from Beyond reinforces the exact same line spoken in TNG by Picard, with a similiar line spoken by O'brien in DS9 and many little occasions conform with those. The prime and kelvin universes share the same core values, even though the KT is the much more martial version of universes.
Now regardless of whatever you may think about it, this is not pick and choose. This was said as exposition and as such is set in canonical stone. That means whatever Starfleet does and says, they do so while not being a military organisation. You point out that this doesn't work for all your RL examples which may be true, but that's irrelevant for a piece of written fiction that creates it's own rules. If you cannot bring enough fantasy to the table to make anything out of it that's one thing, it doesn't change canon though.
You keep repeating the question who defends the UFP as if this was some kind of valid argument. But it's unfortunately not. Starfleet does that. They're still not a military organisation. How can this work? Because the writing says so and you can read what a lot of people including myself pieced together to explain the nature of Starfleet by keeping canon intact. Your version relies on ignoring canon and as such is factually wrong for the kind of discussion we have. Real life is irrelevant. Only times I brought forth real life examples are to make it easier to follow as there are examples of RL paramilitaries fulfilling some of the same duties of Starfleet but of course the fact remains that there is no real life equivalent of a service like Starfleet.
Why militaries were disbanded in the UFP and replaced with a substitute like Starfleet also makes sense digging into the premise of the UFP and the combined service of Starfleet. Why an ex MACO gets a Starfleet comnand though is rather nonsensical, but it's still canon.
Maybe you see now that this discussion is not about the values we place on a mitary or politics. It's solely about a fictional service in a fictional show that follows rules set by that show.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Actually its been officially announced that the time shockwaves surrounding the Narada's incursion go back well before the day the Kelvin was destroyed .
Let me put things in simpler, less combative form. I'm ok with them saying "Star Fleet isn't a military organization". I'm a big supporter of writer intent. However, to do that they're throwing around an awful lot of 'societal-handwavium'. Like, 'not even trying' levels. Enemies on every side, but nah, we don't need anyone to train as professional warriors. Because being a soldier is just a hat you pull out of the closet and plop on your head when there's an army at your gate. Frankly Trek's social structures call for more suspension of disbelief than even their FTL, teleportation, magic bubble shields, and gravity carpeting. Particularly in light that many, many episodes and writers PLAINLY treat Star Fleet as a military force whenever they want to explore military themes, situations, and heap martial glory on our beloved crew members. Storytelling and world building are separate disciplines and this is hardly the first time Star Trek's world building has revealed itself as extremely haphazard on many, many fronts.
What I object to is the far from subtle undercurrent that getting rid of the military or making Star Fleet 'not military' despite operating in every way as the State's Armed Forces somehow makes it more enlightened and just plain better for it. That IS insulting. Having the movies revolve around back-to-back human war-mongers is starting to belabor the point. But I guess it's ok because its hitting those LGBT high notes and its not like it came out on Memorial Day, the one day a year anyone notices their military in this country.
@darthmeow504 I think you can save your breath. The most recent Trek movie speaks the very words that would end the debate, yet it's ignored by a certain part of the crowd because... just because. It's just the way it is.
And again you're not listening - in the Kelvin Timeline (in which Star Fleet has developed very differently and is a separate situation from the Prime Universe) I agree it's clearly put that "ooo, Star Fleet isn't a military". I'm not sure why you of all people would make that an argument for anything in the Prime Timeline...?
...I just want to know who IS the military in the KT-verse or if the writing for that particular bright cheery future does in fact hinge on the KT Federation being exempt from danger because of humanity's manifest destiny and poor writing? The implication that there is no military at all because right after having a war everyone decided they don't need a military (whuuh?) so military commanders were folded into Star Fleet leaves me standing around waiting for the rest of the thought or at least a little more detail on how something like that happens.
Okay, I guess I try it again.
First of all the cited instance is relevant for the prime timeline as the two timelines are identical up to ST09. That means the whole thing with MACOs, Starfleet and Edison happened like that in the prime universe as well. Do I personally think it works like that? No. I personally see the KT and PU thing differently. But that's my headcanon, my preferred version of things. Canon however works differently. When explicitly discussing canon there is no luxury of pick and choose, what is shown through the medium counts.
Second the cited line from Beyond reinforces the exact same line spoken in TNG by Picard, with a similiar line spoken by O'brien in DS9 and many little occasions conform with those. The prime and kelvin universes share the same core values, even though the KT is the much more martial version of universes.
Now regardless of whatever you may think about it, this is not pick and choose. This was said as exposition and as such is set in canonical stone. That means whatever Starfleet does and says, they do so while not being a military organisation. You point out that this doesn't work for all your RL examples which may be true, but that's irrelevant for a piece of written fiction that creates it's own rules. If you cannot bring enough fantasy to the table to make anything out of it that's one thing, it doesn't change canon though.
You keep repeating the question who defends the UFP as if this was some kind of valid argument. But it's unfortunately not. Starfleet does that. They're still not a military organisation. How can this work? Because the writing says so and you can read what a lot of people including myself pieced together to explain the nature of Starfleet by keeping canon intact. Your version relies on ignoring canon and as such is factually wrong for the kind of discussion we have. Real life is irrelevant. Only times I brought forth real life examples are to make it easier to follow as there are examples of RL paramilitaries fulfilling some of the same duties of Starfleet but of course the fact remains that there is no real life equivalent of a service like Starfleet.
Why militaries were disbanded in the UFP and replaced with a substitute like Starfleet also makes sense digging into the premise of the UFP and the combined service of Starfleet. Why an ex MACO gets a Starfleet comnand though is rather nonsensical, but it's still canon.
Maybe you see now that this discussion is not about the values we place on a mitary or politics. It's solely about a fictional service in a fictional show that follows rules set by that show.
If you're going to insist that the character statements that Starfleet is not military are true, then the only other explanation is poor writing from screenwriters who don't have a single clue what a military is, because literally every single thing Starfleet does is military.
I didnt follow the whole topic, so please bare with me.
What I do not understand is the apparent need to prove Starfleet a military force.
Sure they are structured like a naval force , and they are the armed forces of starfleet. In that sence , yes they are a military. But they dont claim to be one. And there are points to that as well.
They see themselfs as a scientific fleet, meant for exploration and diplomacy. Most of the characters shown in the shows donts see themself as soldiers. And there are alot, and i think even the majority of people shown on those ships, are either civilians or only loosly conected to military opperations.
However, it makes sence that Starfleet has a Defense branch that is represented on all or most of their ships. At least those that go into unknown space.
Basic combat training for the crews might be mandatory to some extend but i think most crewman would be considered a reserve force in most circumstances. People who had basic combat training, not unlike most security or police forces would get. Officers would get more extensiv training as well as those purly dedicated to the defense branch of starfleet.
Additional Forces like marines could also be drawn from member worlds if need be.
Considering onscreen dialog I`ve come to the conclusion that Starfleet itself is not considered a military per se, but it certeinly has a military branch that overlaps with scientific or diplomatic duties when it comes to command and security officers of other branches within the fleet.
Comming back to the need to prove it a military force... What for? Starfleet as as militaristic or nonmilitaristic as the plot commands.
I dont feel the necessity to make everything organized in sci fi a military. With all the respect I have for all those dedicated enough to put their own life on the line for others, I still wish for all of them that they never have to do it. And to those who already had to risk their life, lost comrades and friends and/or sufferd injuries , either in combat or other forms of servce, I hope you get the respect and care you need.
That said, I pity that we still have a need for military forces in our time. And while I do like my sci fi pew pew as much as the next guy, it doesnt make it cooler or inherently better just because it is attached to some fictional military.
I love the look of Fighter planes, I would love to drive a tank through thick brushes and i can appriciate a loud boom from firing guns as much as most guys. However I do not feel the wish to use them for the purpose for wich they are built for, wich basicly is making things dead as efficiently as possible/affordable.
I agree that sometimes there is need for them. But still thats not what makes them cool or good. They are, for a lack of a better term, a necessary evil.
And I am glad that at least in Star Trek not everyone is a soldier.
I didnt follow the whole topic, so please bare with me.
What I do not understand is the apparent need to prove Starfleet a military force.
Sure they are structured like a naval force , and they are the armed forces of starfleet. In that sence , yes they are a military. But they dont claim to be one. And there are points to that as well.
They see themselfs as a scientific fleet, meant for exploration and diplomacy. Most of the characters shown in the shows donts see themself as soldiers. And there are alot, and i think even the majority of people shown on those ships, are either civilians or only loosly conected to military opperations.
However, it makes sence that Starfleet has a Defense branch that is represented on all or most of their ships. At least those that go into unknown space.
Basic combat training for the crews might be mandatory to some extend but i think most crewman would be considered a reserve force in most circumstances. People who had basic combat training, not unlike most security or police forces would get. Officers would get more extensiv training as well as those purly dedicated to the defense branch of starfleet.
Additional Forces like marines could also be drawn from member worlds if need be.
Considering onscreen dialog I`ve come to the conclusion that Starfleet itself is not considered a military per se, but it certeinly has a military branch that overlaps with scientific or diplomatic duties when it comes to command and security officers of other branches within the fleet.
Comming back to the need to prove it a military force... What for? Starfleet as as militaristic or nonmilitaristic as the plot commands.
I dont feel the necessity to make everything organized in sci fi a military. With all the respect I have for all those dedicated enough to put their own life on the line for others, I still wish for all of them that they never have to do it. And to those who already had to risk their life, lost comrades and friends and/or sufferd injuries , either in combat or other forms of servce, I hope you get the respect and care you need.
That said, I pity that we still have a need for military forces in our time. And while I do like my sci fi pew pew as much as the next guy, it doesnt make it cooler or inherently better just because it is attached to some fictional military.
I love the look of Fighter planes, I would love to drive a tank through thick brushes and i can appriciate a loud boom from firing guns as much as most guys. However I do not feel the wish to use them for the purpose for wich they are built for, wich basicly is making things dead as efficiently as possible/affordable.
I agree that sometimes there is need for them. But still thats not what makes them cool or good. They are, for a lack of a better term, a necessary evil.
And I am glad that at least in Star Trek not everyone is a soldier.
I'm just going to stop you right here and tell you what Starfleet is. It's basically the end result of NASA joining with the US Navy and forming a new organism.
It's that simple.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I didnt follow the whole topic, so please bare with me.
