That's just more depressing and not surprising at the same time.
Its a good thing for vPvP though... they aren't adding more stuff just more options. You can only have one primary and one secondary active. So if they add another primary it won't be MORE stuff it will be a second option.
I say it will be good cause new players coming in can select which ever to grind. If a new player happens to jump in just as a new tree hits that people want to use they will be = to the vets that are starting in on that tree.
I don't really see an issue with them adding new trees to infinity... as long as they don't at some point decide to let you activate a third tree or something stupid.
Looking at the way rep works for instance... a new player right now (not counting new delta) can be ready to go in around 2 weeks really... they CAN go crazy and grind every rep... but they don't have to. As long as they unlock 4 rep traits at level 2 that fit there build there pretty much good to go not counting possible rep gear. If they use fleet gear though + 4 level 2 reps its really not long at all to get a toon up to 50 Par. The new 60 stuff... from what I am seeing it doesn't take all that long to max it out if you really want to either.
If the spec grind was allowed, it would mean the introduction of an inescapable timegate on VPvP. And I really don't like substantial timegating. If some old friend comes back and needs a couple million to set up a VPvP toon, I can help them out, but if they need to invest several weeks/months then VPvP's entry requirements are not better than "Real PVP".
That's correct, but in the other hand, if i have to do a new char just for leave it without spec points, it will require a considerable amount of time for me.
Is a dead end, i think we can get rid of the secondary spec tree just be selecting a ground one (i believe there can be 2 secondary trees active at a given time, when they add more, we could have 2 ground trees for set as active), but there is no way of get rid of the primary tree (witch is a mix of space and ground)
The new 60 stuff... from what I am seeing it doesn't take all that long to max it out if you really want to either.
maybe not for players that have many alts for grind (like most of us), but for a new player which can only refine 8k daily (and probably can't grind too much EC yet), is really hard
maybe not for players that have many alts for grind (like most of us), but for a new player which can only refine 8k daily (and probably can't grind too much EC yet), is really hard
Wasn't really talking about the MK 14 gold upgrade D sink.
Was talking more about the spec points. Even a toon in a mirror with mission weapons can spend a day farming japory and complete half or more of the spec tree.
For vPvP we assume people wills till be using the lower tier ships and weapons. Simply not asking new players to not spend there spec points. That person with one toon... asking them to never again do or try to do any high end pve so they can compete in vPvP is a bit much.
So one option is to have everybody to grind up all their VPvP toons, possibly again and again when new specialisations with better abilities appear. And this bears the risk of harming the VPvP gameplay by introducing some level of powercreep.
The other option is to have players keep one character (or three, if you want all careers) without spec points (or create such a character, if you really only have one character). Instead of a possibly recurring grind this is a one-time effort that most older players with multiple toons have already completed. The only people who might actually need to do something extra are new F2Pers who don't have the alts and/or the character slots.
(And character slots are actually a non-issue, because one could simply create a second F2P account. Since everything C-Store related is banned in VPvP, one doesn't lose anything by using a second account without the unlocks.)
I have absolutely no desire to grind my VPvP toons up to 60. And leveling through PVP dailies that complete via VPvP matches is most likely not even remotely fast enough to be relevant.
Perhaps we can try a test. We can get five people with VPvP alts that don't have specs to fight five people with characters that do have specs stripped down to VPvP rules. We might be able to see how much a difference it makes. If over the course of say five matches the spec team wins every time, we'll know that if allowed specs will be necessary. If it's a mixed bag, then it might be okay.
We'd have to do several matches to know for certain though. I still can't get into the game so someone else would need to organize it.
Opposite way round - anyone new to VPvP now will be using characters who've started or are midway through, possibly even finished, these specialisations - Some people were Fleet Admirals on day one of DR, and a lot of players are now maxing this first specialisation set out.
Oh and another thing. If any admin/op wants, I can take the photoshop file of my signature and swap out the bear for another Five Nights at Freddy's animatronic and you'll have your very own VPvP sig picture. Why the animatronics? Because it'll match my sig of course.
I'm looking at you two, Gio and Cbr, you have no sig pics. :rolleyes:
Perhaps we can try a test. We can get five people with VPvP alts that don't have specs to fight five people with characters that do have specs stripped down to VPvP rules. We might be able to see how much a difference it makes. If over the course of say five matches the spec team wins every time, we'll know that if allowed specs will be necessary. If it's a mixed bag, then it might be okay.
