^ Once again you're forcing your ideology onto others. You can't convince people of what you're trying to say by belittling them, especially on such a insignificant topic like this.
It's downright offensive. It's like you don't comprehend that there is a game outside of min-maxing for HSE.
You continue to totally ignore my point about imbalance in this game. This topic is not about HSE, or whatever haddon you've got for the map with your old boys club.
From what your saying @paxdawn, HSE proves wether or not your ship is built to tackle HSE. The point I we are making is that with a macro and the right mk14 epic gear you can bind everything into 1 key and do anything. Because of the current imbalance. Player skill and build application is no longer the contributing factor to STF completion that it should be. And the top DPSers seem to be fine with that. The whole PvE community seems to be fine with that. That's the problem we're are having. That's the problem the PvP community had and was forced into near oblivion by trying to voice it.
P.S. Love how you didn't disagree with what I said about Corbin. Good to know you agree.
P.P.S. What I was referring to about the Top 5 DPSers vs PvPers was that a while back said DPSers claimed they could take on the best PvPers in a challenge match. Needless it didn't end well for the DPSers.
^ Once again you're forcing your ideology onto others. You can't convince people of what you're trying to say by belittling them, especially on such a insignificant topic like this.
It's downright offensive. It's like you don't comprehend that there is a game outside of min-maxing for HSE.
You continue to totally ignore my point about imbalance in this game. This topic is not about HSE, or whatever haddon you've got for the map with your old boys club.
The whole point is proof. Proof you are better in PvE as so claimed in this thread. How to prove that with air or your words with no way to verify?
This conversation started because certain PvPers claim this and that without proof in this thread. HSE was the end conversation for providing proof as a baseline and compare it with other PvErs. Hard to compare stuff or know how is better if there is no data and no one has a record of it. Hence why HSE parse. I can compare other players parse to your parse. But if you think other STFs are better for parse go ahead make you own community to parse that STF.
If you dont think you can compete with PvErs in their meta, sure no one is going to stop you. Do your own stuff. Not forcing you. But dont brag here that you are better than anyone else or at least support players who brag here in this thread with just air and words without any way to verify what you said. And the only reason that you are good at PvE is false logic of being good at PvP.
Is there a vid of this epic match ? Although the current pvp is not for me, I would love to see this clash of titans encounter :-))
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
From what your saying @paxdawn, HSE proves wether or not your ship is built to tackle HSE. The point I we are making is that with a macro and the right mk14 epic gear you can bind everything into 1 key and do anything. Because of the current imbalance. Player skill and build application is no longer the contributing factor to STF completion that it should be. And the top DPSers seem to be fine with that. The whole PvE community seems to be fine with that. That's the problem we're are having. That's the problem the PvP community had and was forced into near oblivion by trying to voice it.
P.S. Love how you didn't disagree with what I said about Corbin. Good to know you agree.
P.P.S. What I was referring to about the Top 5 DPSers vs PvPers was that a while back said DPSers claimed they could take on the best PvPers in a challenge match. Needless it didn't end well for the DPSers.
You know what though, if the top 5 DPS'er actually cared about PVP, and put forth the same study they do for PVE, they would wreck the best PvP'ers in game.
I'd put money on it.
That's like asking the major league baseball champions to beat the superbowl champions at football.
From what your saying @paxdawn, HSE proves wether or not your ship is built to tackle HSE. The point I we are making is that with a macro and the right mk14 epic gear you can bind everything into 1 key and do anything. Because of the current imbalance. Player skill and build application is no longer the contributing factor to STF completion that it should be. And the top DPSers seem to be fine with that. The whole PvE community seems to be fine with that. That's the problem we're are having. That's the problem the PvP community had and was forced into near oblivion by trying to voice it.
Proof please. here go again with your claims without proof. Prove that Top Pvers dont do what they with skill and build application. Find a new player or noob copy paste 194k DPS build, repeat if you can. IF YOU CAN.
Besides, what you just said means, those who complain cannot adapt. New stuff -> cannot find counter, Players refuse to adapt ->Complain for devs to change. The problem here is the toxic attitude of the PvP community. Look at yourself at mirror and those pvp players who posted in this thread.
P.S. Love how you didn't disagree with what I said about Corbin. Good to know you agree.
Not gonna comment on what PvP community thinks since I dont have the stat of what they think. You on the other hand are good at making stories without basis of proof.
Dont tell me you are going to claim that you are leading the GOP polls over Trump because you said so?
P.P.S. What I was referring to about the Top 5 DPSers vs PvPers was that a while back said DPSers claimed they could take on the best PvPers in a challenge match. Needless it didn't end well for the DPSers.
A Video That doesnt prove anything in PvE.
@risingwolfshadow check the quotes again before you make your next post. Otherwise your lies are going to pile up post after post.
^ Once again you're forcing your ideology onto others. You can't convince people of what you're trying to say by belittling them, especially on such a insignificant topic like this.
It's downright offensive. It's like you don't comprehend that there is a game outside of min-maxing for HSE.
You continue to totally ignore my point about imbalance in this game. This topic is not about HSE, or whatever haddon you've got for the map with your old boys club.
Man dont bother with him. Best course of action is to ignore him since no one understands or even cares of his non-sense ramblings. Of course there is massive imbalance in the game but becouse it suits the DPSers agenda they dont care. All the DPSers talk about proofs yet I still dont see HSE even FINISHED, not even talking about speed-runs, by a team of 5 non-tac and non-rom playes in DHC escorts...
I mean give me one example in this thread where I say I am "top DPS", because I'm not, and never preach to be. I just say that I am a very knowledgeable player that doesn't put the effort in to compete with some Rom Tacs flying Scimitars, and very specific min-maxed builds.
Also I see no PVPers in this thread whining.
(Any PVP whine is legitimate, the cost to make a PVP build is ridiculous)
@paxdawn you can't call me a liar without providing proof yourself.
The point I'm making is how can you say health sponges are difficult to fight when you compare it to fighting an escorts running a speed tanking and resistance build, cruisers with an A2B pressure Dmg tank or a sci ship running a drain and TBR with a little FBP thrown in? Imagine fighting what I just described while they are running their respective buff cycles just as well as you.
You've equally provided no evidence that PvPers are worse at PvE than PvErs.
Not only that, how many PvErs do you know we're doing both PvE and PvP before and after DR? I can guarantee every PvPer does PvE because we need to to get the rep gear.
@taylor1701d don't forget that PvPers have the experience. But with the immunity, Kemo and plasma explosions that's no longer a factor. It's a luck of the draw now. In tier 4 PvP, PvErs wouldn't stand a chance even with equal build's.
All the DPSers talk about proofs yet I still dont see HSE even FINISHED, not even talking about speed-runs, by a team of 5 non-tac and non-rom playes in DHC escorts...
No one accepted your challenge. Besides, you didnt also accept my challenge before you said your challenge, was you actually completing HSE yourself.
Of course if you are knowledgeable about PvE, DHC isnt the cannon you are suppose to use in PvE. But I suppose noobs like you, who pretend to be experts in STO Forums, dont know that.
If you want to see cannon HSE runs, you are welcome to come with us. Just dont be a dead weight for the team.
BTW thanks for dropping by this thread so I can reply to you. You are one of my favorite trolls in the STO forums that keeps me alive and keeps me replying in STO forums.
@paxdawn you can't call me a liar without providing proof yourself.
The point I'm making is how can you say health sponges are difficult to fight when you compare it to fighting an escorts running a speed tanking and resistance build, cruisers with an A2B pressure Dmg tank or a sci ship running a drain and TBR with a little FBP thrown in? Imagine fighting what I just described while they are running their respective buff cycles just as well as you.
You've equally provided no evidence that PvPers are worse at PvE than PvErs.
Not only that, how many PvErs do you know we're doing both PvE and PvP before and after DR? I can guarantee every PvPer does PvE because we need to to get the rep gear.
@taylor1701d don't forget that PvPers have the experience. But with the immunity, Kemo and plasma explosions that's no longer a factor. It's a luck of the draw now. In tier 4 PvP, PvErs wouldn't stand a chance even with equal build's.
Whether your previous point was valid or not, the whole, "prove I'm wrong" excuse means nothing. "I have two tiny unicorns dancing on the belly of a mermaid; prove I'm wrong". Or, "i'm the best PvPer in the game; prove I'm wrong".
See how this works?
As to your 5 non-rom tacs in escorts running HSE, proof is being uploaded now.
You know what though, if the top 5 DPS'er actually cared about PVP, and put forth the same study they do for PVE, they would wreck the best PvP'ers in game.
Didn't they do that? I'm sure back in the day some pre-made team of DPS Scimitars went through a phase of running in PvP queues and winning all the time. I think it was the time where the Scimitar was the undisputed king, and Aux2Batt spamming BFAW was the top build.
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
Take for instance PvPers saying HSE is easy. It's not easy. While a lot of the NPCs are hit sponges there is a lot of them and they can all strip your shields in less than a second. Agro management is a must because pulling everything is crazy bad to do. I would even argue that the average player in the 10k dps channels couldn't even do HSA. It will be a sad day when power creep makes HSE farmable. There's others too like GGE and BDE. Again, not easy. While I agree that most PvE is faceroll there are some missions that offer a true challenge and ignoring that to win a forum argument just makes one look ignorant.
On the flip side there's PvEers saying PvPers don't know the game mechanics. In PvP, one never knows what the next challenge is. Teamwork is a must and piloting and timing are paramount. PvP is also not easy. In order to master PvP one needs to know some really deep game mechanics. Overcapping first came to light from PvPers. I know a lot of PvEers are now just getting into EPS, but I learned about how EPS works on overcapped power (and only overcapped power) well over a year ago in a PvP discussion about a beam boat in OPvP. Unless there's some terribly broken mechanic being exploited or the teams are way off balance in skill level, there's no facerolling in PvP. Ignoring the game knowledge of PvPers to win a forum argument just makes one look ignorant.
What I'm saying is PvE and PvP are two completely different games and require different skill sets so the argument for which player is better is moot. I'm not trying to be a centerest or get everyone to hold hands; I'm just stating how it is.
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
That simply isn't true, at least not where STO is concerned. Speaking of PvP in its previous state, back when it was still alive with a fairly active (though relatively small) community...
