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I don't think it can be. The fact that these can't be turned off is my biggest dislike of them. So faced with two bad options, I picked the better one, not allowing stuff that undermined the channel philosophy.
There are 3 ways of dealing with it.
1st - no above level 50 stuff, meaning everyone needs to set up pure VPvP characters. (who can't doff, can't do PvE, only VPvP, otherwise they will level up)
2nd - 2 tiers of VPvP, normal for normal, and new stuff for those who cannot keep specific VPvP only characters. (and when you cannot Doff or PvE with said alts, it is quite an ask IMO)
3rd - allow it and just... put up with it. At least it is all available to everyone, just requires a bit more levelling.
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
We don't need a TS server, we have our own. I was asking if there's a TS server where we can meet to set up vPvP matches and socialize.
Also, I'd like to know what's the rules for captains above 50. I won't be doing anything else than vPvP in STO, so I'd like to know if I have to grind to get to 60.
1st - no above level 50 stuff, meaning everyone needs to set up pure VPvP characters. (who can't doff, can't do PvE, only VPvP, otherwise they will level up)
this is impossible; PvPing gives you XP like everything else in the game
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
this is impossible; PvPing gives you XP like everything else in the game
eventually, someone's going to level up from it
You you guys are going to have to adjust your rules somehow... cause not leveling is impossible. Just doing pvp for an evening your going to gain 2-4 levels.
I'm thinking you guys aren't going to have any choice but allow some of the creep in... at least the ships you have been using won't level....
You can on purpose not select specialization stuff... however most of it would be hard to police. If you decide to allow it I have no idea how that would effect balance with every one in low hull ships perhaps... the weapons at mk x max would offset the creep there.
Bottom line you guys are going to have to have a few toons level and test some stuff out... cause not leveling isn't an option unless Cryptic adds a button to shut XP earning off which is pretty unlikely.
I have 300 free slots on mine so if you guys want your own private instance, have Horizon shout at me. However vpvp.failnoob.com:9988 does work already.
well, it DOES look like there's going to have to be some decision-making by the hosts/rules mavens for VPvP, but I think there are some suggestions for dealing with the new paradigm.
1. make sure to list your level when you're stepping up to a match, make sure everyone knows you have 'x' ability.
2. if it's unslottable, maybe some voluntary handicapping. If it's a bunch of 60's it's less of a big deal, than if the sides are unbalanced by having one or two higher-level toons and the rest being fresh fifties. It can't be enforced, but it's a sure bet that someone who doesn't, as a habit, word will get around even with the 'no naming-and-shaming' ruile. Increase communication is the key here. also access to 'gateway' is supposed to be 'on', so just checking to see what traits someone is packing could be of benefit.
3. there's not a lot to brag about, if you won by tilting the odds with something that everyone else said they wouldn't use when they accepted the rules and the challenge. If, for instance, someone gets hit with a trait-buffed ability in a 'no trait buffs' match, the shooter will obviously be cheating-and everyone in that match, on both sides, will know not to invite that player again. as will, presumably, everyone on their teamspeak. Eventually the channel runner will have to make a call-but that's having a League-if someone is a cheater, you eightysix them.
4. If the traits can't be un-slotted, then information and being up-front ahead of time is vital. "I have this ability", see? then it becomes a known factor.
Somehow, given the 'no upgrades' to the 'free' ships, this should only turn up as a problem for ships that have exceptions or exemptions.
The problem is for those of us keeping our characters both VPvP and normal PvP spec (most of us I suspect) is we are going to have to max all 3 specialisation bits in order to keep up, so it will instantly turn into a 2 tier system.
1st group - those who are new to PvP, and may be level 50 to 60 - one of the key attributes of VPvP is it is far more non-grind/new/casual friendly; we do not want to hinder that if possible.
2nd group - Normal PvP players, who max every spec point to keep up in PvP.
