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VPvP - Fun, fair, vanilla PvP

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  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I have taken everyone's thoughts into considertion here, and came to a conclusion.

    My reasoning is that given the nerfing of xp gain, the time associated with leveling to 50 versus leveling to get the intel spec points, and the necessity of needing an extra character, it is overall beneficial to allow intel spec points.

    My hope with this Pandora's box is that like secondaries, you will only be able to have 1 primary active when future ones come out. This will keep power creep under control.

    I also feel that this pleases the maximum number of people, as the general attitude has shifted to being willing to grind the spec points needed. Comparing to rolling a fresh character, this appears to be the better option.

    This change will go into effect on Saturday, allowing for any last minute arguments someone might want to bring to the table. Do note that once allowed, I have no power to re-ban specializations.
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • etherealplanesetherealplanes Member Posts: 414
    edited November 2014
    voporak wrote: »
    I have taken everyone's thoughts into considertion here, and came to a conclusion.

    My reasoning is that given the nerfing of xp gain, the time associated with leveling to 50 versus leveling to get the intel spec points, and the necessity of needing an extra character, it is overall beneficial to allow intel spec points.

    My hope with this Pandora's box is that like secondaries, you will only be able to have 1 primary active when future ones come out. This will keep power creep under control.

    I also feel that this pleases the maximum number of people, as the general attitude has shifted to being willing to grind the spec points needed. Comparing to rolling a fresh character, this appears to be the better option.

    This change will go into effect on Saturday, allowing for any last minute arguments someone might want to bring to the table. Do note that once allowed, I have no power to re-ban specializations.

    What about the intel fleet power at the end of the tree? And what happens if the game is in a state where all ground trees can be selected thus banning the intel tree for space
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    What about the intel fleet power at the end of the tree? And what happens if the game is in a state where all ground trees can be selected thus banning the intel tree for space

    The active powers will still be banned. As for the latter part, I doubt we will ever get such a good situation.
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • nippeli222nippeli222 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    So is the amount of spec points spent limited or what?
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    nippeli222 wrote: »
    So is the amount of spec points spent limited or what?

    It is limited to Intel specs. The Pilot ones can be turned off, so those remain banned. Also the Intelligence Fleet (or was it Team?) remains banned because it is an active ability. Otherwise, all Intel specs will be allowed.
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • nippeli222nippeli222 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Thanks for the info
  • nippeli222nippeli222 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I have now a Mirror Patrol scort armed with Disruptors and rdy to run. This all cost me 2.6 millions ec. Just waiting that someone looks at the chat or is online.
  • etherealplanesetherealplanes Member Posts: 414
    edited November 2014
    nippeli222 wrote: »
    I have now a Mirror Patrol scort armed with Disruptors and rdy to run. This all cost me 2.6 millions ec. Just waiting that someone looks at the chat or is online.

    Idk I was going to have my toon ready at level 50 now it seems I need to get 15 spec points before I start now :( Lol the ****ing server is down again LOL Amazing!
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    So I guess this means I can forget VPvPing because I have zero desire to level my VPvP toons beyond 50.
    1042856
  • nippeli222nippeli222 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Why not limit to Tier 1 or maybe just one side of the T1 tree.

    Edit: I forgot to mention that Im talking about the Intel tree. We have to find a compromise so that the guys who have spent spec points into Intel before knowing about VPvP and the guys with a fresh 50 or they who dont want to grind. If we dont find a solution both will be without fun PvP.
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I know it does not seem very good right now, but this is the best option and I will stand by my decision. Below is my whole reasoning, and you can agree with it or not but nothing will change it.

    Let's face it: VPvP has more or less expanded as far as it can within its current manner. That is, having to roll a dedicated VPvP alt. The members of the PvP community can afford this, but most players outside can't - the regular people. I know you probbly won't like to hear me say it, but I want VPvP to cater to everyone, and since the PvP community constitutes a very small fraction of everyone, it is in the best interest of this everyone to not require a second alt.

    For the sake of your understanding, I will tell you that I have written a guest blog and Smirk has it. I don't know when it's coming out, but it will. It will open up VPvP to that everyone, most of whom won't have a free character without spec points that can just be converted to VPvP. I also plan to organize some recruiting drives for VPvP, to the everyone out there in the game.

    Another thing we all need to come to terms with is that VPvP is going to require some grinding, but getting a few spec points is easy compared to the horrific grind gate for anything else. These are things you will gain as you play the game, things that the everyone will already be getting for PvE. As much as I'd love an ideal world without any grinding, it is simply not possible anymore. We will have to accept that grinding is in fact a part of this game and what I'm asking of you is very little. And honestly, if you are not willing to grind anything at all, I can't really help you.

    The channel will still retain its vanilla-ness, and will still be accessible. But now it will be accessible to everyone. So you can accept my reasons for the good of all, mancom, or you can reject them as VPvP marches on.
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    So you sold out. Catering to potential new players instead of the existing ones, the cardinal sin of F2P games. Wow.


    I'm particularly opposed to any kind of post-50 grind for VPvP because allowing that kills any hope of bringing back some of the old players for the occasional pewpew. Getting them to dust off an old toon and re-equip their old Mk X gear? Possible. Getting them to level to what is effectively 75 or something? Won't happen.


    When thamupp came back for a while and we played VPvP together, it was the greatest thing in well over a year. It was as close to a S1.2 mode as one could possibly get. Oh well. I suppose VPvP was too good to be true. The last hope is that Cryptic will eventually enable a way to deactivate specialisations, but somehow I doubt that this will happen.
    1042856
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Bad idea, vop.

    It doesn't take that long to level a new guy to 50, compared to the horribly boring Argala grind to get spec points.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Look... I have been nice thus far... but the kid gloves are off, the brass knuckles are on.

    Are you really so stubborn that you would deny new players without spare alts the fun of VPvP, because you don't want to do a one-time grind? Let me emphasize that: A grind that you do once. And heck, you probably don't even need to grind them all out immediately. Gio and I looked at them together a while ago and you can still compete without all the intel specs while casually playing the game and earning them as you go. So stop treating this like I've murdered your ability to VPvP.

    I did design VPvP so that you can PvP with the minimum amount of grind. But moreover, I designed it so that anyone can hop in and play. Now think about this for a moment. Let's just say that when the blog goes up, 1000 random players who have only ever played PvE are interested. They look and see that in order to play, you need an alt with no specializations. Most of them will have already "infected," so to speak, their alts with specs. A few will likely have the means to buy or delete/recreate an alt for VPvP. But the majority, who don't want to let go of their alts or have to grind the dilithium to buy more slots, will be locked out. And then there's the need to slog through the missions to get to level 50. I bet you most people will be turned off. -OR- Instead, those 1000 players see that they can take an alt and disable passives when they want to VPvP, but don't need a new one because they're earning specs as they play the game.

    Are you going to deny them the fun because you don't want to be the better man and get a few specs that, may I remind you, would not even be a necessary prerequisite to VPvP? And also, given your last post, mancom, it seems that you are under the presumption that the general populace just has alts lying around to be turned into VPvP alts.

    Oh, and another thing. When was the last time you saw a match formed in VPvP? The last 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? 4v4? 5v5? I have not personally seen more than two, maybe three matches since DR. So we'll keep specs banned alright, who are you going to fight? Yourself? Are you and Snog going to do 1v1s or for all eternity? I know my channel, I know how these things work and contrary to your stubborn belief, VPvP will die if I do not stop stifling the entry gate to new people and many of our existing members.

    The scenario can go one of two ways for you. We could keep specs banned and you go on VPvPing in a shrinking little world, where eventually (read: very soon) you will struggle to find enough people online and ready for a 5v5 or even a 2v2, or we could allow specs and you won't participate in the fights until a specialization off-button is implemented. Either way you won't be participating in matches very much. Or, just maybe, you can man up a bit and do a little grind for the good of all.

    And don't you ever compare Vanilla PvP to a corporate entity. I am not catering to new players to milk VPvP for a profit. The only profit I get from this is the satisfaction in knowing that I have opened up a fun environment to everyone. You say I have sold out to "potential new players instead of existing ones." You talk about the players of the game as if they don't deserve to be allowed into VPvP, as if the existing players should get it all to themselves like a child who doesn't want to share his toys. What do you really, honestly mean by saying this? What do you think I'm trying to do with VPvP, sell it for EC based on member count? What would I accomplish by dumping on existing players? I will reiterate this: I am bringing the fun, fair environment to all. I am expanding the accessibility of VPvP to everyone.

    I will not choke VPvP in a slow death because a few people did not want change. This is not a big change, it is a little change, and VPvP will still stay as fun, fair, and vanilla as it has always been, while allowing everyone into the fun. Don't be a General Chang. Accept the fact that change has come and face the bold new undiscovered country with the rest of us. You guys can join us in the trek into it, or you can be left behind.
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • mindsharpmindsharp Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    voporak wrote: »
    Don't be a General Chang.

    But Chang was the coolest bad guy. He had an eye patch !!! True KDF hero if you ask me.
    Karrock/Karreck/Darth Karrock/Unspoken
    House of Beautiful Orions
    PUNISH THE FEDs
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    voporak wrote: »
    Let's just say that when the blog goes up, 1000 random players who have only ever played PvE are interested. They look and see that in order to play, you need an alt with no specializations. Most of them will have already "infected," so to speak, their alts with specs. A few will likely have the means to buy or delete/recreate an alt for VPvP. But the majority, who don't want to let go of their alts or have to grind the dilithium to buy more slots, will be locked out.
    Are you really so naive to believe that the guest blog will lead to a stable increase in the VPvP playerbase? How many TD matches are there these days? Do you remember that TD had a guest blog, too? PVP is a niche in this game. VPvP is a niche within that niche. So its decline is only mirroring the decline of PVP as a whole.

    If it turns out that you get a huge amount of new players, then I will be happy for them, but I very much doubt that this will happen.

    And the game is F2P. It costs exactly zero to make another alt because one can simply create a second account. Also, I have the impression that DR has made it harder to have multiple fully leveled/geared toons than ever before. I'm not the only one who is leaving old toons behind because the DR grind just isn't worth it. And if one doesn't have a dedicated toon for VPvP, the constant slotting and unslotting of doffs, traits and rep passives (which afaik still can't be done via the loadouts feature), it is still a bit of work to go from "full modern setup" to VPvP - it's not as easy as just switching ships.


    When I talked to players in VPvP yesterday after reading your rule change announcement, it seemed like those who were there weren't exactly in favour of your move.


    Why can't you go the soft route to ease new players in? When someone is making their first steps in VPvP, it doesn't matter if they have too many human boffs or forgot to unslot a doff or have a couple of spec/rep passives. As long as the ship/gear has more or less the correct level, it's fine for the initial pewpew. I certainly wouldn't kick someone from a match because of minor issues. And if they enjoy it, they can start building their toon (or a new one) to conform more closely to the rules. I did the same in the beginning and only after a couple of days my toons had the official amount of Nausicaans and Humans (which is a minor thing compared to some spec passives, but nevertheless was formally outside of the rules).
    1042856
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Let me reiterate something you seem to be missing. Specialization points have not stopped you or anyone else from playing in VPvP. You don't need to go out and get them all at once. With a little bit of effort, teams can be balanced before a match to have an equal number of spec points on each side.

    Before you go and give up, why don't you try forming a match? I don't think it will be quite as bad as you imagine it to be, if you keep the above point in mind.


    Also, how many VPvP matches exactly have you had since DR? How many were 5v5s? 4v4s?
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Okay look... I will keep specializations banned. But let's just see how active VPvP stays. Call it an experiment.

    So I would presume now that you would encourage everyone to suit up a toon for VPvP and we can get some matches going.

    Edit: And btw, you or someone can change the Message of the Day, because I am not in game.
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    voporak wrote: »
    who are you going to fight? Yourself? Are you and Snog going to do 1v1s or for all eternity?

    Maybe....
  • nippeli222nippeli222 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Let me atleast VPvP with my 1 spec point. I Vanilla 1v1nd a guy and I wasnt to "OP" and he had 0 spec points spent. I died just as easyly as he. I have Hide Weakness 1 which is a defense bonus.
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    voporak wrote: »
    But let's just see how active VPvP stays.
    You seem to be mistaken about one thing: I never claimed that VPvP is flourishing nor did I mean to imply that keeping specialisations banned will lead to an uptake in VPvP matches. VPvP will most likely die out, just like regular PVP is collapsing.


    But what I am saying is: I suspect that you won't get a relevant number of new players (who stay longer than a couple of days) by relaxing the rules. All that it will lead to is alienating the players we already have in the hope of attracting some crowd that is neither in regular PVP now nor could be attracted to PVP/TD in the past.



    VPvP matches since DR: 1
    Regular PVP matches: 0
    1042856
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    nippeli222 wrote: »
    Let me atleast VPvP with my 1 spec point.
    I suspect that this is no major issue, but I can't really judge about the effects of specialisations because my only post-50 character is only level 54.

    The spec descriptions do sound like having too many of these effects will significantly alter the balance, but I guess one point is no deal breaker if you already have it and don't have a second non-spec character.


    What worries me more is that private queues get auto-leveled to 60 which means a significant increase in hitpoints. I haven't tested yet whether it also levels up weapons, but this could be a problem for the whole balance of VPvP.
    1042856
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    mancom wrote: »
    I suspect that this is no major issue, but I can't really judge about the effects of specialisations because my only post-50 character is only level 54.

    The spec descriptions do sound like having too many of these effects will significantly alter the balance, but I guess one point is no deal breaker if you already have it and don't have a second non-spec character.


    What worries me more is that private queues get auto-leveled to 60 which means a significant increase in hitpoints. I haven't tested yet whether it also levels up weapons, but this could be a problem for the whole balance of VPvP.

    If by that you mean 'completely and irrevocably' than yes you are correct.

    And not to be alarmist, but if it's the RIGHT one point, same thing.

    STO is a game of innocent looking tiny numbers. Little guys. Little guys with a '%' after them. And because of the Hit System and the huge number of events per unit time, those little guys surprise the mathematically declined.:eek:

    Just saying.:)

    Cheers happy flying! :D
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Why don't we just run two sets of VPvP? spec points and non-spec points, people just mention it prior to X ing up.

    If there is anyone still PvPing now...
  • perfectshipsperfectships Member Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Are the folks, in general, who will be attracted to VPvP, the kinds of folks who will relentlessly grind to max out their Intel Spec tree? I'd have thought that they'd be more like me: No rush to get the Specs, let them just happen as I do the merry space stuff I'd do anyway, as I feel like it.

    Couple of dailies, FFA, MI, take my new ships out for a spin and some testing and tweaking of builds, TRIBBLE etc. The nearest I've come to grinding anything since I returned to the game with DR, is flying ships I'm not too keen on to get their Mastery Trait [hello Phantom...], and even then I've only done it a bit, as I feel like, before jumping back into the only ship I actually have mastered [and that just because she's so much fun!], which is my Eclipse.

    Wouldn't the hardcore grinders be the ones with gold ships doing regular PvP, or/and posting vids of how awesome they are [said without any snark at all, for awesome they are, and I enjoy the vids]?

    FWIW, my view is that Mancom (for example) is absolutely doing the right thing by abiding by the purest form of VPvP and its rules. He should not be inconcenienced at all by allowing Specs, and can fly the default rules ship/build as is.

    It's on those who have been accommodated (by relaxation of the Spec rules, if that happens) to have to attempt to balance their build, to offset their Spec advantages as much as possible.

    Don't take these builds too seriously but as a fast, general idea, you might take your default VPvP build (no Specs):-

    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=varyagvpvpdefaultwithnospecs1_0

    and adjust relevant bits of gear downwards as you get more Specs, ending up with something more like this (with all Intel Specs):-

    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=varyagvpvpwithallspecs2_0

    The big problem would be the Perception Bending one (Aux bonus to Stealth and Perception: at 50 Aux: +50.2 Stealth while Cloaked; +100.4 Perception: +74.2 and +148.4 respectively at 74 Aux), if Stealth is an issue in that match.

    And Redundant Sensors, with a chance to remove Confuse or Placate debuffs, once every 60 sec (10% and 20% chance, respectively, at level 1 and 2); if an adversary was running a Confuse/Placate build.

    Not sure what you can do about those....
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Whenever I see your forum name, I keep mistaking you for an exercise class...Perfects Hips...

    On a similar tact, maybe you could call those builds "So-so Ships" to eliminate any unwarranted expectations?

    As always, here to help with the PR.

    Cheers.
  • perfectshipsperfectships Member Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Lol, I told you not to take the builds too seriously: they were for illustrative purposes only.

    And nor would I take my username too seriously: if you could have seen the "Oh for fuuuu..." situation I was in when I had to grab a name quick (that hadn't already been used), the first time, you'd understand.

    The idea was more that the designs and lines of the ships themselves [ahhh, Excelsior...] were perfect, not my builds. It was only afterwards that it occurred to me how it might be interpreted.

    Keep up the PR - you've got exactly the right tone for it.:P

    Cheers.
  • nippeli222nippeli222 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I think I should change my name to SuperPerfectShips.
  • perfectshipsperfectships Member Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Well, your ships would probably be better than mine.:D

    [Though my pre-DR Fleet Ambassador was a masterpiece, and I don't care what anyone says....:D She's complete junk now though.]
  • nippeli222nippeli222 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Well, your ships would probably be better than mine.:D

    [Though my pre-DR Fleet Ambassador was a masterpiece, and I don't care what anyone says....:D She's complete junk now though.]
    She would probably do well in VPvP but do u want to normal PvP Ambassador 1v1?
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