Wait wait voporak, hold on, i wasn't assuming that you had said that lol
It's just a personal thought i did after all these changes without reading last pages. Indeed as you say, there aren't other solutions atm, so i just wanted to understand if we already had a common ground to discuss about.
-allow lvl60, because you can't decide to not level up. Even doing only vpvp matches, at the end you gain expertise and skill points . You can't escape from this mechanic... (tell me if i'm wrong about this point)
-not allow specialization trees, simply because you can decide to not spend points and letting them inactive/blocked
What do you think about?
TO be honest imo if you guys are going to continue this and have it stick around your going to have to allow the specilization stuff.
Your simply not going to attract any new players by asking them to dedicate a toon to nothing else. It was different when with a few clicks they could change from PvE full triats mode to vPvP striped down mode. Asking them to take a toon and never ever do anything other then the most basic pve on it ever again is going to be asking allot.
TO be honest imo if you guys are going to continue this and have it stick around your going to have to allow the specilization stuff.
Your simply not going to attract any new players by asking them to dedicate a toon to nothing else. It was different when with a few clicks they could change from PvE full triats mode to vPvP striped down mode. Asking them to take a toon and never ever do anything other then the most basic pve on it ever again is going to be asking allot.
TO be honest imo if you guys are going to continue this and have it stick around your going to have to allow the specilization stuff.
Your simply not going to attract any new players by asking them to dedicate a toon to nothing else. It was different when with a few clicks they could change from PvE full triats mode to vPvP striped down mode. Asking them to take a toon and never ever do anything other then the most basic pve on it ever again is going to be asking allot.
I know. That's why I hate specializations. If you can come up with a reasonable solution, I'm all ears.
I know. That's why I hate specializations. If you can come up with a reasonable solution, I'm all ears.
I wish I had a perfect one for you. We know Cryptic won't ever give us the option to turn it off... although perhaps a free reset type / respec button... where the points would have to be respent in same tree they where already in. (to prevent people just repsecing when ever a new tree was released).
That however is asking Cryptic to do something... and I think we know they won't... I guess people could flip back and forth with ground/space in the same tree which they wouldn't like. Of course they would likely also stick a cost on it cause they don't do nothing that doesn't cost.
I guess for now all we can do is wait for a few people to get a good amount of spec points spent. Then test a vPvP match with standard vPvP rules accept for the added spec. It may not be as bad as we think. Yes there is lots of stuff in the tree like flanking and extra acc... but mostly everything offsets. The only issue would be some people having lots and some people having none. I don't know how you can do much about that other then people being kind to one another and doing sort of TD style rules where at least you split the guys with lots up spec up on opposing sides and try to balance the games a bit.
Of course Ideally Cryptic would simply have a Spec deactivation button. We know that isn't going to happen though... from what we have seen of there code through all the bugs I think its safe to say it would be a nightmare to code, and not a simple 5 min thing.
I know. That's why I hate specializations. If you can come up with a reasonable solution, I'm all ears.
Well, we either ask anyone new to set up a VPvP alt, or we just have to accept anyone new will need to grind out Fleet Admiral with all specialisations completed. At least it eventually caps and only relies on the infinitely available skill points...
There's also the issue that if we allow specializations, it'll significantly take away from the new player friendliness and introduce grinding to VPvP.
well, at least the specialization grind is one you can do whilst doing whatever you damn well please instead of being shoehorned into 2-3 pieces of content, since you get the points from gaining skill points, and skill points come from pretty much EVERYTHING
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
There's also the issue that if we allow specializations, it'll significantly take away from the new player friendliness and introduce grinding to VPvP.
As said - Rock and hard place. There is no easy answer, we either do one thing with non-beneficial results or do the opposite thing and have different non-beneficial results.
Personally, I vote allow the damned traits, eventually everyone will be equal and it is a lot lower a demand than essentially requiring VPvP only Alts.
I don't like either, I just think allowing traits is less objectionable...
well, at least the specialization grind is one you can do whilst doing whatever you damn well please instead of being shoehorned into 2-3 pieces of content, since you get the points from gaining skill points, and skill points come from pretty much EVERYTHING
Of course Ideally Cryptic would simply have a Spec deactivation button. We know that isn't going to happen though... from what we have seen of there code through all the bugs I think its safe to say it would be a nightmare to code, and not a simple 5 min thing.