Obviously, a massive gap - This is why Voporak doesn't want any specialisation stuff in VPvP.
does a character gain anything when leveling? isn't it just universal consoles mk infinity and the t5u or t6 ship that levels?
if you don't spend your specialization points, stay in a non-upgradeable ship, and don't use any mk infinity gear is there any difference between a level 50 and leve 60 character?
does a character gain anything when leveling? isn't it just universal consoles mk infinity and the t5u or t6 ship that levels?
if you don't spend your specialization points, stay in a non-upgradeable ship, and don't use any mk infinity gear is there any difference between a level 50 and leve 60 character?
Mk Infinity gear stops at Mk XII, you have to upgrade it to make it better. Universals stay constant.
T5-U/T6 scaling increase and access to extra PvE content are the difference - also, Ker'rat is bugged currently, and unusable for Level 60s.
does a character gain anything when leveling? isn't it just universal consoles mk infinity and the t5u or t6 ship that levels?
if you don't spend your specialization points, stay in a non-upgradeable ship, and don't use any mk infinity gear is there any difference between a level 50 and leve 60 character?
Captain skills get a bump at one point I think Not the major ones but tac/sci/engi fleet I believe.
I think part of the other issue is, one of the reasons for vPvP existing it to mkae it easier for newer players to PvP at first. Asking them to stop leveling there toon for PvE isn't likely going to be an option for someone with 1-2 toons.
Yes lots of us vets have old toons we could just not spend spec points on cause we don't care if those toons never touch a pve map again... not sure that's true for everyone though.
Captain skills get a bump at one point I think Not the major ones but tac/sci/engi fleet I believe.
I think part of the other issue is, one of the reasons for vPvP existing it to mkae it easier for newer players to PvP at first. Asking them to stop leveling there toon for PvE isn't likely going to be an option for someone with 1-2 toons.
Yes lots of us vets have old toons we could just not spend spec points on cause we don't care if those toons never touch a pve map again... not sure that's true for everyone though.
yeah I agree. I think everything will be fine in the end. I would like a way to disable the specializations, but we'll see I guess.
Captain skills get a bump at one point I think Not the major ones but tac/sci/engi fleet I believe.
I think part of the other issue is, one of the reasons for vPvP existing it to mkae it easier for newer players to PvP at first. Asking them to stop leveling there toon for PvE isn't likely going to be an option for someone with 1-2 toons.
Yes lots of us vets have old toons we could just not spend spec points on cause we don't care if those toons never touch a pve map again... not sure that's true for everyone though.
Precisely. On all counts, I forgot the Captain ability changes...
One reason we made VPvP was to try to lower entry costs to do PvP - it is a major reason why PvPers are so few. Adding dedicated VPvP alts wont help...
Personally, I have 3 Feds, 3 Roms, 3 KDFs on Holodeck, 1 Fed in the Foundry, 1 Fed on Tribble.
Of the Holodeck residents, 5 are level 50, and have VPvP specced builds, of them, 4 also have normal PvE/PvP builds, in varying states, but only T'Rebek is remotely normal PvP spec, and even she is very below par. (even before DR, now she wont normal PvP until December at the earliest because I don't like just making up the numbers)
3 are pretty much RP only (my, Saurian in an NX from 1 to 60, Reman and Gorn) and my Klingon Sci exists as part of the KDF defection I started a while back before deciding I was rubbish at KDF play and gave up on him. (plus, he's a bloke, and male characters in RPGs never work for me, why all my mains in any game are female...)
In essence, 4 VPvP characters - Nalcari, Reman, Klink Sci if I could be bothered, and my Gorn. Of those, Nalcari I like doing the Dyson Battlegrounds with, so I need her PvE spec at least. The other 3 would do PvE but not "demanding" PvE where I would need to move away from VPvP spec.
So, from 11 characters, I have 2 or 3 I could use to be VPvP only. It is not ideal, but it will be passable.
Looking at the larger picture, of my potential 9 Level 50s, I will miss out on 24k Dil per day, as 3 VPvP characters will not be able to generate Dil without levelling up - even turn in contraband will level them up eventually.
I will also miss out on doffing on those 3 characters, and that is a pain as I like doffing.
I will also miss out on the various nibble PvEs - stuff like Empire Defence or Pi Canis Sorties KDF side, bits of content that may be small, but are nice breaks from the drag of endless STFs. (and now more rewarding thanks to incompetent puggers, and Cryptic breaking my favourite STF UIE.)
Overall, I can see the reason to not allow post 50 stuff in VPvP, it runs against the nature of VPvP - but, at the same time post-50 stuff is unavoidable.
I've been following this from the beginning: Good stuff! I've got a ship and gear ready to go (Mirror Heavy Cruiser... the nice Constellation skin'll be okay right?..) but this Specialisation thing's a problem since I really don't want to grind a new char just for VPvP - or anything else really... it's all radically ceased to be fun these days.:(
I've only had a quick look over the new system but is there any way you can set both primary and secondary Specialisations to ground before a (space) match? You could set one to Commando (ground) but can you switch the Intel one to the ground tree if you've got points invested in that? Or can you only put points into only one tree or t'other? Me having already put points in the space tree....
Can't check for myself since I can't get onto the server....
Also, is there any way that you'd allow any and all Efficient BOFFS, regardless of source? I'm thinking the liberated Borg ones from the C-store and the Lobi store. Functionally they're exactly the same as the Saurians; I ask because I had the Borg already, then went to the additional expense of buying Saurians just for VPvP... which I didn't mind except that now my maxed-out BOFF slots are full, and I need some more slots for Intel and whatnot. Would love to delete the unneccessary duplicate Saurians.
Anyway, I'll ask for an invite further down the line [if I'm still playing STO by then...] depending on how things go with the ol' Specialisation thing.
-allow lvl60, because you can't decide to not level up. Even doing only vpvp matches, at the end you gain expertise and skill points . You can't escape from this mechanic... (tell me if i'm wrong about this point)
-not allow specialization trees, simply because you can decide to not spend points and letting them inactive/blocked
-allow lvl60, because you can't decide to not level up. Even doing only vpvp matches, at the end you gain expertise and skill points. You can't escape from this mechanic...
-not allow specialization trees, simply because you can decide to not spend points and letting them inactive/blocked
What do you think about?
Never once have I said "You can't level up." I don't know where people are getting this idea from, lol. The implication of disallowing specializations is not spending points in them. This is a pretty crappy situation, but there really isn't much of an alternative that I've yet found, unless somehow you can temporarily deactivate space skills.
Wait wait voporak, hold on, i wasn't assuming that you had said that lol
It's just a personal thought i did after all these changes without reading last pages. Indeed as you say, there aren't other solutions atm, so i just wanted to understand if we already had a common ground to discuss about.
-allow lvl60, because you can't decide to not level up. Even doing only vpvp matches, at the end you gain expertise and skill points . You can't escape from this mechanic... (tell me if i'm wrong about this point)
-not allow specialization trees, simply because you can decide to not spend points and letting them inactive/blocked
What do you think about?
TO be honest imo if you guys are going to continue this and have it stick around your going to have to allow the specilization stuff.
Your simply not going to attract any new players by asking them to dedicate a toon to nothing else. It was different when with a few clicks they could change from PvE full triats mode to vPvP striped down mode. Asking them to take a toon and never ever do anything other then the most basic pve on it ever again is going to be asking allot.
TO be honest imo if you guys are going to continue this and have it stick around your going to have to allow the specilization stuff.
Your simply not going to attract any new players by asking them to dedicate a toon to nothing else. It was different when with a few clicks they could change from PvE full triats mode to vPvP striped down mode. Asking them to take a toon and never ever do anything other then the most basic pve on it ever again is going to be asking allot.
TO be honest imo if you guys are going to continue this and have it stick around your going to have to allow the specilization stuff.
Your simply not going to attract any new players by asking them to dedicate a toon to nothing else. It was different when with a few clicks they could change from PvE full triats mode to vPvP striped down mode. Asking them to take a toon and never ever do anything other then the most basic pve on it ever again is going to be asking allot.
