Just because one uses DPS as part of a measuring stick for their effectiveness, that doesn't mean anything other than they're looking at how effective they are. Anyone with half a brain knows that a sci is likely shortening a run of [whatever], which boosts the DPS of everyone in the team (including the sci captain).
I'm curious as to what other method exists to see how well one is performing, besides using a parser. When I look at my parses, I'm trying to figure out if using [x] was worth getting rid of [y]. With the ridiculous amount of power creep being sold, it's really not hard to break 10k DPS. Like, not at all.
And, if you don't care about how effective you are, why do you care if people parse? Obviously, one shouldn't be so self absorbed that they both disregard how effective their build is, AND join something with a difficulty level called "Advanced" or "Elite." As far as I know, no one is parsing FEs or Normal queues. That would be complete, unadulterated hypocrisy, at best.
For what it's worth, I play sci captains almost exclusively, and never, not once, has anyone seriously poked fun at my choice of captain, my role on a team, or my intelligence for not choosing "max dps wtf play tac" in any DPS channel. Ever. Well, unless they were just ribbing me in a good natured way. I'm not after 100k DPS, either, and I've never seen anyone who is the same get made fun of for that, either.
This "zomg teh dps community kicked my dog and stole my lunch money" nonsense is old, and, frankly, ridiculous. If you don't like how the Advanced and Elite queues are, probably direct your attention to those that designed them. I would think that should go without saying. Don't blame the people taking time from playing to answer a myriad of questions over and over ad nauseum just to help people (who are asking) be more effective.
the dps-community is not bad or good. the fact is that you must share their point of view; this is why i left the dps channels (all of them). when 10k players are bashed by 30k or more dps players, in the 10k dps channel, then something goes wrong.
the anti-dps community is not bad or good. the fact is that you must share their point of view. when players are bashed because they don't have exactly the same point of view, then something goes wrong.
I agree with @sinn74 and @ruinthefun. The DPS community has been very helpful and very kind to me even when I was still a newbie. I learned a lot by asking them and studying the builds they published and most of all by flying with them. Even as a sci captain, flying a sci ship and flying a build that doesn't use FAW, none of them have offered anything else but helpful advice.
Even the worst of the DPS community isn't anywhere near as hostile as some of the anti-DPS'ers or anti-PVP'ers here in the forum. And usually, the worst of the DPS community isn't even high up the DPS ladder in the first place. A lot of the people who got themselves up in the top of the DPS charts got there through the help of players before them, and it seems that they are happy to pass the knowledge gained over their time playing.
Only thing I hate is when people try to force their way of playing a game onto others. I don't hate people who play the market all day, people who place space barbie all day, people who do ground all day, or people that PVP all day, ect. Despite getting hate from specific individual users which are known for being extremely toxic to begin with
I hate the dps obsession - but thats not the exact truth, its more the fact I hate the epeen waving and general 'get 2 mi lvl scrub' and 'wtf, this will ruin my parse, so -ragequits-' mentality it generates and the way it fuels in kind the power creep that I hoped would by stymied with the death of PVP
Don't get me wrong however - I do see the other side where one wants to push their ships to extremes - I'm as bad in some respects, my quest to go as fast as STO allows in sector space is like the search for dps - I can see why its fun for some and the in game lure of being the invincible angel of death (in rpgs I hit level cap asap then smack everything in the game with impunity) - the problem is however to me is that the dps crowd don't understand some people don't want to push as far as they do, for example (amalgated from several conversations recently):
Me: Nice...my turretboat is up to xxk with the changes I put in (dps ommited so as to prevent epeen waving on my part )
Anon: So what? my scimtar does 90k
Me: Well, the turretboat is a pet project to see if I can make the weakest weapon in sto into an ISA weight pulling build at least
Anon: I hope I'm never stuck in a match with that failbuild (private note: the turretboat build was over the minimum dps expected for ISA by a fair margin)
Me: Well its built for CC and supporting the big hitters while doing my share
Anon: If its not faw and kemo, its a failbuild
Me: Its for fun, it does its job
Anon: Fun is for single player, not stfs
Anon: If you add -insert line of ludicrously expensive character bound items- you can get more dps..
Me: Well its a cheap fun build, I want to see what it can do with cheap, widely available parts
Me: Its a turretboat Samsar
Anon: Turretboat? thats a waste of a Samsar
I think those five conversations say a lot for the dps mentality and non dps mentality
As others have mentioned, between "design philosophy" and "lack of other measurable", the reason behind the "DPS Obsession" is that it's about the only thing measurable and "considered useful"...
Consider:
I play a Sci usually in the Pathfinder or Vesta. Making sure to run Science officers in a universal LtCmdr seat, if a LtCmdr sci is not provided.
I have put "passable" levels of skill points into all science skills. aka 6s across the board. Because of the exotic DPS stuffs (it's what's measured, trait, etc.), I'm a bit more focused on PartGens instead of Flow Caps on my consoles, but I've made decisions that may cost me a touch of PGs for a few extra flow caps. GW III, Energy Syphon II, TSS III occupy those "top-end" Sci slots (balance build, not "offensive machine".
Now, you want to know some "factors" that determine if I place 6k or 9-10k on an ISA run?
Do I need to divert from Grav Welling the nanite train, or can I stay on the train as the squad evaporates the transformer before I would get there?