You had to PvE to PvP. PvPers required gear from PvE to min/max effectively, and they needed it as fast as possible, because the better gear they had, the more effective they were in PvP, which means they needed to be able to blow through the highest levels of PvE with relative ease--and they did. The PvP community back in the day would faceroll the most difficult PvE content like it was nothing. You couldn't really just coast by in PvP in STO like you could in PvE. You couldn't just take your time, or hope everyone else can carry you, because if you did do that, you'd just get blown up inside of an alpha strike every time you entered a battle. So, PvPers had to be good at PvE in order to succeed in PvP.
So to say that PvPers don't know the challenges of PvE is simply wrong given the fact that they generally were PvEing at the highest level for the sake of being able to PvP at the highest level. The reverse is most likely very true however--PvEers have never had to PvP in order to efficiently and effectively get desired rewards since PvP has never really offered exclusive (or even especially valuable) rewards of any kind. Everything you could get in PvP could be acquired much easier in PvE. So it's likely that the vast majority of PvEers aren't especially familiar with PvP in STO.
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
That simply isn't true, at least not where STO is concerned. Speaking of PvP in its previous state, back when it was still alive with a fairly active (though relatively small) community...
You had to PvE to PvP. PvPers required gear from PvE to min/max effectively, and they needed it as fast as possible, because the better gear they had, the more effective they were in PvP, which means they needed to be able to blow through the highest levels of PvE with relative ease--and they did. The PvP community back in the day would faceroll the most difficult PvE content like it was nothing. You couldn't really just coast by in PvP in STO like you could in PvE. You couldn't just take your time, or hope everyone else can carry you, because if you did do that, you'd just get blown up inside of an alpha strike every time you entered a battle.
So to say that PvPers don't know the challenges of PvE is simply wrong given the fact that they generally were PvEing at the highest level for the sake of being able to PvP at the highest level. The reverse is most likely very true however--PvEers have never had to PvP in order to efficiently and effectively get desired rewards since PvP has never really offered exclusive (or even especially valuable) rewards of any kind. Everything you could get in PvP could be acquired much easier in PvE. So it's likely that the vast majority of PvEers aren't especially familiar with PvP in STO.
Sorry dude but read my whole post... the whole thing and not just the first sentence...
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
That simply isn't true, at least not where STO is concerned. Speaking of PvP in its previous state, back when it was still alive with a fairly active (though relatively small) community...
You had to PvE to PvP. PvPers required gear from PvE to min/max effectively, and they needed it as fast as possible, because the better gear they had, the more effective they were in PvP, which means they needed to be able to blow through the highest levels of PvE with relative ease--and they did. The PvP community back in the day would faceroll the most difficult PvE content like it was nothing. You couldn't really just coast by in PvP in STO like you could in PvE. You couldn't just take your time, or hope everyone else can carry you, because if you did do that, you'd just get blown up inside of an alpha strike every time you entered a battle.
So to say that PvPers don't know the challenges of PvE is simply wrong given the fact that they generally were PvEing at the highest level for the sake of being able to PvP at the highest level. The reverse is most likely very true however--PvEers have never had to PvP in order to efficiently and effectively get desired rewards since PvP has never really offered exclusive (or even especially valuable) rewards of any kind. Everything you could get in PvP could be acquired much easier in PvE. So it's likely that the vast majority of PvEers aren't especially familiar with PvP in STO.
Sorry dude but read my whole post... the whole thing and not just the first sentence...
“Not only that, how many PvErs do you know we're doing both PvE and PvP before and after DR? I can guarantee every PvPer does PvE because we need to to get the rep gear.” .
Some of us have been doing both for years and I don’t see any extra skill required for PvP over PvE. Both require a slightly different skill set but I never found PvP harder. A good setup in PvP isn’t always good for PvE just like a good setup for PvE is not always good for PvP.
Personally I think it’s a lot harder to get in the top end of PvE then PvP. I found completing NWS far harder than any PvP groups I have done. Getting in the top % of PvE speed runs or the top % of DPS runs is harder than PvP match's I do. To get in the top % of PvE groups has taken more precision flying, more timing of skills then what I need to survive at PvP.
One big difference I find between PvP and PvE is PvP builds often focus on single or limited target damage while PvE builds tend to be best doing AoE or muti target damage. Taking those good PvP builds into PvE fails as the PvP build isn't doing enough muti target damage. Just like taking those PvE builds don't do well as PvE as the damage is less focused. Also many of the powers we use in PvP are useless or ineffective at PvE. For example drain builds tend to be a effective in PvP but for the most part ineffective in PvE.
My PvE builds dish out over x10 more damage at PvE then my PvP builds. So I don't see the point in comparing both as you build both for different goals and reasons.
“The point I'm making is how can you say health sponges are difficult to fight when you compare it to fighting an escorts running a speed tanking and resistance build, cruisers with an A2B pressure Dmg tank or a sci ship running a drain and TBR with a little FBP thrown in? Imagine fighting what I just described while they are running their respective buff cycles just as well as you.” .
Personally I never found that a problem as most of the time a single PvP ship doing all that isn’t going to break my tank while in PvE I have to be far more careful. Looking back at over the past week and I died 0 times in all my PvP matches this week but I cannot say the same for PvE.
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
Take for instance PvPers saying HSE is easy. It's not easy. While a lot of the NPCs are hit sponges there is a lot of them and they can all strip your shields in less than a second. Agro management is a must because pulling everything is crazy bad to do. I would even argue that the average player in the 10k dps channels couldn't even do HSA. It will be a sad day when power creep makes HSE farmable. There's others too like GGE and BDE. Again, not easy. While I agree that most PvE is faceroll there are some missions that offer a true challenge and ignoring that to win a forum argument just makes one look ignorant.
On the flip side there's PvEers saying PvPers don't know the game mechanics. In PvP, one never knows what the next challenge is. Teamwork is a must and piloting and timing are paramount. PvP is also not easy. In order to master PvP one needs to know some really deep game mechanics. Overcapping first came to light from PvPers. I know a lot of PvEers are now just getting into EPS, but I learned about how EPS works on overcapped power (and only overcapped power) well over a year ago in a PvP discussion about a beam boat in OPvP. Unless there's some terribly broken mechanic being exploited or the teams are way off balance in skill level, there's no facerolling in PvP. Ignoring the game knowledge of PvPers to win a forum argument just makes one look ignorant.
What I'm saying is PvE and PvP are two completely different games and require different skill sets so the argument for which player is better is moot. I'm not trying to be a centerest or get everyone to hold hands; I'm just stating how it is.
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
That simply isn't true, at least not where STO is concerned. Speaking of PvP in its previous state, back when it was still alive with a fairly active (though relatively small) community...
You had to PvE to PvP. PvPers required gear from PvE to min/max effectively, and they needed it as fast as possible, because the better gear they had, the more effective they were in PvP, which means they needed to be able to blow through the highest levels of PvE with relative ease--and they did. The PvP community back in the day would faceroll the most difficult PvE content like it was nothing. You couldn't really just coast by in PvP in STO like you could in PvE. You couldn't just take your time, or hope everyone else can carry you, because if you did do that, you'd just get blown up inside of an alpha strike every time you entered a battle.
So to say that PvPers don't know the challenges of PvE is simply wrong given the fact that they generally were PvEing at the highest level for the sake of being able to PvP at the highest level. The reverse is most likely very true however--PvEers have never had to PvP in order to efficiently and effectively get desired rewards since PvP has never really offered exclusive (or even especially valuable) rewards of any kind. Everything you could get in PvP could be acquired much easier in PvE. So it's likely that the vast majority of PvEers aren't especially familiar with PvP in STO.
Sorry dude but read my whole post... the whole thing and not just the first sentence...
I did.
Really? I couldn't tell because you're talking about things that happened so long ago they have nothing to do with the game right now. All that old content was and still is faceroll easy for most everyone but the newer content like HSE (post DR), GGE, ect. (not Korfez, that's stupid easy) does have a lot of challenge. Not PvP challenge but a different set of challenges like agro management, positioning, etc. Ignoring that does make one look ignorant. This is all coming from a PvPer. I've been PvPing (and still do) since I discovered Ker'rat in January after the game went F2P.
You know what though, if the top 5 DPS'er actually cared about PVP, and put forth the same study they do for PVE, they would wreck the best PvP'ers in game.
Didn't they do that? I'm sure back in the day some pre-made team of DPS Scimitars went through a phase of running in PvP queues and winning all the time. I think it was the time where the Scimitar was the undisputed king, and Aux2Batt spamming BFAW was the top build.
There was a guy in the DPS channels mouthing off one day (about 2-3 weeks ago) about how we're all idiots in the DPS channel's. And that our chasing DPS was a waste of time.
He then offered a PvP to anyone in the channel, I accepted with my FBP build (figured he would be another Bfaw Kemo player).
But low and behold, this guy was using the cheesiest of PVP setups; Res Beam/SIC, and neutronic torp spread with tractor beam repulsor. All shield bypassing cheese. Dealing PHYS/Kinetic damage.
He flew a scryer as well, so even worse with Override system safties.
I was like "are you serious... you're going to talk all kinds of TRIBBLE in the DPS channel, and offer pvp, and then you have the nerve to run the cheesiest of the cheese exploits to prove your point."
What was this guy trying to do ? Pat himself on the back because he copy/pasted the latest broken game mechanics ?
Its like the Disable/Ionic/neut dorks that were everywhere after DR was released.
Just a plain and simple, follower sheep using the latest exploit build.
Anyway I wanted a rematch, to switch up what I was using to counter his kin/phys shield bypassing cheese, but he suddenly had no time for a rematch, once I knew his game.
Funny how that happened.
I was going to ask what he was using before the match, but wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, that someone talking this much trash wouldn't dare be using the shield bypass TRIBBLE.
But I guess that was giving to much credit where it wasn't due.
“Not only that, how many PvErs do you know we're doing both PvE and PvP before and after DR? I can guarantee every PvPer does PvE because we need to to get the rep gear.” .
Some of us have been doing both for years and I don’t see any extra skill required for PvP over PvE. Both require a slightly different skill set but I never found PvP harder. A good setup in PvP isn’t always good for PvE just like a good setup for PvE is not always good for PvP.
Personally I think it’s a lot harder to get in the top end of PvE then PvP. I found completing NWS far harder than any PvP groups I have done. Getting in the top % of PvE speed runs or the top % of DPS runs is harder than PvP match's I do. To get in the top % of PvE groups has taken more precision flying, more timing of skills then what I need to survive at PvP.
One big difference I find between PvP and PvE is PvP builds often focus on single or limited target damage while PvE builds tend to be best doing AoE or muti target damage. Taking those good PvP builds into PvE fails as the PvP build isn't doing enough muti target damage. Just like taking those PvE builds don't do well as PvE as the damage is less focused. Also many of the powers we use in PvP are useless or ineffective at PvE. For example drain builds tend to be a effective in PvP but for the most part ineffective in PvE.
My PvE builds dish out over x10 more damage at PvE then my PvP builds. So I don't see the point in comparing both as you build both for different goals and reasons.
“The point I'm making is how can you say health sponges are difficult to fight when you compare it to fighting an escorts running a speed tanking and resistance build, cruisers with an A2B pressure Dmg tank or a sci ship running a drain and TBR with a little FBP thrown in? Imagine fighting what I just described while they are running their respective buff cycles just as well as you.” .
Personally I never found that a problem as most of the time a single PvP ship doing all that isn’t going to break my tank while in PvE I have to be far more careful. Looking back at over the past week and I died 0 times in all my PvP matches this week but I cannot say the same for PvE.
You didn't die in pvp ...but you die in PvE ?? What in God's name are you doing ?
That seems back words to me.
What happens to your Resistances when you go into pve ?
If you can survive sustained player attacks, you should be more then durable enough not to die in PvE.
Strange...
EDit: I mean, I know the builds change going from PvE to PvP, but wow, that's strange coming from someone who knows how to tank in PvP.
Not trying to be rude...
I'm just curious, do you change your build drastically or something ?
I always found surviving in PvE really easy even with bare minimum resistances.
The problem being complained about right now is not DPS. it's people who are JERKS about the SUBJECT of DPS.
How do you force dps onto people? by using debuffs on enemy ships?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
“What happens to your Resistances when you go into pve ?
If you can survive sustained player attacks, you should be more then durable enough not to die in PvE.
Strange...”
I always found it far easier to tank 1 or 2 players then tanking a group of NPC on Elite or advanced. Last night 2 of us hold a single capture point without any problem. We sat semi static capturing points using group heals like Rally Point Marker and defense platforms followed by Subspace Interception when ever anyone fall below 50% hall. In PvE everyone tends to move about far to much for stuff like that to be useful. But when you can remain static those are some nice skill combos.
“What happens to your Resistances when you go into pve ?
If you can survive sustained player attacks, you should be more then durable enough not to die in PvE.
Strange...”
I always found it far easier to tank 1 or 2 players then tanking a group of NPC on Elite or advanced. Last night 2 of us hold a single capture point without any problem. We sat semi static capturing points using group heals like Rally Point Marker and defense platforms followed by Subspace Interception when ever anyone fall below 50% hall. In PvE everyone tends to move about far to much for stuff like that to be useful. But when you can remain static those are some nice skill combos.
Interesting..
I find I need like 55-65% resistances with Res buffs like Polarize hull and Aux2 ID while doing PvP, but like 5-20% in PvE is usually okay for me with Polarize and Aux2ID.
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
That simply isn't true, at least not where STO is concerned. Speaking of PvP in its previous state, back when it was still alive with a fairly active (though relatively small) community...
You had to PvE to PvP. PvPers required gear from PvE to min/max effectively, and they needed it as fast as possible, because the better gear they had, the more effective they were in PvP, which means they needed to be able to blow through the highest levels of PvE with relative ease--and they did. The PvP community back in the day would faceroll the most difficult PvE content like it was nothing. You couldn't really just coast by in PvP in STO like you could in PvE. You couldn't just take your time, or hope everyone else can carry you, because if you did do that, you'd just get blown up inside of an alpha strike every time you entered a battle.
So to say that PvPers don't know the challenges of PvE is simply wrong given the fact that they generally were PvEing at the highest level for the sake of being able to PvP at the highest level. The reverse is most likely very true however--PvEers have never had to PvP in order to efficiently and effectively get desired rewards since PvP has never really offered exclusive (or even especially valuable) rewards of any kind. Everything you could get in PvP could be acquired much easier in PvE. So it's likely that the vast majority of PvEers aren't especially familiar with PvP in STO.
Sorry dude but read my whole post... the whole thing and not just the first sentence...
I did.
Really? I couldn't tell because you're talking about things that happened so long ago they have nothing to do with the game right now.
And all of it still applies, regardless. The relationship between PvE and PvP hasn't really changed. PvPers still have to PvE to succeed at PvP, and PvEers still have no need to PvP to succeed at PvE. Ergo, the assertion that PvPers don't understand the challenges of PvE is, yet again, entirely baseless and in disregard of how the game has functioned in the past, and continues to function in the present.
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
That simply isn't true, at least not where STO is concerned. Speaking of PvP in its previous state, back when it was still alive with a fairly active (though relatively small) community...
You had to PvE to PvP. PvPers required gear from PvE to min/max effectively, and they needed it as fast as possible, because the better gear they had, the more effective they were in PvP, which means they needed to be able to blow through the highest levels of PvE with relative ease--and they did. The PvP community back in the day would faceroll the most difficult PvE content like it was nothing. You couldn't really just coast by in PvP in STO like you could in PvE. You couldn't just take your time, or hope everyone else can carry you, because if you did do that, you'd just get blown up inside of an alpha strike every time you entered a battle.
So to say that PvPers don't know the challenges of PvE is simply wrong given the fact that they generally were PvEing at the highest level for the sake of being able to PvP at the highest level. The reverse is most likely very true however--PvEers have never had to PvP in order to efficiently and effectively get desired rewards since PvP has never really offered exclusive (or even especially valuable) rewards of any kind. Everything you could get in PvP could be acquired much easier in PvE. So it's likely that the vast majority of PvEers aren't especially familiar with PvP in STO.
Sorry dude but read my whole post... the whole thing and not just the first sentence...
I did.
Really? I couldn't tell because you're talking about things that happened so long ago they have nothing to do with the game right now.
And all of it still applies, regardless. The relationship between PvE and PvP hasn't really changed. PvPers still have to PvE to succeed at PvP, and PvEers still have no need to PvP to succeed at PvE. Ergo, the assertion that PvPers don't understand the challenges of PvE is, yet again, entirely baseless and in disregard of how the game has functioned in the past, and continues to function in the present.
Shouldn't be too difficult to follow.
I don’t agree with that as PvPers don’t need to do high end PvE runs to succeed at PvP. For years I did PvP without doing any high end PvE. PvP players only have to do the most basic of PvE to unlock gear. They don’t have to master PvE to be good or do PvP.
My biggest gripe with the PvE vs PvP argument is the most adamant people on both sides don't really know the challenges on the other side.
That simply isn't true, at least not where STO is concerned. Speaking of PvP in its previous state, back when it was still alive with a fairly active (though relatively small) community...
You had to PvE to PvP. PvPers required gear from PvE to min/max effectively, and they needed it as fast as possible, because the better gear they had, the more effective they were in PvP, which means they needed to be able to blow through the highest levels of PvE with relative ease--and they did. The PvP community back in the day would faceroll the most difficult PvE content like it was nothing. You couldn't really just coast by in PvP in STO like you could in PvE. You couldn't just take your time, or hope everyone else can carry you, because if you did do that, you'd just get blown up inside of an alpha strike every time you entered a battle.
So to say that PvPers don't know the challenges of PvE is simply wrong given the fact that they generally were PvEing at the highest level for the sake of being able to PvP at the highest level. The reverse is most likely very true however--PvEers have never had to PvP in order to efficiently and effectively get desired rewards since PvP has never really offered exclusive (or even especially valuable) rewards of any kind. Everything you could get in PvP could be acquired much easier in PvE. So it's likely that the vast majority of PvEers aren't especially familiar with PvP in STO.
Sorry dude but read my whole post... the whole thing and not just the first sentence...
I did.
Really? I couldn't tell because you're talking about things that happened so long ago they have nothing to do with the game right now.
And all of it still applies, regardless. The relationship between PvE and PvP hasn't really changed. PvPers still have to PvE to succeed at PvP, and PvEers still have no need to PvP to succeed at PvE. Ergo, the assertion that PvPers don't understand the challenges of PvE is, yet again, entirely baseless and in disregard of how the game has functioned in the past, and continues to function in the present.
Shouldn't be too difficult to follow.
I don’t agree with that as PvPers don’t need to do high end PvE runs to succeed at PvP. For years I did PvP without doing any high end PvE. PvP players only have to do the most basic of PvE to unlock gear. They don’t have to master PvE to be good or do PvP.
yeah that's pretty much it. If this was before DR I would have agreed with @deleroux but things have changed a lot.
Comments
It's downright offensive. It's like you don't comprehend that there is a game outside of min-maxing for HSE.
You continue to totally ignore my point about imbalance in this game. This topic is not about HSE, or whatever haddon you've got for the map with your old boys club.
P.S. Love how you didn't disagree with what I said about Corbin. Good to know you agree.
P.P.S. What I was referring to about the Top 5 DPSers vs PvPers was that a while back said DPSers claimed they could take on the best PvPers in a challenge match. Needless it didn't end well for the DPSers.
The whole point is proof. Proof you are better in PvE as so claimed in this thread. How to prove that with air or your words with no way to verify?
This conversation started because certain PvPers claim this and that without proof in this thread. HSE was the end conversation for providing proof as a baseline and compare it with other PvErs. Hard to compare stuff or know how is better if there is no data and no one has a record of it. Hence why HSE parse. I can compare other players parse to your parse. But if you think other STFs are better for parse go ahead make you own community to parse that STF.
If you dont think you can compete with PvErs in their meta, sure no one is going to stop you. Do your own stuff. Not forcing you. But dont brag here that you are better than anyone else or at least support players who brag here in this thread with just air and words without any way to verify what you said. And the only reason that you are good at PvE is false logic of being good at PvP.
You know what though, if the top 5 DPS'er actually cared about PVP, and put forth the same study they do for PVE, they would wreck the best PvP'ers in game.
I'd put money on it.
That's like asking the major league baseball champions to beat the superbowl champions at football.
Proof please. here go again with your claims without proof. Prove that Top Pvers dont do what they with skill and build application. Find a new player or noob copy paste 194k DPS build, repeat if you can. IF YOU CAN.
Besides, what you just said means, those who complain cannot adapt. New stuff -> cannot find counter, Players refuse to adapt ->Complain for devs to change. The problem here is the toxic attitude of the PvP community. Look at yourself at mirror and those pvp players who posted in this thread.
Not gonna comment on what PvP community thinks since I dont have the stat of what they think. You on the other hand are good at making stories without basis of proof.
Dont tell me you are going to claim that you are leading the GOP polls over Trump because you said so?
A Video That doesnt prove anything in PvE.
@risingwolfshadow check the quotes again before you make your next post. Otherwise your lies are going to pile up post after post.
Man dont bother with him. Best course of action is to ignore him since no one understands or even cares of his non-sense ramblings. Of course there is massive imbalance in the game but becouse it suits the DPSers agenda they dont care. All the DPSers talk about proofs yet I still dont see HSE even FINISHED, not even talking about speed-runs, by a team of 5 non-tac and non-rom playes in DHC escorts...
I mean give me one example in this thread where I say I am "top DPS", because I'm not, and never preach to be. I just say that I am a very knowledgeable player that doesn't put the effort in to compete with some Rom Tacs flying Scimitars, and very specific min-maxed builds.
Also I see no PVPers in this thread whining.
(Any PVP whine is legitimate, the cost to make a PVP build is ridiculous)
The point I'm making is how can you say health sponges are difficult to fight when you compare it to fighting an escorts running a speed tanking and resistance build, cruisers with an A2B pressure Dmg tank or a sci ship running a drain and TBR with a little FBP thrown in? Imagine fighting what I just described while they are running their respective buff cycles just as well as you.
You've equally provided no evidence that PvPers are worse at PvE than PvErs.
Not only that, how many PvErs do you know we're doing both PvE and PvP before and after DR? I can guarantee every PvPer does PvE because we need to to get the rep gear.
@taylor1701d don't forget that PvPers have the experience. But with the immunity, Kemo and plasma explosions that's no longer a factor. It's a luck of the draw now. In tier 4 PvP, PvErs wouldn't stand a chance even with equal build's.
No one accepted your challenge. Besides, you didnt also accept my challenge before you said your challenge, was you actually completing HSE yourself.
Of course if you are knowledgeable about PvE, DHC isnt the cannon you are suppose to use in PvE. But I suppose noobs like you, who pretend to be experts in STO Forums, dont know that.
If you want to see cannon HSE runs, you are welcome to come with us. Just dont be a dead weight for the team.
BTW thanks for dropping by this thread so I can reply to you. You are one of my favorite trolls in the STO forums that keeps me alive and keeps me replying in STO forums.
@risingwolfshadow,
The only reasonable response to you is below:
Whether your previous point was valid or not, the whole, "prove I'm wrong" excuse means nothing. "I have two tiny unicorns dancing on the belly of a mermaid; prove I'm wrong". Or, "i'm the best PvPer in the game; prove I'm wrong".
See how this works?
As to your 5 non-rom tacs in escorts running HSE, proof is being uploaded now.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Didn't they do that? I'm sure back in the day some pre-made team of DPS Scimitars went through a phase of running in PvP queues and winning all the time. I think it was the time where the Scimitar was the undisputed king, and Aux2Batt spamming BFAW was the top build.
@darkknightucf what?? 5 non rom tacs?
Take for instance PvPers saying HSE is easy. It's not easy. While a lot of the NPCs are hit sponges there is a lot of them and they can all strip your shields in less than a second. Agro management is a must because pulling everything is crazy bad to do. I would even argue that the average player in the 10k dps channels couldn't even do HSA. It will be a sad day when power creep makes HSE farmable. There's others too like GGE and BDE. Again, not easy. While I agree that most PvE is faceroll there are some missions that offer a true challenge and ignoring that to win a forum argument just makes one look ignorant.
On the flip side there's PvEers saying PvPers don't know the game mechanics. In PvP, one never knows what the next challenge is. Teamwork is a must and piloting and timing are paramount. PvP is also not easy. In order to master PvP one needs to know some really deep game mechanics. Overcapping first came to light from PvPers. I know a lot of PvEers are now just getting into EPS, but I learned about how EPS works on overcapped power (and only overcapped power) well over a year ago in a PvP discussion about a beam boat in OPvP. Unless there's some terribly broken mechanic being exploited or the teams are way off balance in skill level, there's no facerolling in PvP. Ignoring the game knowledge of PvPers to win a forum argument just makes one look ignorant.
What I'm saying is PvE and PvP are two completely different games and require different skill sets so the argument for which player is better is moot. I'm not trying to be a centerest or get everyone to hold hands; I'm just stating how it is.
That simply isn't true, at least not where STO is concerned. Speaking of PvP in its previous state, back when it was still alive with a fairly active (though relatively small) community...
You had to PvE to PvP. PvPers required gear from PvE to min/max effectively, and they needed it as fast as possible, because the better gear they had, the more effective they were in PvP, which means they needed to be able to blow through the highest levels of PvE with relative ease--and they did. The PvP community back in the day would faceroll the most difficult PvE content like it was nothing. You couldn't really just coast by in PvP in STO like you could in PvE. You couldn't just take your time, or hope everyone else can carry you, because if you did do that, you'd just get blown up inside of an alpha strike every time you entered a battle. So, PvPers had to be good at PvE in order to succeed in PvP.
So to say that PvPers don't know the challenges of PvE is simply wrong given the fact that they generally were PvEing at the highest level for the sake of being able to PvP at the highest level. The reverse is most likely very true however--PvEers have never had to PvP in order to efficiently and effectively get desired rewards since PvP has never really offered exclusive (or even especially valuable) rewards of any kind. Everything you could get in PvP could be acquired much easier in PvE. So it's likely that the vast majority of PvEers aren't especially familiar with PvP in STO.
Sorry dude but read my whole post... the whole thing and not just the first sentence...
I did.
Personally I think it’s a lot harder to get in the top end of PvE then PvP. I found completing NWS far harder than any PvP groups I have done. Getting in the top % of PvE speed runs or the top % of DPS runs is harder than PvP match's I do. To get in the top % of PvE groups has taken more precision flying, more timing of skills then what I need to survive at PvP.
One big difference I find between PvP and PvE is PvP builds often focus on single or limited target damage while PvE builds tend to be best doing AoE or muti target damage. Taking those good PvP builds into PvE fails as the PvP build isn't doing enough muti target damage. Just like taking those PvE builds don't do well as PvE as the damage is less focused. Also many of the powers we use in PvP are useless or ineffective at PvE. For example drain builds tend to be a effective in PvP but for the most part ineffective in PvE.
My PvE builds dish out over x10 more damage at PvE then my PvP builds. So I don't see the point in comparing both as you build both for different goals and reasons.
Personally I never found that a problem as most of the time a single PvP ship doing all that isn’t going to break my tank while in PvE I have to be far more careful. Looking back at over the past week and I died 0 times in all my PvP matches this week but I cannot say the same for PvE.
Have you not heard of the Aggronauts? Just look at SCM speed records and you will see mostly Fed and Eng.
Literally 2 years ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/1gnvmy/definitive_eps_flow_regulators_do_TRIBBLE_topic/
Really? I couldn't tell because you're talking about things that happened so long ago they have nothing to do with the game right now. All that old content was and still is faceroll easy for most everyone but the newer content like HSE (post DR), GGE, ect. (not Korfez, that's stupid easy) does have a lot of challenge. Not PvP challenge but a different set of challenges like agro management, positioning, etc. Ignoring that does make one look ignorant. This is all coming from a PvPer. I've been PvPing (and still do) since I discovered Ker'rat in January after the game went F2P.
There was a guy in the DPS channels mouthing off one day (about 2-3 weeks ago) about how we're all idiots in the DPS channel's. And that our chasing DPS was a waste of time.
He then offered a PvP to anyone in the channel, I accepted with my FBP build (figured he would be another Bfaw Kemo player).
But low and behold, this guy was using the cheesiest of PVP setups; Res Beam/SIC, and neutronic torp spread with tractor beam repulsor. All shield bypassing cheese. Dealing PHYS/Kinetic damage.
He flew a scryer as well, so even worse with Override system safties.
I was like "are you serious... you're going to talk all kinds of TRIBBLE in the DPS channel, and offer pvp, and then you have the nerve to run the cheesiest of the cheese exploits to prove your point."
What was this guy trying to do ? Pat himself on the back because he copy/pasted the latest broken game mechanics ?
Its like the Disable/Ionic/neut dorks that were everywhere after DR was released.
Just a plain and simple, follower sheep using the latest exploit build.
Anyway I wanted a rematch, to switch up what I was using to counter his kin/phys shield bypassing cheese, but he suddenly had no time for a rematch, once I knew his game.
Funny how that happened.
I was going to ask what he was using before the match, but wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, that someone talking this much trash wouldn't dare be using the shield bypass TRIBBLE.
But I guess that was giving to much credit where it wasn't due.
Cant stand stuff like that.
You didn't die in pvp ...but you die in PvE ?? What in God's name are you doing ?
That seems back words to me.
What happens to your Resistances when you go into pve ?
If you can survive sustained player attacks, you should be more then durable enough not to die in PvE.
Strange...
EDit: I mean, I know the builds change going from PvE to PvP, but wow, that's strange coming from someone who knows how to tank in PvP.
Not trying to be rude...
I'm just curious, do you change your build drastically or something ?
I always found surviving in PvE really easy even with bare minimum resistances.
How do you force dps onto people? by using debuffs on enemy ships?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
4/5 players using -Th Consoles, Aggro goes onto the guy without the -Th consoles.
5th person must now use -Th Consoles so he doesn't take all of the damage.
Interesting..
I find I need like 55-65% resistances with Res buffs like Polarize hull and Aux2 ID while doing PvP, but like 5-20% in PvE is usually okay for me with Polarize and Aux2ID.
And all of it still applies, regardless. The relationship between PvE and PvP hasn't really changed. PvPers still have to PvE to succeed at PvP, and PvEers still have no need to PvP to succeed at PvE. Ergo, the assertion that PvPers don't understand the challenges of PvE is, yet again, entirely baseless and in disregard of how the game has functioned in the past, and continues to function in the present.
Shouldn't be too difficult to follow.
yeah that's pretty much it. If this was before DR I would have agreed with @deleroux but things have changed a lot.