What I do not understand is the apparent need to prove Starfleet a military force.
Sure they are structured like a naval force , and they are the armed forces of starfleet. In that sence , yes they are a military. But they dont claim to be one. And there are points to that as well.
They see themselfs as a scientific fleet, meant for exploration and diplomacy. Most of the characters shown in the shows donts see themself as soldiers. And there are alot, and i think even the majority of people shown on those ships, are either civilians or only loosly conected to military opperations.
However, it makes sence that Starfleet has a Defense branch that is represented on all or most of their ships. At least those that go into unknown space.
Basic combat training for the crews might be mandatory to some extend but i think most crewman would be considered a reserve force in most circumstances. People who had basic combat training, not unlike most security or police forces would get. Officers would get more extensiv training as well as those purly dedicated to the defense branch of starfleet.
Additional Forces like marines could also be drawn from member worlds if need be.
Considering onscreen dialog I`ve come to the conclusion that Starfleet itself is not considered a military per se, but it certeinly has a military branch that overlaps with scientific or diplomatic duties when it comes to command and security officers of other branches within the fleet.
Comming back to the need to prove it a military force... What for? Starfleet as as militaristic or nonmilitaristic as the plot commands.
I dont feel the necessity to make everything organized in sci fi a military. With all the respect I have for all those dedicated enough to put their own life on the line for others, I still wish for all of them that they never have to do it. And to those who already had to risk their life, lost comrades and friends and/or sufferd injuries , either in combat or other forms of servce, I hope you get the respect and care you need.
That said, I pity that we still have a need for military forces in our time. And while I do like my sci fi pew pew as much as the next guy, it doesnt make it cooler or inherently better just because it is attached to some fictional military.
I love the look of Fighter planes, I would love to drive a tank through thick brushes and i can appriciate a loud boom from firing guns as much as most guys. However I do not feel the wish to use them for the purpose for wich they are built for, wich basicly is making things dead as efficiently as possible/affordable.
I agree that sometimes there is need for them. But still thats not what makes them cool or good. They are, for a lack of a better term, a necessary evil.
And I am glad that at least in Star Trek not everyone is a soldier.
Not everyone in the military is a frontline soldier either. You know what admin does? Basically HR type stuff, they just wear utilities to work, and there's plenty of other military jobs that do not involve combat. Also, there are no civilians in Starfleet, there are civilian researchers who work with Starfleet, just like modern military, and Starfleet allowing officers to bring families onboard starships is a natural evolution of current military policy that allows service members to bring family with them when stationed overseas in a non-combat zone.
I didnt follow the whole topic, so please bare with me.
What I do not understand is the apparent need to prove Starfleet a military force.
Sure they are structured like a naval force , and they are the armed forces of starfleet. In that sence , yes they are a military. But they dont claim to be one. And there are points to that as well.
They see themselfs as a scientific fleet, meant for exploration and diplomacy. Most of the characters shown in the shows donts see themself as soldiers. And there are alot, and i think even the majority of people shown on those ships, are either civilians or only loosly conected to military opperations.
However, it makes sence that Starfleet has a Defense branch that is represented on all or most of their ships. At least those that go into unknown space.
Basic combat training for the crews might be mandatory to some extend but i think most crewman would be considered a reserve force in most circumstances. People who had basic combat training, not unlike most security or police forces would get. Officers would get more extensiv training as well as those purly dedicated to the defense branch of starfleet.
Additional Forces like marines could also be drawn from member worlds if need be.
Considering onscreen dialog I`ve come to the conclusion that Starfleet itself is not considered a military per se, but it certeinly has a military branch that overlaps with scientific or diplomatic duties when it comes to command and security officers of other branches within the fleet.
Comming back to the need to prove it a military force... What for? Starfleet as as militaristic or nonmilitaristic as the plot commands.
I dont feel the necessity to make everything organized in sci fi a military. With all the respect I have for all those dedicated enough to put their own life on the line for others, I still wish for all of them that they never have to do it. And to those who already had to risk their life, lost comrades and friends and/or sufferd injuries , either in combat or other forms of servce, I hope you get the respect and care you need.
That said, I pity that we still have a need for military forces in our time. And while I do like my sci fi pew pew as much as the next guy, it doesnt make it cooler or inherently better just because it is attached to some fictional military.
I love the look of Fighter planes, I would love to drive a tank through thick brushes and i can appriciate a loud boom from firing guns as much as most guys. However I do not feel the wish to use them for the purpose for wich they are built for, wich basicly is making things dead as efficiently as possible/affordable.
I agree that sometimes there is need for them. But still thats not what makes them cool or good. They are, for a lack of a better term, a necessary evil.
And I am glad that at least in Star Trek not everyone is a soldier.
Not everyone in the military is a frontline soldier either. You know what admin does? Basically HR type stuff, they just wear utilities to work, and there's plenty of other military jobs that do not involve combat. Also, there are no civilians in Starfleet, there are civilian researchers who work with Starfleet, just like modern military, and Starfleet allowing officers to bring families onboard starships is a natural evolution of current military policy that allows service members to bring family with them when stationed overseas in a non-combat zone.
