Could it be everyone snowed in by this storm have all decided to log in? How many full instances of Winter Wonderland are running? From what I've seen, Q could be in NY right now...
Edit: Earlier I was having lag and rubberbanding issues, and my internet was slow, so I chalked that up to Vagizon and the weather we're having. With those issues I get the red words of death...
Just now I got kicked. Twice. No issues beforehand or warning. However, I can surf the net just fine. I'm inclined to believe it's the server this time around.
Edit edit: Ran the DNS flush posted above, minus the first "/", because it didn't work with it. I was logged in for a whole 11 minutes this time, vs. 1 or 2 minutes the previous time...
i've just been getting crashes and pop up telling me to verify file in launcher. run launcher and let it do its thing, start game, pick character then crash. same thing over and over.
What exactly is this DNS flush, and what does it do? You have to keep in mind, most of us in our 30s (me included) don't know anything about computers, much less how to make them work. So can you please explain that DNS Flush thing in "Old Man Mode"?
What exactly is this DNS flush, and what does it do? You have to keep in mind, most of us in our 30s (me included) don't know anything about computers, much less how to make them work. So can you please explain that DNS Flush thing in "Old Man Mode"?
The DNS (Domain Name System) converts server names into IP addresses. You system will cache previous answers to queries to the Internet to speed up response, but IP addresses can and do change, making the cached answers 'wrong'.... A DNS Flush will cause your system to throw away all of its cached answers, and cause it to go out and get a fresh one the next time you try to visit that server...
Hello. I've done the flush, it was succesful but i click on the play button from ARC to start STO and it just says : ''initializing Star Trek Online. Please wait...'' . And it does nothing. What to do? please help me if you can! Thanks!
Hello. I've done the flush, it was succesful but i click on the play button from ARC to start STO and it just says : ''initializing Star Trek Online. Please wait...'' . And it does nothing. What to do? please help me if you can! Thanks!
Sounds like you have a issue connecting to the STO Servers. What does your 'Trace Route' and 'Net Test' network diagnostics results look like? Both are described in this thread...
I'm getting d/c at the login screen, or as soon as I click 'play' after choosing a character...not just d/c from STO, but my entire internet access drops. Over the last couple days (since winter event started) this would happen once or twice, then it would work fine. Today it isn't working at all.
Texas, time warner/rr customer.
As an aside, I can play EvE for hours without any issues, and nothing else causes me to drop internet access.
I'm getting d/c at the login screen, or as soon as I click 'play' after choosing a character...not just d/c from STO, but my entire internet access drops. Over the last couple days (since winter event started) this would happen once or twice, then it would work fine. Today it isn't working at all....
If you are losing Internet access, that chances are that your router, (probably wireless) is being overwhelmed by too many simultaneous network connections, a known problem with cheap routers...
Shutdown all the other networked devices and see if the problem still occurs. Some STO configuration changes, (such as disabling the voice chat feature) may also help with this issue... And LED Christmas lights can contribute to this issue, as they can cute wireless bandwidth as much as 60% from their RF interference...
I can't imagine it's a router issue...I'm the only one using the connection (yes, it's secured) for my PC and iphone when I'm in the bedroom. It's also not a cheapie or improperly setup, I can assure you.
Nothing else I can see that would interfere with it; no other wireless devices or LED lights of any kind in my place.
I DID manage to get on to STO without any issues after reconfiguring some of my USB stuff. I have a 3-port hub with memory card slots I was using, and after disconnecting it and re-arranging stuff into different USB ports I haven't had any issues...so it could have been the hub I suppose (cheapie, gift from someone).
colorado us here, I get server disco then my internet "is not connected" have to refresh connection works 1-4 minutes and repeat THIS ONLY HAPPENS ON STO no other games/skype or 50 tabbed web browsing (yes I tested) so WTF...
colorado us here, I get server disco then my internet "is not connected" have to refresh connection works 1-4 minutes and repeat THIS ONLY HAPPENS ON STO no other games/skype or 50 tabbed web browsing (yes I tested) so WTF...
I agree I'm getting the lag problem just on STO not getting it from NF (known for its crashes and lag) and not getting from C&C either. While we appreciate you trying to help , Brandon, but apparently it's not a local problem all other programs are working just fine.
I agree I'm getting the lag problem just on STO not getting it from NF (known for its crashes and lag) and not getting from C&C either. While we appreciate you trying to help , Brandon, but apparently it's not a local problem all other programs are working just fine.
Other programs may not be routing you through the same "hops" that your ISP is routing you to to get to our server. That's the key difference in why one online service may be working without issue, and another not.
To be clear from my post earlier in this thread, there is nothing that we control that is not running smooth/ healthy/ etc -- all is smooth/ healthy/ etc. on our end. I'll need to refer you back to your ISP, unfortunately. I do hope it resolves for you soon!
To be honest this is an issue that Cryptic can control.
Your ISP is Cogent and they are the ones causing the lag issues by not upholding their end of the "Peering" agreement with other carriers.
"Free peering, also referred to as settlement-free peering, is a
contractual relationship under which two companies exchange Internet traffic
without charging each other. In order for free peering to be fair to both
parties, the cost and benefit that parties contribute and receive should be
roughly the same."
Cogent sends far more traffic to the other ISP carriers than the other ISP carriers send to Cogent's network.
Typically when this happens, the ISP that is sending more traffic will pay for the extra traffic that it is using on the other carrier's network to compensate. Cogent does not do this and the other carriers try to recover costs. Cogent complains and does not pay resulting in the other carriers limiting Cogent's use on their networks.
Cogent has been involved in most all of the complaints about unfair peering.
Your company is not the only one that gets the blast of lag problems because of the unfair peering practices of Cogent. They do this across the board and their customers get a bad rap because of it.
Cryptic can do something about this issue. They can get another ISP that does not abuse the free-peering agreement between ISP's.
It's all about being fair and paying when you are supposed to in order to keep things in balance.
The man has a point here. If it's true that Cogent is causing the problems and not the other ISPs then we have a bad apple on our hands.
Agreed. The suggestion has been raised before that cryptic should have a dedicated Verizon line in. Would save many of us a lot of headaches (and encourage use to spend more on the game).
... Typically when this happens, the ISP that is sending more traffic will pay for the extra traffic that it is using on the other carrier's network to compensate. Cogent does not do this and the other carriers try to recover costs. Cogent complains and does not pay resulting in the other carriers limiting Cogent's use on their networks.
Cogent has been the involved in most all of the complaints about unfair peering.
....
Though in reality, this is a relatively recent development, pushed by Tier 1 carriers that are seeking to expand their revenue stream... (e.g. Verizon pushing their own Streaming Media services, while trying to suppress Netflix traffic... And Verizon has refused the Netflix offer of installing Netflix caching servers in Verizon network centers to reduce the Tier 1 exchange traffic...)
Traditionally, Tier 1 carriers have always exchanged net traffic with each other without charge. And attempts to change this will have a serious impact for 'Net Neutrality', which is the current US Government FCC mandate...
It's not a recent issue at all. Cogent and Level 3 have had this dispute going on since 2005. In fact in October of 2005, Level terminated the "Free-Peering" agreement with Cogent because Cogent unfairly shoved more traffic down Level 3's "Throat" than what Level 3 was sending to Cogent.
The issue is that Cogent does not want to spend money to build more links/ports to the other Carrier's and instead EXPECTS the other carrier to build links/ports to Cogent for free.
This is not what "Free-peering" is about. Both companies are supposed to share the costs equally. If more links.ports are needed, then both companies need to build them to each other and that way the balance is kept.
I work for one of the major carriers and I am very familuar with this issue.
What you need to understand is that the link from Cogent to Cryptic is a good heavy duty link and this is why Brandflakes/Cryptic says everything in thier control is working fine, but the links/ports between Cogent and the major internet providers is not. This being due to Cogent's abuse of the "Free-Peering" agreements.
I'll do some more research on the NetFlix issue and post back here, but I suspect that NetFlix is a Cogent customer and that is why NetFlix has lag issues.
UPDATE:
"Cogent, which admits to having Netflix as a significant partner, is sending a lot of traffic to ISPs like Verizon FiOS. According to the Verizon post on the topic, this has created an imbalance between these peering partners (peering partners on the Internet agree to share equal amounts of Internet traffic for free).
"When the traffic loads are not symmetric, the provider with the heavier load typically pays the other for transit." explains the Verizon Post.
So I guess it's official then: Cogent is run by Iconians
In all seriousness though, this is definitely troubling for everyone. I'd hate to think that PWE would have to forcibly shut-off the servers for a good chunk of time to change ISPs. Might be time for the FCC to intervene on this one.
Would not take more than a day or two of downtime to swtich.
Problem is the cost. Cogent is the lowest cost out there, and nothing I repeat nothing anyone says here will convince the company to change. They look at the numbers and see that they are saving money, and tell that to the folks in charge. Doesn't matter if the sales numbers are off or population is down, they are SAVING MONEY.
Actually it does matter but that's a different team and the lag-in-sales will be handled differently, even if there is a direct link between the decline and connection failures.
I totally agree that it's all about the cost! As long as Cogent reamins the lowest cost provider for Cryptic then we are all stuck with the results...LAG and more LAG!
Maybe it is time for the FCC to get involved and setup rules for "Free-Peering" that every provider must comply with. That way if there are FCC fines that have to be paid to the government, ISP and Bandwidth providers can't hold us, the internet customers, hostage and the "Peering" wars would end.
I don't like more government involvement but in this case, since it has been going on for so long, it looks like it is time for governements to take action.
It's very clear that the ISP's and the Bandwidth Providers are unable to resolve this without intervention by the authorities.
"Cogent, which admits to having Netflix as a significant partner, is sending a lot of traffic to ISPs like Verizon FiOS. According to the Verizon post on the topic, this has created an imbalance between these peering partners (peering partners on the Internet agree to share equal amounts of Internet traffic for free).
"When the traffic loads are not symmetric, the provider with the heavier load typically pays the other for transit." explains the Verizon Post.
Cogent strikes AGAIN!
It is creating a imbalance in network traffic, but if you read in-between the lines...
The estimate made in the 4th quarter of last year, was that during 'prime-time' hours, Netflix was taking up over 60% of the total US Internet bandwidth...
This demand is being generated by Verizon subscribers (who are paying for the bandwidth) and smaller Tier ISP services (who are paying for the bandwidth). Estimated costs for a Gateway port is around $10,000, which is peanuts compared to the bandwidth/subscription fees that Verizon collects...
So whats the real issue here??? The growth of Netflix is taking a big bite out of of Cable 'Pay per View' fees, as its well known that Netflix undercuts these prices... This also explains why Verizon refuses to install Netflix Caching servers to reduce the Tier 1 Exchange traffic, as by making Netflix more reliable, would result in a bigger loss in 'Pay per View' revenues... Instead, by trying to get Cogent to pay a 'Service Distribution Fee', Verizon gets to have its thumbs into the growing Netflix revenue stream pie, while it continues to promote its own Verizon streaming media services...
And some Articles from last Summer's Verizon/Cogent issue...
NetFlix and Cogent are partners and what Cogent is trying to do is get free long haul services from Verizon and the other carriers to move the traffic to NetFlix, Cryptic, etc..
If Cogent can get free long haul from everyone then it is the one benefiting from the "Free-Peering" with Verizon and the others ISP's.
Level 3 said it best when it terminated the "Free-Peering" in 2005 with Cogent saying that "Level 3 was not in business to subisidze Cogent's business." No business should be expected to do that.
If Cogent wants to have more bandwidth and traffic to NetFlix (their customer) then they need to pay and build more links into the other ISP's. Not the other way around. The other ISP's gain nothing by paying for Cogent's bandwidth and traffic. Simple business policy here that's all.
Cogent wants long haul of thier traffic for free. If Cogent wants to be a backbone of the internet, then they should build it and not expect other ISP's to carry their traffic for free.
Cogent gets paid by NetFlix, Cryptic, etc. and Cogent needs to provide (and pay for) the long haul if they don't want to comply with the "Free-Peering" agreements.
Would not take more than a day or two of downtime to swtich.
Problem is the cost. Cogent is the lowest cost out there, and nothing I repeat nothing anyone says here will convince the company to change. They look at the numbers and see that they are saving money, and tell that to the folks in charge. Doesn't matter if the sales numbers are off or population is down, they are SAVING MONEY.
.....
And theirs something else to consider... Cryptic is located in Los Gatos California, while the STO Servers are located in Boston, connecting to the Cogent Boston Hub. This implies that Cryptic/PWE is leasing space in a Cogent Server Farm for the STO servers, so it would take more then a day or two to switch to another provider...
I forgot what server lag was, cause honestly, havnt had "any" lag in the other 3 games I have been playing..
and all I get is lag lag lag lag.. checked my connection.. fine.. played all the other games just to make sure.. everything was fine.. (mmo's mind you).. let me guess cryptic, more solar flair issues lol...
then, I said, well ill jump into an azure and get some rommie marks.. two astroids were broken.. TWO.... I mean I figured that would have been fixed as well..
so just like in office space, im gonna ask the dev team, "what exactly would you say you do here?" well besides for ruining star trek.. (honestly, dino pets now.. and ginger bread men, the 12 year olds must be extactic..)..
The lag issue will not improve or change for the better until the companies like Cryptic, Netflix, Blizzard, etc. get tired of Cogent and decide to get their equipment/services hosted by "real" Internet Backbone providers that do have massive connections to the Internet. All Cogent does is provide Data Centers and "Building" bandwidth to these companies and then rely totally on the "Free-Peering" connections to get those services to us the internet users via the real "Backbone" and Tier 1 ISP's without paying for that access.
Netflix alone has used up over 60% of the total bandwidth available for the entire USA at times and Cogent thinks they can shove this kind of traffic over the "Free-Peering" links and ports without paying for that massive traffic on the real Tier1 Backbone/ISP's network.
Old saying applies here... You get what you pay for!
So Cryptic, while it has a great and massive link into their Bandwidth/data Center provider (Cogent) it has a serious bottleneck getting to us from Cogent since Cogent does not want to have the necessary internet Backbone connections to handle the traffic load.
Cogent EXPECTS the real internet Backbone/ISP's carriers to provide it for Free!
Cogent step up to the plate and build the necessary connections at your own cost and stop causing major internet LAG!
Comments
Edit: Earlier I was having lag and rubberbanding issues, and my internet was slow, so I chalked that up to Vagizon and the weather we're having. With those issues I get the red words of death...
Just now I got kicked. Twice. No issues beforehand or warning. However, I can surf the net just fine. I'm inclined to believe it's the server this time around.
Edit edit: Ran the DNS flush posted above, minus the first "/", because it didn't work with it. I was logged in for a whole 11 minutes this time, vs. 1 or 2 minutes the previous time...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
My Ship Builds: USS Conqueror, HMS Victorious, HMS Concord, ISS Queen Elizabeth, Black Widow III
Click here to view my DeviantArt.
The DNS (Domain Name System) converts server names into IP addresses. You system will cache previous answers to queries to the Internet to speed up response, but IP addresses can and do change, making the cached answers 'wrong'.... A DNS Flush will cause your system to throw away all of its cached answers, and cause it to go out and get a fresh one the next time you try to visit that server...
Sounds like you have a issue connecting to the STO Servers. What does your 'Trace Route' and 'Net Test' network diagnostics results look like? Both are described in this thread...
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=225155
Texas, time warner/rr customer.
As an aside, I can play EvE for hours without any issues, and nothing else causes me to drop internet access.
Tried the dns flush, no effect.
If you are losing Internet access, that chances are that your router, (probably wireless) is being overwhelmed by too many simultaneous network connections, a known problem with cheap routers...
Shutdown all the other networked devices and see if the problem still occurs. Some STO configuration changes, (such as disabling the voice chat feature) may also help with this issue... And LED Christmas lights can contribute to this issue, as they can cute wireless bandwidth as much as 60% from their RF interference...
Nothing else I can see that would interfere with it; no other wireless devices or LED lights of any kind in my place.
I DID manage to get on to STO without any issues after reconfiguring some of my USB stuff. I have a 3-port hub with memory card slots I was using, and after disconnecting it and re-arranging stuff into different USB ports I haven't had any issues...so it could have been the hub I suppose (cheapie, gift from someone).
*shrug*
Thanks for the reply though!
I agree I'm getting the lag problem just on STO not getting it from NF (known for its crashes and lag) and not getting from C&C either. While we appreciate you trying to help , Brandon, but apparently it's not a local problem all other programs are working just fine.
Other programs may not be routing you through the same "hops" that your ISP is routing you to to get to our server. That's the key difference in why one online service may be working without issue, and another not.
To be clear from my post earlier in this thread, there is nothing that we control that is not running smooth/ healthy/ etc -- all is smooth/ healthy/ etc. on our end. I'll need to refer you back to your ISP, unfortunately. I do hope it resolves for you soon!
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
To be honest this is an issue that Cryptic can control.
Your ISP is Cogent and they are the ones causing the lag issues by not upholding their end of the "Peering" agreement with other carriers.
"Free peering, also referred to as settlement-free peering, is a
contractual relationship under which two companies exchange Internet traffic
without charging each other. In order for free peering to be fair to both
parties, the cost and benefit that parties contribute and receive should be
roughly the same."
Cogent sends far more traffic to the other ISP carriers than the other ISP carriers send to Cogent's network.
Typically when this happens, the ISP that is sending more traffic will pay for the extra traffic that it is using on the other carrier's network to compensate. Cogent does not do this and the other carriers try to recover costs. Cogent complains and does not pay resulting in the other carriers limiting Cogent's use on their networks.
Cogent has been involved in most all of the complaints about unfair peering.
Your company is not the only one that gets the blast of lag problems because of the unfair peering practices of Cogent. They do this across the board and their customers get a bad rap because of it.
Cryptic can do something about this issue. They can get another ISP that does not abuse the free-peering agreement between ISP's.
It's all about being fair and paying when you are supposed to in order to keep things in balance.
The man has a point here. If it's true that Cogent is causing the problems and not the other ISPs then we have a bad apple on our hands.
Agreed. The suggestion has been raised before that cryptic should have a dedicated Verizon line in. Would save many of us a lot of headaches (and encourage use to spend more on the game).
Though in reality, this is a relatively recent development, pushed by Tier 1 carriers that are seeking to expand their revenue stream... (e.g. Verizon pushing their own Streaming Media services, while trying to suppress Netflix traffic... And Verizon has refused the Netflix offer of installing Netflix caching servers in Verizon network centers to reduce the Tier 1 exchange traffic...)
Traditionally, Tier 1 carriers have always exchanged net traffic with each other without charge. And attempts to change this will have a serious impact for 'Net Neutrality', which is the current US Government FCC mandate...
The issue is that Cogent does not want to spend money to build more links/ports to the other Carrier's and instead EXPECTS the other carrier to build links/ports to Cogent for free.
This is not what "Free-peering" is about. Both companies are supposed to share the costs equally. If more links.ports are needed, then both companies need to build them to each other and that way the balance is kept.
I work for one of the major carriers and I am very familuar with this issue.
What you need to understand is that the link from Cogent to Cryptic is a good heavy duty link and this is why Brandflakes/Cryptic says everything in thier control is working fine, but the links/ports between Cogent and the major internet providers is not. This being due to Cogent's abuse of the "Free-Peering" agreements.
I'll do some more research on the NetFlix issue and post back here, but I suspect that NetFlix is a Cogent customer and that is why NetFlix has lag issues.
UPDATE:
"Cogent, which admits to having Netflix as a significant partner, is sending a lot of traffic to ISPs like Verizon FiOS. According to the Verizon post on the topic, this has created an imbalance between these peering partners (peering partners on the Internet agree to share equal amounts of Internet traffic for free).
"When the traffic loads are not symmetric, the provider with the heavier load typically pays the other for transit." explains the Verizon Post.
Cogent strikes AGAIN!
In all seriousness though, this is definitely troubling for everyone. I'd hate to think that PWE would have to forcibly shut-off the servers for a good chunk of time to change ISPs. Might be time for the FCC to intervene on this one.
Problem is the cost. Cogent is the lowest cost out there, and nothing I repeat nothing anyone says here will convince the company to change. They look at the numbers and see that they are saving money, and tell that to the folks in charge. Doesn't matter if the sales numbers are off or population is down, they are SAVING MONEY.
Actually it does matter but that's a different team and the lag-in-sales will be handled differently, even if there is a direct link between the decline and connection failures.
In other words, corporate schizophrenia.
Maybe it is time for the FCC to get involved and setup rules for "Free-Peering" that every provider must comply with. That way if there are FCC fines that have to be paid to the government, ISP and Bandwidth providers can't hold us, the internet customers, hostage and the "Peering" wars would end.
I don't like more government involvement but in this case, since it has been going on for so long, it looks like it is time for governements to take action.
It's very clear that the ISP's and the Bandwidth Providers are unable to resolve this without intervention by the authorities.
It is creating a imbalance in network traffic, but if you read in-between the lines...
The estimate made in the 4th quarter of last year, was that during 'prime-time' hours, Netflix was taking up over 60% of the total US Internet bandwidth...
This demand is being generated by Verizon subscribers (who are paying for the bandwidth) and smaller Tier ISP services (who are paying for the bandwidth). Estimated costs for a Gateway port is around $10,000, which is peanuts compared to the bandwidth/subscription fees that Verizon collects...
So whats the real issue here??? The growth of Netflix is taking a big bite out of of Cable 'Pay per View' fees, as its well known that Netflix undercuts these prices... This also explains why Verizon refuses to install Netflix Caching servers to reduce the Tier 1 Exchange traffic, as by making Netflix more reliable, would result in a bigger loss in 'Pay per View' revenues... Instead, by trying to get Cogent to pay a 'Service Distribution Fee', Verizon gets to have its thumbs into the growing Netflix revenue stream pie, while it continues to promote its own Verizon streaming media services...
And some Articles from last Summer's Verizon/Cogent issue...
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/06/verizon-bandwidth-provider-blame-each-other-for-slow-netflix-streaming/
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/why-youtube-buffers-the-secret-deals-that-make-and-break-online-video/
NetFlix and Cogent are partners and what Cogent is trying to do is get free long haul services from Verizon and the other carriers to move the traffic to NetFlix, Cryptic, etc..
If Cogent can get free long haul from everyone then it is the one benefiting from the "Free-Peering" with Verizon and the others ISP's.
Level 3 said it best when it terminated the "Free-Peering" in 2005 with Cogent saying that "Level 3 was not in business to subisidze Cogent's business." No business should be expected to do that.
If Cogent wants to have more bandwidth and traffic to NetFlix (their customer) then they need to pay and build more links into the other ISP's. Not the other way around. The other ISP's gain nothing by paying for Cogent's bandwidth and traffic. Simple business policy here that's all.
Cogent wants long haul of thier traffic for free. If Cogent wants to be a backbone of the internet, then they should build it and not expect other ISP's to carry their traffic for free.
Cogent gets paid by NetFlix, Cryptic, etc. and Cogent needs to provide (and pay for) the long haul if they don't want to comply with the "Free-Peering" agreements.
Cogent is the problem here. No one else.
And theirs something else to consider... Cryptic is located in Los Gatos California, while the STO Servers are located in Boston, connecting to the Cogent Boston Hub. This implies that Cryptic/PWE is leasing space in a Cogent Server Farm for the STO servers, so it would take more then a day or two to switch to another provider...
I'd take a one week outage for this in a heartbeat.
I forgot what server lag was, cause honestly, havnt had "any" lag in the other 3 games I have been playing..
and all I get is lag lag lag lag.. checked my connection.. fine.. played all the other games just to make sure.. everything was fine.. (mmo's mind you).. let me guess cryptic, more solar flair issues lol...
then, I said, well ill jump into an azure and get some rommie marks.. two astroids were broken.. TWO.... I mean I figured that would have been fixed as well..
so just like in office space, im gonna ask the dev team, "what exactly would you say you do here?" well besides for ruining star trek.. (honestly, dino pets now.. and ginger bread men, the 12 year olds must be extactic..)..
Netflix alone has used up over 60% of the total bandwidth available for the entire USA at times and Cogent thinks they can shove this kind of traffic over the "Free-Peering" links and ports without paying for that massive traffic on the real Tier1 Backbone/ISP's network.
Old saying applies here... You get what you pay for!
So Cryptic, while it has a great and massive link into their Bandwidth/data Center provider (Cogent) it has a serious bottleneck getting to us from Cogent since Cogent does not want to have the necessary internet Backbone connections to handle the traffic load.
Cogent EXPECTS the real internet Backbone/ISP's carriers to provide it for Free!
Cogent step up to the plate and build the necessary connections at your own cost and stop causing major internet LAG!
PWE/Cryptic You can fix this! Stop using Cogent!