We'd have to do several matches to know for certain though. I still can't get into the game so someone else would need to organize it.
The spec team will win every time. That isn't really the point.
Yes the spec is obviously better then no spec. Of course a team of 5 of them is going to roll a team with nothing spent.
Not really the question. The question is can you still attract a good number of people asking them to abandon a toon 10 levels short of the cap unable to do anything else at all accept be a bank/exchange/vpvp toon.
My concern is others have tried to start T4/T3 leagues ect back when T5 was end game and they all died cause no one really wants to leave a toon unable to do anything else.
Yes most of us vets have toons we could abandon like that I know I do... I have plenty that I have just reduced to bank status cause the game is just to much grind to support them anymore. I am just not sure asking new players to abandon toons that early is going to really work.
I guess there is also the option of just having people declare if there spec or non spec. Run 2 types of games... not sure how that would end either.
On one hand I agree with mancom and it would be great to keep it out completely... on the other hand I remember all those previous low level projects that all died.
Well if it is true that they're coming out with more of these, and that space secondaries can be switched off for ground, perhaps we can reach a sort of bad, but not that bad compromise. As someone earlier pointed out, we could have the space secondaries banned when another primary comes out and then we have only a few things to specs with.
I really wish we could find Bort or someone and ask them to put in a switch off option just for us.
Gio and I went over the primary specialization stuff. The only worrying ones were the +15% Crit damage and +5% crit chance buffs. It looks like the space secondary can be turned off at any time, so that's not a problem. I also put in a good word with a certain higher-up for a turn-off button for VPvP.
The primary specs, from what I see, and excluding the active powers, don't look too terribly bad. But then there's also still the need to grind them out, which puts a timegate on entering VPvP.
I have absolutely no desire to grind my VPvP toons up to 60. And leveling through PVP dailies that complete via VPvP matches is most likely not even remotely fast enough to be relevant.
reach 60 can be done in a couple of hours. Leveling up a char from 0 to 50, and buy the gear takes far more time
So what is the estimated /played for going from 50 to 60 + maxing the primary space spec tree (which as I understand it currently cannot be unslotted)?
So what is the estimated /played for going from 50 to 60 + maxing the primary space spec tree (which as I understand it currently cannot be unslotted)?
You don't need to max, only 15 points are needed in space. Going form 50 to 60 can be done in 4-5 hours doing power level with a decent group in tau dewa. The skill point can take a few more, i don't think it need more than 6 hours. It depend on how efficient you are with the time, it can take you days if you don't do it properly.
vPvP can also ban the intellige fleet, that will eliminate the need of do tier 4 (and you can ignore some of tier 3).
I'm thinking at this point, with secondaries being able to be turned off, it might be okay. Unless there's any more issues, I believe it'll be okay to allow primaries.
Then if it's decided that you'll allow chars with some Specialisations - since I'd rather stick rusty screwdrivers in my eyes than grind a new char from fresh - my Eng, with VPvP compliant ship and gear ready to go, firmly believes in what you guys are doing and would like an invite please.
Svetlana Makarov@perfectships.
If it turns out that those with Specialisations are too OP, you can always change your mind and reverse your decision then. And you already allow one of the products of IMO the longest grind in the game, especially post-9.5 'improvement': the Diplomacy T4 enemy BOFF.
You can get a few Specialisations in a few hours of casual flying about, but this char's been grinding towards maxing Diplomacy for effing ever, even with a fair few commendation XP boosters, back when I spent money, and still hasn't got there.
One thing I was wondering, when the efficacy of Specialisations in VPvP is better quantified, is maybe there could be a balancing exchange rate between having tiers in them and number of human/Naussican BOFFS you're allowed?
Switch Secondary to Commando, leaving only a max possible three tiers of Intel Space buffs IIRC. Tier 1 ain't all that, and most will have easily unlocked that in no time flat, so consider that free, like the one human/Naussican we're allowed.
Any player who's unlocked T2 (which does have some good stuff from the start), forfeits his one allowed human/Naussican. If T3 seems decent to the consensus, then you rule that this gets balanced by having to use some equipment that is of a lower Mk/colour, that approximately cancels the effects of the buffs.
*Shrug*, something like that for when everybody's got a better feel for what we're actually dealing with....
I really don't get it. People claim that they need the specialisations because otherwise they will be locked out of high-end PVE content and at the same time the effects of the specialisation are supposedly so tiny that allowing them won't significantly affect VPvP game balance?