I know. That's why I hate specializations. If you can come up with a reasonable solution, I'm all ears.
I know. That's why I hate specializations. If you can come up with a reasonable solution, I'm all ears.
I wish I had a perfect one for you. We know Cryptic won't ever give us the option to turn it off... although perhaps a free reset type / respec button... where the points would have to be respent in same tree they where already in. (to prevent people just repsecing when ever a new tree was released).
That however is asking Cryptic to do something... and I think we know they won't... I guess people could flip back and forth with ground/space in the same tree which they wouldn't like. Of course they would likely also stick a cost on it cause they don't do nothing that doesn't cost.
I guess for now all we can do is wait for a few people to get a good amount of spec points spent. Then test a vPvP match with standard vPvP rules accept for the added spec. It may not be as bad as we think. Yes there is lots of stuff in the tree like flanking and extra acc... but mostly everything offsets. The only issue would be some people having lots and some people having none. I don't know how you can do much about that other then people being kind to one another and doing sort of TD style rules where at least you split the guys with lots up spec up on opposing sides and try to balance the games a bit.
Of course Ideally Cryptic would simply have a Spec deactivation button. We know that isn't going to happen though... from what we have seen of there code through all the bugs I think its safe to say it would be a nightmare to code, and not a simple 5 min thing.
I know. That's why I hate specializations. If you can come up with a reasonable solution, I'm all ears.
Well, we either ask anyone new to set up a VPvP alt, or we just have to accept anyone new will need to grind out Fleet Admiral with all specialisations completed. At least it eventually caps and only relies on the infinitely available skill points...
There's also the issue that if we allow specializations, it'll significantly take away from the new player friendliness and introduce grinding to VPvP.
well, at least the specialization grind is one you can do whilst doing whatever you damn well please instead of being shoehorned into 2-3 pieces of content, since you get the points from gaining skill points, and skill points come from pretty much EVERYTHING
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
There's also the issue that if we allow specializations, it'll significantly take away from the new player friendliness and introduce grinding to VPvP.
As said - Rock and hard place. There is no easy answer, we either do one thing with non-beneficial results or do the opposite thing and have different non-beneficial results.
Personally, I vote allow the damned traits, eventually everyone will be equal and it is a lot lower a demand than essentially requiring VPvP only Alts.
I don't like either, I just think allowing traits is less objectionable...
well, at least the specialization grind is one you can do whilst doing whatever you damn well please instead of being shoehorned into 2-3 pieces of content, since you get the points from gaining skill points, and skill points come from pretty much EVERYTHING
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@siyanlis
@linkdown
Do you guys have a TS server?
Sent, as far as I know we don't have TS yet.
There are 3 ways of dealing with it.
1st - no above level 50 stuff, meaning everyone needs to set up pure VPvP characters. (who can't doff, can't do PvE, only VPvP, otherwise they will level up)
2nd - 2 tiers of VPvP, normal for normal, and new stuff for those who cannot keep specific VPvP only characters. (and when you cannot Doff or PvE with said alts, it is quite an ask IMO)
3rd - allow it and just... put up with it. At least it is all available to everyone, just requires a bit more levelling.
Actually there is one
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Do you need a TS Guys ?
*** R.I.P. ***
We don't need a TS server, we have our own. I was asking if there's a TS server where we can meet to set up vPvP matches and socialize.
Also, I'd like to know what's the rules for captains above 50. I won't be doing anything else than vPvP in STO, so I'd like to know if I have to grind to get to 60.
VPvP chat is in the chat box.
And as it stands, Level 50 only. (I do think it needs adjustment though)
eventually, someone's going to level up from it
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
You you guys are going to have to adjust your rules somehow... cause not leveling is impossible. Just doing pvp for an evening your going to gain 2-4 levels.
I'm thinking you guys aren't going to have any choice but allow some of the creep in... at least the ships you have been using won't level....
