Lol I don't think we're that serious about it yet. We're very laid back as a whole and the topic only came up once a couple of days ago. Suffice it to say we have a long road ahead of us, it will be a while before we're ready.
But thank you for volunteering to help, I will pass along the info to my fleet and see what they think.
deokkent, my fleet is in pretty much the same boat... if you'd like a "sparring" partner, we'd defenitely be game. Heck that goes for anyone... if we have the people online, would be happy to spar against other "green teams"
@johnny111971 if you want to set up a scheduled sparring time
Seconded... So far Ker'rat is practically the only place I've ever been able to pvp in peace, whether I'm on my kdf or fed. Not the best place to learn about teamwork though.
You'd be surprised how well some types of players work together. For example, good KDF BoP pilots can engage in coordinated ambush attacks with minimal communication. All you have to do is decide who attacks first, and then other(s) can follow in later when a gap in the defenses presents itself. Break off if needed, reform, and try again later. That's what made KDF BoPs the scourge of Ker'rat for so long - if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Now that Romulans are in play, the Fed-Roms apparently see no problem with using tactics perfected by KDF BoP pilots, despite whining about them for years :P
Just means I gotta watch my back a little more carefully when decloak-attacking someone in Ker'rat.
I think its the opposite, he has won by recognizing Cryptic pushing past his threshold and deciding that he'd get better entertainment elsewhere. The one that lost was Cryptic, it lost a player, one of a tiny % that has any knowledge of the game.
I dont blame him for going to be honest.
Lets face it, PvP is 'He with most cheese and spam wins' type setup now.
3 typically over powered P2W consoles? Yep get them slotted.
Broken Doffs with skills? Yep slot them puppies.
Half the time its no skill required for a win, just throw out enough cheese to win it for you, or at least make your life really easy.
Not to mention certain members using less than above board methods of winning but get away with it.
That seems less like a testimonal of success and more an admission of failure, to me. His "not quite a team" got destroyed. Clearly he needs to be more organized.
Every single story I've heard of people doing otherwise ends with them being wiped. If that's the bar I'm aiming for, I don't need anything other than my Miranda. It's true, if I'm aiming purely for participation credit, you're right: I don't need all that. In fact, I don't need anything at all. However, that's a pretty low bar to aim for. Given that the Arena format has only one other bar, that leaves victory as the only other objective. It's not like Kerrat, where you've had a good run if you take home a full chest of loot, even if you don't actually kill anyone. In Arena, if you don't win, all of your effort was completely wasted and you may as well have just sat there and done nothing.
Get a few players together, try and get some complimentary builds going, have someone who can call targets - work as team, win some, lose some, improve.
Like I said, if my goal is purely to lose, I don't need to exert any effort for that.
Ugh Hobo, you guys are pure evul tlhlngan with the shenanigans you pulled in kerrat yesterday :P. I still have nightmares, seriously who brings their premades in kerrat:eek:... For shame .
Ugh serena, snb overkill.
Yeah, Ker'rat is fun now more then ever, since arena these days is all about pug stomp or pug stomped, nukara mines and sci premades. I might say, tnx god for Ker'rat! And ill quote TFOmega: "god, I love Ker'rat" I noticed, there are new players I haven't seen before, hows doing pretty well, especially two escort players from some German fleet. They got the point. They stick together and coordinate attacks. Icing on the cake is, of course, exploding mr. Romulan Star Dagger, ^^, who can even find a way to take credits even for his own death, along with Mr. Sal's "evul" reference. That place is unique.
So, maybe a tip, find yourself a wingman, preferably sci escort, Team of Tac and sci escort is perfect combination for that map.
When u see Zelda and me, we are prolly teamed. Also, every 3rd or 4th kdf is wearing HoBo tag, which cannot be accounted as a premade, and they are certainly not premade, not even teamed, i may say. Loose nature of Ker'rat denies every purpose of premade team, so when u see Yoda and his 4-5 sci biatches they arent premade they called a reinforcements I just can't imagine someone is coordinating attacks in Ker'rat via teamspeak.
[10:49] [Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 96581 (43411) Proton(Critical) to Seto.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
If anyone has seen me in Kerrat they will see that 99% of the time i just run straight out of the spawn zone, I am in kerrat to do only one thing... farm. The only time i do stay in the fed ball is when i cant full impulse out of it and im stuck there... so i just hit space bar and start shooting.
Yeah its not a zombie build, its a partial zombie build. The reason that Excelsior is stacked towards being a tank and not the usual excelsior build of being damage is simple. I'm partially blind.
Before LoR when I heard a decloak sound i reacted immediately and this was when the excelsior was running 2x TT and 2x EPTS. Post LoR when i heard a decloak sound half the time it was a rom on the fed side and i had just wasted my buffs. I switched to A2B with the RSP doff for bigger punch while keeping the tank side of the ship.
I now rely on a bop or a rom tractoring me FIRST before i hit off the heals because half the time i cant SEE the damn ship. I've learned to live with my disability when playing games. Most of the folks don't even realize they are attacking a ship whos controller has only 70% vision due to Fuchs Dystrophy. Some players on the KDF side however have probably realized a long time ago that my reaction time is way down from other players and CONTINUOUSLY attack me in kerrat over and over again... and nine times out of ten fail miserably...against a partially sighted player, so your damn right I will call them out for continuously harassing me.. and failing miserably, against a semi blind player.
Moot point anyway, i'll be getting my EC's by other means instead of having to go through the torture of Kerrat every damn day, kerrat farming is as mind numbing as Risa.
This is the whole crux of the subject, its easy for folks like timezarg to call people out without knowing the full truth behind certain aspects of what pisses me off about PVP. My disability has nothing to do with it, that only affects the cloaking enemies and thats the reason i went with a semi tank build on the excelsior, so it can take that hammering for a few seconds while i see if i can find the dang ship on my screen.
What pisses me off about PVP is the UNKILLABLE ships... the jem bugs, which tank better than a lot of oddys ive seen. The Tholian Recluse, which is practically unkillable and is used as a very effective healer. It got to the stage that when i seen a Jem Bug on the opposite side i knew my team was going to lose. Why should I have to put up with that, after paying Cryptic money to get all 3 variants of the Excelsior, after putting in time and effort to make that old ship a heavy tank... only to have some lock box winner come right up behind me and take me down in mere seconds while my own weapons, and the weapons of 2 or 3 other people do absolutely NO DAMAGE at all to it?
Most of the time the pug queues are filled with folks like me. Folks who fly the "standard" federation cruisers and escorts. Its almost always the premades that have a mix of those tholian tanks and jem bugs.. and putting them up against standard cruiser and escorts is no match, no match at all.
Didn't know about your disability, or people intentionally ganking you because of it thats low, sorry for the suprise attack the other day, I probably should have warned you if I knew about that.
I agree one thing that sucks about arena is its pretty much go bugship, Wells, or Recluse or go home, and even worse eng isn't even wanted as healer, sci can do that in the recluse and can be the debuffer in the wells, so its pretty much all sci with only 1 or 2 tac and no room for eng. Its why I prefer Kerrat, and Cap and Hold more, Tacs and Eng can actually be more useful there.
You might enjoy Kerrat more if you gave KDF a try though. I started out in kerrat with my Fed and received my share of ambushes until I decided to finish leveling my KDF alt and got my old heghta bop and had a blast for the first time there.
That seems less like a testimonal of success and more an admission of failure, to me. His "not quite a team" got destroyed. Clearly he needs to be more organized.
Well it's clear you have a defeatist mindset, refuse to try and are deadset on your current course.
I'd wish you luck but since you're not going to PvP anymore, I guess it wouldn't have any meaning.
Yeah, Ker'rat is fun now more then ever, since arena these days is all about pug stomp or pug stomped, nukara mines and sci premades. I might say, tnx god for Ker'rat! And ill quote TFOmega: "god, I love Ker'rat" I noticed, there are new players I haven't seen before, hows doing pretty well, especially two escort players from some German fleet. They got the point. They stick together and coordinate attacks. Icing on the cake is, of course, exploding mr. Romulan Star Dagger, ^^, who can even find a way to take credits even for his own death, along with Mr. Sal's "evul" reference. That place is unique.
So, maybe a tip, find yourself a wingman, preferably sci escort, Team of Tac and sci escort is perfect combination for that map.
When u see Zelda and me, we are prolly teamed. Also, every 3rd or 4th kdf is wearing HoBo tag, which cannot be accounted as a premade, and they are certainly not premade, not even teamed, i may say. Loose nature of Ker'rat denies every purpose of premade team, so when u see Yoda and his 4-5 sci biatches they arent premade they called a reinforcements I just can't imagine someone is coordinating attacks in Ker'rat via teamspeak.
There is quite a bit that Ker'rat has going for itself over other PvP endeavors in the game.
Have wondered from time to time, if something along those lines - wouldn't work its way into the talk about the mix of Competitive PvE and PvP with some fighting over Neutral Zone systems... systems where folks could go, enter the PvP instance or the Fed/KDF PvE instance - fight for rewards, whatever - system changes, contribution based rewards, etc, etc, etc - add something...but that's kind of neither here nor there regarding what I wanted to say mostly in reply...
"So, maybe a tip, find yourself a wingman, preferably sci escort, Team of Tac and sci escort is perfect combination for that map."
Yep, I love to tag along with my Sci Hegh'ta or Sci T'varo with a Tac in a BoP or just a Tac in general. I've mentioned tandems here and there, wondering why folks don't talk about tandems more.
My most memorable (okay, second most - the most was a suicide with the Burning Beachball) death was to a Tac/Sci tandem flying Krenn & Korath. It was an epic death...thus one of the reasons that I consider it my most memorable death. Heck, it's one of the few deaths I remember - it was just that awesome. But yeah, I think tandems are overlooked for a lot of folks. There are some great synergies that can be created between two folks...
Why can't they put in a mechanic where pugging IS pugging - ie - no made up teams
If you Q for a pug it should not allow any pre-made - like someone said: if you want to do a premade match go to the OPvP and set it up.
From now on I will warp out on any pug with a pre-made and i think everyone else should as well intil they change it - these premade rolling pug players is only leading to PvP full demise.
Well it's clear you have a defeatist mindset, refuse to try and are deadset on your current course.
I'd wish you luck but since you're not going to PvP anymore, I guess it wouldn't have any meaning.
Ehhwot? I never said that. I'm still working on it. I'm just saying that the requirements are pretty steep for people who can't afford to spend months or even years working to solve them, and this may sort of limit the audience-base.
Why can't they put in a mechanic where pugging IS pugging - ie - no made up teams
Because this is deeply and fundamentally implausible? I mean, how would this even work? Even if there was no "queue team" option, you'd still get people who are a functional unit thus queuing together at once. There is no technical solution that would stop players from working together in a team environment, and it is unclear why this would necessarily result in a desirable outcome for a team game.
From now on I will warp out on any pug with a pre-made and i think everyone else should as well intil they change it - these premade rolling pug players is only leading to PvP full demise.
Well, the problem is that you're attempting to join a team game...without a team. You're trying to attend a gunfight without a gun. Of course you get rolled. You need a TEAM. One that isn't exactly easy to arrange and train. It's not that PvP is bad: It's that it's very difficult to meet the actual prerequisites needed to succeed.
Well, the problem is that you're attempting to join a team game...without a team.
That's not really the case, though. It's not a case that Joe Pugsly joins the queue by himself and ends up facing a team of five that happened to put their team together beforehand.
Joe Pugsly joins the queue by himself, as does Jane Pugmore, Tony Pugaloni, Basil Pugsworth, and Viktor Puglovski. The queue forms them into a team. They're not joining a team game without a team - they're joining the queue, to have their team formed, to join that team game.
Thus, some would say - the problem is that some people are attempting to get around the system putting them into teams by joining as a team already...
I'm going to quote something Bort said in another thread - which - basically takes it out of context, of course. This was said recently regarding some of pet AI stuff that's going on...
Is it hard to program AI to do this? You betcha. Possibly difficult enough that the time that'd be required just simply isn't available.
But there's also the rabbit hole... The can of worms... the setting of unreasonable expectations, and the question of whether to fulfill them.
And by that I mean this: Say we were to take the time to improve the behavior of a specific pet, like BOP Raiders. What's to say that players will be happy if we stop there?
What about Jem'hadar Attack Ship Pets? Maybe they want better control over their Ramming Speed?
What about Runabouts? Maybe they should use their Tractor Beam more aggressively on faster targets?
What about Ferjai Frigates? Maybe they should only lay mines when their target is very nearby, and has high health (to ensure that the mines will actually hit the intended target)?
The list goes on and on. And the simple truth is that we cannot afford to spend our development budget tuning features like this, when we have design matters to deal with that have a more profound effect on the future life of the game on a whole. We do what we can.
Why am I quoting that? He hasn't said that about this particular topic...but he shouldn't have to say it. He shouldn't have had to say it in the thread he did.
So players want the queues split into PUG/Teams...
"What's to say that players will be happy if we stop there?"
...and yes, that list will go on and on. How much of their development time would they end up spending - being nickel and dimed - dealing with every little change we wanted to the queues, eh?
Yeah, I know it's hypocritical given my current signature - lol - but that doesn't change that they do not have infinite resources, infinite time, infinite money, infinite developers, etc, etc, etc - to deal with those lists of things we bombard them with every day - day in and day out.
Face it, how much of this problem could simply be handled by player attitude, eh?
If certain folks would stop telling the PUG folks that they're doing it wrong - they wouldn't feel the need to defend themselves - those arguments would be avoided. Different people like different things, both sides need to grow up and accept that.
If certain of the Premades would stop patting themselves on the back for pugstomping - then many of the folks losing would take the loss, reflect on the loss, see what they might do better and learn from it...rather than get distracted by arguing.
If certain of the Premades would stop abusing truckloads of what many consider cheese while pugstomping - then again, many of those folks would take the loss and learn from it. That's not a case of saying the Premade should not play to win. They should play to win - but what would they have really won by doing it with all the cheese?
That looks like a lot of finger pointing at the certain folks and certain Premade groups out there - yep, and why not? Without A, there wouldn't have been B...
No doubt, without a doubt in the least - there will still be folks that complain regardless - they will make excuses regardless, etc, etc, etc. 'eff 'em...'eff 'em. Make fun of them - them, specifically - not the group as a whole. Hell, just like what often happens in Ker'rat - folks on the same side of some of the folks whining will jump in and rag them as well.
But with a change in player attitude - at least the community can grow, no? Sure, Cryptic might end up doing everything in their power to destroy it - but at least when everybody gives them the finger, it can be done honestly...
That's the question to ask yourself - do you want it to grow? Or are you just so miserable over everything that's taken place over the years and what continues to happen, that deep down you just want the whole thing to go down in flames? I mean, I can see that... I've been there with other games. Hell, I've been there with this game.
I like Star Trek though. I like starship pew pew. So yeah...I want it to grow.
The option to "join team" means that it is very specifically within the limits of what the system allows.
There is no "getting around the system" going on here.
yeah and the system needs to be changed - so no-one joined in a team can Q for pug matches
the "i want to do it with friends excuse is pure BS - they want to do it so they can roll pug players over for giggles - sorry tat's a BAD system that people are taking advantage of and it is ruining PvP - scaring any new players away.
if you want a pre-made group - get a organized thing going - not a pug.
That's not really the case, though. It's not a case that Joe Pugsly joins the queue by himself and ends up facing a team of five that happened to put their team together beforehand.
Exactly. He's not a team. He's by HIMSELF. He's trying to fight an entire 5-man team alone.
Joe Pugsly joins the queue by himself, as does Jane Pugmore, Tony Pugaloni, Basil Pugsworth, and Viktor Puglovski. The queue forms them into a team.
No, the queue forms them into a disorganized mob. Then they're pitted against an actual team. At no point have these 5 random people ever been a TEAM. They haven't trained together. They don't have ships meant to work together. They're 5 random people pretending to be a team in a team game.
Thus, some would say - the problem is that some people are attempting to get around the system putting them into teams by joining as a team already...
Aside from the fact that I would hardly call pressing an explicitly presented button for that specific purpose "circumventing" anything, the basic problem remains: 5 random people, probably all in PvE boats, are attempting to enter a team environment requiring specific compositions of captain and ship classes, as well as builds meant to work together, that need to practice to function as a unit. Otherwise you are not a team, you are just a rabble, and will end up getting destroyed by an actual team. If you're fine with this, then there's no problem. If you're not fine with this, then clearly, it is necessary to do your homework before you take the test.
More like its like 5 people that paintball on the weekend meet online and go fight a SAS team ... they have a gun alright but they arent going to beat the SAS team.
And sadly for them, a paintball gun is not a real gun.
Thus, some would say - the problem is that some people are attempting to get around the system putting them into teams by joining as a team already...
That's not saying that they're hacking the game, using any sort of exploit, or anything of the sort... I have to give you that system can mean different things, so it could be taken other than intended.
On the topic of how different things might be taken, mind you - have you ever hovered over Challenge?
You get a little popup that reads:
Creates a private match that allows only invited players to join. This option is ideal for a team or fleet that wants to exclusively challenge another team or fleet.
One can easily take that as...it is ideal for teams that want to fight other teams.
Thus, by using join team instead of challenge - then that team is saying that the team is not looking to fight other teams....
...hrmmm, that's not something that I'd go bragging about personally.
edit: Okay, laughing like that was bad form. STO PvP is obviously very serious business to some people and just because I do not share that feeling does not mean that I should laugh so freaking hard at them. My apologies...
"What's to say that players will be happy if we stop there?"
...and yes, that list will go on and on. How much of their development time would they end up spending - being nickel and dimed - dealing with every little change we wanted to the queues, eh?
Finite resources implies they have some resources, and in over 3 years how much has been sent PvP's way?
Besides, that argument is bad. It excuses anything and everything. Of course, if the game would have something new added now and then that felt right and not off from a random tangent, or if they would finally squash some bugs, or if they could spend a few resources making pug only queus.... after 3 years I think the excuse of "finite" resources wore out no?
Creates a private match that allows only invited players to join. This option is ideal for a team or fleet that wants to exclusively challenge another team or fleet.
One can easily take that as...it is ideal for teams that want to fight other teams.
Thus, by using join team instead of challenge - then that team is saying that the team is not looking to fight other teams....
...hrmmm, that's not something that I'd go bragging about personally.
Challenge requires a target. You need to specifically know another team to challenge to a duel. This is convenient in the once-in-a-blue-moon that you can assemble such a thing, but odds are that someone who has actually managed to assemble ONE team is very unlikely to be able to assemble TWO teams, as the difficulty of assembling a game requiring multiple players rises exponentially with the number of participants required. As such, perhaps the team, having assembled itself, is just throwing up its hands and taking whatever else happens to be thrown at it, because, frankly, one should not have to be in charge of organizing your enemies, too. That should be their problem.
For a team big enough that they can have their own backup dancers and thus arrange themselves into their own OpFor, you'd never hear from them because they're doing what you propose: Fighting each other in private.
Even then, they're training FOR something: At some point they'll want to fight something besides each other, since that is what they trained for.
Finite resources implies they have some resources, and in over 3 years how much has been sent PvP's way?
Besides, that argument is bad. It excuses anything and everything. Of course, if the game would have something new added now and then that felt right and not off from a random tangent, or if they would finally squash some bugs, or if they could spend a few resources making pug only queus.... after 3 years I think the excuse of "finite" resources wore out no?
Again, what I quoted there was not in regard to PvP. It was regarding somebody that wanted Pet AI to be able to do strafing runs and figure eights, etc, etc, etc. It's clearly in what I quoted. Again, what I used the quote for was not in regard to PvP in general either - it was in regard to the queues.
Some players want queues split between PUGs and Premades. But then what? Split because of gear level? Then split because of overall experience? Then what? It would go on and on and on...
So realistically - what can be done regarding many of the complaints that come about because of the Premades pugstomping? Much of it would go away if it were simply a case of a change in attitude upon the part of those that are out there pugstomping...
...less cheese.
...less patting themselves on the back for doing it.
...less telling the other folks they suck.
...less etc, etc, etc.
Well, the problem is that you're attempting to join a team game...without a team. You're trying to attend a gunfight without a gun. Of course you get rolled. You need a TEAM. One that isn't exactly easy to arrange and train. It's not that PvP is bad: It's that it's very difficult to meet the actual prerequisites needed to succeed.
And therein lies the problem.
For a casual player, PVP is inaccessible; even more so for those who don't have the benefit of forum or channel awareness to understand what's going on. (I die - a lot - but when I can understand the combo that's doing it, it's easier to just go "meh".)
So what? Well, while the bar is so high, participation will remain low. Which in turn means that Cryptic have little or no incentive to develop PVP rather than another set of rep missions or adventure zone. Hardcore PVPers need to ask themselves whether this is desirable - the tone on these forums is a slightly schitzophrenic one of wanting PVP development while railing against any effort to make it more accessible (Boot Camp and OPVP, while laudable, are treating the symptons rather than the cause).
Challenge requires a target. You need to specifically know another team to challenge to a duel. This is convenient in the once-in-a-blue-moon that you can assemble such a thing, but odds are that someone who has actually managed to assemble ONE team is very unlikely to be able to assemble TWO teams, as the difficulty of assembling a game requiring multiple players rises exponentially with the number of participants required. As such, perhaps the team, having assembled itself, is just throwing up its hands and taking whatever else happens to be thrown at it, because, frankly, one should not have to be in charge of organizing your enemies, too. That should be their problem.
Consider what you're saying here and what's been said.
There's a Premade. There are the "disorganized masses" pretending to be teams. The disorganized masses should form teams. They can hop in OPvP and form a team. It takes five folks to form that opposing team - it's easy enough - they just need to do it. They need to quit whining.
But uh...the Premade can't look for another team - can't organize some folks for them to fight...because it's too hard!
Really? All they need to do is what they've told other folks to do... and being that they're already used to organizing, it should be even easier for them to get other folks organized.
I mean, it's that simple - that's the main problem that I see with certain members of the Premade crowd. It's not the entire crowd - not by a long shot.
There are the folks that will ask in OPvP if there are other Premades out there. They'll /friend folks that run Premades - make note of the fleets out there - make contacts - ask around. If there's not, they might ask if anybody wants to form a Pugmade for some "sparring" or a match against them. They try to make use of the tools available to them to try to get at least a decent match.
Just like folks will see there's a bunch of folks talking and ask if anybody wants to set up a 10v10 - they'll organize that...which includes organizing their enemies, eh?
There's those kind of folks...
...and then there's those that just hit the queues for some pugstomping, while blaming the pugs for not being more organized.
You can't tell them that they need to use the tools available to them while not using them yourself...it's beyond hypocritcal.
For a casual player, PVP is inaccessible; even more so for those who don't have the benefit of forum or channel awareness to understand what's going on. (I die - a lot - but when I can understand the combo that's doing it, it's easier to just go "meh".)
So what? Well, while the bar is so high, participation will remain low. Which in turn means that Cryptic have little or no incentive to develop PVP rather than another set of rep missions or adventure zone. Hardcore PVPers need to ask themselves whether this is desirable - the tone on these forums is a slightly schitzophrenic one of wanting PVP development while railing against any effort to make it more accessible (Boot Camp and OPVP, while laudable, are treating the symptons rather than the cause).
It's pretty much this - and - honestly, I think the actual hardcore PvP folks have taken that higher road. They're trying to avoid pugstomping as much as possible, they're trying to coach folks when they can, they're getting involved with things like Boot Camp - etc, etc, etc. They're trying to grow the community because they know they need to grow the community for Cryptic to see the potential of getting any sort of return on the investment...
...then there's the other folks that don't care what happens or don't think about what will happen, they just want to play with four friends - joyfully oblivious in their elitism, one day they'll be the only five folks playing and they'll have no idea where everybody went - and - it obviously won't have been their fault.
Creates a private match that allows only invited players to join. This option is ideal for a team or fleet that wants to exclusively challenge another team or fleet.
One can easily take that as...it is ideal for teams that want to fight other teams.
Thus, by using join team instead of challenge - then that team is saying that the team is not looking to fight other teams....
...hrmmm, that's not something that I'd go bragging about personally.
I'm not sure what you're going on about here. Obviously a challenge match is ideal for a team that wants to fight another team since it is the only way to do pre-arranged matches. But it's only useful when you have 2 full teams that want to fight. You can't just make a challenge match without someone to fight and then magically another team shows up. So when you can't get a pre-arranged match you join the queue since that's the only other way to pvp with your friends/team. It's pretty simple.
Again, what I quoted there was not in regard to PvP. It was regarding somebody that wanted Pet AI to be able to do strafing runs and figure eights, etc, etc, etc. It's clearly in what I quoted. Again, what I used the quote for was not in regard to PvP in general either - it was in regard to the queues.
Some players want queues split between PUGs and Premades. But then what? Split because of gear level? Then split because of overall experience? Then what? It would go on and on and on...
So realistically - what can be done regarding many of the complaints that come about because of the Premades pugstomping? Much of it would go away if it were simply a case of a change in attitude upon the part of those that are out there pugstomping...
...less cheese.
...less patting themselves on the back for doing it.
...less telling the other folks they suck.
...less etc, etc, etc.
That is all true, but in the end, I feel Cryptic uses that excuse to never put any effort into anything. I can't recall the last thing that was launched that wasn't bugged. Their latest cash cow, the scimitar can't buy its special Dil combat pet, neither can anyone buy any pets that require a specific ship.
At some point we have to say that their best is just shoddy and even kind of pathetic.
That any employee in any company would say that they can't put effort into something because they fear customers may not be satisfied and ask for more is just crazy. Even if that's the real reason you NEVER say something like that. I think Bort was saying more than he should because he lacks experience in certain professional settings, I've made my own share of mistakes in similar situations so I can understand saying something and regretting it later.
But sheesh, I really, REALLY hope the reason they put so little effort into finishing things is that they just don't care and are lazy, at least that would make sense, and not out of some silly fear of unhappy players. Newsflash Cryptic, the players are already unhappy!
Comments
I dunno.... Imagine having to try to kill the same person 15 times in a row to get credit for a match.
What if you're both super tanks? No deaths there.
Do you even Science Bro?
What if the other guy your facing is better than you? Will still have folks creating threads complaining...
deokkent, my fleet is in pretty much the same boat... if you'd like a "sparring" partner, we'd defenitely be game. Heck that goes for anyone... if we have the people online, would be happy to spar against other "green teams"
@johnny111971 if you want to set up a scheduled sparring time
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
You'd be surprised how well some types of players work together. For example, good KDF BoP pilots can engage in coordinated ambush attacks with minimal communication. All you have to do is decide who attacks first, and then other(s) can follow in later when a gap in the defenses presents itself. Break off if needed, reform, and try again later. That's what made KDF BoPs the scourge of Ker'rat for so long - if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Now that Romulans are in play, the Fed-Roms apparently see no problem with using tactics perfected by KDF BoP pilots, despite whining about them for years :P
Just means I gotta watch my back a little more carefully when decloak-attacking someone in Ker'rat.
I think its the opposite, he has won by recognizing Cryptic pushing past his threshold and deciding that he'd get better entertainment elsewhere. The one that lost was Cryptic, it lost a player, one of a tiny % that has any knowledge of the game.
Lets face it, PvP is 'He with most cheese and spam wins' type setup now.
3 typically over powered P2W consoles? Yep get them slotted.
Broken Doffs with skills? Yep slot them puppies.
Half the time its no skill required for a win, just throw out enough cheese to win it for you, or at least make your life really easy.
Not to mention certain members using less than above board methods of winning but get away with it.
Every single story I've heard of people doing otherwise ends with them being wiped. If that's the bar I'm aiming for, I don't need anything other than my Miranda. It's true, if I'm aiming purely for participation credit, you're right: I don't need all that. In fact, I don't need anything at all. However, that's a pretty low bar to aim for. Given that the Arena format has only one other bar, that leaves victory as the only other objective. It's not like Kerrat, where you've had a good run if you take home a full chest of loot, even if you don't actually kill anyone. In Arena, if you don't win, all of your effort was completely wasted and you may as well have just sat there and done nothing.
Like I said, if my goal is purely to lose, I don't need to exert any effort for that.
Yeah, Ker'rat is fun now more then ever, since arena these days is all about pug stomp or pug stomped, nukara mines and sci premades. I might say, tnx god for Ker'rat! And ill quote TFOmega: "god, I love Ker'rat" I noticed, there are new players I haven't seen before, hows doing pretty well, especially two escort players from some German fleet. They got the point. They stick together and coordinate attacks. Icing on the cake is, of course, exploding mr. Romulan Star Dagger, ^^, who can even find a way to take credits even for his own death, along with Mr. Sal's "evul" reference. That place is unique.
So, maybe a tip, find yourself a wingman, preferably sci escort, Team of Tac and sci escort is perfect combination for that map.
When u see Zelda and me, we are prolly teamed. Also, every 3rd or 4th kdf is wearing HoBo tag, which cannot be accounted as a premade, and they are certainly not premade, not even teamed, i may say. Loose nature of Ker'rat denies every purpose of premade team, so when u see Yoda and his 4-5 sci biatches they arent premade they called a reinforcements
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Didn't know about your disability, or people intentionally ganking you because of it thats low, sorry for the suprise attack the other day, I probably should have warned you if I knew about that.
I agree one thing that sucks about arena is its pretty much go bugship, Wells, or Recluse or go home, and even worse eng isn't even wanted as healer, sci can do that in the recluse and can be the debuffer in the wells, so its pretty much all sci with only 1 or 2 tac and no room for eng. Its why I prefer Kerrat, and Cap and Hold more, Tacs and Eng can actually be more useful there.
You might enjoy Kerrat more if you gave KDF a try though. I started out in kerrat with my Fed and received my share of ambushes until I decided to finish leveling my KDF alt and got my old heghta bop and had a blast for the first time there.
Well it's clear you have a defeatist mindset, refuse to try and are deadset on your current course.
I'd wish you luck but since you're not going to PvP anymore, I guess it wouldn't have any meaning.
There is quite a bit that Ker'rat has going for itself over other PvP endeavors in the game.
Have wondered from time to time, if something along those lines - wouldn't work its way into the talk about the mix of Competitive PvE and PvP with some fighting over Neutral Zone systems... systems where folks could go, enter the PvP instance or the Fed/KDF PvE instance - fight for rewards, whatever - system changes, contribution based rewards, etc, etc, etc - add something...but that's kind of neither here nor there regarding what I wanted to say mostly in reply...
"So, maybe a tip, find yourself a wingman, preferably sci escort, Team of Tac and sci escort is perfect combination for that map."
Yep, I love to tag along with my Sci Hegh'ta or Sci T'varo with a Tac in a BoP or just a Tac in general. I've mentioned tandems here and there, wondering why folks don't talk about tandems more.
My most memorable (okay, second most - the most was a suicide with the Burning Beachball) death was to a Tac/Sci tandem flying Krenn & Korath. It was an epic death...thus one of the reasons that I consider it my most memorable death. Heck, it's one of the few deaths I remember - it was just that awesome. But yeah, I think tandems are overlooked for a lot of folks. There are some great synergies that can be created between two folks...
If you Q for a pug it should not allow any pre-made - like someone said: if you want to do a premade match go to the OPvP and set it up.
From now on I will warp out on any pug with a pre-made and i think everyone else should as well intil they change it - these premade rolling pug players is only leading to PvP full demise.
Well, the problem is that you're attempting to join a team game...without a team. You're trying to attend a gunfight without a gun. Of course you get rolled. You need a TEAM. One that isn't exactly easy to arrange and train. It's not that PvP is bad: It's that it's very difficult to meet the actual prerequisites needed to succeed.
That's not really the case, though. It's not a case that Joe Pugsly joins the queue by himself and ends up facing a team of five that happened to put their team together beforehand.
Joe Pugsly joins the queue by himself, as does Jane Pugmore, Tony Pugaloni, Basil Pugsworth, and Viktor Puglovski. The queue forms them into a team. They're not joining a team game without a team - they're joining the queue, to have their team formed, to join that team game.
Thus, some would say - the problem is that some people are attempting to get around the system putting them into teams by joining as a team already...
The option to "join team" means that it is very specifically within the limits of what the system allows.
There is no "getting around the system" going on here.
Why am I quoting that? He hasn't said that about this particular topic...but he shouldn't have to say it. He shouldn't have had to say it in the thread he did.
So players want the queues split into PUG/Teams...
"What's to say that players will be happy if we stop there?"
...and yes, that list will go on and on. How much of their development time would they end up spending - being nickel and dimed - dealing with every little change we wanted to the queues, eh?
Yeah, I know it's hypocritical given my current signature - lol - but that doesn't change that they do not have infinite resources, infinite time, infinite money, infinite developers, etc, etc, etc - to deal with those lists of things we bombard them with every day - day in and day out.
Face it, how much of this problem could simply be handled by player attitude, eh?
If certain folks would stop telling the PUG folks that they're doing it wrong - they wouldn't feel the need to defend themselves - those arguments would be avoided. Different people like different things, both sides need to grow up and accept that.
If certain of the Premades would stop patting themselves on the back for pugstomping - then many of the folks losing would take the loss, reflect on the loss, see what they might do better and learn from it...rather than get distracted by arguing.
If certain of the Premades would stop abusing truckloads of what many consider cheese while pugstomping - then again, many of those folks would take the loss and learn from it. That's not a case of saying the Premade should not play to win. They should play to win - but what would they have really won by doing it with all the cheese?
That looks like a lot of finger pointing at the certain folks and certain Premade groups out there - yep, and why not? Without A, there wouldn't have been B...
No doubt, without a doubt in the least - there will still be folks that complain regardless - they will make excuses regardless, etc, etc, etc. 'eff 'em...'eff 'em. Make fun of them - them, specifically - not the group as a whole. Hell, just like what often happens in Ker'rat - folks on the same side of some of the folks whining will jump in and rag them as well.
But with a change in player attitude - at least the community can grow, no? Sure, Cryptic might end up doing everything in their power to destroy it - but at least when everybody gives them the finger, it can be done honestly...
That's the question to ask yourself - do you want it to grow? Or are you just so miserable over everything that's taken place over the years and what continues to happen, that deep down you just want the whole thing to go down in flames? I mean, I can see that... I've been there with other games. Hell, I've been there with this game.
I like Star Trek though. I like starship pew pew. So yeah...I want it to grow.
yeah and the system needs to be changed - so no-one joined in a team can Q for pug matches
the "i want to do it with friends excuse is pure BS - they want to do it so they can roll pug players over for giggles - sorry tat's a BAD system that people are taking advantage of and it is ruining PvP - scaring any new players away.
if you want a pre-made group - get a organized thing going - not a pug.
This is one thing Cryptic needs to change ASAP
No, the queue forms them into a disorganized mob. Then they're pitted against an actual team. At no point have these 5 random people ever been a TEAM. They haven't trained together. They don't have ships meant to work together. They're 5 random people pretending to be a team in a team game.
Aside from the fact that I would hardly call pressing an explicitly presented button for that specific purpose "circumventing" anything, the basic problem remains: 5 random people, probably all in PvE boats, are attempting to enter a team environment requiring specific compositions of captain and ship classes, as well as builds meant to work together, that need to practice to function as a unit. Otherwise you are not a team, you are just a rabble, and will end up getting destroyed by an actual team. If you're fine with this, then there's no problem. If you're not fine with this, then clearly, it is necessary to do your homework before you take the test.
And sadly for them, a paintball gun is not a real gun.
No to be blunt or anything...um, but yeah - without an option to "join team"...they couldn't join as a team.
That's not saying that they're hacking the game, using any sort of exploit, or anything of the sort... I have to give you that system can mean different things, so it could be taken other than intended.
On the topic of how different things might be taken, mind you - have you ever hovered over Challenge?
You get a little popup that reads:
Creates a private match that allows only invited players to join. This option is ideal for a team or fleet that wants to exclusively challenge another team or fleet.
One can easily take that as...it is ideal for teams that want to fight other teams.
Thus, by using join team instead of challenge - then that team is saying that the team is not looking to fight other teams....
...hrmmm, that's not something that I'd go bragging about personally.
Finite resources implies they have some resources, and in over 3 years how much has been sent PvP's way?
Besides, that argument is bad. It excuses anything and everything. Of course, if the game would have something new added now and then that felt right and not off from a random tangent, or if they would finally squash some bugs, or if they could spend a few resources making pug only queus.... after 3 years I think the excuse of "finite" resources wore out no?
For a team big enough that they can have their own backup dancers and thus arrange themselves into their own OpFor, you'd never hear from them because they're doing what you propose: Fighting each other in private.
Even then, they're training FOR something: At some point they'll want to fight something besides each other, since that is what they trained for.
Again, what I quoted there was not in regard to PvP. It was regarding somebody that wanted Pet AI to be able to do strafing runs and figure eights, etc, etc, etc. It's clearly in what I quoted. Again, what I used the quote for was not in regard to PvP in general either - it was in regard to the queues.
Some players want queues split between PUGs and Premades. But then what? Split because of gear level? Then split because of overall experience? Then what? It would go on and on and on...
So realistically - what can be done regarding many of the complaints that come about because of the Premades pugstomping? Much of it would go away if it were simply a case of a change in attitude upon the part of those that are out there pugstomping...
...less cheese.
...less patting themselves on the back for doing it.
...less telling the other folks they suck.
...less etc, etc, etc.
And therein lies the problem.
For a casual player, PVP is inaccessible; even more so for those who don't have the benefit of forum or channel awareness to understand what's going on. (I die - a lot - but when I can understand the combo that's doing it, it's easier to just go "meh".)
So what? Well, while the bar is so high, participation will remain low. Which in turn means that Cryptic have little or no incentive to develop PVP rather than another set of rep missions or adventure zone. Hardcore PVPers need to ask themselves whether this is desirable - the tone on these forums is a slightly schitzophrenic one of wanting PVP development while railing against any effort to make it more accessible (Boot Camp and OPVP, while laudable, are treating the symptons rather than the cause).
Consider what you're saying here and what's been said.
There's a Premade. There are the "disorganized masses" pretending to be teams. The disorganized masses should form teams. They can hop in OPvP and form a team. It takes five folks to form that opposing team - it's easy enough - they just need to do it. They need to quit whining.
But uh...the Premade can't look for another team - can't organize some folks for them to fight...because it's too hard!
Really? All they need to do is what they've told other folks to do... and being that they're already used to organizing, it should be even easier for them to get other folks organized.
I mean, it's that simple - that's the main problem that I see with certain members of the Premade crowd. It's not the entire crowd - not by a long shot.
There are the folks that will ask in OPvP if there are other Premades out there. They'll /friend folks that run Premades - make note of the fleets out there - make contacts - ask around. If there's not, they might ask if anybody wants to form a Pugmade for some "sparring" or a match against them. They try to make use of the tools available to them to try to get at least a decent match.
Just like folks will see there's a bunch of folks talking and ask if anybody wants to set up a 10v10 - they'll organize that...which includes organizing their enemies, eh?
There's those kind of folks...
...and then there's those that just hit the queues for some pugstomping, while blaming the pugs for not being more organized.
You can't tell them that they need to use the tools available to them while not using them yourself...it's beyond hypocritcal.
It's pretty much this - and - honestly, I think the actual hardcore PvP folks have taken that higher road. They're trying to avoid pugstomping as much as possible, they're trying to coach folks when they can, they're getting involved with things like Boot Camp - etc, etc, etc. They're trying to grow the community because they know they need to grow the community for Cryptic to see the potential of getting any sort of return on the investment...
...then there's the other folks that don't care what happens or don't think about what will happen, they just want to play with four friends - joyfully oblivious in their elitism, one day they'll be the only five folks playing and they'll have no idea where everybody went - and - it obviously won't have been their fault.
I'm not sure what you're going on about here. Obviously a challenge match is ideal for a team that wants to fight another team since it is the only way to do pre-arranged matches. But it's only useful when you have 2 full teams that want to fight. You can't just make a challenge match without someone to fight and then magically another team shows up. So when you can't get a pre-arranged match you join the queue since that's the only other way to pvp with your friends/team. It's pretty simple.
@DevolvedOne
That is all true, but in the end, I feel Cryptic uses that excuse to never put any effort into anything. I can't recall the last thing that was launched that wasn't bugged. Their latest cash cow, the scimitar can't buy its special Dil combat pet, neither can anyone buy any pets that require a specific ship.
At some point we have to say that their best is just shoddy and even kind of pathetic.
That any employee in any company would say that they can't put effort into something because they fear customers may not be satisfied and ask for more is just crazy. Even if that's the real reason you NEVER say something like that. I think Bort was saying more than he should because he lacks experience in certain professional settings, I've made my own share of mistakes in similar situations so I can understand saying something and regretting it later.
But sheesh, I really, REALLY hope the reason they put so little effort into finishing things is that they just don't care and are lazy, at least that would make sense, and not out of some silly fear of unhappy players. Newsflash Cryptic, the players are already unhappy!