Case in point - I was in the USAF in the mid-'80s. I worked in an office building - sure, it was an office building whose uppermost floor was two stories below ground, but the only difference between it and the nearby above-ground building was that they had windows and we didn't. I sat at a desk all day, working on software for a big ol' IBM mainframe - big difference between this and working at a bank was that we all wore the same outfit, with a medium-blue shirt and dark blue slacks and tie (well, that and we worked with planning nuclear war, rather than next quarter's investments).
I was in the military - technically. But I had office hours, and weekends off, and the only time I handled a firearm in the line of duty was in basic training. I ran PT twice a year (fitness test - for some reason, we had to be able to run a mile and a half in twelve minutes, even though at our base if you were a mile and a half from cover and the base came under attack you were dead anyway). At the nearby hospital, there were people with officer insignia whose only concern was tending to the health of their patients, and in some cases doing research on treatments for medical conditions. Not a lot of what you might think of as "soldiering" going on there, other than saluting superiors and saying "sir" a lot.
I didnt follow the whole topic, so please bare with me.
What I do not understand is the apparent need to prove Starfleet a military force.
Sure they are structured like a naval force , and they are the armed forces of starfleet. In that sence , yes they are a military. But they dont claim to be one. And there are points to that as well.
They see themselfs as a scientific fleet, meant for exploration and diplomacy. Most of the characters shown in the shows donts see themself as soldiers. And there are alot, and i think even the majority of people shown on those ships, are either civilians or only loosly conected to military opperations.
However, it makes sence that Starfleet has a Defense branch that is represented on all or most of their ships. At least those that go into unknown space.
Basic combat training for the crews might be mandatory to some extend but i think most crewman would be considered a reserve force in most circumstances. People who had basic combat training, not unlike most security or police forces would get. Officers would get more extensiv training as well as those purly dedicated to the defense branch of starfleet.
Additional Forces like marines could also be drawn from member worlds if need be.
Considering onscreen dialog I`ve come to the conclusion that Starfleet itself is not considered a military per se, but it certeinly has a military branch that overlaps with scientific or diplomatic duties when it comes to command and security officers of other branches within the fleet.
Comming back to the need to prove it a military force... What for? Starfleet as as militaristic or nonmilitaristic as the plot commands.
I dont feel the necessity to make everything organized in sci fi a military. With all the respect I have for all those dedicated enough to put their own life on the line for others, I still wish for all of them that they never have to do it. And to those who already had to risk their life, lost comrades and friends and/or sufferd injuries , either in combat or other forms of servce, I hope you get the respect and care you need.
That said, I pity that we still have a need for military forces in our time. And while I do like my sci fi pew pew as much as the next guy, it doesnt make it cooler or inherently better just because it is attached to some fictional military.
I love the look of Fighter planes, I would love to drive a tank through thick brushes and i can appriciate a loud boom from firing guns as much as most guys. However I do not feel the wish to use them for the purpose for wich they are built for, wich basicly is making things dead as efficiently as possible/affordable.
I agree that sometimes there is need for them. But still thats not what makes them cool or good. They are, for a lack of a better term, a necessary evil.
And I am glad that at least in Star Trek not everyone is a soldier.
Not everyone in the military is a frontline soldier either. You know what admin does? Basically HR type stuff, they just wear utilities to work, and there's plenty of other military jobs that do not involve combat. Also, there are no civilians in Starfleet, there are civilian researchers who work with Starfleet, just like modern military, and Starfleet allowing officers to bring families onboard starships is a natural evolution of current military policy that allows service members to bring family with them when stationed overseas in a non-combat zone.
Case in point - I was in the USAF in the mid-'80s. I worked in an office building - sure, it was an office building whose uppermost floor was two stories below ground, but the only difference between it and the nearby above-ground building was that they had windows and we didn't. I sat at a desk all day, working on software for a big ol' IBM mainframe - big difference between this and working at a bank was that we all wore the same outfit, with a medium-blue shirt and dark blue slacks and tie (well, that and we worked with planning nuclear war, rather than next quarter's investments).
I was in the military - technically. But I had office hours, and weekends off, and the only time I handled a firearm in the line of duty was in basic training. I ran PT twice a year (fitness test - for some reason, we had to be able to run a mile and a half in twelve minutes, even though at our base if you were a mile and a half from cover and the base came under attack you were dead anyway). At the nearby hospital, there were people with officer insignia whose only concern was tending to the health of their patients, and in some cases doing research on treatments for medical conditions. Not a lot of what you might think of as "soldiering" going on there, other than saluting superiors and saying "sir" a lot.
Well first off you were in the chairborn rangers(Marine here). But hell I was a US Marine in the SIGINT community. Wore my hear long as regs allowed, generally called a civilian in a Marine uniform.
Plenty of admin, supply etc. Every marine might be a rifleman, but not every rifleman is called to the front.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Directive 010: "Before engaging alien species in battle, any and all attempts to make first contact and achieve nonmilitary resolution must be made."
Why would you even need to say that? Unless many of your captains DON'T think of themselves as diplomats first and foremost. I guess some of the 'explorers' were a little too eager to open up discussions with a hail of phaser fire .
Personally I think it is the most effective technique, but if you insist we have tea and crumpets.....
Support the movement! Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are. Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
What profession have the majority of NASA's Astronauts, and all of the commanders/pilots, come from?
Whats the percentage of non-combatants, including scientists amd researchers, make up the current military when compared to the military of 300 years ago? Would people of that time consider much of the non-combatant roles as a "martial" profession?
Why wouldnt a military vessel in the future, that will spend most of its time patrolling the frontier NOT be equipped and tasked with scientific exploration and diplomacy? Wouldnt it make sence for it to have those roles when diplomats and scientists would take a longer time to get to where they are needed than the window of thier most effective impact would be? The front line ships and crews should be equipped to handle most of the situations, until a fully dedicated group can make it on scene.
As far as Picard and O'Briens statements, I'd say that the evolution of what a military is, at the time of TNG, has given them as much of the luxury of making statements like that, as the basic perception of the current USAF enlisted cadres have of being exposed to front line combat. Basically, 95% of the Air Force waves as the other 5% does the actual combat. Its not a slight to the non-combatant airmen/airwomen just an insignt on how technical much of the military is and will become.
I would suggest that the perspective of a "traditional military" is versus the military of the 24th century has changed so much, that members of its own service dont even see it as a military any more.
So if a group of Medical Experts, operating near an active conflicts finds itself forced to use weaponry to defend their patients... do they become Soldiers? Or Medical Experts with a gun defending their beliefs and people under their care?
So if a group of Medical Experts, operating near an active conflicts finds itself forced to use weaponry to defend their patients... do they become Soldiers? Or Medical Experts with a gun defending their beliefs and people under their care?
This really isn't that hard to parse - Are they part of an organization that is their nation's instrument of war? If yes then they are 'military' whether they ever take up arms in their entire career, and if no then odds are good they're so much chopped meat/victims waiting to happen and don't magically become soldiers just because they have guns. ANY actual soldier will tell you its not holding or even using a weapon that makes them a soldier. It's the discipline, the obedience to command, the esprit de corps, and the mental and physical preparation for conflict.
That's actually at the root of the disconnect going on here - that people think that Star Fleet officers just magically transform into hardened warriors on the spot when threatened. It doesn't work that way, and the considerable acumen they do display when fighting breaks out points directly to an enormous amount of training and preparation off-camera. Attack Pattern Riker III didn't just write itself.
But all of those are really no arguments in this case. The personnel is trained, there is even a Starfleet Tactical department and of course being battle ready is something every Starfleet officer is, Picard was a acclaimed battlefield commander (the same man that knows Starfleet is not meant to be a military). But that's still not what makes them military. You just refuse to let go of real life definitions for a fictional thing set hundreds of years in the future made up of hundreds of alien cultures. And none of the things you list is exclusive for soldiers.
You are comitting the same fallacy you claim other people do - you seem to assume that only your military is on peak preparedness and full of unwavering comraderie and suggest everything not falling into this class is unable to understand that and automatically lacks those characteristics.
Militaries across the globe do not function the same. I doubt North Korean militaries perform deep sea research for example. Some militaries have adopted more side duties and may have subjectively "evolved" - consider Starfleet has evolved to a point further beyond that, putting military duties actually on the side next to their primary ones which obviously works just fine as canon proves.
A military is not a humanitarian organisation, no matter if their resources are used for desaster relief or humanitarian missions. A military is not a scientific organisation, despite providing their resources to perform research and a military is not a construction firm despite the US Corps of Engineers having a lot of civilian employees that just build infrastructure on stuff in the US. The mindset behind having a military and it's primary mission profile is different than behind Starfleet which is not a military, despite being able and willing to defend the UFP. It is not a military despite being prepared to end conflicts and the UFP is still a pacifistic society even though it is willing to fight. Defense is of course a pressing matter because if you go out analyzing a nebula instead of defending yourself there is nothing left to analyze later on. But Starfleet, which started out completely unarmed until they discovered space is dangerous, hasn't changed it's function and mission profile drastically since ENT days. They explore, research, colonize while using sophisticated technology and a huge fleet made up of hundreds of worlds who disbanded their militaries for a combined and unified service based on a enlightened and scientific credo (Ex Astris, scientia) that is however due to the resources and space it operates in on site and able to defend the UFP.
You just have to turn around the premises in mission profile and understand the mindset that goes with it. This doesn't make Starfleet "lesser", this doesn't discredit RL militaries and people working for them, it's not about politics. It's about a fictional show and a fictional organization that tried to paint a specific picture about a specific society.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But Starfleet, which started out completely unarmed until they discovered space is dangerous, hasn't changed it's function and mission profile drastically since ENT days. They explore, research, colonize while using sophisticated technology and a huge fleet made up of hundreds of worlds who disbanded their militaries for a combined and unified service based on a enlightened and scientific credo (Ex Astris, scientia) that is however due to the resources and space it operates in on site and able to defend the UFP.
Exactly. Starfleet's role has expanded to allow it to continue to thrive and expand, by being able to defend, and as a part of the Federation's diplomatic role, offer their protection to species seeking membership. They are there to ensure the safety of it's members.
It's defense and militarisation born of necessity, as although the Federation seeks peace and enlightenment, they are wise enough to realise not everyone shares this philosophy, so must have a miltary capable of defending themselves.
It's defense and militarisation born of necessity, as although the Federation seeks peace and enlightenment, they are wise enough to realise not everyone shares this philosophy, so must have a miltary capable of defending themselves.
It is and they're not morons. But it doesn'T change the fact that this service is not a military orgaisation, sometimes I think people assume I or other make this up but it is written in the source material. As such, to characterise Starfleet, "not a military" is the base assumption necessary to do so. From there on nobody denies they perform military tasks but what is said in canon is still said in canon. Literally nothing but a ew canon source retconning these numerous statements out of existence will change that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It's defense and militarisation born of necessity, as although the Federation seeks peace and enlightenment, they are wise enough to realise not everyone shares this philosophy, so must have a miltary capable of defending themselves.
It is and they're not morons. But it doesn'T change the fact that this service is not a military orgaisation, sometimes I think people assume I or other make this up but it is written in the source material. As such, to characterise Starfleet, "not a military" is the base assumption necessary to do so. From there on nobody denies they perform military tasks but what is said in canon is still said in canon. Literally nothing but a ew canon source retconning these numerous statements out of existence will change that.
I'm not sure what to say then.
Military is just a word to me, and if something performs the role of a military then it must be so. "A rose by any other name, is still a rose.", so to speak- if Starfleet is designed to defend the Federation, regardless of it's other functions, then it is still the Federation's military.
If Picard (and the writers) were attempting to create a dilineation between what a military is, and Starfleet, then much more information was needed to make this more than a "because I said so".
Comments
The problem with canon is that Star Trek has had people say Star fleet is a military and isn't a military.
It is my belief that Star fleet is a military. I see it in the small things in Star Trek. When Riker makes Geordi 'pop tall' when giving an official report in 'TNG' pilot...I see it.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
(Then, of course, my mind starts wandering to a bit from Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, when Superman is reminiscing about the Congressional hearings superhumans were being forced to attend, and Batman's response to them: "You just laughed that scary laugh of yours. 'Of course we're criminals,' you said. 'We've always been criminals. We have to be criminals.'")
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I think it's stuck in minds, as @darthmeow504 is mentioning, as a primarily military organization when people are saying military - with its main dedication as the Federation's defense force versus it being a science arm of the Federation which also includes defensive duties.
And there's the tall ships ethos, of course, back in the original series - with ships on long-distance missions isolated for long periods of time with the Captain as god.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
One line does not make it so, when everything in canon points to that line being incorrect. If Sulu said the outer hull of the Enterprise was green, would that make it true when you can see with your own eyes that it is not?
I see what you did there!
/thread
And again you're not listening - in the Kelvin Timeline (in which Star Fleet has developed very differently and is a separate situation from the Prime Universe) I agree it's clearly put that "ooo, Star Fleet isn't a military". I'm not sure why you of all people would make that an argument for anything in the Prime Timeline...?
...I just want to know who IS the military in the KT-verse or if the writing for that particular bright cheery future does in fact hinge on the KT Federation being exempt from danger because of humanity's manifest destiny and poor writing? The implication that there is no military at all because right after having a war everyone decided they don't need a military (whuuh?) so military commanders were folded into Star Fleet leaves me standing around waiting for the rest of the thought or at least a little more detail on how something like that happens.
I think this is the crux of the issue between fans.
Now we know Starfleet has been both said to be military and not. Soldiers and explorers. But not by the same people
So how about a wider angle look?
The way I see it. (With some help from this argument in the previous thread) Starfleet is the joint patrol organization made by the founders of the Federation. Tellarite engineering, Andorian weapons, Human warp drives, Vulcan science. Melded together to make a greater whole than any one founder had alone. Initial role, to bring the founding races together and help police them. When outsiders came they might be greater than one member race's ships. But not the unified Star Fleet. So in Kirk's time they patrolled. Exploring when they could but always keeping an eye out for trouble because trouble was there. Into the movies this was the basic theme. Well endowed multi-role ships doing what ever needed doing. By Undiscovered Country the greatest threat to the peace of the Federation had a catastrophe and sued for peace. And the seeds were planted. The next Enterprise was a bigger better vessel of the same role and ideology as her predecessor. But she had been preplanned that way. By the C while good at fighting it did not seem to be a role she had to keep in the fore of her repertoire. By the time of Picard and the D, it was a time of great peace. Ships were retooled to include families. Starfleet hung up her war readiness with a smile and hugged her children. Then came the borg and the Dominion. And suddenly the finally at peace Federation is running back to conducting a war. And her ships started to look it.
Starfleet is the protective arm of the Federation. They treat the term military as a dirty word because it connotes the ugly nature of war. As Kirk demonstrated however in A Taste of Armageddon, war should be ugly. That is why you avoid it.
Is Starfleet the military of the Federation? In my opinion. Yes, when it has to be.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Okay, I guess I try it again.
First of all the cited instance is relevant for the prime timeline as the two timelines are identical up to ST09. That means the whole thing with MACOs, Starfleet and Edison happened like that in the prime universe as well. Do I personally think it works like that? No. I personally see the KT and PU thing differently. But that's my headcanon, my preferred version of things. Canon however works differently. When explicitly discussing canon there is no luxury of pick and choose, what is shown through the medium counts.
Second the cited line from Beyond reinforces the exact same line spoken in TNG by Picard, with a similiar line spoken by O'brien in DS9 and many little occasions conform with those. The prime and kelvin universes share the same core values, even though the KT is the much more martial version of universes.
Now regardless of whatever you may think about it, this is not pick and choose. This was said as exposition and as such is set in canonical stone. That means whatever Starfleet does and says, they do so while not being a military organisation. You point out that this doesn't work for all your RL examples which may be true, but that's irrelevant for a piece of written fiction that creates it's own rules. If you cannot bring enough fantasy to the table to make anything out of it that's one thing, it doesn't change canon though.
You keep repeating the question who defends the UFP as if this was some kind of valid argument. But it's unfortunately not. Starfleet does that. They're still not a military organisation. How can this work? Because the writing says so and you can read what a lot of people including myself pieced together to explain the nature of Starfleet by keeping canon intact. Your version relies on ignoring canon and as such is factually wrong for the kind of discussion we have. Real life is irrelevant. Only times I brought forth real life examples are to make it easier to follow as there are examples of RL paramilitaries fulfilling some of the same duties of Starfleet but of course the fact remains that there is no real life equivalent of a service like Starfleet.
Why militaries were disbanded in the UFP and replaced with a substitute like Starfleet also makes sense digging into the premise of the UFP and the combined service of Starfleet. Why an ex MACO gets a Starfleet comnand though is rather nonsensical, but it's still canon.
Maybe you see now that this discussion is not about the values we place on a mitary or politics. It's solely about a fictional service in a fictional show that follows rules set by that show.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
What I object to is the far from subtle undercurrent that getting rid of the military or making Star Fleet 'not military' despite operating in every way as the State's Armed Forces somehow makes it more enlightened and just plain better for it. That IS insulting. Having the movies revolve around back-to-back human war-mongers is starting to belabor the point. But I guess it's ok because its hitting those LGBT high notes and its not like it came out on Memorial Day, the one day a year anyone notices their military in this country.
If you're going to insist that the character statements that Starfleet is not military are true, then the only other explanation is poor writing from screenwriters who don't have a single clue what a military is, because literally every single thing Starfleet does is military.
What I do not understand is the apparent need to prove Starfleet a military force.
Sure they are structured like a naval force , and they are the armed forces of starfleet. In that sence , yes they are a military. But they dont claim to be one. And there are points to that as well.
They see themselfs as a scientific fleet, meant for exploration and diplomacy. Most of the characters shown in the shows donts see themself as soldiers. And there are alot, and i think even the majority of people shown on those ships, are either civilians or only loosly conected to military opperations.
However, it makes sence that Starfleet has a Defense branch that is represented on all or most of their ships. At least those that go into unknown space.
Basic combat training for the crews might be mandatory to some extend but i think most crewman would be considered a reserve force in most circumstances. People who had basic combat training, not unlike most security or police forces would get. Officers would get more extensiv training as well as those purly dedicated to the defense branch of starfleet.
Additional Forces like marines could also be drawn from member worlds if need be.
Considering onscreen dialog I`ve come to the conclusion that Starfleet itself is not considered a military per se, but it certeinly has a military branch that overlaps with scientific or diplomatic duties when it comes to command and security officers of other branches within the fleet.
Comming back to the need to prove it a military force... What for? Starfleet as as militaristic or nonmilitaristic as the plot commands.
I dont feel the necessity to make everything organized in sci fi a military. With all the respect I have for all those dedicated enough to put their own life on the line for others, I still wish for all of them that they never have to do it. And to those who already had to risk their life, lost comrades and friends and/or sufferd injuries , either in combat or other forms of servce, I hope you get the respect and care you need.
That said, I pity that we still have a need for military forces in our time. And while I do like my sci fi pew pew as much as the next guy, it doesnt make it cooler or inherently better just because it is attached to some fictional military.
I love the look of Fighter planes, I would love to drive a tank through thick brushes and i can appriciate a loud boom from firing guns as much as most guys. However I do not feel the wish to use them for the purpose for wich they are built for, wich basicly is making things dead as efficiently as possible/affordable.
I agree that sometimes there is need for them. But still thats not what makes them cool or good. They are, for a lack of a better term, a necessary evil.
And I am glad that at least in Star Trek not everyone is a soldier.
I'm just going to stop you right here and tell you what Starfleet is. It's basically the end result of NASA joining with the US Navy and forming a new organism.
It's that simple.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
"I can't wait to get me hands on her ample nacelles, if you'll pardon the engineering parlance."
Not everyone in the military is a frontline soldier either. You know what admin does? Basically HR type stuff, they just wear utilities to work, and there's plenty of other military jobs that do not involve combat. Also, there are no civilians in Starfleet, there are civilian researchers who work with Starfleet, just like modern military, and Starfleet allowing officers to bring families onboard starships is a natural evolution of current military policy that allows service members to bring family with them when stationed overseas in a non-combat zone.
I was in the military - technically. But I had office hours, and weekends off, and the only time I handled a firearm in the line of duty was in basic training. I ran PT twice a year (fitness test - for some reason, we had to be able to run a mile and a half in twelve minutes, even though at our base if you were a mile and a half from cover and the base came under attack you were dead anyway). At the nearby hospital, there were people with officer insignia whose only concern was tending to the health of their patients, and in some cases doing research on treatments for medical conditions. Not a lot of what you might think of as "soldiering" going on there, other than saluting superiors and saying "sir" a lot.
Well first off you were in the chairborn rangers(Marine here). But hell I was a US Marine in the SIGINT community. Wore my hear long as regs allowed, generally called a civilian in a Marine uniform.
Plenty of admin, supply etc. Every marine might be a rifleman, but not every rifleman is called to the front.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Personally I think it is the most effective technique, but if you insist we have tea and crumpets.....
Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
What profession have the majority of NASA's Astronauts, and all of the commanders/pilots, come from?
Whats the percentage of non-combatants, including scientists amd researchers, make up the current military when compared to the military of 300 years ago? Would people of that time consider much of the non-combatant roles as a "martial" profession?
Why wouldnt a military vessel in the future, that will spend most of its time patrolling the frontier NOT be equipped and tasked with scientific exploration and diplomacy? Wouldnt it make sence for it to have those roles when diplomats and scientists would take a longer time to get to where they are needed than the window of thier most effective impact would be? The front line ships and crews should be equipped to handle most of the situations, until a fully dedicated group can make it on scene.
As far as Picard and O'Briens statements, I'd say that the evolution of what a military is, at the time of TNG, has given them as much of the luxury of making statements like that, as the basic perception of the current USAF enlisted cadres have of being exposed to front line combat. Basically, 95% of the Air Force waves as the other 5% does the actual combat. Its not a slight to the non-combatant airmen/airwomen just an insignt on how technical much of the military is and will become.
I would suggest that the perspective of a "traditional military" is versus the military of the 24th century has changed so much, that members of its own service dont even see it as a military any more.
This really isn't that hard to parse - Are they part of an organization that is their nation's instrument of war? If yes then they are 'military' whether they ever take up arms in their entire career, and if no then odds are good they're so much chopped meat/victims waiting to happen and don't magically become soldiers just because they have guns. ANY actual soldier will tell you its not holding or even using a weapon that makes them a soldier. It's the discipline, the obedience to command, the esprit de corps, and the mental and physical preparation for conflict.
That's actually at the root of the disconnect going on here - that people think that Star Fleet officers just magically transform into hardened warriors on the spot when threatened. It doesn't work that way, and the considerable acumen they do display when fighting breaks out points directly to an enormous amount of training and preparation off-camera. Attack Pattern Riker III didn't just write itself.
You are comitting the same fallacy you claim other people do - you seem to assume that only your military is on peak preparedness and full of unwavering comraderie and suggest everything not falling into this class is unable to understand that and automatically lacks those characteristics.
Militaries across the globe do not function the same. I doubt North Korean militaries perform deep sea research for example. Some militaries have adopted more side duties and may have subjectively "evolved" - consider Starfleet has evolved to a point further beyond that, putting military duties actually on the side next to their primary ones which obviously works just fine as canon proves.
A military is not a humanitarian organisation, no matter if their resources are used for desaster relief or humanitarian missions. A military is not a scientific organisation, despite providing their resources to perform research and a military is not a construction firm despite the US Corps of Engineers having a lot of civilian employees that just build infrastructure on stuff in the US. The mindset behind having a military and it's primary mission profile is different than behind Starfleet which is not a military, despite being able and willing to defend the UFP. It is not a military despite being prepared to end conflicts and the UFP is still a pacifistic society even though it is willing to fight. Defense is of course a pressing matter because if you go out analyzing a nebula instead of defending yourself there is nothing left to analyze later on. But Starfleet, which started out completely unarmed until they discovered space is dangerous, hasn't changed it's function and mission profile drastically since ENT days. They explore, research, colonize while using sophisticated technology and a huge fleet made up of hundreds of worlds who disbanded their militaries for a combined and unified service based on a enlightened and scientific credo (Ex Astris, scientia) that is however due to the resources and space it operates in on site and able to defend the UFP.
You just have to turn around the premises in mission profile and understand the mindset that goes with it. This doesn't make Starfleet "lesser", this doesn't discredit RL militaries and people working for them, it's not about politics. It's about a fictional show and a fictional organization that tried to paint a specific picture about a specific society.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Exactly. Starfleet's role has expanded to allow it to continue to thrive and expand, by being able to defend, and as a part of the Federation's diplomatic role, offer their protection to species seeking membership. They are there to ensure the safety of it's members.
It's defense and militarisation born of necessity, as although the Federation seeks peace and enlightenment, they are wise enough to realise not everyone shares this philosophy, so must have a miltary capable of defending themselves.
It is and they're not morons. But it doesn'T change the fact that this service is not a military orgaisation, sometimes I think people assume I or other make this up but it is written in the source material. As such, to characterise Starfleet, "not a military" is the base assumption necessary to do so. From there on nobody denies they perform military tasks but what is said in canon is still said in canon. Literally nothing but a ew canon source retconning these numerous statements out of existence will change that.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I'm not sure what to say then.
Military is just a word to me, and if something performs the role of a military then it must be so. "A rose by any other name, is still a rose.", so to speak- if Starfleet is designed to defend the Federation, regardless of it's other functions, then it is still the Federation's military.
If Picard (and the writers) were attempting to create a dilineation between what a military is, and Starfleet, then much more information was needed to make this more than a "because I said so".