VPvP used to be a good way to bring back all the old toons, but apparently this is about to go out the window.
Maybe I'm just too old and there are too many new players these days who don't have the huge number of lvl 50 toons that used to be common in the old days.
I really don't get it. People claim that they need the specialisations because otherwise they will be locked out of high-end PVE content and at the same time the effects of the specialisation are supposedly so tiny that allowing them won't significantly affect VPvP game balance?
VPvP used to be a good way to bring back all the old toons, but apparently this is about to go out the window.
Maybe I'm just too old and there are too many new players these days who don't have the huge number of lvl 50 toons that used to be common in the old days.
Thank you for wording exactly how I feel. My unrep'd Lvl 50 alts are doing nothing right now and VPvP would have been a good way to make use of them and have fun doing it.
Now if I need a Lvl 60 with specializations to be competitive in VPvP, I might as well just take my fully equipped toon and go on the queues. Or better yet, continue what I was doing before and not play STO.
I'm not going to waste my time grinding an ill-equipped and unrep'd character in PvE, with all the frustration this is going to bring, and then continue grinding to get specializations, just for the sake of playing VPvP.
That's how I see it, and I understand that other people don't have the same hate I have for the grinding which has become necessary at all levels in STO.
Well a level 50 will gradually get to 60 just from pvp right? So its either spend the specialization points or don't spend them. If you don't spend the spec points on your Vpvp alt, then there's no big difference between 50 and 60 right?
Also was wondering if a possible balance of sorts might be struck by allowing level 50/60 no specs to slot some traits when engaging those with specializations in order to balance the field?
Anyhow, I'm sure something can be worked out. Now if they would just fix the danged random slot rearrangement bug I'd convert my kdf sci farm alt for Vpvp. Meanwhile working on a kdf tac (now at level 30) since there's too many bugs affecting my kdf rom main now to play.
tl;dir: don't give up guys/gals, I haven't had good space pvp since Vendetta online and am looking forward to Vpvp in STO!
two words on specializations. They don't seem too groundbreaking for me. The Pilot tree can be deactivated by using the commando one which is 99% for ground. Intelligence... well I guess it'a going to be hard to convince those who don't have alts specifically for vpvp.
Specializations are just a natural progression of the game. Due to the fact that they're permanent, just accept that they're there and go on with it.
A newcomer level 50 will still get 10 specializations until level 60, he won't stop level 50 if it isn't endgame.
He won't be completely equal, but this is a MMO, sooner or later time-gated stuff gets in.
two words on specializations. They don't seem too groundbreaking for me. The Pilot tree can be deactivated by using the commando one which is 99% for ground. Intelligence... well I guess it'a going to be hard to convince those who don't have alts specifically for vpvp.
Specializations are just a natural progression of the game. Due to the fact that they're permanent, just accept that they're there and go on with it.
A newcomer level 50 will still get 10 specializations until level 60, he won't stop level 50 if it isn't endgame.
He won't be completely equal, but this is a MMO, sooner or later time-gated stuff gets in.
I've brought this up before, but to be clear from the same link I had in an earlier post:
"Each time the Captains Skill Point bar is filled, one Specialization Point will be added to the character, which can then be spent in any of their various Specializations. Although you will no longer be able to spend Skill Points in existing skills once you have reached level 50, all captains will keep earning them even after the character has reached level 60, allowing players to continue feeling a sense of progression long after they have stopped leveling up. Each time you fill the Skill Point Bar, you will earn another Specialization Point, which can then be spent to gain access to exciting new abilities and effects."
Specialization Points can be thought of as general Rep points w/o the slot limits Reps have. It rewards specifically long time players over new players. Imo, these aren't as insignificant as others make, even the early defensive ones that offer regen/resists boosts at the time when they're needed most (low to no shield facing left) are powerful. Allowing them in will allow in 2 things this was supposed to avoid:
1. Power Creep
2. Time Gated powers.
It would be great if they could be treated similar to Rep (another natural progression in the game which is banned) and were unslotable, but they aren't.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Would kinda wanna play this but really can't deal with the rest of the garbage this game have become.. and effort in finding old weapons is going to be troubblesome I guess, even if you did save mk11 weapons. + all those stupid reputation systems still can't be disabled i guess.