You can on purpose not select specialization stuff... however most of it would be hard to police. If you decide to allow it I have no idea how that would effect balance with every one in low hull ships perhaps... the weapons at mk x max would offset the creep there.
Bottom line you guys are going to have to have a few toons level and test some stuff out... cause not leveling isn't an option unless Cryptic adds a button to shut XP earning off which is pretty unlikely.
I have 300 free slots on mine so if you guys want your own private instance, have Horizon shout at me. However vpvp.failnoob.com:9988 does work already.
A private instance would simply change the PORT.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The problem is for those of us keeping our characters both VPvP and normal PvP spec (most of us I suspect) is we are going to have to max all 3 specialisation bits in order to keep up, so it will instantly turn into a 2 tier system.
1st group - those who are new to PvP, and may be level 50 to 60 - one of the key attributes of VPvP is it is far more non-grind/new/casual friendly; we do not want to hinder that if possible.
2nd group - Normal PvP players, who max every spec point to keep up in PvP.
Obviously, a massive gap - This is why Voporak doesn't want any specialisation stuff in VPvP.
if you don't spend your specialization points, stay in a non-upgradeable ship, and don't use any mk infinity gear is there any difference between a level 50 and leve 60 character?
Mk Infinity gear stops at Mk XII, you have to upgrade it to make it better. Universals stay constant.
T5-U/T6 scaling increase and access to extra PvE content are the difference - also, Ker'rat is bugged currently, and unusable for Level 60s.
Captain skills get a bump at one point I think Not the major ones but tac/sci/engi fleet I believe.
I think part of the other issue is, one of the reasons for vPvP existing it to mkae it easier for newer players to PvP at first. Asking them to stop leveling there toon for PvE isn't likely going to be an option for someone with 1-2 toons.
Yes lots of us vets have old toons we could just not spend spec points on cause we don't care if those toons never touch a pve map again... not sure that's true for everyone though.
yeah I agree. I think everything will be fine in the end. I would like a way to disable the specializations, but we'll see I guess.
Precisely. On all counts, I forgot the Captain ability changes...
One reason we made VPvP was to try to lower entry costs to do PvP - it is a major reason why PvPers are so few. Adding dedicated VPvP alts wont help...
Personally, I have 3 Feds, 3 Roms, 3 KDFs on Holodeck, 1 Fed in the Foundry, 1 Fed on Tribble.
Of the Holodeck residents, 5 are level 50, and have VPvP specced builds, of them, 4 also have normal PvE/PvP builds, in varying states, but only T'Rebek is remotely normal PvP spec, and even she is very below par. (even before DR, now she wont normal PvP until December at the earliest because I don't like just making up the numbers)
3 are pretty much RP only (my, Saurian in an NX from 1 to 60, Reman and Gorn) and my Klingon Sci exists as part of the KDF defection I started a while back before deciding I was rubbish at KDF play and gave up on him. (plus, he's a bloke, and male characters in RPGs never work for me, why all my mains in any game are female...)
In essence, 4 VPvP characters - Nalcari, Reman, Klink Sci if I could be bothered, and my Gorn. Of those, Nalcari I like doing the Dyson Battlegrounds with, so I need her PvE spec at least. The other 3 would do PvE but not "demanding" PvE where I would need to move away from VPvP spec.
So, from 11 characters, I have 2 or 3 I could use to be VPvP only. It is not ideal, but it will be passable.
Looking at the larger picture, of my potential 9 Level 50s, I will miss out on 24k Dil per day, as 3 VPvP characters will not be able to generate Dil without levelling up - even turn in contraband will level them up eventually.
I will also miss out on doffing on those 3 characters, and that is a pain as I like doffing.
I will also miss out on the various nibble PvEs - stuff like Empire Defence or Pi Canis Sorties KDF side, bits of content that may be small, but are nice breaks from the drag of endless STFs. (and now more rewarding thanks to incompetent puggers, and Cryptic breaking my favourite STF UIE.)
Overall, I can see the reason to not allow post 50 stuff in VPvP, it runs against the nature of VPvP - but, at the same time post-50 stuff is unavoidable.
I've only had a quick look over the new system but is there any way you can set both primary and secondary Specialisations to ground before a (space) match? You could set one to Commando (ground) but can you switch the Intel one to the ground tree if you've got points invested in that? Or can you only put points into only one tree or t'other? Me having already put points in the space tree....
Can't check for myself since I can't get onto the server....
Also, is there any way that you'd allow any and all Efficient BOFFS, regardless of source? I'm thinking the liberated Borg ones from the C-store and the Lobi store. Functionally they're exactly the same as the Saurians; I ask because I had the Borg already, then went to the additional expense of buying Saurians just for VPvP... which I didn't mind except that now my maxed-out BOFF slots are full, and I need some more slots for Intel and whatnot. Would love to delete the unneccessary duplicate Saurians.
Anyway, I'll ask for an invite further down the line [if I'm still playing STO by then...] depending on how things go with the ol' Specialisation thing.
Cheers, and the very best of luck to you all.
-allow lvl60, because you can't decide to not level up. Even doing only vpvp matches, at the end you gain expertise and skill points . You can't escape from this mechanic... (tell me if i'm wrong about this point)
-not allow specialization trees, simply because you can decide to not spend points and letting them inactive/blocked
What do you think about?
Never once have I said "You can't level up." I don't know where people are getting this idea from, lol. The implication of disallowing specializations is not spending points in them. This is a pretty crappy situation, but there really isn't much of an alternative that I've yet found, unless somehow you can temporarily deactivate space skills.
It's just a personal thought i did after all these changes without reading last pages. Indeed as you say, there aren't other solutions atm, so i just wanted to understand if we already had a common ground to discuss about.
TO be honest imo if you guys are going to continue this and have it stick around your going to have to allow the specilization stuff.
Your simply not going to attract any new players by asking them to dedicate a toon to nothing else. It was different when with a few clicks they could change from PvE full triats mode to vPvP striped down mode. Asking them to take a toon and never ever do anything other then the most basic pve on it ever again is going to be asking allot.
Its a rock and a hard place issue...
I know. That's why I hate specializations. If you can come up with a reasonable solution, I'm all ears.
I wish I had a perfect one for you. We know Cryptic won't ever give us the option to turn it off... although perhaps a free reset type / respec button... where the points would have to be respent in same tree they where already in. (to prevent people just repsecing when ever a new tree was released).
That however is asking Cryptic to do something... and I think we know they won't... I guess people could flip back and forth with ground/space in the same tree which they wouldn't like. Of course they would likely also stick a cost on it cause they don't do nothing that doesn't cost.
I guess for now all we can do is wait for a few people to get a good amount of spec points spent. Then test a vPvP match with standard vPvP rules accept for the added spec. It may not be as bad as we think. Yes there is lots of stuff in the tree like flanking and extra acc... but mostly everything offsets. The only issue would be some people having lots and some people having none. I don't know how you can do much about that other then people being kind to one another and doing sort of TD style rules where at least you split the guys with lots up spec up on opposing sides and try to balance the games a bit.
Of course Ideally Cryptic would simply have a Spec deactivation button. We know that isn't going to happen though... from what we have seen of there code through all the bugs I think its safe to say it would be a nightmare to code, and not a simple 5 min thing.
Well, we either ask anyone new to set up a VPvP alt, or we just have to accept anyone new will need to grind out Fleet Admiral with all specialisations completed. At least it eventually caps and only relies on the infinitely available skill points...
Very frustrating.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
As said - Rock and hard place. There is no easy answer, we either do one thing with non-beneficial results or do the opposite thing and have different non-beneficial results.
Personally, I vote allow the damned traits, eventually everyone will be equal and it is a lot lower a demand than essentially requiring VPvP only Alts.
I don't like either, I just think allowing traits is less objectionable...
That is one good side of it, at least.