Does anyone on said team pack enough "tankiness" to draw aggro from me before my TSS / Sci team / EPtS / HE / Engie Team "run out" and cause me to pop under the full fury of said train?
Did I even need to divert, or could I hover on the train side of things, blast transformer, and GW the train just before they kick in their EPtEs and scatter, especially since many time I do this they're "just getting into range" as said transformer goes "pop".
Is the team "quick enough" to realize that they don't have to fly to "sweet spot X" and BFaW said far corners of the map, or did they see the GW, rush to optimal range, and engage the big pile I left them.
And here's a few other observations, to help "reinforce" the obsession, as it were:
I don't "need" to bring GW III. GW I from Nandis/Tac mode DSDs/etc. do the CC job "equally effective" as my GW III. And, for the longest time, Tacs with APA/FoMM did greater damage with a GW I than my GW III did.
The maybe 30 seconds I "saved" with my CC is "lost" within 50% of the gateway fight, and I actually drag the team down from that point on because my Exotic damage does not make up for the missing weapon(s), and the "draining splash" I took for these very encounters makes no significant change(s) to the final totals - shields aren't noticeably going down faster, beams from the enemies aren't significantly weaker, even though I'm draining 25-100 power from the target (leech from 4 weapons = ~25, syphon = ~25, string of polaron procs = ~25-75)...
Slotting stuffs like Tachyon Beam, CPB, PSW (balanced against small PvP numbers) against the ginormous NPC numbers is a waste - the effects are essentially unnoticeable (only time I ever carry tachy beam is against the Crystalline entity).
Running those PBAoEs (CPB, PSW, TBR in "attract" mode) in a world where aggro is 95% determined by proximity is potentially fatal / requires a lot more healing than I tend to pack. And TBR is "most effective" with either massive amounts of skill or the "attraction, not repulsion" DOff. Unless you're used to "shoot and scoot" tactics - which is not how I envision your "average" space mage (or any mage for that matter, most mages are stand off in the rear, do their thing, pray that the team keeps the mobs off your back or you're dead)
I could go on and on. I could propose many things that would "make the trinity useful but not mandatory". And not all of them revolve around DPS, but of course anything in the game could affect DPS in one way or another... Such as:
How about making NPCs "less reliant" on massive shields / HP totals, and giving them "much closer to player numbers" and making them "more reliant" on spammed buffs / heals that can be subnuked / drained / postponed / stripped? (ie, after all the full strength heals go off, an escort needs to spam 1 million damage like they do today, but a well built sci could reduce it to 750k or even 500k damage necessary through the fact that the target did not heal-replenish to 1 million)
How about making engie powers (more than just their cruiser auras) that would ensure that their cruiser at 10k is the target of hostile fire for 90% of the engagement, even with an escort blasting away at 2k?
How about making it to where Tac powers don't buff exotic damage anymore, (no more Promethius GW I out-DPSing a non-tac's GW III) but a sci captain's traits (and only a science captain's) can reactivate the interactions so that their exotic damage dumped on a FoMM'ed or APAed target does get the massive damage numbers. And engies get massively more effective heals to go with their tanking role?
Reinstituting "glass cannon" status on escort class ships.
Buffing Science ships / powers if they're supposed to be doing the "dart in, PBAoE, dart out". We're frequently more "glass cannon" than the Escorts are...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
See I have a problem with your use of the phrase "the right thing" there.
Why? In any issue, there is a right and a wrong. Maybe we don't know what it is yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, and the process of challenging and defending positions is how you come to find what is right and what is wrong. And everyone wants to to be right. It's human nature, and it's only logical. Why would anyone want to be wrong? The catch is, some people are irrationally attached to certain positions, rather than the position of being RIGHT. The problem is, nobody could possibly always start with the right position. The solution is obvious: Rather than dying on that hill, just change your position so that it is the right one. It is the only logical move.
if a person does not wish to be bothered by all the minutia of min/max and dps they should not be attacked for it.
Well, here's something I've noticed a lot: When someone does the wrong thing because "they like ice cream", when told that this is the wrong thing, they inevitably react to this as a personal attack, because THEIR position MUST be the right one. Rather than simply acknowledging that the correct, mathematically proven position is the correct position, but one they simply can't afford, so what should they do instead, they kick, scream, and cry, because dammit, THEY LIKE ICE CREAM. This is never constructive and results in one player who is adamantly determined to be a scrub, ignoring all the correct advice, and people who actually are doing the right thing there just annoyed and feeling less helpful. While some DPS people simply want to wave their e-Peens, not everyone is like that: Many just want people to stop being incompetent. The result is the rift we see today: the Anti-DPSers evolving into The Scrub, determined at all cost to simply do the wrong thing, and DPSers evolving into an exclusionary "Elite", who hate you all. No one benefits from this and everyone just ends up annoyed and angry, but the way I see it, if I'm going to be annoyed and angry about something, I'm going to be so on the right side.
That player who must not be named is the one who does not understand probabilities, you know who I mean, we were all ragging on him the other day. He is the only person I have been remotely hostile towards, others who have asked for advice about various things like desirable mods, have gotten much the same info from me as from you, such as good = Crtd, Dmg (since the buff), and Pen, etc. If someone asks for advice on maxing their dps I refrain from comment except to possibly say "I'm not a dpser so I can't really help", now on the other hand in many chat channels (not NoPPS) if someone talks about a particular piece of gear or a ship such as a Galaxy class which is seen as "subpar" or "non-optimal" by the dps crowd they will get spammed with insulting comments. Can similar things happen with the non-dps people, yes of course, people are people and all of us can be a Richard Cranium when we so choose. But is either position "right" or the only way to go, not in my opinion, I feel one can safely and effectively straddle the line between DPS and BFF (Build for fun).
I especially like that last sentence you typed up there, as I certainly like to build my ship for fun, as well as for affordability.
See I have a problem with your use of the phrase "the right thing" there.
Why? In any issue, there is a right and a wrong. Maybe we don't know what it is yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, and the process of challenging and defending positions is how you come to find what is right and what is wrong. And everyone wants to to be right. It's human nature, and it's only logical. Why would anyone want to be wrong? The catch is, some people are irrationally attached to certain positions, rather than the position of being RIGHT. The problem is, nobody could possibly always start with the right position. The solution is obvious: Rather than dying on that hill, just change your position so that it is the right one. It is the only logical move.
if a person does not wish to be bothered by all the minutia of min/max and dps they should not be attacked for it.
Well, here's something I've noticed a lot: When someone does the wrong thing because "they like ice cream", when told that this is the wrong thing, they inevitably react to this as a personal attack, because THEIR position MUST be the right one. Rather than simply acknowledging that the correct, mathematically proven position is the correct position, but one they simply can't afford, so what should they do instead, they kick, scream, and cry, because dammit, THEY LIKE ICE CREAM. This is never constructive and results in one player who is adamantly determined to be a scrub, ignoring all the correct advice, and people who actually are doing the right thing there just annoyed and feeling less helpful. While some DPS people simply want to wave their e-Peens, not everyone is like that: Many just want people to stop being incompetent. The result is the rift we see today: the Anti-DPSers evolving into The Scrub, determined at all cost to simply do the wrong thing, and DPSers evolving into an exclusionary "Elite", who hate you all. No one benefits from this and everyone just ends up annoyed and angry, but the way I see it, if I'm going to be annoyed and angry about something, I'm going to be so on the right side.
That player who must not be named is the one who does not understand probabilities, you know who I mean, we were all ragging on him the other day. He is the only person I have been remotely hostile towards, others who have asked for advice about various things like desirable mods, have gotten much the same info from me as from you, such as good = Crtd, Dmg (since the buff), and Pen, etc. If someone asks for advice on maxing their dps I refrain from comment except to possibly say "I'm not a dpser so I can't really help", now on the other hand in many chat channels (not NoPPS) if someone talks about a particular piece of gear or a ship such as a Galaxy class which is seen as "subpar" or "non-optimal" by the dps crowd they will get spammed with insulting comments. Can similar things happen with the non-dps people, yes of course, people are people and all of us can be a Richard Cranium when we so choose. But is either position "right" or the only way to go, not in my opinion, I feel one can safely and effectively straddle the line between DPS and BFF (Build for fun).
Take a seat Mr. azrael605, I would like to know why you dislike me so and why you continue to hold some grudge that I am unaware of. I am not one of these DPS people, nor do I really care to be. I just play the game however I feel like I should (e.g. sometimes I try to chase my own personal DPS records). It's all about having fun, right?
In the past I was a very mean spirited person, but I've come to learn to not blame the victim and listen to people who I trust.
I hate the dps obsession - but thats not the exact truth, its more the fact I hate the epeen waving and general 'get 2 mi lvl scrub' and 'wtf, this will ruin my parse, so -ragequits-' mentality it generates and the way it fuels in kind the power creep that I hoped would by stymied with the death of PVP
If that is a PUG, they are pretty much idiots for expecting to get a good parse out of it. Don't get me wrong, you could very well roll a good PUG, but the uncertainty in team quality shouldn't bring expectations so high to the point that they will rage-quit (incurring a 1-hour penalty) because they won't parse high. Or maybe they are just trolling? XD
Don't get me wrong however - I do see the other side where one wants to push their ships to extremes - I'm as bad in some respects, my quest to go as fast as STO allows in sector space is like the search for dps - I can see why its fun for some and the in game lure of being the invincible angel of death (in rpgs I hit level cap asap then smack everything in the game with impunity)
Funny you mentioned that... I have a fleet mate who is obsessed with getting max combat speed for his ship. It's so zippy I don't even know how he can fly that thing in combat without getting motion sickness. That guy has a pretty strong stomach.
the problem is however to me is that the dps crowd don't understand some people don't want to push as far as they do, for example (amalgated from several conversations recently):
Me: Nice...my turretboat is up to xxk with the changes I put in (dps ommited so as to prevent epeen waving on my part )
Anon: So what? my scimtar does 90k
Me: Well, the turretboat is a pet project to see if I can make the weakest weapon in sto into an ISA weight pulling build at least
Anon: I hope I'm never stuck in a match with that failbuild (private note: the turretboat build was over the minimum dps expected for ISA by a fair margin)
Me: Well its built for CC and supporting the big hitters while doing my share
Anon: If its not faw and kemo, its a failbuild
Me: Its for fun, it does its job
Anon: Fun is for single player, not stfs
Anon: If you add -insert line of ludicrously expensive character bound items- you can get more dps..
Me: Well its a cheap fun build, I want to see what it can do with cheap, widely available parts
Me: Its a turretboat Samsar
Anon: Turretboat? thats a waste of a Samsar
I think those five conversations say a lot for the dps mentality and non dps mentality
I ran into one person (who I will not name) who is exactly like that. When he found out I was using torps, he gave that exact argument above. Didn't bother me though, since it was one person out of the thousands in the channels, and he is no longer part of the DPS-League.
The thing is, don't judge an entire community for the actions of a few people. I (and I am sure a lot of other DPS channel members) would love to fly with a turret boat like yours. It'll be fun.
See I have a problem with your use of the phrase "the right thing" there.
Why? In any issue, there is a right and a wrong. Maybe we don't know what it is yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, and the process of challenging and defending positions is how you come to find what is right and what is wrong. And everyone wants to to be right. It's human nature, and it's only logical. Why would anyone want to be wrong? The catch is, some people are irrationally attached to certain positions, rather than the position of being RIGHT. The problem is, nobody could possibly always start with the right position. The solution is obvious: Rather than dying on that hill, just change your position so that it is the right one. It is the only logical move.
if a person does not wish to be bothered by all the minutia of min/max and dps they should not be attacked for it.
Well, here's something I've noticed a lot: When someone does the wrong thing because "they like ice cream", when told that this is the wrong thing, they inevitably react to this as a personal attack, because THEIR position MUST be the right one. Rather than simply acknowledging that the correct, mathematically proven position is the correct position, but one they simply can't afford, so what should they do instead, they kick, scream, and cry, because dammit, THEY LIKE ICE CREAM. This is never constructive and results in one player who is adamantly determined to be a scrub, ignoring all the correct advice, and people who actually are doing the right thing there just annoyed and feeling less helpful. While some DPS people simply want to wave their e-Peens, not everyone is like that: Many just want people to stop being incompetent. The result is the rift we see today: the Anti-DPSers evolving into The Scrub, determined at all cost to simply do the wrong thing, and DPSers evolving into an exclusionary "Elite", who hate you all. No one benefits from this and everyone just ends up annoyed and angry, but the way I see it, if I'm going to be annoyed and angry about something, I'm going to be so on the right side.
That player who must not be named is the one who does not understand probabilities, you know who I mean, we were all ragging on him the other day. He is the only person I have been remotely hostile towards, others who have asked for advice about various things like desirable mods, have gotten much the same info from me as from you, such as good = Crtd, Dmg (since the buff), and Pen, etc. If someone asks for advice on maxing their dps I refrain from comment except to possibly say "I'm not a dpser so I can't really help", now on the other hand in many chat channels (not NoPPS) if someone talks about a particular piece of gear or a ship such as a Galaxy class which is seen as "subpar" or "non-optimal" by the dps crowd they will get spammed with insulting comments. Can similar things happen with the non-dps people, yes of course, people are people and all of us can be a Richard Cranium when we so choose. But is either position "right" or the only way to go, not in my opinion, I feel one can safely and effectively straddle the line between DPS and BFF (Build for fun).
Take a seat Mr. azrael605, I would like to know why you dislike me so and why you continue to hold some grudge that I am unaware of. I am not one of these DPS people, nor do I really care to be. I just play the game however I feel like I should (e.g. sometimes I try to chase my own personal DPS records). It's all about having fun, right?
In the past I was a very mean spirited person, but I've come to learn to not blame the victim and listen to people who I trust.
Pretty sure I've explained it about 4 or 5 times now.
Best I've gotten out of you is that you think I complain a lot, which is definitely something I do, and won't change any time soon.
People really need to learn that the people who complain the most are the ones that care the most.
And that spending $300 for LTS creates a huge divide in this community between the high class players that get content handed to them on a silver platter and the plebeian class players such as myself.
See I have a problem with your use of the phrase "the right thing" there.
Why? In any issue, there is a right and a wrong. Maybe we don't know what it is yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, and the process of challenging and defending positions is how you come to find what is right and what is wrong. And everyone wants to to be right. It's human nature, and it's only logical. Why would anyone want to be wrong? The catch is, some people are irrationally attached to certain positions, rather than the position of being RIGHT. The problem is, nobody could possibly always start with the right position. The solution is obvious: Rather than dying on that hill, just change your position so that it is the right one. It is the only logical move.
if a person does not wish to be bothered by all the minutia of min/max and dps they should not be attacked for it.
Well, here's something I've noticed a lot: When someone does the wrong thing because "they like ice cream", when told that this is the wrong thing, they inevitably react to this as a personal attack, because THEIR position MUST be the right one. Rather than simply acknowledging that the correct, mathematically proven position is the correct position, but one they simply can't afford, so what should they do instead, they kick, scream, and cry, because dammit, THEY LIKE ICE CREAM. This is never constructive and results in one player who is adamantly determined to be a scrub, ignoring all the correct advice, and people who actually are doing the right thing there just annoyed and feeling less helpful. While some DPS people simply want to wave their e-Peens, not everyone is like that: Many just want people to stop being incompetent. The result is the rift we see today: the Anti-DPSers evolving into The Scrub, determined at all cost to simply do the wrong thing, and DPSers evolving into an exclusionary "Elite", who hate you all. No one benefits from this and everyone just ends up annoyed and angry, but the way I see it, if I'm going to be annoyed and angry about something, I'm going to be so on the right side.
That player who must not be named is the one who does not understand probabilities, you know who I mean, we were all ragging on him the other day. He is the only person I have been remotely hostile towards, others who have asked for advice about various things like desirable mods, have gotten much the same info from me as from you, such as good = Crtd, Dmg (since the buff), and Pen, etc. If someone asks for advice on maxing their dps I refrain from comment except to possibly say "I'm not a dpser so I can't really help", now on the other hand in many chat channels (not NoPPS) if someone talks about a particular piece of gear or a ship such as a Galaxy class which is seen as "subpar" or "non-optimal" by the dps crowd they will get spammed with insulting comments. Can similar things happen with the non-dps people, yes of course, people are people and all of us can be a Richard Cranium when we so choose. But is either position "right" or the only way to go, not in my opinion, I feel one can safely and effectively straddle the line between DPS and BFF (Build for fun).
Take a seat Mr. azrael605, I would like to know why you dislike me so and why you continue to hold some grudge that I am unaware of. I am not one of these DPS people, nor do I really care to be. I just play the game however I feel like I should (e.g. sometimes I try to chase my own personal DPS records). It's all about having fun, right?
In the past I was a very mean spirited person, but I've come to learn to not blame the victim and listen to people who I trust.
Pretty sure I've explained it about 4 or 5 times now.
Best I've gotten out of you is that you think I complain a lot, which is definitely something I do, and won't change any time soon.
People really need to learn that the people who complain the most are the ones that care the most.
And that spending $300 for LTS creates a huge divide in this community between the high class players that get content handed to them on a silver platter and the plebeian class players such as myself.
I have nothing to learn from you.
That's the issue. You can learn something from everyone, even scum of the earth like myself.
I think those five conversations say a lot for the dps mentality and non dps mentality
Ah, those guys. Those guys aren't real min-maxers. Min-maxers like me, I love those crazy builds. They're just an extra constraint, and maybe another objective, to optimize for.
Now, what I think you need is more colorful turrets. Try to maximize the number of different colors you fire: Make each turret a distinct and different color! Now that we have maximized colorfulness, try and see how many snowflakes you can cheese off with it! TASTE THE RAINBOW!
+1. I've also always wanted to build a Skittles Malon. I just lack the resources atm but it would be interesting how far up that can be pushed.
Oh not this again...my Oddy does around 18,000-25,000 DPS and it gets me through everything.
I'm mainly a healer I have heals coming out my eyes and my resists are nearly 75% when buffed.
Just ignore those DPS guys...send them my way where their 100,000 DPS is now suddenly 25,000 DPS because of a tanking resist build.
So it's all relative. I've PvPed high DPS builds, what you'll find is you can take their damage as a tank/resist/healer while you whittle them down little by little until boom...
Again just enjoy the game and play the game as you wish.
Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
I like the DPS'ers because they're so dedicated. They do all this testing and experimenting and keep track of all the latest changes so I don't have to. Their knowledge of the game and mechanics keeps me informed. Also, I always felt like the ships I liked would be trash in STF's, but if people like STORyan can solo STF's in a tier 1 NX-Class then it tells me that literally any ship can be made to work well, so now I can fly what I want without worrying that I'm TRIBBLE my team just because I only have 3 tac console slots instead of 5.
I like the DPS'ers because they're so dedicated. They do all this testing and experimenting and keep track of all the latest changes so I don't have to. Their knowledge of the game and mechanics keeps me informed. Also, I always felt like the ships I liked would be trash in STF's, but if people like STORyan can solo STF's in a tier 1 NX-Class then it tells me that literally any ship can be made to work well, so now I can fly what I want without worrying that I'm TRIBBLE my team just because I only have 3 tac console slots instead of 5.
My Olaen with only 1 Tac Console slotted can do 30K DPS. I wouldn't worry about Tac Consoles.
I like the DPS'ers because they're so dedicated. They do all this testing and experimenting and keep track of all the latest changes so I don't have to. Their knowledge of the game and mechanics keeps me informed. Also, I always felt like the ships I liked would be trash in STF's, but if people like STORyan can solo STF's in a tier 1 NX-Class then it tells me that literally any ship can be made to work well, so now I can fly what I want without worrying that I'm TRIBBLE my team just because I only have 3 tac console slots instead of 5.
My Olaen with only 1 Tac Console slotted can do 30K DPS. I wouldn't worry about Tac Consoles.
lol as I was saying I don't worry about it anymore and it was the DPS'ers showed me the light.
So you come to the forums and spend the time to make an account and type up a grammatically incorrect post about how much you think OTHER people are obsessed with DPS. Am I the only one who appreciates the irony? You aren't required to participate unless your trying to run Elite STF's in a 5k DPS ship, then you should be redirected to easier missions or in some cases yelled at for doing something you know you can't. If you read zone chat and expect it to be civil your not very bright. If your using DPS channels to run STF's then your a hypocrite. If team members posting parses after a mission annoys you then simply block team/local chat.
If you truly didn't care about DPS then you would simply ignore people who talk about it, but by writing this post you demonstrate that like many other people you aren't performing as well as you want and therefore get angry and jealous at those are better. Common trait amongst humans.
I myself rarely parse greater then a modest 20k or so and I really don't care because I'm content with that, I leave the DPSing and the wasting of hundreds of dollars to other people. If that makes them happy then who am I to argue? It's a free world after all. (Except in China, and the Middle east, and a few other crappy places.)
the only time I had issues were when i first started playing the game and would encounter players throwing out "noob" insults and other nastiness in STF's.
When I eventully joined the DPS channels I found none of this, in fact encountered none of these players in the channels. What I found was people willing to discuss how to improve your build and offer suggestions. no-one I have encountered has ever insistsed I should do anything at all and have actively encoiuraged me to experiment with my builds myself.
I've seen far more negativity in these forums from the anti-dps people than i have ever done in the DPS channels, not that i am active that much there anymore as i'm not pursuing DPS records and have been concentrating on other less optimised builds so that the game doesn't get stale for me.
Addressing the DPS Elitists vs the "Elitists" vs the non-DPS crowd:
The DPS Elitists are the toxic ones. They have no problem in telling you that, "You suck. This is bad. Copy my build and do what I do." if you don't min-max as hardcore as they do. Anything that deviates from their 'magic' is obviously wrong, because they didn't come up with it. A few will even go so far as to take someone's work and claim it as their own. It's max DPS by any means necessary.
The "Elitists" are people who are extremely knowledgeable in at least one area of the game. These people have put in hundreds of hours to investigate the mechanics of the game. Those that I have encountered are more than willing to share their information with people, and are receptive to adding/updating/changing their knowledge based off of new information and evidence.
There are "Jr. Elitists" who have learned much from the "Elitists", and will help others out to ease the burden on the "Elitists". The bottom line is not to chase numbers by any means necessary, but to refine the players' abilities to make the more challenging content accessible, doable, or even easier.
Some non-DPS people got burned by the DPS Elitists, and will lump anyone who does any sort of min-maxing as "Elitist". As the vast majority of players are still learning how to be effective in space and ground combat, one can get lost in trying to figure out everything. I have learned, and continue to learn, from the "Elitists"/"Jr. Elitists" in their respective areas of expertise. The information I learned have helped me turn my fun kinetic build into what you see today.
Speaking of build, I designed my build with an offensive fire support mindset. It's part of the design strategy back then when people were shifting to all-energy loadouts. I can toss a heal or two out there, but my primary job is to nuke the really big target when shields are weak/down, and/or swat the gnats interfering w/ my Cruiser buddies.
You CAN still have fun w/ a build that you like, on a ship that you like; just learn how to build it properly, fly it well, have a reasonable expectation about its performance, and don't be afraid to push the envelope.
If you would have told me 3 months ago that Hive Space Elite could have speed and DPS records set by a team made up of two tanks, one Sci DPS/Healer, one beam array DPS, and one torpedo DPS, I would have said you needed your head examined. Yet, that run was the second smoothest Hive run ever that I have heard of or been involved in.
Team coordination? Go
Team cohesion? Go
Team strategy? Go
On-the-fly tactics? Go
Having fun with what we like to do while facing difficult challenges and defying build conventions? Priceless.
Maybe if people started to work together more, there would be less bickering.
Comments
I'm curious as to what other method exists to see how well one is performing, besides using a parser. When I look at my parses, I'm trying to figure out if using [x] was worth getting rid of [y]. With the ridiculous amount of power creep being sold, it's really not hard to break 10k DPS. Like, not at all.
And, if you don't care about how effective you are, why do you care if people parse? Obviously, one shouldn't be so self absorbed that they both disregard how effective their build is, AND join something with a difficulty level called "Advanced" or "Elite." As far as I know, no one is parsing FEs or Normal queues. That would be complete, unadulterated hypocrisy, at best.
For what it's worth, I play sci captains almost exclusively, and never, not once, has anyone seriously poked fun at my choice of captain, my role on a team, or my intelligence for not choosing "max dps wtf play tac" in any DPS channel. Ever. Well, unless they were just ribbing me in a good natured way. I'm not after 100k DPS, either, and I've never seen anyone who is the same get made fun of for that, either.
This "zomg teh dps community kicked my dog and stole my lunch money" nonsense is old, and, frankly, ridiculous. If you don't like how the Advanced and Elite queues are, probably direct your attention to those that designed them. I would think that should go without saying. Don't blame the people taking time from playing to answer a myriad of questions over and over ad nauseum just to help people (who are asking) be more effective.
the anti-dps community is not bad or good. the fact is that you must share their point of view. when players are bashed because they don't have exactly the same point of view, then something goes wrong.
neutral, nothing more
Even the worst of the DPS community isn't anywhere near as hostile as some of the anti-DPS'ers or anti-PVP'ers here in the forum. And usually, the worst of the DPS community isn't even high up the DPS ladder in the first place. A lot of the people who got themselves up in the top of the DPS charts got there through the help of players before them, and it seems that they are happy to pass the knowledge gained over their time playing.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Don't get me wrong however - I do see the other side where one wants to push their ships to extremes - I'm as bad in some respects, my quest to go as fast as STO allows in sector space is like the search for dps - I can see why its fun for some and the in game lure of being the invincible angel of death (in rpgs I hit level cap asap then smack everything in the game with impunity) - the problem is however to me is that the dps crowd don't understand some people don't want to push as far as they do, for example (amalgated from several conversations recently):
Me: Nice...my turretboat is up to xxk with the changes I put in (dps ommited so as to prevent epeen waving on my part
Anon: So what? my scimtar does 90k
Me: Well, the turretboat is a pet project to see if I can make the weakest weapon in sto into an ISA weight pulling build at least
Anon: I hope I'm never stuck in a match with that failbuild (private note: the turretboat build was over the minimum dps expected for ISA by a fair margin)
Me: Well its built for CC and supporting the big hitters while doing my share
Anon: If its not faw and kemo, its a failbuild
Me: Its for fun, it does its job
Anon: Fun is for single player, not stfs
Anon: If you add -insert line of ludicrously expensive character bound items- you can get more dps..
Me: Well its a cheap fun build, I want to see what it can do with cheap, widely available parts
Me: Its a turretboat Samsar
Anon: Turretboat? thats a waste of a Samsar
I think those five conversations say a lot for the dps mentality and non dps mentality
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This is false. Some strictly fact based issues do have a right and wrong, but subjective opinion based issues do not.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Consider:
I play a Sci usually in the Pathfinder or Vesta. Making sure to run Science officers in a universal LtCmdr seat, if a LtCmdr sci is not provided.
I have put "passable" levels of skill points into all science skills. aka 6s across the board. Because of the exotic DPS stuffs (it's what's measured, trait, etc.), I'm a bit more focused on PartGens instead of Flow Caps on my consoles, but I've made decisions that may cost me a touch of PGs for a few extra flow caps. GW III, Energy Syphon II, TSS III occupy those "top-end" Sci slots (balance build, not "offensive machine".
Now, you want to know some "factors" that determine if I place 6k or 9-10k on an ISA run?
Do I need to divert from Grav Welling the nanite train, or can I stay on the train as the squad evaporates the transformer before I would get there?
Does anyone on said team pack enough "tankiness" to draw aggro from me before my TSS / Sci team / EPtS / HE / Engie Team "run out" and cause me to pop under the full fury of said train?
Did I even need to divert, or could I hover on the train side of things, blast transformer, and GW the train just before they kick in their EPtEs and scatter, especially since many time I do this they're "just getting into range" as said transformer goes "pop".
Is the team "quick enough" to realize that they don't have to fly to "sweet spot X" and BFaW said far corners of the map, or did they see the GW, rush to optimal range, and engage the big pile I left them.
And here's a few other observations, to help "reinforce" the obsession, as it were:
I don't "need" to bring GW III. GW I from Nandis/Tac mode DSDs/etc. do the CC job "equally effective" as my GW III. And, for the longest time, Tacs with APA/FoMM did greater damage with a GW I than my GW III did.
The maybe 30 seconds I "saved" with my CC is "lost" within 50% of the gateway fight, and I actually drag the team down from that point on because my Exotic damage does not make up for the missing weapon(s), and the "draining splash" I took for these very encounters makes no significant change(s) to the final totals - shields aren't noticeably going down faster, beams from the enemies aren't significantly weaker, even though I'm draining 25-100 power from the target (leech from 4 weapons = ~25, syphon = ~25, string of polaron procs = ~25-75)...
Slotting stuffs like Tachyon Beam, CPB, PSW (balanced against small PvP numbers) against the ginormous NPC numbers is a waste - the effects are essentially unnoticeable (only time I ever carry tachy beam is against the Crystalline entity).
Running those PBAoEs (CPB, PSW, TBR in "attract" mode) in a world where aggro is 95% determined by proximity is potentially fatal / requires a lot more healing than I tend to pack. And TBR is "most effective" with either massive amounts of skill or the "attraction, not repulsion" DOff. Unless you're used to "shoot and scoot" tactics - which is not how I envision your "average" space mage (or any mage for that matter, most mages are stand off in the rear, do their thing, pray that the team keeps the mobs off your back or you're dead)
I could go on and on. I could propose many things that would "make the trinity useful but not mandatory". And not all of them revolve around DPS, but of course anything in the game could affect DPS in one way or another... Such as:
How about making NPCs "less reliant" on massive shields / HP totals, and giving them "much closer to player numbers" and making them "more reliant" on spammed buffs / heals that can be subnuked / drained / postponed / stripped? (ie, after all the full strength heals go off, an escort needs to spam 1 million damage like they do today, but a well built sci could reduce it to 750k or even 500k damage necessary through the fact that the target did not heal-replenish to 1 million)
How about making engie powers (more than just their cruiser auras) that would ensure that their cruiser at 10k is the target of hostile fire for 90% of the engagement, even with an escort blasting away at 2k?
How about making it to where Tac powers don't buff exotic damage anymore, (no more Promethius GW I out-DPSing a non-tac's GW III) but a sci captain's traits (and only a science captain's) can reactivate the interactions so that their exotic damage dumped on a FoMM'ed or APAed target does get the massive damage numbers. And engies get massively more effective heals to go with their tanking role?
Reinstituting "glass cannon" status on escort class ships.
Buffing Science ships / powers if they're supposed to be doing the "dart in, PBAoE, dart out". We're frequently more "glass cannon" than the Escorts are...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I especially like that last sentence you typed up there, as I certainly like to build my ship for fun, as well as for affordability.
Take a seat Mr. azrael605, I would like to know why you dislike me so and why you continue to hold some grudge that I am unaware of. I am not one of these DPS people, nor do I really care to be. I just play the game however I feel like I should (e.g. sometimes I try to chase my own personal DPS records). It's all about having fun, right?
In the past I was a very mean spirited person, but I've come to learn to not blame the victim and listen to people who I trust.
If that is a PUG, they are pretty much idiots for expecting to get a good parse out of it. Don't get me wrong, you could very well roll a good PUG, but the uncertainty in team quality shouldn't bring expectations so high to the point that they will rage-quit (incurring a 1-hour penalty) because they won't parse high. Or maybe they are just trolling? XD
Funny you mentioned that... I have a fleet mate who is obsessed with getting max combat speed for his ship. It's so zippy I don't even know how he can fly that thing in combat without getting motion sickness.
I ran into one person (who I will not name) who is exactly like that. When he found out I was using torps, he gave that exact argument above. Didn't bother me though, since it was one person out of the thousands in the channels, and he is no longer part of the DPS-League.
The thing is, don't judge an entire community for the actions of a few people. I (and I am sure a lot of other DPS channel members) would love to fly with a turret boat like yours. It'll be fun.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Best I've gotten out of you is that you think I complain a lot, which is definitely something I do, and won't change any time soon.
People really need to learn that the people who complain the most are the ones that care the most.
And that spending $300 for LTS creates a huge divide in this community between the high class players that get content handed to them on a silver platter and the plebeian class players such as myself.
That's the issue. You can learn something from everyone, even scum of the earth like myself.
+1. I've also always wanted to build a Skittles Malon. I just lack the resources atm but it would be interesting how far up that can be pushed.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
I'm mainly a healer I have heals coming out my eyes and my resists are nearly 75% when buffed.
Just ignore those DPS guys...send them my way where their 100,000 DPS is now suddenly 25,000 DPS because of a tanking resist build.
So it's all relative. I've PvPed high DPS builds, what you'll find is you can take their damage as a tank/resist/healer while you whittle them down little by little until boom...
Again just enjoy the game and play the game as you wish.
Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians
U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
Game Handle: Grayfox@GrayfoxJames
Website: https://www.libertytaskforce.com
Armada (STOFA Member Fleet): https://www.libertytaskforce.com/stofa
Discord: https://discord.gg/bGp9N7z
Twitter: STOFA@LTFGrayfox
Email: CSDynamix@Hotmail.com
lol, no. curiosity is the key. you can learn everything by yourself; if you are enough curious of things. you just need from others, advices.
My Olaen with only 1 Tac Console slotted can do 30K DPS. I wouldn't worry about Tac Consoles.
lol as I was saying I don't worry about it anymore and it was the DPS'ers showed me the light.
If you truly didn't care about DPS then you would simply ignore people who talk about it, but by writing this post you demonstrate that like many other people you aren't performing as well as you want and therefore get angry and jealous at those are better. Common trait amongst humans.
I myself rarely parse greater then a modest 20k or so and I really don't care because I'm content with that, I leave the DPSing and the wasting of hundreds of dollars to other people. If that makes them happy then who am I to argue? It's a free world after all. (Except in China, and the Middle east, and a few other crappy places.)
When I eventully joined the DPS channels I found none of this, in fact encountered none of these players in the channels. What I found was people willing to discuss how to improve your build and offer suggestions. no-one I have encountered has ever insistsed I should do anything at all and have actively encoiuraged me to experiment with my builds myself.
I've seen far more negativity in these forums from the anti-dps people than i have ever done in the DPS channels, not that i am active that much there anymore as i'm not pursuing DPS records and have been concentrating on other less optimised builds so that the game doesn't get stale for me.
The DPS Elitists are the toxic ones. They have no problem in telling you that, "You suck. This is bad. Copy my build and do what I do." if you don't min-max as hardcore as they do. Anything that deviates from their 'magic' is obviously wrong, because they didn't come up with it. A few will even go so far as to take someone's work and claim it as their own. It's max DPS by any means necessary.
The "Elitists" are people who are extremely knowledgeable in at least one area of the game. These people have put in hundreds of hours to investigate the mechanics of the game. Those that I have encountered are more than willing to share their information with people, and are receptive to adding/updating/changing their knowledge based off of new information and evidence.
There are "Jr. Elitists" who have learned much from the "Elitists", and will help others out to ease the burden on the "Elitists". The bottom line is not to chase numbers by any means necessary, but to refine the players' abilities to make the more challenging content accessible, doable, or even easier.
Some non-DPS people got burned by the DPS Elitists, and will lump anyone who does any sort of min-maxing as "Elitist". As the vast majority of players are still learning how to be effective in space and ground combat, one can get lost in trying to figure out everything. I have learned, and continue to learn, from the "Elitists"/"Jr. Elitists" in their respective areas of expertise. The information I learned have helped me turn my fun kinetic build into what you see today.
Speaking of build, I designed my build with an offensive fire support mindset. It's part of the design strategy back then when people were shifting to all-energy loadouts. I can toss a heal or two out there, but my primary job is to nuke the really big target when shields are weak/down, and/or swat the gnats interfering w/ my Cruiser buddies.
You CAN still have fun w/ a build that you like, on a ship that you like; just learn how to build it properly, fly it well, have a reasonable expectation about its performance, and don't be afraid to push the envelope.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
If you would have told me 3 months ago that Hive Space Elite could have speed and DPS records set by a team made up of two tanks, one Sci DPS/Healer, one beam array DPS, and one torpedo DPS, I would have said you needed your head examined. Yet, that run was the second smoothest Hive run ever that I have heard of or been involved in.
Team coordination? Go
Team cohesion? Go
Team strategy? Go
On-the-fly tactics? Go
Having fun with what we like to do while facing difficult challenges and defying build conventions? Priceless.
Maybe if people started to work together more, there would be less bickering.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Oh I didn't notice that you were @Odenknight. Well that makes a lot of sense now.