Comments
Its a good thing for vPvP though... they aren't adding more stuff just more options. You can only have one primary and one secondary active. So if they add another primary it won't be MORE stuff it will be a second option.
I say it will be good cause new players coming in can select which ever to grind. If a new player happens to jump in just as a new tree hits that people want to use they will be = to the vets that are starting in on that tree.
I don't really see an issue with them adding new trees to infinity... as long as they don't at some point decide to let you activate a third tree or something stupid.
Looking at the way rep works for instance... a new player right now (not counting new delta) can be ready to go in around 2 weeks really... they CAN go crazy and grind every rep... but they don't have to. As long as they unlock 4 rep traits at level 2 that fit there build there pretty much good to go not counting possible rep gear. If they use fleet gear though + 4 level 2 reps its really not long at all to get a toon up to 50 Par. The new 60 stuff... from what I am seeing it doesn't take all that long to max it out if you really want to either.
That's correct, but in the other hand, if i have to do a new char just for leave it without spec points, it will require a considerable amount of time for me.
Is a dead end, i think we can get rid of the secondary spec tree just be selecting a ground one (i believe there can be 2 secondary trees active at a given time, when they add more, we could have 2 ground trees for set as active), but there is no way of get rid of the primary tree (witch is a mix of space and ground)
maybe not for players that have many alts for grind (like most of us), but for a new player which can only refine 8k daily (and probably can't grind too much EC yet), is really hard
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Wasn't really talking about the MK 14 gold upgrade D sink.
Was talking more about the spec points. Even a toon in a mirror with mission weapons can spend a day farming japory and complete half or more of the spec tree.
For vPvP we assume people wills till be using the lower tier ships and weapons. Simply not asking new players to not spend there spec points. That person with one toon... asking them to never again do or try to do any high end pve so they can compete in vPvP is a bit much.
The other option is to have players keep one character (or three, if you want all careers) without spec points (or create such a character, if you really only have one character). Instead of a possibly recurring grind this is a one-time effort that most older players with multiple toons have already completed. The only people who might actually need to do something extra are new F2Pers who don't have the alts and/or the character slots.
(And character slots are actually a non-issue, because one could simply create a second F2P account. Since everything C-Store related is banned in VPvP, one doesn't lose anything by using a second account without the unlocks.)
I have absolutely no desire to grind my VPvP toons up to 60. And leveling through PVP dailies that complete via VPvP matches is most likely not even remotely fast enough to be relevant.
We'd have to do several matches to know for certain though. I still can't get into the game so someone else would need to organize it.
I'm looking at you two, Gio and Cbr, you have no sig pics. :rolleyes:
The spec team will win every time. That isn't really the point.
Yes the spec is obviously better then no spec. Of course a team of 5 of them is going to roll a team with nothing spent.
Not really the question. The question is can you still attract a good number of people asking them to abandon a toon 10 levels short of the cap unable to do anything else at all accept be a bank/exchange/vpvp toon.
My concern is others have tried to start T4/T3 leagues ect back when T5 was end game and they all died cause no one really wants to leave a toon unable to do anything else.
Yes most of us vets have toons we could abandon like that I know I do... I have plenty that I have just reduced to bank status cause the game is just to much grind to support them anymore. I am just not sure asking new players to abandon toons that early is going to really work.
I guess there is also the option of just having people declare if there spec or non spec. Run 2 types of games... not sure how that would end either.
On one hand I agree with mancom and it would be great to keep it out completely... on the other hand I remember all those previous low level projects that all died.
I really wish we could find Bort or someone and ask them to put in a switch off option just for us.
The primary specs, from what I see, and excluding the active powers, don't look too terribly bad. But then there's also still the need to grind them out, which puts a timegate on entering VPvP.
Just logging on now to say goodbye to Fleetmates - not much stuff to give away, so don't bother asking...
Wrote a decent length reply in your 'Bye all' thread. You'll be missed - all the best to you.
reach 60 can be done in a couple of hours. Leveling up a char from 0 to 50, and buy the gear takes far more time
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
You don't need to max, only 15 points are needed in space. Going form 50 to 60 can be done in 4-5 hours doing power level with a decent group in tau dewa. The skill point can take a few more, i don't think it need more than 6 hours. It depend on how efficient you are with the time, it can take you days if you don't do it properly.
vPvP can also ban the intellige fleet, that will eliminate the need of do tier 4 (and you can ignore some of tier 3).
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Changed my mind as I realised something important. (see Crono's thread)
Ill be on as soon as maintenance finishes.
Then if it's decided that you'll allow chars with some Specialisations - since I'd rather stick rusty screwdrivers in my eyes than grind a new char from fresh - my Eng, with VPvP compliant ship and gear ready to go, firmly believes in what you guys are doing and would like an invite please.
Svetlana Makarov@perfectships.
If it turns out that those with Specialisations are too OP, you can always change your mind and reverse your decision then. And you already allow one of the products of IMO the longest grind in the game, especially post-9.5 'improvement': the Diplomacy T4 enemy BOFF.
You can get a few Specialisations in a few hours of casual flying about, but this char's been grinding towards maxing Diplomacy for effing ever, even with a fair few commendation XP boosters, back when I spent money, and still hasn't got there.
One thing I was wondering, when the efficacy of Specialisations in VPvP is better quantified, is maybe there could be a balancing exchange rate between having tiers in them and number of human/Naussican BOFFS you're allowed?
Switch Secondary to Commando, leaving only a max possible three tiers of Intel Space buffs IIRC. Tier 1 ain't all that, and most will have easily unlocked that in no time flat, so consider that free, like the one human/Naussican we're allowed.
Any player who's unlocked T2 (which does have some good stuff from the start), forfeits his one allowed human/Naussican. If T3 seems decent to the consensus, then you rule that this gets balanced by having to use some equipment that is of a lower Mk/colour, that approximately cancels the effects of the buffs.
*Shrug*, something like that for when everybody's got a better feel for what we're actually dealing with....
VPvP used to be a good way to bring back all the old toons, but apparently this is about to go out the window.
Maybe I'm just too old and there are too many new players these days who don't have the huge number of lvl 50 toons that used to be common in the old days.
Thank you for wording exactly how I feel. My unrep'd Lvl 50 alts are doing nothing right now and VPvP would have been a good way to make use of them and have fun doing it.
Now if I need a Lvl 60 with specializations to be competitive in VPvP, I might as well just take my fully equipped toon and go on the queues. Or better yet, continue what I was doing before and not play STO.
I'm not going to waste my time grinding an ill-equipped and unrep'd character in PvE, with all the frustration this is going to bring, and then continue grinding to get specializations, just for the sake of playing VPvP.
That's how I see it, and I understand that other people don't have the same hate I have for the grinding which has become necessary at all levels in STO.
No thanks.
I have my hands full with my main and some alts already.
Also was wondering if a possible balance of sorts might be struck by allowing level 50/60 no specs to slot some traits when engaging those with specializations in order to balance the field?
Anyhow, I'm sure something can be worked out. Now if they would just fix the danged random slot rearrangement bug I'd convert my kdf sci farm alt for Vpvp. Meanwhile working on a kdf tac (now at level 30) since there's too many bugs affecting my kdf rom main now to play.
tl;dir: don't give up guys/gals, I haven't had good space pvp since Vendetta online and am looking forward to Vpvp in STO!
I have not allowed them yet, I'm going to wait until I know if my favor request sent to a friend in a high place comes through.
Specializations are just a natural progression of the game. Due to the fact that they're permanent, just accept that they're there and go on with it.
A newcomer level 50 will still get 10 specializations until level 60, he won't stop level 50 if it isn't endgame.
He won't be completely equal, but this is a MMO, sooner or later time-gated stuff gets in.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1267781
I've brought this up before, but to be clear from the same link I had in an earlier post:
"Each time the Captains Skill Point bar is filled, one Specialization Point will be added to the character, which can then be spent in any of their various Specializations. Although you will no longer be able to spend Skill Points in existing skills once you have reached level 50, all captains will keep earning them even after the character has reached level 60, allowing players to continue feeling a sense of progression long after they have stopped leveling up. Each time you fill the Skill Point Bar, you will earn another Specialization Point, which can then be spent to gain access to exciting new abilities and effects."
Specialization Points can be thought of as general Rep points w/o the slot limits Reps have. It rewards specifically long time players over new players. Imo, these aren't as insignificant as others make, even the early defensive ones that offer regen/resists boosts at the time when they're needed most (low to no shield facing left) are powerful. Allowing them in will allow in 2 things this was supposed to avoid:
1. Power Creep
2. Time Gated powers.
It would be great if they could be treated similar to Rep (another natural progression in the game which is banned) and were unslotable, but they aren't.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter