I just hate how the queues work. If I want to pug with a healing cruiser...somehow the queue sets me up with an all healing team..and if I'm on my tacscort, the queue sets me up with an all tacscort team. It does that all the freaking time.
I had to laugh...heh, not at you - but just thinking about some of the matches I've been dropped in where it was pretty much 4-5 healers on one side and 0 healers on the other. Which made me think about how Ker'rat would usually play out...2-3 KDF massively outnumbered in one zone with 2-3 Feds massively outnumbered in another zone.
Roll a new toon to start PVP. It's much easier to learn when there's less going on, and you're not likely to be so drastically outgunned by seasoned veterans. It's a more level playing field most of the time.
Say they merge the queues and split the queues...fixed, right? Like I said, nope.
...on teamspeak/whatever voice server...
"Okay, guys...3...2...1...queue!"
I used to be in a COD clan that focused on Sabotage, and we had the most popular Sabotage server in the queues. We saw this kind of TRIBBLE a *LOT* even with the forced-balance queueing that COD uses. They would wait until the opposing side had a new member then jump in, or some of the really lame clans would join the enemy team with alts to force a slot open on their team then disconnect the alts. Some people really get ego-stroked by rolling groups of random newbs, and I mean they *REALLY* get a buzz from it.
It really got on my nerves there. I would tell them to go do that TRIBBLE on their own server and they would say (1) they did do it on their own server but nobody played there (go figure), or (2) they didnt see a need to pay for a server when they could do it on ours. Internet gaming yo. We did a lot of banning
In its current state, the uber premades are just too strong from the casual players who like to drop in now and then. Don't get me wrong, the uber premades have put a lot of time and effort in and I'm not attacking or slandering them in any way, it's just that playing against them is no fun when you know your team will be spanked 15-0.
In order to grow PvP, casual players need to be brought in. I really believe that it's the prospect of fighting the uber premades that keeps them out. How to fix this?
I know people will disagree, but PvP needs a ranking system. The game needs to rank people in various areas (NOT just DPS) and then form groups out of players with similar rankings. If a premade goes in to the queue the system will look for players with the skill to take them on.
Some people will say that there aren't enough players to support this. I don't agree.
At first there will be no difference as the game will need to take quite a few games to accurately rank people. When the system slowly starts to match people, they will find that the games they're playing are more fun. People having fun usually attracts other people who want to have fun. The matches will be closer and more people will be attracted to it. Still, it's only an idea.
Merge the queues (FvF, KvK, FvK -> RvB), split the queues (PUG, Teams).
I don't know about merging queues, but how about splitting them into Normal and Elite, just like STFs/Fleet Actions?
That way premades with OP builds can queue in Elite and always find their match, and the more casual player can join Normal matches without the fear of getting constantly rolled by unbeatable teams. I think this would somehow even the odds between the two groups.
Of course I understand that that wouldn't prevent some elite premades from joining Normal matches for the sole purpose of griefing newbies. Nevertheless, I would dare to hope that most dedicated pvp players with godly builds are more interested in entering challenging matches against their own peers.
I don't know about merging queues, but how about splitting them into Normal and Elite, just like STFs/Fleet Actions?
That way premades with OP builds can queue in Elite and always find their match, and the more casual player can join Normal matches without the fear of getting constantly rolled by unbeatable teams. I think this would somehow even the odds between the two groups.
Of course I understand that that wouldn't prevent some elite premades from joining Normal matches for the sole purpose of griefing newbies. Nevertheless, I would dare to hope that most dedicated pvp players with godly builds are more interested in entering challenging matches against their own peers.
Just an idea.
Cheers.
I mentioned it in another thread discussing merging queues vs. not, etc, etc, etc.
Have to keep in mind how many actual queues there are...
FvF Ground Arena
FvF Ground Assault
FvF Space Arena
FvF Space Capture & Hold
FvK Ground Arena
FvK Ground Assault
FvK Space Arena
FvK Space Capture & Hold
KvK Ground Arena
KvK Ground Assault
KvK Space Arena
KvK Space Capture & Hold
Yep, there's 12 queues.
If you split Normal/Elite, then you'll have 24 queues.
If you merge first, so you've got...
RvB Ground Arena
RvB Ground Assault
RvB Space Arena
RvB Space Capture & Hold
...4 queues; then splitting Normal/Elite would give you 8 queues.
It's along the lines of if they were to add another game type, with the current system - it would add 6 queues taking it to 18 - then if it were split, it would be 36 queues. If they were merged, a new game type would add 2 queues for 6 queues and splitting would still only mean 12 queues.
PvP is for people with dedication, and it is good.
I played 3 top MMO since 2004, and each of them had same thing; gear, skill and timings.
Study numbers, learn mechanics, perfect your build, get gear. It is about learning and execution.
PvP is fun for people who puts time and effort in perfection to kill another people and it feels good.
IMHO pvp should be like this, its not a fairytale for casuals, it is dark and cruel place where humans kill humans.
PvPers have fun in it, i had a lot of laughts when i havent properly executed my attack or enemy failed to do same or i got locked to death because of my stupidity to stay longer than i had to, when few guys hunt each other and have a good time "smack talking" or when i got a kill and then destroyed but i got"that guy" or wining against all odds or heroic 15-14 win or lose 13-15, that feel is priceless.
It is all not serious, it is all fun but requires dedication.
p.s. if STO had Open PvP where you can ambush in sector space, capital world invasions and sector control... well STO of my dreams. Chaos is a ladder!
Sounds like BSGO. There was suppose to be a game like that called Star Trek: infinite space. It was also to be a Unity platform game just like BSGO and %100 PVP. Gameforge was to develop it but could not find a partner company. I think this games PVP would be much more developed had that game been launched. Many Star Trek fans that also love die hard PVP with base and sector control and open system PVP would gravitate away from this game and toward it. That would force Cryptic and PWE to re-think thier PVP platform to keep that playerbase happy. A second Star Trek mulitplayer game would be a good thing for STO as nothing improves customer service and quality control than competition.
I really did. Then the folks who came back to the game via LoR who used to pvp have decided to stop pvp'ing because its nothing more than a massive bad joke.
Just had TEN arena matches in a row... TEN. The pugs i was in faced off against teams with healers, teams with bug ships, teams with healers AND bug ships. All the way through those ten matches about half of the folks said that was their last pvp match, as far as they are concerned cryptic can remove pvp entirely.
...and now im one of them. There is no point to joining those arena queues anymore. No point at all. The fresh blood which came in with LoR has mostly been scared away with premades, instawin lockbox ships and spam.
Ohhhhh...and please spare me the rhetoric of "well folks should make their own premades with friends!" or "folks should join the opvp channel"
Most of the folks in those pug matches i came across was fleetless casual players which is this games LIFE BLOOD. Scare of that type of gamer from PVP and you'll kill off any chance of new folks getting into the arenas.
As for the OPVP channel... yeah join it, ya get good build tips there at least.
Well done premades, p2w console and lockbox kiddies, way to go to start the process of driving that final big effing nail into the coffin on PVP. I played my last arena/cnh match today, im never going back in.
Cryptic, just remove pvp and get it over with.
This is the attitude that unfortunately not lets you live long in the world of PvP, causes are debatable, but the former is truth.
Sorry to hear another guy leaving PvP, i dont think all is to blame on cryptic though as much as we like to. Sometimes its attitude that wins over cheese.
Sorry to hear another guy leaving PvP, i dont think all is to blame on cryptic though as much as we like to. Sometimes its attitude that wins over cheese.
Sometimes though, mind you, it's the attitude accompanying a win accompanied by cheese that's the biggest issue for some folks.
Some folks can have fun, whether they win or lose...but sometimes the winning team can even take that away from the folks that otherwise have fun either way.
So yeah, while there is a great deal that many of us would lay the blame on Cryptic...there's no doubt that player actions play a large part in it as well.
The manner in which that Premade/PUGmade conducts themselves, both during and after the match plays a role in it. If they abuse the stuff folks blame Cryptic for while patting themselves on the back for lobbing a grenade into a barrel of fish...it's going to be what it is - folks complaining that much more and that many more folks walking away.
i think people far to often mistake a premade for 1 guy pug healing well, and maybe 1 good escort. often thats all it takes to utterly dominate a group of noobs.
instead of makeing i quit threads, when i see the ques clogged with organized players, i find or creat a team myself. i know anyone on opvp cn be relied on.
I think it boils down to this: When Pugging Arena and C & H if you get 2 random teams where there is one person calling targets it's fun and competitive. But Premade vs Pug makes people frustrated and angry. Solve that and we have happy people. Also the deticated Tems would have more fun vs each other as well. Especally if there was a leaderboard. The competition vs Fleet would be great. Cryptic could have banners for the starbases or special uniform unlocks for the #1 premade in the game. Just call it Tournament Arena and only named 5 man teams can enter.
Also the deticated Tems would have more fun vs each other as well.
That's not necessarily true. Some teams are just mediocre and can only beat random groups of uncoordinated noobs, and some of them have to rely on cheese builds to even do that. Competing against other teams in organized competition with rules is no fun for those guys, they wont do it.
Internet gaming, you have to base your assumptions on everybody being a hack/tard/moron, and then enjoy the times that they arent. Its just the nature of the beast.
If you split Normal/Elite, then you'll have 24 queues.
If you merge first, so you've got...
RvB Ground Arena
RvB Ground Assault
RvB Space Arena
RvB Space Capture & Hold
...4 queues; then splitting Normal/Elite would give you 8 queues.
It's along the lines of if they were to add another game type, with the current system - it would add 6 queues taking it to 18 - then if it were split, it would be 36 queues. If they were merged, a new game type would add 2 queues for 6 queues and splitting would still only mean 12 queues.
What does RvB stand for? Red vs Blue, I presume? If so, this actually makes very good sense. That would definitely shorten the queue wait time as well.
OTOH, though, it would kill faction-specific teaming and matching, wouldn't it? Even though I really don't care much for which faction I'm matched against, I understand if some players will object to merged queues because zomg! they love pwning {$faction}.
Anyway, I'm all for merging now. Merging and splitting queues into Elite/Normal, that is.
Lol you say that because you don't want your premading hard work to be invalidated. Totally understandable position. Although, I have to ask if you want to become that team that most puggers see as a quick way to dilithium. They just give up when they face you, so the alternative is to factor you in their grind routine. Shields off, exposure to your firepower with 0 defense bonus or better yet take the high road and leave the instance. I'm not even making this up, when I pug in KvF, my feddie teammates usually just throw their arms in the air when they see HOBO for instance. It can get pathetic at times lol. I'm sure you've experienced this in some form or another unless your team doesn't go in public queues.
This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to PvP, and especially if you want to get better at PvP and actually be able to compete against these evil premades. I started at the same spot as everyone else, not having a clue as to what I was doing and no friends to PvP with. I was in a PvE fleet when I first started to PvP, but they could not help me and did not want to team with me, so I left in search of a PvP fleet. I then hopped around to a couple different fleets until I found one where I actually fit into a team, but the whole while I was learning how to play pvp from as many different sources as I could (i.e. forums, the pvp fleets I joined, OPvP, and asked questions to players that bested me and added them to my friend's list). I ended up getting a friend's list together that has some of the best PvP'ers in the game, although I didn't know it at the time.
Nowadays, I challenge these same players, fleets, and teams that helped me learn to pvp to 5v5 premade vs. premade matches. I may not always win, but I would rather try to beat the best team in STO and lose, then just throw my arms up and say there's no way I could ever beat these guys. Win or lose, every game is a learning experience. If my team loses to a certain strategy the other team brings to the table, we will discuss what went wrong on our side, and how we can better defend against what they did. The next time we play them, things may turn out differently.
You ask if I've experienced going up against a good team in the queues? Of course. And I relish it. It brings a smile to my face every time my team comes across another premade, especially if they are known to be a good team. I'm not the best player in STO, but there is not a single team in this game that I will shy away from, and in fact, I actively seek out top teams to play against on a regular basis.
Ultimately though, pugging is better and if you enjoy it, it builds character (at least for me). It is a lot of fun breaking premades formation. It's my playstyle, although I won't go as far to claim I've had many successful results lmao :P, lots of room for improvement.
There is nothing wrong with pugging, per se, but in the end it does limit what you can accomplish in PvP. I enjoyed pugging for a long time, and still do from time to time, but there is only so much you can do, and it is quite rare that you can actually get a pug team that can compete against a well organized premade. The fact of the matter is that you never know who you're going to be teamed with so you have to build your ship in a way that you can survive without support.
Once you start getting a team together new possibilities open up. You know what your team-mates will be running and they know what you're running. At this point you're not just building your ship-- you're building synergy. There are countless options as to what build you can run on a team as long as everything is coordinated as compared to a middle-of-the-road build that you are forced into for pug matches.
If you're playing pug pvp's you've taken your first step. If you're here on the forums discussing PvP, that's another step. Now that you've taken your first couple steps, you shouldn't be afraid of walking so go ahead and take that next step, which is forming pugmades from your friend's list and OPvP. One step leads to the next, and before you know it, you will be running with a premade of your own.
What does RvB stand for? Red vs Blue, I presume? If so, this actually makes very good sense. That would definitely shorten the queue wait time as well.
OTOH, though, it would kill faction-specific teaming and matching, wouldn't it? Even though I really don't care much for which faction I'm matched against, I understand if some players will object to merged queues because zomg! they love pwning {$faction}.
Anyway, I'm all for merging now. Merging and splitting queues into Elite/Normal, that is.
Cheers.
Yeah, the RvB thing kind of stuck with me after Geko used it for one of the reasons that the Romulans were not a "separate and distinct" faction - wanting to maintain the RvB nature of things. Which sure enough, whether it's FvF, FvK, or KvK...one team is Red and one team is Blue.
As for the faction-specific teaming angle...
FvF...includes Feds and Fed-aligned Roms.
KvK...includes KDF and KDF-aligned Roms.
FvK...includes Feds, KDF, Fed-aligned Roms, and KDF-aligned Roms.
There's been talk of adding additional "factions" down the road - Cardassians, Liberated Borg, etc, etc.
FvK will eventually be Feds, KDF, Fed-aligned Roms, KDF-aligned Roms, Fed-aligned Cardassians, KDF-aligned Cardassians, Fed-aligned Borg, KDF-aligned Borg, Fed-aligned Pakled, KDF-aligned Pakled...etc, etc, etc. Okay, maybe the Pakleds won't get their own faction, lol...
...but FvK is already no longer FvK. FvF is already no longer FvF as KvK is already no longer KvK.
Cryptic already killed that.
If somebody wants an actual FvF match, FvK match, or KvK match - they're going to have to round up the folks and do a private match to get it.
This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to PvP, and especially if you want to get better at PvP and actually be able to compete against these evil premades. I started at the same spot as everyone else, not having a clue as to what I was doing and no friends to PvP with. I was in a PvE fleet when I first started to PvP, but they could not help me and did not want to team with me, so I left in search of a PvP fleet. I then hopped around to a couple different fleets until I found one where I actually fit into a team, but the whole while I was learning how to play pvp from as many different sources as I could (i.e. forums, the pvp fleets I joined, OPvP, and asked questions to players that bested me and added them to my friend's list). I ended up getting a friend's list together that has some of the best PvP'ers in the game, although I didn't know it at the time.
Nowadays, I challenge these same players, fleets, and teams that helped me learn to pvp to 5v5 premade vs. premade matches. I may not always win, but I would rather try to beat the best team in STO and lose, then just throw my arms up and say there's no way I could ever beat these guys. Win or lose, every game is a learning experience. If my team loses to a certain strategy the other team brings to the table, we will discuss what went wrong on our side, and how we can better defend against what they did. The next time we play them, things may turn out differently.
You ask if I've experienced going up a good team in the queues? Of course. And I relish it. It brings a smile to my face every time my team comes across another premade, especially if they are known to be a good team. I'm not the best player in STO, but there is not a single team in this game that I will shy away from, and in fact, I actively seek out top teams to play against on a regular basis.
There is nothing wrong with pugging per se, but in the end it does limit what you can accomplish in PvP. I enjoyed pugging for a long time, and still do from time to time, but there is only so much you can do, and it is quite rare that you can actually get a pug team that can compete against a well organized premade. The fact of the matter is that you never know who you're going to be teamed with so you have to build your ship in a way that you can survive without support.
Once you start getting a team together new possibilities open up. You know what your team-mates will be running and they know what you're running. At this point you're not just building your ship-- you're building synergy. There are countless options as to what build you can run on a team as long as everything is coordinated as compared to a middle-of-the-road build that you are forced into for pug matches.
If you're playing pug pvp's you've taken your first step. If you're here on the forums discussing PvP, that's another step. Now that you've taken your first couple steps, you shouldn't be afraid of walking so go ahead and take that next step, which is forming pugmades from your friend's list and OPvP. One step leads to the next, and before you know it, you will be running with a premade of your own.
Teams should be allowed to que in the public ques... but no more then 3 on a team should be able to que....
To be honest I would agree with lots of the new kids... if you have 5 or even 4 people teamed up ready to fight... use opvp for what its intended for and find a match.
The random nature of pugs can be fun... but ya 4-5 man teams on either side against a team that was 100% random draw... is never going to be any fun for anyone.
minimax made legend from those pug vs prem that u all hate
i been in alot of 15- to
thats why im so good. i get mine every game. get ur shots off when u pack the heat dont matter whos on the otherside, bug, bop or mudderfudgin bot. lights out triple tap game over
and no **** u werent ready. i been getting instant kills vs healspam premades since this game was in beta.
if i had in my way u die u buy new ship dont come back, and id still ram every time!
//none of this insane ramble is directed at victor1st who i am personally saddened will perma afk from pvp. he lived vs my attacks . (sometimes)
I don't really understand this negative attitude that some players have towards teams. I have pvp'ed in other team oriented pvp games and not once did I hear "Ohhh, it's not fair! You're teamed up with people!" Well, yeah, duh. It's a team-oriented game, and it's just something that is expected in a competitive PvP environment. I played StarCraft: BroodWar and teamed with people in my clan or on my friend's list all the time. That game also didn't have a match-making system based on skill or if you were in a team before you queued, but not once in my thousands of games did I hear someone complain about people teaming up with each other. Same goes for Xbox Live. I had a clan that I would team with and come up with strategies for games like the original Ghost Recon or Rainbow Six 3.
In my experience, complaining about others that team up for a team-oriented PvP match is strictly a STO phenomenon. Although, granted, I have not played any other MMO, so maybe it's a MMO thing?
I don't really understand this negative attitude that some players have towards teams. I have pvp'ed in other team oriented pvp games and not once did I hear "Ohhh, it's not fair! You're teamed up with people!" Well, yeah, duh. It's a team-oriented game, and it's just something that is expected in a competitive PvP environment. I played StarCraft: BroodWar and teamed with people in my clan or on my friend's list all the time. That game also didn't have a match-making system based on skill or if you were in a team before you queued, but not once in my thousands of games did I hear someone complain about people teaming up with each other. Same goes for Xbox Live. I had a clan that I would team with and come up with strategies for games like the original Ghost Recon or Rainbow Six 3.
In my experience, complaining about others that team up for a team-oriented PvP match is strictly a STO phenomenon. Although, granted, I have not played any other MMO, so maybe it's a MMO thing?
did those games have random instanced queue systems?
I don't really understand this negative attitude that some players have towards teams.
Its unsporting. Coordinated groups with teamspeak can do things like focus-fire and cross-healing that uncoordinated groups cannot even dream of. Which is fine when you're going against another team with the same abilities, but in a game with public queues that are open to everybody, you are most likely to encounter groups of individuals. Taking a group into a public pool is simply going to be roflstomp the noobs. What kind of fun is that?
In my experience, complaining about others that team up for a team-oriented PvP match is strictly a STO phenomenon.
I see it in all kinds of games with open queues. Scroll up and see what I wrote about my old clan's Call of Duty 4 server--we banned clans that team-stacked the noobs on our public server, take the team roflstomp elsewhere.
edit: Man, Arcrage has really been getting the better of me today...meh.
That came off far more hostile than intended.
Suffice to say, some folks see more of a challenge in the PUG. Not necessarily the pug as found in random queues - there are too many folks that just don't care there, that simply don't try, etc, etc, etc.
But consider Lego blocks, eh?
More challenging to follow the instructions to make something or to make something on your own?
Five guys making something out of random pieces against a group of five guys making something out of random pieces and going at it...well yeah, that's what some folks prefer and actually see as a step up rather than the stepping point to something else.
Its unsporting. Coordinated groups with teamspeak can do things like focus-fire and cross-healing that uncoordinated groups cannot even dream of. Which is fine when you're going against another team with the same abilities, but in a game with public queues that are open to everybody, you are most likely to encounter groups of individuals. Taking a group into a public pool is simply going to be roflstomp the noobs. What kind of fun is that?
I see it in all kinds of games with open queues. Scroll up and see what I wrote about my old clan's Call of Duty 4 server--we banned clans that team-stacked the noobs on our public server, take the team roflstomp elsewhere.
It's not like we set out to roflstomp noobs. If we could get a premade vs. premade match every game, it would be ideal, but that's just not the reality of STO. When I get a team together I always search for another team to fight first, and then if we can't find one we will queue up and cross our fingers that we come across another organized team. We're not going to not play or disband our team just because Cryptic does'nt have a match-making system. Last night my fleet had a team together and we fought against two other premades in challenge matches. In between, we hit the queues. We PvP together--it's how we enjoy playing STO--and if we can't get a custom challenge match going, we're not going to just sit staring at the screen for hours on end (aka PvE), we're gonna hit the queues and hope for the best.
There is nothing wrong with teams. Even with pugs I try to work with my teammates to get a kill. It's just that premades usually bring broken mechanics to pugstomp people. I'm talking about those mechanics that are prohibited in high end pvp tournaments, which are indiscriminately used against pugs lol. Have you faced ever a premade team with at least 3 sci captains carried a copy of scramble sensors enhanced with doffs in a pug hahahaha? I have, but you let me know.
Now that I can't condone, and that is unsporting. If we come across such a team with our pre/pugmade, it's really not too much of a concern to us as we will have plenty of cleanses, but I can see how it could be frustrating to random pugs. There are teams out there that use that broken stuff quite effectively, but it's not going to scare me away. I am up for any type of game--rules, no rules--it doesn't matter to me.
In fact, there was a team doing that last night in the queues spamming scramble sensors with doffs plus graviton pulse. A couple of our fleetmates came across them in the queues so we formed a team and challenged them to a match. Let's just say that their little toys didn't work quite as well they had hoped.
There is nothing wrong with teams. Even with pugs I try to work with my teammates to get a kill. It's just that premades usually bring broken mechanics to pugstomp people. I'm talking about those mechanics that are prohibited in high end pvp tournaments, which are indiscriminately used against pugs lol. Have you faced ever a premade team with at least 3 sci captains carried a copy of scramble sensors enhanced with doffs in a pug hahahaha? I have, but you let me know.
Now that I can't condone, and that is unsporting. If we come across such a team with our pre/pugmade, it's really not too much of a concern to us as we will have plenty of cleanses, but I can see how it could be frustrating to random pugs. There are teams out there that use that broken stuff quite effectively, but it's not going to scare me away. I am up for any type of game--rules, no rules--it doesn't matter to me.
In fact, there was a team doing that last night in the queues spamming scramble sensors with doffs plus graviton pulse. A couple of our fleetmates came across them in the queues so we formed a team and challenged them to a match. Let's just say that their little toys didn't work quite as well they had hoped.
That's along the lines of what I was saying about how folks conduct themselves...many folks are fine with losing, they'll give it all they've got, have fun whether they win or lose.
It's not so much a Premade vs. PUG thing - as it is the behavior of certain Premade groups out there that cause so much of the ruckus.
And it is something, that if folks come across it - that they should mention in a channel like OPvP if they can't put a team together of their own...depending on the time of day, of course, there will usually be a Premade that's looking to meet up with just such a group to teach them a lesson.
Folks that want PvP to grow - know that those particular groups are hurting PvP....whether the folks that want it to grow prefer to team or pug...
It's not the premades that I have an issue with, it's the attitude:
I don't have a fully equipped Fleet level BoP with the necessary consoles, deflector/engine/shield/etc, or any doffs. I plan on getting this gear, but it will still be awhile before I get this stuff.
I pug on occasion to improve my skills in flying and reacting to opponents; I figure most pugs have people who don't have the right gear/doffs, so that makes it a bit of an even playing field.
I come up against a premade? Fine. My goal for that match then is to successfully alpha-kill one person on that team. This would be fine and still fun if the other team wasn't insulting me every time I died, throwing out stuff like "Learn2Play, n00b!" or "Wow, KDF sucks..." or "Go back home to PvE land, you sad sack of ****!"
Heck, last week, I went with a fleet mate into a pug and had to fight a premade team consisting of 2-3 scimitars, a Ha'Nom, and a Odyssey cruiser as bait. I was able to kill the Ha'nom easily, and was even able to kill the bait cruiser before the Scimitars killed me with an alpha strike of their own, TWICE. When I finally learned their tactic, I did an alpha after they finished off another two teammates, and they were able to stop it and kill me.
I was going to show some respect and congratulate them on a job well done. However, as I was typing, the two scimitar players put on the zone chat "Lol, Learn2Play, KDF f**s!" and "KDF sucks! Fed Rules!"
So, I learned then that the whole point of their premade was to ruin the fun of lower skilled/equipped KDF players and make themselves feel better and superior. It's groups like this that takes away the fun of pug games. It's also why I haven't done PvP since, and probably won't even pug until I do have the good gear I need. (<-That last line's probably gonna get me flamed...)
Maybe it's because I'm an ol' fogey (though I know there are older players), but there was a time when more folks knew when to trashtalk and when not to trashtalk.
You know, when there was the guy on the other team you knew rocked or somebody that was demonstrating that they rock - well, you'd try to get under their skin to get them to TRIBBLE up and take them out.
And yeah, there would just be the folks that had met several times and didn't like each other - etc, etc, etc.
So much of the trashtalk these days...is just kind of tedious and pathetic. Meh, it makes me feel old...lol.
Comments
I had to laugh...heh, not at you - but just thinking about some of the matches I've been dropped in where it was pretty much 4-5 healers on one side and 0 healers on the other. Which made me think about how Ker'rat would usually play out...2-3 KDF massively outnumbered in one zone with 2-3 Feds massively outnumbered in another zone.
Does Cryptic have a TrollPvPersSubroutine?
It really got on my nerves there. I would tell them to go do that TRIBBLE on their own server and they would say (1) they did do it on their own server but nobody played there (go figure), or (2) they didnt see a need to pay for a server when they could do it on ours. Internet gaming yo. We did a lot of banning
In order to grow PvP, casual players need to be brought in. I really believe that it's the prospect of fighting the uber premades that keeps them out. How to fix this?
I know people will disagree, but PvP needs a ranking system. The game needs to rank people in various areas (NOT just DPS) and then form groups out of players with similar rankings. If a premade goes in to the queue the system will look for players with the skill to take them on.
Some people will say that there aren't enough players to support this. I don't agree.
At first there will be no difference as the game will need to take quite a few games to accurately rank people. When the system slowly starts to match people, they will find that the games they're playing are more fun. People having fun usually attracts other people who want to have fun. The matches will be closer and more people will be attracted to it. Still, it's only an idea.
I don't know about merging queues, but how about splitting them into Normal and Elite, just like STFs/Fleet Actions?
That way premades with OP builds can queue in Elite and always find their match, and the more casual player can join Normal matches without the fear of getting constantly rolled by unbeatable teams. I think this would somehow even the odds between the two groups.
Of course I understand that that wouldn't prevent some elite premades from joining Normal matches for the sole purpose of griefing newbies. Nevertheless, I would dare to hope that most dedicated pvp players with godly builds are more interested in entering challenging matches against their own peers.
Just an idea.
Cheers.
I mentioned it in another thread discussing merging queues vs. not, etc, etc, etc.
Have to keep in mind how many actual queues there are...
FvF Ground Arena
FvF Ground Assault
FvF Space Arena
FvF Space Capture & Hold
FvK Ground Arena
FvK Ground Assault
FvK Space Arena
FvK Space Capture & Hold
KvK Ground Arena
KvK Ground Assault
KvK Space Arena
KvK Space Capture & Hold
Yep, there's 12 queues.
If you split Normal/Elite, then you'll have 24 queues.
If you merge first, so you've got...
RvB Ground Arena
RvB Ground Assault
RvB Space Arena
RvB Space Capture & Hold
...4 queues; then splitting Normal/Elite would give you 8 queues.
It's along the lines of if they were to add another game type, with the current system - it would add 6 queues taking it to 18 - then if it were split, it would be 36 queues. If they were merged, a new game type would add 2 queues for 6 queues and splitting would still only mean 12 queues.
Sounds like BSGO. There was suppose to be a game like that called Star Trek: infinite space. It was also to be a Unity platform game just like BSGO and %100 PVP. Gameforge was to develop it but could not find a partner company. I think this games PVP would be much more developed had that game been launched. Many Star Trek fans that also love die hard PVP with base and sector control and open system PVP would gravitate away from this game and toward it. That would force Cryptic and PWE to re-think thier PVP platform to keep that playerbase happy. A second Star Trek mulitplayer game would be a good thing for STO as nothing improves customer service and quality control than competition.
This is the attitude that unfortunately not lets you live long in the world of PvP, causes are debatable, but the former is truth.
Sorry to hear another guy leaving PvP, i dont think all is to blame on cryptic though as much as we like to. Sometimes its attitude that wins over cheese.
Sometimes though, mind you, it's the attitude accompanying a win accompanied by cheese that's the biggest issue for some folks.
Some folks can have fun, whether they win or lose...but sometimes the winning team can even take that away from the folks that otherwise have fun either way.
So yeah, while there is a great deal that many of us would lay the blame on Cryptic...there's no doubt that player actions play a large part in it as well.
The manner in which that Premade/PUGmade conducts themselves, both during and after the match plays a role in it. If they abuse the stuff folks blame Cryptic for while patting themselves on the back for lobbing a grenade into a barrel of fish...it's going to be what it is - folks complaining that much more and that many more folks walking away.
instead of makeing i quit threads, when i see the ques clogged with organized players, i find or creat a team myself. i know anyone on opvp cn be relied on.
Internet gaming, you have to base your assumptions on everybody being a hack/tard/moron, and then enjoy the times that they arent. Its just the nature of the beast.
What does RvB stand for? Red vs Blue, I presume? If so, this actually makes very good sense. That would definitely shorten the queue wait time as well.
OTOH, though, it would kill faction-specific teaming and matching, wouldn't it? Even though I really don't care much for which faction I'm matched against, I understand if some players will object to merged queues because zomg! they love pwning {$faction}.
Anyway, I'm all for merging now. Merging and splitting queues into Elite/Normal, that is.
Cheers.
This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to PvP, and especially if you want to get better at PvP and actually be able to compete against these evil premades. I started at the same spot as everyone else, not having a clue as to what I was doing and no friends to PvP with. I was in a PvE fleet when I first started to PvP, but they could not help me and did not want to team with me, so I left in search of a PvP fleet. I then hopped around to a couple different fleets until I found one where I actually fit into a team, but the whole while I was learning how to play pvp from as many different sources as I could (i.e. forums, the pvp fleets I joined, OPvP, and asked questions to players that bested me and added them to my friend's list). I ended up getting a friend's list together that has some of the best PvP'ers in the game, although I didn't know it at the time.
Nowadays, I challenge these same players, fleets, and teams that helped me learn to pvp to 5v5 premade vs. premade matches. I may not always win, but I would rather try to beat the best team in STO and lose, then just throw my arms up and say there's no way I could ever beat these guys. Win or lose, every game is a learning experience. If my team loses to a certain strategy the other team brings to the table, we will discuss what went wrong on our side, and how we can better defend against what they did. The next time we play them, things may turn out differently.
You ask if I've experienced going up against a good team in the queues? Of course. And I relish it. It brings a smile to my face every time my team comes across another premade, especially if they are known to be a good team. I'm not the best player in STO, but there is not a single team in this game that I will shy away from, and in fact, I actively seek out top teams to play against on a regular basis.
There is nothing wrong with pugging, per se, but in the end it does limit what you can accomplish in PvP. I enjoyed pugging for a long time, and still do from time to time, but there is only so much you can do, and it is quite rare that you can actually get a pug team that can compete against a well organized premade. The fact of the matter is that you never know who you're going to be teamed with so you have to build your ship in a way that you can survive without support.
Once you start getting a team together new possibilities open up. You know what your team-mates will be running and they know what you're running. At this point you're not just building your ship-- you're building synergy. There are countless options as to what build you can run on a team as long as everything is coordinated as compared to a middle-of-the-road build that you are forced into for pug matches.
If you're playing pug pvp's you've taken your first step. If you're here on the forums discussing PvP, that's another step. Now that you've taken your first couple steps, you shouldn't be afraid of walking so go ahead and take that next step, which is forming pugmades from your friend's list and OPvP. One step leads to the next, and before you know it, you will be running with a premade of your own.
@DevolvedOne
Yeah, the RvB thing kind of stuck with me after Geko used it for one of the reasons that the Romulans were not a "separate and distinct" faction - wanting to maintain the RvB nature of things. Which sure enough, whether it's FvF, FvK, or KvK...one team is Red and one team is Blue.
As for the faction-specific teaming angle...
FvF...includes Feds and Fed-aligned Roms.
KvK...includes KDF and KDF-aligned Roms.
FvK...includes Feds, KDF, Fed-aligned Roms, and KDF-aligned Roms.
There's been talk of adding additional "factions" down the road - Cardassians, Liberated Borg, etc, etc.
FvK will eventually be Feds, KDF, Fed-aligned Roms, KDF-aligned Roms, Fed-aligned Cardassians, KDF-aligned Cardassians, Fed-aligned Borg, KDF-aligned Borg, Fed-aligned Pakled, KDF-aligned Pakled...etc, etc, etc. Okay, maybe the Pakleds won't get their own faction, lol...
...but FvK is already no longer FvK. FvF is already no longer FvF as KvK is already no longer KvK.
Cryptic already killed that.
If somebody wants an actual FvF match, FvK match, or KvK match - they're going to have to round up the folks and do a private match to get it.
Fixed///10
minimax made legend from those pug vs prem that u all hate
i been in alot of 15- to
thats why im so good. i get mine every game. get ur shots off when u pack the heat dont matter whos on the otherside, bug, bop or mudderfudgin bot. lights out triple tap game over
and no **** u werent ready. i been getting instant kills vs healspam premades since this game was in beta.
if i had in my way u die u buy new ship dont come back, and id still ram every time!
//none of this insane ramble is directed at victor1st who i am personally saddened will perma afk from pvp. he lived vs my attacks . (sometimes)
need moar cruisers yum yum chomp
In my experience, complaining about others that team up for a team-oriented PvP match is strictly a STO phenomenon. Although, granted, I have not played any other MMO, so maybe it's a MMO thing?
@DevolvedOne
did those games have random instanced queue systems?
I see it in all kinds of games with open queues. Scroll up and see what I wrote about my old clan's Call of Duty 4 server--we banned clans that team-stacked the noobs on our public server, take the team roflstomp elsewhere.
That came off far more hostile than intended.
Suffice to say, some folks see more of a challenge in the PUG. Not necessarily the pug as found in random queues - there are too many folks that just don't care there, that simply don't try, etc, etc, etc.
But consider Lego blocks, eh?
More challenging to follow the instructions to make something or to make something on your own?
Five guys making something out of random pieces against a group of five guys making something out of random pieces and going at it...well yeah, that's what some folks prefer and actually see as a step up rather than the stepping point to something else.
Now that I can't condone, and that is unsporting. If we come across such a team with our pre/pugmade, it's really not too much of a concern to us as we will have plenty of cleanses, but I can see how it could be frustrating to random pugs. There are teams out there that use that broken stuff quite effectively, but it's not going to scare me away. I am up for any type of game--rules, no rules--it doesn't matter to me.
In fact, there was a team doing that last night in the queues spamming scramble sensors with doffs plus graviton pulse. A couple of our fleetmates came across them in the queues so we formed a team and challenged them to a match. Let's just say that their little toys didn't work quite as well they had hoped.
@DevolvedOne
That's along the lines of what I was saying about how folks conduct themselves...many folks are fine with losing, they'll give it all they've got, have fun whether they win or lose.
It's not so much a Premade vs. PUG thing - as it is the behavior of certain Premade groups out there that cause so much of the ruckus.
And it is something, that if folks come across it - that they should mention in a channel like OPvP if they can't put a team together of their own...depending on the time of day, of course, there will usually be a Premade that's looking to meet up with just such a group to teach them a lesson.
Folks that want PvP to grow - know that those particular groups are hurting PvP....whether the folks that want it to grow prefer to team or pug...
I don't have a fully equipped Fleet level BoP with the necessary consoles, deflector/engine/shield/etc, or any doffs. I plan on getting this gear, but it will still be awhile before I get this stuff.
I pug on occasion to improve my skills in flying and reacting to opponents; I figure most pugs have people who don't have the right gear/doffs, so that makes it a bit of an even playing field.
I come up against a premade? Fine. My goal for that match then is to successfully alpha-kill one person on that team. This would be fine and still fun if the other team wasn't insulting me every time I died, throwing out stuff like "Learn2Play, n00b!" or "Wow, KDF sucks..." or "Go back home to PvE land, you sad sack of ****!"
Heck, last week, I went with a fleet mate into a pug and had to fight a premade team consisting of 2-3 scimitars, a Ha'Nom, and a Odyssey cruiser as bait. I was able to kill the Ha'nom easily, and was even able to kill the bait cruiser before the Scimitars killed me with an alpha strike of their own, TWICE. When I finally learned their tactic, I did an alpha after they finished off another two teammates, and they were able to stop it and kill me.
I was going to show some respect and congratulate them on a job well done. However, as I was typing, the two scimitar players put on the zone chat "Lol, Learn2Play, KDF f**s!" and "KDF sucks! Fed Rules!"
So, I learned then that the whole point of their premade was to ruin the fun of lower skilled/equipped KDF players and make themselves feel better and superior. It's groups like this that takes away the fun of pug games. It's also why I haven't done PvP since, and probably won't even pug until I do have the good gear I need. (<-That last line's probably gonna get me flamed...)
Formerly Traven158
You know, when there was the guy on the other team you knew rocked or somebody that was demonstrating that they rock - well, you'd try to get under their skin to get them to TRIBBLE up and take them out.
And yeah, there would just be the folks that had met several times and didn't like each other - etc, etc, etc.
So much of the trashtalk these days...is just kind of tedious and pathetic. Meh, it makes me feel old...lol.