Eh, this would be a great solution but... :rolleyes: cryptic, u know. Btw, nothing forbids us to try to ask devs for a solution like this one. At least a tentative :P
Eh, this would be a great solution but... :rolleyes: cryptic, u know. Btw, nothing forbids us to try to ask devs for a solution like this one. At least a tentative :P
Worth a shot. Probably be no, but it cant hurt to try...
Besides specialisation points, is there anything that affects performance when going from 50 to 60? Or is a lvl 50 equivalent to a lvl 60 without specialisation (when using the same plain T5 gear / ship)?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Besides specialisation points, is there anything that affects performance when going from 50 to 60? Or is a lvl 50 equivalent to a lvl 60 without specialisation (when using the same plain T5 gear / ship)?
Its all about the spec stuff. For pvp though I have a feeling that it will mostly wash out... at least I'm hoping. There are a ton of defense bonuses ... but there is also a ton of offensive bonuses. They add up to the difference between being able to do higher end PvE or not though. Which is why I say asking new players to skip it is asking a lot it pretty much means never doing anything other then normal mod PvE Ques... being complained about in Advanced... and a pure troll if they try E mode.
I don't know not sure how many new new players are going to be popping by for any pvp anyway. Not to sound negative... just saying pehraps the one clean vPvP toon isn't the end of the world. Another down side of courese is people not really being flexable where they can jump in a healer or something instead to even up sides.
If the spec grind was allowed, it would mean the introduction of an inescapable timegate on VPvP. And I really don't like substantial timegating. If some old friend comes back and needs a couple million to set up a VPvP toon, I can help them out, but if they need to invest several weeks/months then VPvP's entry requirements are not better than "Real PVP".
If the spec grind was allowed, it would mean the introduction of an inescapable timegate on VPvP. And I really don't like substantial timegating. If some old friend comes back and needs a couple million to set up a VPvP toon, I can help them out, but if they need to invest several weeks/months then VPvP's entry requirements are not better than "Real PVP".
That's a good point. I guess people will just have to leave a vanilla toon around. I guess there useful for running contraband missions outside of PvP anyway. lol
They will also have to resist the urge to click any spec point stuff... cause once you do there is no undoing it ever.
If the spec grind was allowed, it would mean the introduction of an inescapable timegate on VPvP. And I really don't like substantial timegating. If some old friend comes back and needs a couple million to set up a VPvP toon, I can help them out, but if they need to invest several weeks/months then VPvP's entry requirements are not better than "Real PVP".
2 things.
1 - its just skill points - you know, those numbers everyone has millions of with no effort what so ever? Those. It is pretty much impossible NOT to max out specialisation points.
And anyway, once you have it is bonus Dil, so the chances are anyone new will want them if only for making PvE take less time.
2 - People were maxing these Specialisations on Day One of DR, so while it is an inescapeable timegate on VPvP, it doesn't actually take that long - it is an extra grind yes, but it will likely be preferred over needing to set aside a spare character.
The major issue is at some point more will be added, but even then, it is only skill points to earn them.
The major issue is at some point more will be added, but even then, it is only skill points to earn them.
That's yet another problem. If we allow specializations now, we have no idea what could be done with them in the future. In a year, we could be up to our neck in added stats and clickies from them.
That's yet another problem. If we allow specializations now, we have no idea what could be done with them in the future. In a year, we could be up to our neck in added stats and clickies from them.
Same as Rep Traits probably. Not that it would take 40 days to level up enough to get however many specialisations they do.
It really is a damned if we do, damned if we don't.
To me, that means we allow them as it is easier to ask "You will need to get all these little bonuses, which will also help in every other bit of STO you do, reward you a little Dilithium, and which you have likely started on already, in order to do VPvP" Than it is to say "You will need to dedicate a character to VPvP, as we don't allow Specialisation traits" (a reasonable assumption being someone may well already earn some by the time they want to do VPvP.)
It is power creep, and it is quite annoying, but at least it is free power creep available to everyone just by playing STO, based on a resource you can easily accumulate millions of.
Same as Rep Traits probably. Not that it would take 40 days to level up enough to get however many specialisations they do.
It really is a damned if we do, damned if we don't.
To me, that means we allow them as it is easier to ask "You will need to get all these little bonuses, which will also help in every other bit of STO you do, reward you a little Dilithium, and which you have likely started on already, in order to do VPvP" Than it is to say "You will need to dedicate a character to VPvP, as we don't allow Specialisation traits" (a reasonable assumption being someone may well already earn some by the time they want to do VPvP.)
It is power creep, and it is quite annoying, but at least it is free power creep available to everyone just by playing STO, based on a resource you can easily accumulate millions of.
As others have pointed out it's time gated powercreep w/no end to it in site. They aren't that insignificant either, anti-movement debuffs would allow for higher defenses even if just slowed and not at a full stop, resists when shield facing drops, regen rate boosts when shield facing drops aren't small when considering shields mitigate torps and resists boost all repairs including those from allies. This doesn't even cover offensive ones.
Imo, it's better just have toons which don't require investment time for upkeep and keep time gated powers out of it. Technically all reps are "free" power creep as well.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
As others have pointed out it's time gated powercreep w/no end to it in site. They aren't that insignificant either, anti-movement debuffs would allow for higher defenses even if just slowed and not at a full stop, resists when shield facing drops, regen rate boosts when shield facing drops aren't small when considering shields mitigate torps and resists boost all repairs including those from allies. This doesn't even cover offensive ones.
Imo, it's better just have toons which don't require investment time for upkeep and keep time gated powers out of it. Technically all reps are "free" power creep as well.
I never said it was not significant, or that it didn't have an end in sight - I am saying we need to look at the wider picture.
For new players and current players, if we ban it we will have to tell new people they will need to create a brand new character for VPvP, who will have a harder time in PvE and who will never be competitive in normal PvP.
Or, we can tell them that they will need to finish a grind that they were going to do anyway, and will probably have already started by the time they learn about VPvP - I played STO for a good 5 or 6 months by the time I even worked out PvP existed in STO, let alone that I might actually try it.
It is a bad situation, but enforcing no Specialisations is the worse course of action in my view.
I never said it was not significant, or that it didn't have an end in sight - I am saying we need to look at the wider picture.
For new players and current players, if we ban it we will have to tell new people they will need to create a brand new character for VPvP, who will have a harder time in PvE and who will never be competitive in normal PvP.
Or, we can tell them that they will need to finish a grind that they were going to do anyway, and will probably have already started by the time they learn about VPvP - I played STO for a good 5 or 6 months by the time I even worked out PvP existed in STO, let alone that I might actually try it.
It is a bad situation, but enforcing no Specialisations is the worse course of action in my view.
"You will need to get all these little bonuses, which will also help in every other bit of STO you do"
I took the above portion to be dismissive as of the powers' impact. Seriously, that stuff is significant. Imo, the movement bonuses/abilities alone would decide most escort fights, ala Bug ships.
Regarding new players and VPvP toons:
They could utilize ground focused toons regarding the new system and stay out of space stuff (they could avoid they 2ndary space on altogether), use an item mule, use a doff alt, use an off faction alt for playing the market, or use a test alt for learning how Captain's/factions that's not their main really play. I'm sure there are other reasons, but I don't think it's that big a deal.
Really how long does it take to get to level 50 anyway, 2 weeks casually or a weekend if they Rush? For a couple of million ECs they can buy a mirror ship and fit it. Then spend a couple million more over time to get slightly better gear if they want (or run some Story line missions that level 50-60 can easily do even now). After that there would be zero investment into the toon assuming Cryptic's mechanics stay as they are for the near future.
Tbh, this is a Pandora's box.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You both have perfectly legitimate points and I can honestly not say which is the better side. p2wsucks has a good point with this being a Pandora's box. If we open it up, there is no way to put it all back inside. But cbrjwrr also has a good point in that everyone will get it easily by doing anything.
I'd like to hear everyone's (and anyone's) opinion on this.
I could argue more, but really, this, exactly. It is a pain. (and little was just a throwaway line)
We are pretty much at the point where everyone who PvPs now knows about VPvP, and has decided whether to take part or not. Some are not, but I would say between a third to a half of current PvPers are interested - we will now be looking at new players or PvE players coming into PvP for the future, and they will be bringing at least some use of post lvl 60 content.
I suspect they would rather do a skill point grind on their main than do a skill point grind on a new character.
Well everyone will have to face facts that 60 is the new 50.
Those that come with it will be like standard XP points of before DR.
IMHO only way to keep things going.
The thing is it will NOT stop at 60 though.
"As mentioned earlier, we look forward to putting out additional Specializations alongside future updates. Our hope with this system is to revitalize the high-end content of the game by introducing new progression options for all players that can continue to feel rewarding long after levels have stopped being earned. We hope that this newfound sense of endless progression can simultaneously grant each player the opportunity to explore different choices as they continue to earn progress.
Although only a single Primary Specialization will be included with Delta Rising, we have already begun laying the ground work for an additional Primary Specialization to be released with an upcoming update. Future updates may also result in the conversion of an existing Secondary Specialization into a Primary Specialization, expanded to include additional progression options within that specialization."
At this point I'll stay out of it, but want to make sure everyone gets this thing will be a massive time gated power creep.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Comments
It's just a personal thought i did after all these changes without reading last pages. Indeed as you say, there aren't other solutions atm, so i just wanted to understand if we already had a common ground to discuss about.
TO be honest imo if you guys are going to continue this and have it stick around your going to have to allow the specilization stuff.
Your simply not going to attract any new players by asking them to dedicate a toon to nothing else. It was different when with a few clicks they could change from PvE full triats mode to vPvP striped down mode. Asking them to take a toon and never ever do anything other then the most basic pve on it ever again is going to be asking allot.
Its a rock and a hard place issue...
I know. That's why I hate specializations. If you can come up with a reasonable solution, I'm all ears.
I wish I had a perfect one for you. We know Cryptic won't ever give us the option to turn it off... although perhaps a free reset type / respec button... where the points would have to be respent in same tree they where already in. (to prevent people just repsecing when ever a new tree was released).
That however is asking Cryptic to do something... and I think we know they won't... I guess people could flip back and forth with ground/space in the same tree which they wouldn't like. Of course they would likely also stick a cost on it cause they don't do nothing that doesn't cost.
I guess for now all we can do is wait for a few people to get a good amount of spec points spent. Then test a vPvP match with standard vPvP rules accept for the added spec. It may not be as bad as we think. Yes there is lots of stuff in the tree like flanking and extra acc... but mostly everything offsets. The only issue would be some people having lots and some people having none. I don't know how you can do much about that other then people being kind to one another and doing sort of TD style rules where at least you split the guys with lots up spec up on opposing sides and try to balance the games a bit.
Of course Ideally Cryptic would simply have a Spec deactivation button. We know that isn't going to happen though... from what we have seen of there code through all the bugs I think its safe to say it would be a nightmare to code, and not a simple 5 min thing.
Well, we either ask anyone new to set up a VPvP alt, or we just have to accept anyone new will need to grind out Fleet Admiral with all specialisations completed. At least it eventually caps and only relies on the infinitely available skill points...
Very frustrating.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
As said - Rock and hard place. There is no easy answer, we either do one thing with non-beneficial results or do the opposite thing and have different non-beneficial results.
Personally, I vote allow the damned traits, eventually everyone will be equal and it is a lot lower a demand than essentially requiring VPvP only Alts.
I don't like either, I just think allowing traits is less objectionable...
That is one good side of it, at least.
Yep - that's the bit that makes it less objectionable...
Worth a shot. Probably be no, but it cant hurt to try...
I might say to hell with it, if I could access the game and review the traits, and change the message of the day.
Edit: If either one of you wants to try to find a dev and ask him, good luck.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Its all about the spec stuff. For pvp though I have a feeling that it will mostly wash out... at least I'm hoping. There are a ton of defense bonuses ... but there is also a ton of offensive bonuses. They add up to the difference between being able to do higher end PvE or not though. Which is why I say asking new players to skip it is asking a lot it pretty much means never doing anything other then normal mod PvE Ques... being complained about in Advanced... and a pure troll if they try E mode.
I don't know not sure how many new new players are going to be popping by for any pvp anyway. Not to sound negative... just saying pehraps the one clean vPvP toon isn't the end of the world. Another down side of courese is people not really being flexable where they can jump in a healer or something instead to even up sides.
That's a good point. I guess people will just have to leave a vanilla toon around. I guess there useful for running contraband missions outside of PvP anyway. lol
They will also have to resist the urge to click any spec point stuff... cause once you do there is no undoing it ever.
2 things.
1 - its just skill points - you know, those numbers everyone has millions of with no effort what so ever? Those. It is pretty much impossible NOT to max out specialisation points.
And anyway, once you have it is bonus Dil, so the chances are anyone new will want them if only for making PvE take less time.
2 - People were maxing these Specialisations on Day One of DR, so while it is an inescapeable timegate on VPvP, it doesn't actually take that long - it is an extra grind yes, but it will likely be preferred over needing to set aside a spare character.
The major issue is at some point more will be added, but even then, it is only skill points to earn them.
That's yet another problem. If we allow specializations now, we have no idea what could be done with them in the future. In a year, we could be up to our neck in added stats and clickies from them.
Same as Rep Traits probably. Not that it would take 40 days to level up enough to get however many specialisations they do.
It really is a damned if we do, damned if we don't.
To me, that means we allow them as it is easier to ask "You will need to get all these little bonuses, which will also help in every other bit of STO you do, reward you a little Dilithium, and which you have likely started on already, in order to do VPvP" Than it is to say "You will need to dedicate a character to VPvP, as we don't allow Specialisation traits" (a reasonable assumption being someone may well already earn some by the time they want to do VPvP.)
It is power creep, and it is quite annoying, but at least it is free power creep available to everyone just by playing STO, based on a resource you can easily accumulate millions of.
As others have pointed out it's time gated powercreep w/no end to it in site. They aren't that insignificant either, anti-movement debuffs would allow for higher defenses even if just slowed and not at a full stop, resists when shield facing drops, regen rate boosts when shield facing drops aren't small when considering shields mitigate torps and resists boost all repairs including those from allies. This doesn't even cover offensive ones.
Imo, it's better just have toons which don't require investment time for upkeep and keep time gated powers out of it. Technically all reps are "free" power creep as well.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I never said it was not significant, or that it didn't have an end in sight - I am saying we need to look at the wider picture.
For new players and current players, if we ban it we will have to tell new people they will need to create a brand new character for VPvP, who will have a harder time in PvE and who will never be competitive in normal PvP.
Or, we can tell them that they will need to finish a grind that they were going to do anyway, and will probably have already started by the time they learn about VPvP - I played STO for a good 5 or 6 months by the time I even worked out PvP existed in STO, let alone that I might actually try it.
It is a bad situation, but enforcing no Specialisations is the worse course of action in my view.
"You will need to get all these little bonuses, which will also help in every other bit of STO you do"
I took the above portion to be dismissive as of the powers' impact. Seriously, that stuff is significant. Imo, the movement bonuses/abilities alone would decide most escort fights, ala Bug ships.
Regarding new players and VPvP toons:
They could utilize ground focused toons regarding the new system and stay out of space stuff (they could avoid they 2ndary space on altogether), use an item mule, use a doff alt, use an off faction alt for playing the market, or use a test alt for learning how Captain's/factions that's not their main really play. I'm sure there are other reasons, but I don't think it's that big a deal.
Really how long does it take to get to level 50 anyway, 2 weeks casually or a weekend if they Rush? For a couple of million ECs they can buy a mirror ship and fit it. Then spend a couple million more over time to get slightly better gear if they want (or run some Story line missions that level 50-60 can easily do even now). After that there would be zero investment into the toon assuming Cryptic's mechanics stay as they are for the near future.
Tbh, this is a Pandora's box.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I'd like to hear everyone's (and anyone's) opinion on this.
I could argue more, but really, this, exactly. It is a pain. (and little was just a throwaway line)
We are pretty much at the point where everyone who PvPs now knows about VPvP, and has decided whether to take part or not. Some are not, but I would say between a third to a half of current PvPers are interested - we will now be looking at new players or PvE players coming into PvP for the future, and they will be bringing at least some use of post lvl 60 content.
I suspect they would rather do a skill point grind on their main than do a skill point grind on a new character.
The thing is it will NOT stop at 60 though.
"As mentioned earlier, we look forward to putting out additional Specializations alongside future updates. Our hope with this system is to revitalize the high-end content of the game by introducing new progression options for all players that can continue to feel rewarding long after levels have stopped being earned. We hope that this newfound sense of endless progression can simultaneously grant each player the opportunity to explore different choices as they continue to earn progress.
Although only a single Primary Specialization will be included with Delta Rising, we have already begun laying the ground work for an additional Primary Specialization to be released with an upcoming update. Future updates may also result in the conversion of an existing Secondary Specialization into a Primary Specialization, expanded to include additional progression options within that specialization."
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7007273
At this point I'll stay out of it, but want to make sure everyone gets this thing will be a massive time gated power creep.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter