Is Cryptic secretly paying them off to kill off PvP? Muahahahahaha...ahem...muahahahahahaha....
I would not be surprised, reall. After LoR even low level Ker'rat become unplayable because of all Romulan VAs and RAs running wild and sniping off lowbies. You would not belive how many new players just quit Ker'rat and never returned because they got harrased by people they cannot kill. Some VAs got it after firrst shots and say 'sorry', rest is just shooting and enjoying easy kills.
Same goes in Arena and CnH with premades. Some (most) just enjoy easy kills and simply do it for fun. Because I cannot get why else would a premade/pugmade ever want to enter queues to fight PUGs. Fun of playing with firends? Against PUG? What fun can there be? Play Windows card games over network - that should give you more fun then roflstomping PUGs.
All in all - yeah, I would not be surprised if Cryptic is, well, not paying, but quietly encouraging something like this. Just to discourage people from playing PvP and get a reason to get rid of PvP.
I would not be surprised, reall. After LoR even low level Ker'rat become unplayable because of all Romulan VAs and RAs running wild and sniping off lowbies. You would not belive how many new players just quit Ker'rat and never returned because they got harrased by people they cannot kill. Some VAs got it after firrst shots and say 'sorry', rest is just shooting and enjoying easy kills.
Same goes in Arena and CnH with premades. Some (most) just enjoy easy kills and simply do it for fun. Because I cannot get why else would a premade/pugmade ever want to enter queues to fight PUGs. Fun of playing with firends? Against PUG? What fun can there be? Play Windows card games over network - that should give you more fun then roflstomping PUGs.
All in all - yeah, I would not be surprised if Cryptic is, well, not paying, but quietly encouraging something like this. Just to discourage people from playing PvP and get a reason to get rid of PvP.
Seriously? It would be easier just to delete pvp rather than do that. Sure pvp is obviously not their first concern when making, well, anything new, but to say they're trying to get rid of pvp by slowly getting rid of players...is just...
Seriously? It would be easier just to delete pvp rather than do that. Sure pvp is obviously not their first concern when making, well, anything new, but to say they're trying to get rid of pvp by slowly getting rid of players...is just...
There would be major backlash if Cryptic were just to delete it. By having players do it, they could blame it on the players; and many folks out there already have PvPers pegged as that kind of player anyway.
There would be major backlash if Cryptic were just to delete it. By having players do it, they could blame it on the players; and many folks out there already have PvPers pegged as that kind of player anyway.
You know, I am usually all for conspiracy theories. Especially those where the man is trying to manipulate the little folk... but I think thats carrying it a little far.
I do not discount that Cryptic doesn't appear to value PvP. Mainly because the number of players who actively play it is low. I know, I know... this is the start of the circular argument that if they build it, more players will come, but if more players don't come they wont invest resources into it, but there would be more players if they improved it.
So we can't play that game... we should all be heralding the virtues of PvP, not falling into these petty arguments where we try to shoot holes in anyone's attempt to at least start the discussion on making it better. Sometimes its like the Jerry Springer show around here...
Try to bring more people into the fold, if cryptic watches the metrics as a mechanism for deciding what to focus on (and I believe they do), then we need to work to get more people into pvp. If it doesn't have their attention now... maybe, it will in the future... and if not.. we can all have fun at least trying.
I'll admit that I may be a Johnny come lately to PvP, but I have been impressed with the efforts of some (PvP Boot Camp, PvP Fleets who host Tournaments (Inner Circle has one open right now) to expand the pvp ranks (Boot Camp), expand the variety or tournaments and so on.
There would be major backlash if Cryptic were just to delete it. By having players do it, they could blame it on the players; and many folks out there already have PvPers pegged as that kind of player anyway.
It's much better to do it and get it over with than to drag it out. People, in general, have short memories. Sim City anyone? The longer it takes to do anything the more people remember and will backlash. If they just deleted all pvp, people would backlash..then find new games and it would be over. I'm not saying pvp is in great condition, cryptic has made a lot of promises to the pvp community that have yet to be fulfilled. In general cryptic has neglected pvp, but I don't believe that they want to kill it with attrition.
Well I'm done with this game.
The past 3 nights have been utterly utterly disgraceful.
Exploits being used, broken stuff and generally all round crapness.
All kidding aside, while the simple truth might be...
Cryptic showed support for PvP Boot Camp, but player interest has waned. Cryptic continuing to pump any resources into it would be a waste of resources that could be utilized in creating pretty new costumes. The players are squarely at fault here.
Certain Premades continuously pugstomping, thus driving away both potential new players and older player alike...is not a Cryptic issue. It is a player issue.
There's a raging discussion that was taking place over what is BS and what is not BS for the No BS tournament. Some would like to point to Cryptic being at fault here, but in the end it is the player that decides what they fly and what gear they use.
Likewise, when any of that drives off potential new players or older players - again, it was because players decided to use it.
...so yes, the simple truth might be that players are 100% at fault for killing off PvP...
...personally, I'd rather point to it as a Cryptic Conspiracy so I can absolve myself and avoid accepting any responsibility.
Those having problems with arena and C+H queues: Go to Ker'rat. Seriously. Yeah, there's a lot more cloaking. . .but the fights tend to be a little more interesting and not always stacked against you. Less in the way of premade gank squads (aside from the occasional presence of TRH and other top-level fleets, and even they can be beat).
Go to Ker'rat and spend time there. The more people bother to spend time there, the better it is. Especially when more KDF shows up and makes the numbers a little more even. If more KDF showed up, we'd have less zones with a 10-3 or 10-4 ratio in favor of the Federation/Fed-Roms.
If you come across an unkillable Wells or Mobius in Ker'rat, you can just avoid it, there's plenty of room in Ker'rat. Traveling in groups will often deter de-cloak attackers (or just make it easier to kill them when they make a run on you).
I haven't entered an arena queue for a long time outside of running 'em against fleetmates (a rare enough event, as I'm not in a PvP fleet), due to the nature of the system. Haven't run C+H for a while, either. Ker'rat is far more interesting, especially for a BoP pilot.
All kidding aside, while the simple truth might be...
Cryptic showed support for PvP Boot Camp, but player interest has waned. Cryptic continuing to pump any resources into it would be a waste of resources that could be utilized in creating pretty new costumes. The players are squarely at fault here.
Certain Premades continuously pugstomping, thus driving away both potential new players and older player alike...is not a Cryptic issue. It is a player issue.
There's a raging discussion that was taking place over what is BS and what is not BS for the No BS tournament. Some would like to point to Cryptic being at fault here, but in the end it is the player that decides what they fly and what gear they use.
Likewise, when any of that drives off potential new players or older players - again, it was because players decided to use it.
...so yes, the simple truth might be that players are 100% at fault for killing off PvP...
...personally, I'd rather point to it as a Cryptic Conspiracy so I can absolve myself and avoid accepting any responsibility.
Thankyou.
Although Cryptic are partly to blame, they introduced the stuff in the first place.
That still doesnt make the players any less guilty.
Ignoring a crime is just as bad as committing it!
Looking at the rules for the no BS tourney. Brilliant, makes me laugh that does, switch it all off against each other but its perfectly acceptable to use it all in multiples in the queues against pugs, casual teams and new people.
Then they cry when people warp out, offer no challenge or simply dont come back and the queues dont pop.
Although Cryptic are partly to blame, they introduced the stuff in the first place.
That still doesnt make the players any less guilty.
Ignoring a crime is just as bad as committing it!
Looking at the rules for the no BS tourney. Brilliant, makes me laugh that does, switch it all off against each other but its perfectly acceptable to use it all in multiples in the queues against pugs, casual teams and new people.
Then they cry when people warp out, offer no challenge or simply dont come back and the queues dont pop.
Fair enough.
Are *you* going to police other players & fleets on what they use?
There have been numerous attempts over the years to foster a policy between PVP fleets not to use certain things in the queues in order to save pugs & new players a rough time. But it's been met with arguments over what is broken and should be distanced until fixed, and what is over-powered and should be either not taken in or used sparingly. Problem is there is no list of either, there's always one person or one group that will argue against the banning of an item/skill/ship and thus it falls apart.
The Boot Camp from my past experiences have always steered clear of teaching questionable tactics and thus giving bad habits to future PVPers. But that's really a very small drop in a massive ocean.
The tournaments that get created, it's creators do their best to limit or remove everything getting in the way of fleet's enjoyment.
We as a community can't police itself, and while technically individual fleets can control their members, that's really not good enough.
Until Cryptic get off their areas and look into aspects of the game that give such negative effects to PVP, we are alone.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Shortly after posting that, had a nifty FvK 4v4 Arena...Pug vs. Pug...ended 15-8. Was fun...
...that's why many folks will continue to PvP, regardless of everything else - because there's still fun to be had.
I am giving up my Eng for PvP - dusted off a fully spec'd and geared Fed Eng in a Fleet Excel - went into a pug - even 4v1 they could not take me down - but I finished the match 0/0 - I could not kill them and they could not kill me - the rest of my team was killed faster than I could heal or shield transfer.
What good is a Super Eng tank in PvP - seems useless to me - especially in a pug
I am giving up my Eng for PvP - dusted off a fully spec'd and geared Fed Eng in a Fleet Excel - went into a pug - even 4v1 they could not take me down - but I finished the match 0/0 - I could not kill them and they could not kill me - the rest of my team was killed faster than I could heal or shield transfer.
What good is a Super Eng tank in PvP - seems useless to me - especially in a pug
It's good in Ker'rat if you wanna troll your attackers :P
Funny as hell seeing someone running an all-tanking build being besieged by 3-5 attackers and still surviving. Also makes for nice bait, so I can come up from behind and take de-cloak shots at people.
It's good in Ker'rat if you wanna troll your attackers :P
Funny as hell seeing someone running an all-tanking build being besieged by 3-5 attackers and still surviving. Also makes for nice bait, so I can come up from behind and take de-cloak shots at people.
Seriously though - do Eng crusier tanks have any roll? My KDF side is tac or sci - I never really played Fed Eng much in PvP - so tried it out and it's just stupid - unless maybe on a pre-made.
Are *you* going to police other players & fleets on what they use?
There have been numerous attempts over the years to foster a policy between PVP fleets not to use certain things in the queues in order to save pugs & new players a rough time. But it's been met with arguments over what is broken and should be distanced until fixed, and what is over-powered and should be either not taken in or used sparingly. Problem is there is no list of either, there's always one person or one group that will argue against the banning of an item/skill/ship and thus it falls apart.
The Boot Camp from my past experiences have always steered clear of teaching questionable tactics and thus giving bad habits to future PVPers. But that's really a very small drop in a massive ocean.
The tournaments that get created, it's creators do their best to limit or remove everything getting in the way of fleet's enjoyment.
We as a community can't police itself, and while technically individual fleets can control their members, that's really not good enough.
Until Cryptic get off their areas and look into aspects of the game that give such negative effects to PVP, we are alone.
I totally agree.
How hard is it to police ones self though?
Its not, I police myself.
I've switched from disruptors due to the proc people were talking about, when I was using scramble on another ship, I didn't use the doff etc etc.
Why the others do it?
They see its under fire on the forum from lots and lots of people, yet they insist on using something for a frankly cheap and easy win.
I'm sure they forget that not all of us are in big PvP fleets, they forget that an average pug doesn't have much going for it anyway, so why use all the s**t they can equip?
Surely it can't be fun for them.
Its sure as hell not fun for us.
If they do find it fun getting cheap, hollow, easy wins over a group of randoms I'd say personally they need to grow up and foxtrot Oscar to another game.
The team I used to jump in with have all but given up on it now, that's how bad it is.
-FS- were bad for it but lately HG's have taken that crown, even going as far as making a singular person suffer because they don't see the point in fighting a battle that is neither fun nor worth playing.
Past couple of nights I and a few others have seen a couple of players doing some incredible stuff that no one could explain.
I can normally take the brunt of an alpha, however, when one guy manages to alpha strike a whole team in 5 seconds flat, including a very good heal boat player, that stinks!
At one point, I had hit Tac team, a shield buff, went high speed for evasive and had my resistances maxed out, out of range of the opposite team by 1-2km and boom, one beam overload took me down to 10% then a quick sport and I was dead, less than a second. I was fully buffed up ffs, I do that and it bounces with little to no effect.
Just as rapidly as I died, the rest of my team died to the same guy.
Cryptic needs to sort that out, that stank of hack.
Typical how certain members getaway with it.
Hell, I might start, safe in the knowledge that cryptic wont do d1ck about it.
(I'd rather quit the game before resorting to cheating by the way).
It's good in Ker'rat if you wanna troll your attackers :P
Funny as hell seeing someone running an all-tanking build being besieged by 3-5 attackers and still surviving. Also makes for nice bait, so I can come up from behind and take de-cloak shots at people.
I've noticed the longer one last in Kerrat the more one "chums the waters."
I have an eng in a marauder with orion interceptors. My existence seems to be a "challenge excepted" to almost everyone on the opposite side. I can usually tank everyone until they actually coordinate their attack. Contrast that with CnH and arena matches and almost no one attacks me because well, it's not really worth it. But, that's one of the things I like about kerrat, there's no risk to losing so it's fun to take on other people you know you're going to lose against or try to kill the zombie that spams zone chat saying they're unkillable.
I totally agree.
How hard is it to police ones self though?
Its not, I police myself.
I've switched from disruptors due to the proc people were talking about, when I was using scramble on another ship, I didn't use the doff etc etc.
Why the others do it?
They see its under fire on the forum from lots and lots of people, yet they insist on using something for a frankly cheap and easy win.
I'm sure they forget that not all of us are in big PvP fleets, they forget that an average pug doesn't have much going for it anyway, so why use all the s**t they can equip?
Surely it can't be fun for them.
Its sure as hell not fun for us.
If they do find it fun getting cheap, hollow, easy wins over a group of randoms I'd say personally they need to grow up and foxtrot Oscar to another game.
The team I used to jump in with have all but given up on it now, that's how bad it is.
-FS- were bad for it but lately HG's have taken that crown, even going as far as making a singular person suffer because they don't see the point in fighting a battle that is neither fun nor worth playing.
Past couple of nights I and a few others have seen a couple of players doing some incredible stuff that no one could explain.
I can normally take the brunt of an alpha, however, when one guy manages to alpha strike a whole team in 5 seconds flat, including a very good heal boat player, that stinks!
At one point, I had hit Tac team, a shield buff, went high speed for evasive and had my resistances maxed out, out of range of the opposite team by 1-2km and boom, one beam overload took me down to 10% then a quick sport and I was dead, less than a second. I was fully buffed up ffs, I do that and it bounces with little to no effect.
Just as rapidly as I died, the rest of my team died to the same guy.
Cryptic needs to sort that out, that stank of hack.
Typical how certain members getaway with it.
Hell, I might start, safe in the knowledge that cryptic wont do d1ck about it.
(I'd rather quit the game before resorting to cheating by the way).
Get your friends together, go into OPvP and get involved in other groups making teams or having private matches where questionable tactics are much less likely. I see players doing it constantly in the evenings.
As for wondering why some players/fleets go all out in the queues, it's partly because they can't get another decent group to fight, or they're prepared to fight tooth and nail in any way in order to win if they meet another good group, winning being the name of the game, after all.
Do I agree with pug stomping? No. Quite a few of my members are quite able to load multiple TIF, AMS, bugs, wells' etc etc that would steamroll pugs, but we rarely do anymore unless we know a decent team is nearby. Hell, we've even started getting people on TS and all of us queuing for something individually in order to make things more uncertain and fun!
You can police yourself very easily, but wouldn't it TRIBBLE you right off if the other guy brought a gun to a knife fight?
I totally agree that there are some people in our community that make this game worse, Dental IMO, but you can't paint us all the same colour.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I am giving up my Eng for PvP - dusted off a fully spec'd and geared Fed Eng in a Fleet Excel - went into a pug - even 4v1 they could not take me down - but I finished the match 0/0 - I could not kill them and they could not kill me - the rest of my team was killed faster than I could heal or shield transfer.
What good is a Super Eng tank in PvP - seems useless to me - especially in a pug
I was actually on my Fed Eng in his Chel Grett for that match I mentioned. I hadn't played him forever for anything other than "Flying High" or doing some tests for different posts, etc, etc, etc.
He pulled 13 pts, gave up 0 pts, did 410-420k damage (can't remember now) and 710-720k healing (one was 10 and one was 20, just can't remember). Can't remember what they had on their team, but we had my Eng in his Chel - an Eng in a Scim (that did roughly the same damage/healing as me, but died twice) - a Sci in a Wells - and a Tac in a...a...er...either an Advanced or MU Patrol (something with that kind of outline). Hrmmm, wait - think they had five - swear there were two Carriers, a D'deridex, a BoP of some sort, and yeah - I'm not going to lie, my memory is foggy on certain things - lol. We won, by the way. The Tac kept running after folks and separating...could never get to him in time. Even the Scim would sing bounce out of range in the midst of trying to toss some heals.
I remember looking at the scoreboard at the end, wondering why my damage was so low and the healing so high. Sure, I tossed out a few more heals than usual - but I'm in a Chel Grett (AtS1, HE2, TSS3 - that's it as far as sharable heals).
So I'm sitting in Sol, and I notice my power levels.
64/25
60/30
75/45
106/100
WTFuxxor? Lol, yep - noob that I am - I had never changed them from when I had been doing some 100 Aux testing for a post. /1000facepalms
I don't think they had any Sci...and that cost them. Tractor Mines, Tractor Beams, Grav Wells, Singularities, Tractor Beam Repulsors...don't mean anything without SNB backing them up. It's just wheeeee, wheeeeee, wheeeee...
One Sci can be problematic, good Tacs can shred me with one Sci. Two Sci starts to make things aggravating. Three Sci, and I spend most of my time looking at the respawn.
Doesn't matter what the Sci is in - just those chained SNBs - no more wheeeee.
Lies! You're all the same color! You're Red if I'm Blue or Blue if I'm Red!
It's one of the most difficult things for folks to do, oddly enough - we're supposed to live in this somewhat "enlightened" era...but folks still group everybody up just the same...meh.
Just because Premade-X enjoys roflstomping pugs in the queues with stuff that even most of the PvP community would /facepalm about, doesn't mean that Premade-Y is going to do the same thing.
Folks can only police themselves and in the case of fleets, try to police their own. Can't blame Fleet-X for something Fleet-Y is doing...
Can't "name and shame" on the forums, so it can be difficult...folks aren't going to agree on things as well, so it can be difficult.
But man oh man, nothing in PvE comes close to the leg bouncing adrenalin rush from PvP. Most PvE is literally broken up so that it cannot happen. Think about it - there are stages, lulls in the action that actually prevent it. PvE is generally designed not to be as exciting...meh.
I was actually on my Fed Eng in his Chel Grett for that match I mentioned. I hadn't played him forever for anything other than "Flying High" or doing some tests for different posts, etc, etc, etc.
He pulled 13 pts, gave up 0 pts, did 410-420k damage (can't remember now) and 710-720k healing (one was 10 and one was 20, just can't remember). Can't remember what they had on their team, but we had my Eng in his Chel - an Eng in a Scim (that did roughly the same damage/healing as me, but died twice) - a Sci in a Wells - and a Tac in a...a...er...either an Advanced or MU Patrol (something with that kind of outline). Hrmmm, wait - think they had five - swear there were two Carriers, a D'deridex, a BoP of some sort, and yeah - I'm not going to lie, my memory is foggy on certain things - lol. We won, by the way. The Tac kept running after folks and separating...could never get to him in time. Even the Scim would sing bounce out of range in the midst of trying to toss some heals.
I remember looking at the scoreboard at the end, wondering why my damage was so low and the healing so high. Sure, I tossed out a few more heals than usual - but I'm in a Chel Grett (AtS1, HE2, TSS3 - that's it as far as sharable heals).
So I'm sitting in Sol, and I notice my power levels.
64/25
60/30
75/45
106/100
WTFuxxor? Lol, yep - noob that I am - I had never changed them from when I had been doing some 100 Aux testing for a post. /1000facepalms
I don't think they had any Sci...and that cost them. Tractor Mines, Tractor Beams, Grav Wells, Singularities, Tractor Beam Repulsors...don't mean anything without SNB backing them up. It's just wheeeee, wheeeeee, wheeeee...
One Sci can be problematic, good Tacs can shred me with one Sci. Two Sci starts to make things aggravating. Three Sci, and I spend most of my time looking at the respawn.
Doesn't matter what the Sci is in - just those chained SNBs - no more wheeeee.
Pesky SNB...
Ok but the Chel is not a Fed Eng Crusier - so how would you define it`s role in a Pug? Especially with team-mates that go pop after a few seconds?
Ok but the Chel is not a Fed Eng Crusier - so how would you define it`s role in a Pug? Especially with team-mates that go pop after a few seconds?
It's a pug. I would not predefine its role in a pug. Predefined roles make sense for a premade - cause, you know what you're rolling with. For a pug? Leads to all sorts of unbalanced teams ripe for the slaughter.
edit: I wanted to come back to this and elaborate some...
If there's a target coming under focus fire, I shoot at it. If there's somebody that's healing too much, I shoot at them so perhaps they don't heal others as much. If there's somebody that desperately needs a heal, I try to toss them a heal (I'm working on not waiting until they desperately need it and it would simply just help instead). If there are a bunch of targetable torps heading somebody's way on my team, I'll fly into them before they get there. If there are tractor mines, I'll let them hook on to me and ignore them. If there are mines in general, where I don't want to give up my target - I'll fly into them to soak the damage. I'll fly between an enemy and their target to wiggle my butt as a distraction. If there are pets that are being ignored that shouldn't be, I don't ignore them - I pop them. As an Eng flying an Escort with base 85% bonus Defense, I'm generally going to get hit less and the Eng Captain abilities help out with survivability - meaning that if somebody's forced to choose between healing two folks, the choice is easier - heal the other guy.
Lil' wall of text there. Basically, my "role" is to try to do what can be done depending on what's going on. That's with Plague, mind you. The other guys down there in my sig, currently - yeah, they're all more specialized in what they do...which is good and bad, imho.
Plague's never going to be on a Premade. He's not built for it. He's not a Tac, so he's not going to have the spike damage the Tac would have. He's not a Sci, so he's not going to create those gaps for the Tac to do their spike damage. He's not in a Recluse or Cruiser, so he's not going to be the healer. But in PUGland, where you never know who is going to be on your team - what they are bringing...likewise...where you never know who is going be on their team - what they are bringing...well, he's somewhat balanced.
Seriously though - do Eng crusier tanks have any roll? My KDF side is tac or sci - I never really played Fed Eng much in PvP - so tried it out and it's just stupid - unless maybe on a pre-made.
If they're specc'd and built for just tanking. . .no, no particularly useful role in PvP, since people will just attack something else. PvE, sure, if they can draw aggro.
If they're running a healboat designed to both tank reasonably well and throw out heals/other support to friendlies, then they've got a useful role as a healer. But, it means they're a little less impregnable.
Lies! You're all the same color! You're Red if I'm Blue or Blue if I'm Red!
It's one of the most difficult things for folks to do, oddly enough - we're supposed to live in this somewhat "enlightened" era...but folks still group everybody up just the same...meh.
Just because Premade-X enjoys roflstomping pugs in the queues with stuff that even most of the PvP community would /facepalm about, doesn't mean that Premade-Y is going to do the same thing.
Folks can only police themselves and in the case of fleets, try to police their own. Can't blame Fleet-X for something Fleet-Y is doing...
Can't "name and shame" on the forums, so it can be difficult...folks aren't going to agree on things as well, so it can be difficult.
But man oh man, nothing in PvE comes close to the leg bouncing adrenalin rush from PvP. Most PvE is literally broken up so that it cannot happen. Think about it - there are stages, lulls in the action that actually prevent it. PvE is generally designed not to be as exciting...meh.
The problem with PvE is that it gets repetitive. The NPCs are very predictable, especially in missions like the STFs where they move on pre-programmed paths. Beat ISE 10-15 times and it starts getting very dull and monotonous. Beat any PvE mission enough times and it will start doing that.
PvP is not predictable, at least not to the same extent. Yes, if I de-cloak attack someone who knows what they're doing, I can expect them to either snap on Tactical Team, RSP, or a major resist buff, or hit the gas and try to outrun my torpedoes for a while and break free of my tractor. The element of unpredictability is still there. It's also much faster paced, as you stated. Someone who's new to PvP will likely be blown away by how FAST things can happen compared to PvE, which is a slow, lumbering beast by comparison. The ones capable of learning will realize quickly what does and does not work in PvP.
I really did. Then the folks who came back to the game via LoR who used to pvp have decided to stop pvp'ing because its nothing more than a massive bad joke.
Just had TEN arena matches in a row... TEN. The pugs i was in faced off against teams with healers, teams with bug ships, teams with healers AND bug ships. All the way through those ten matches about half of the folks said that was their last pvp match, as far as they are concerned cryptic can remove pvp entirely.
...and now im one of them. There is no point to joining those arena queues anymore. No point at all. The fresh blood which came in with LoR has mostly been scared away with premades, instawin lockbox ships and spam.
Ohhhhh...and please spare me the rhetoric of "well folks should make their own premades with friends!" or "folks should join the opvp channel"
Most of the folks in those pug matches i came across was fleetless casual players which is this games LIFE BLOOD. Scare of that type of gamer from PVP and you'll kill off any chance of new folks getting into the arenas.
As for the OPVP channel... yeah join it, ya get good build tips there at least.
Well done premades, p2w console and lockbox kiddies, way to go to start the process of driving that final big effing nail into the coffin on PVP. I played my last arena/cnh match today, im never going back in.
Late last night a day or 2 ago I was pugging FvK against Fed premade, was great fun. KDF pugs tend to be able to give serious premades a good challenge so I was excited unlike when playing on a fed pug and against a premade. We had a Sad Panda healer (bieber) on his KDF alt doing great healing and some debuffs so were able to hang in the fight for 11 kills until we finally lost.
Much more fun then the usual 15-0 stomps that happen in normal FvK with both teams pug.
The other premade didn't use nearly as much cheese as I usually see from Fed premades, both sides fought fairly, no endless TIF spam and web mines everywhere, we all said GG and had a great time.
* a base turn rate of 12+
* can slot 4 DHCs
* has enough Tac stations (or optimal Tac+Eng for A2B) to make use of those DHCs
> then it is a damage dealer.
That's not to say that other ships outside of those parameters can't be damage dealers, but when I look at the Chel Grett it would play the damage dealer role on any build I would come up with for it.
Comments
I would not be surprised, reall. After LoR even low level Ker'rat become unplayable because of all Romulan VAs and RAs running wild and sniping off lowbies. You would not belive how many new players just quit Ker'rat and never returned because they got harrased by people they cannot kill. Some VAs got it after firrst shots and say 'sorry', rest is just shooting and enjoying easy kills.
Same goes in Arena and CnH with premades. Some (most) just enjoy easy kills and simply do it for fun. Because I cannot get why else would a premade/pugmade ever want to enter queues to fight PUGs. Fun of playing with firends? Against PUG? What fun can there be? Play Windows card games over network - that should give you more fun then roflstomping PUGs.
All in all - yeah, I would not be surprised if Cryptic is, well, not paying, but quietly encouraging something like this. Just to discourage people from playing PvP and get a reason to get rid of PvP.
Seriously? It would be easier just to delete pvp rather than do that. Sure pvp is obviously not their first concern when making, well, anything new, but to say they're trying to get rid of pvp by slowly getting rid of players...is just...
There would be major backlash if Cryptic were just to delete it. By having players do it, they could blame it on the players; and many folks out there already have PvPers pegged as that kind of player anyway.
You know, I am usually all for conspiracy theories. Especially those where the man is trying to manipulate the little folk... but I think thats carrying it a little far.
I do not discount that Cryptic doesn't appear to value PvP. Mainly because the number of players who actively play it is low. I know, I know... this is the start of the circular argument that if they build it, more players will come, but if more players don't come they wont invest resources into it, but there would be more players if they improved it.
So we can't play that game... we should all be heralding the virtues of PvP, not falling into these petty arguments where we try to shoot holes in anyone's attempt to at least start the discussion on making it better. Sometimes its like the Jerry Springer show around here...
Try to bring more people into the fold, if cryptic watches the metrics as a mechanism for deciding what to focus on (and I believe they do), then we need to work to get more people into pvp. If it doesn't have their attention now... maybe, it will in the future... and if not.. we can all have fun at least trying.
I'll admit that I may be a Johnny come lately to PvP, but I have been impressed with the efforts of some (PvP Boot Camp, PvP Fleets who host Tournaments (Inner Circle has one open right now) to expand the pvp ranks (Boot Camp), expand the variety or tournaments and so on.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
It's much better to do it and get it over with than to drag it out. People, in general, have short memories. Sim City anyone? The longer it takes to do anything the more people remember and will backlash. If they just deleted all pvp, people would backlash..then find new games and it would be over. I'm not saying pvp is in great condition, cryptic has made a lot of promises to the pvp community that have yet to be fulfilled. In general cryptic has neglected pvp, but I don't believe that they want to kill it with attrition.
The past 3 nights have been utterly utterly disgraceful.
Exploits being used, broken stuff and generally all round crapness.
10 PvPs today alone and not a single decent one.
I'm done.
Go f**k yourselves cryptic!!!
Cryptic showed support for PvP Boot Camp, but player interest has waned. Cryptic continuing to pump any resources into it would be a waste of resources that could be utilized in creating pretty new costumes. The players are squarely at fault here.
Certain Premades continuously pugstomping, thus driving away both potential new players and older player alike...is not a Cryptic issue. It is a player issue.
There's a raging discussion that was taking place over what is BS and what is not BS for the No BS tournament. Some would like to point to Cryptic being at fault here, but in the end it is the player that decides what they fly and what gear they use.
Likewise, when any of that drives off potential new players or older players - again, it was because players decided to use it.
...so yes, the simple truth might be that players are 100% at fault for killing off PvP...
...personally, I'd rather point to it as a Cryptic Conspiracy so I can absolve myself and avoid accepting any responsibility.
Go to Ker'rat and spend time there. The more people bother to spend time there, the better it is. Especially when more KDF shows up and makes the numbers a little more even. If more KDF showed up, we'd have less zones with a 10-3 or 10-4 ratio in favor of the Federation/Fed-Roms.
If you come across an unkillable Wells or Mobius in Ker'rat, you can just avoid it, there's plenty of room in Ker'rat. Traveling in groups will often deter de-cloak attackers (or just make it easier to kill them when they make a run on you).
I haven't entered an arena queue for a long time outside of running 'em against fleetmates (a rare enough event, as I'm not in a PvP fleet), due to the nature of the system. Haven't run C+H for a while, either. Ker'rat is far more interesting, especially for a BoP pilot.
Thankyou.
Although Cryptic are partly to blame, they introduced the stuff in the first place.
That still doesnt make the players any less guilty.
Ignoring a crime is just as bad as committing it!
Looking at the rules for the no BS tourney. Brilliant, makes me laugh that does, switch it all off against each other but its perfectly acceptable to use it all in multiples in the queues against pugs, casual teams and new people.
Then they cry when people warp out, offer no challenge or simply dont come back and the queues dont pop.
...that's why many folks will continue to PvP, regardless of everything else - because there's still fun to be had.
Fair enough.
Are *you* going to police other players & fleets on what they use?
There have been numerous attempts over the years to foster a policy between PVP fleets not to use certain things in the queues in order to save pugs & new players a rough time. But it's been met with arguments over what is broken and should be distanced until fixed, and what is over-powered and should be either not taken in or used sparingly. Problem is there is no list of either, there's always one person or one group that will argue against the banning of an item/skill/ship and thus it falls apart.
The Boot Camp from my past experiences have always steered clear of teaching questionable tactics and thus giving bad habits to future PVPers. But that's really a very small drop in a massive ocean.
The tournaments that get created, it's creators do their best to limit or remove everything getting in the way of fleet's enjoyment.
We as a community can't police itself, and while technically individual fleets can control their members, that's really not good enough.
Until Cryptic get off their areas and look into aspects of the game that give such negative effects to PVP, we are alone.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I am giving up my Eng for PvP - dusted off a fully spec'd and geared Fed Eng in a Fleet Excel - went into a pug - even 4v1 they could not take me down - but I finished the match 0/0 - I could not kill them and they could not kill me - the rest of my team was killed faster than I could heal or shield transfer.
What good is a Super Eng tank in PvP - seems useless to me - especially in a pug
It's good in Ker'rat if you wanna troll your attackers :P
Funny as hell seeing someone running an all-tanking build being besieged by 3-5 attackers and still surviving. Also makes for nice bait, so I can come up from behind and take de-cloak shots at people.
Seriously though - do Eng crusier tanks have any roll? My KDF side is tac or sci - I never really played Fed Eng much in PvP - so tried it out and it's just stupid - unless maybe on a pre-made.
I totally agree.
How hard is it to police ones self though?
Its not, I police myself.
I've switched from disruptors due to the proc people were talking about, when I was using scramble on another ship, I didn't use the doff etc etc.
Why the others do it?
They see its under fire on the forum from lots and lots of people, yet they insist on using something for a frankly cheap and easy win.
I'm sure they forget that not all of us are in big PvP fleets, they forget that an average pug doesn't have much going for it anyway, so why use all the s**t they can equip?
Surely it can't be fun for them.
Its sure as hell not fun for us.
If they do find it fun getting cheap, hollow, easy wins over a group of randoms I'd say personally they need to grow up and foxtrot Oscar to another game.
The team I used to jump in with have all but given up on it now, that's how bad it is.
-FS- were bad for it but lately HG's have taken that crown, even going as far as making a singular person suffer because they don't see the point in fighting a battle that is neither fun nor worth playing.
Past couple of nights I and a few others have seen a couple of players doing some incredible stuff that no one could explain.
I can normally take the brunt of an alpha, however, when one guy manages to alpha strike a whole team in 5 seconds flat, including a very good heal boat player, that stinks!
At one point, I had hit Tac team, a shield buff, went high speed for evasive and had my resistances maxed out, out of range of the opposite team by 1-2km and boom, one beam overload took me down to 10% then a quick sport and I was dead, less than a second. I was fully buffed up ffs, I do that and it bounces with little to no effect.
Just as rapidly as I died, the rest of my team died to the same guy.
Cryptic needs to sort that out, that stank of hack.
Typical how certain members getaway with it.
Hell, I might start, safe in the knowledge that cryptic wont do d1ck about it.
(I'd rather quit the game before resorting to cheating by the way).
I've noticed the longer one last in Kerrat the more one "chums the waters."
I have an eng in a marauder with orion interceptors. My existence seems to be a "challenge excepted" to almost everyone on the opposite side. I can usually tank everyone until they actually coordinate their attack. Contrast that with CnH and arena matches and almost no one attacks me because well, it's not really worth it. But, that's one of the things I like about kerrat, there's no risk to losing so it's fun to take on other people you know you're going to lose against or try to kill the zombie that spams zone chat saying they're unkillable.
Get your friends together, go into OPvP and get involved in other groups making teams or having private matches where questionable tactics are much less likely. I see players doing it constantly in the evenings.
As for wondering why some players/fleets go all out in the queues, it's partly because they can't get another decent group to fight, or they're prepared to fight tooth and nail in any way in order to win if they meet another good group, winning being the name of the game, after all.
Do I agree with pug stomping? No. Quite a few of my members are quite able to load multiple TIF, AMS, bugs, wells' etc etc that would steamroll pugs, but we rarely do anymore unless we know a decent team is nearby. Hell, we've even started getting people on TS and all of us queuing for something individually in order to make things more uncertain and fun!
You can police yourself very easily, but wouldn't it TRIBBLE you right off if the other guy brought a gun to a knife fight?
I totally agree that there are some people in our community that make this game worse, Dental IMO, but you can't paint us all the same colour.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I was actually on my Fed Eng in his Chel Grett for that match I mentioned. I hadn't played him forever for anything other than "Flying High" or doing some tests for different posts, etc, etc, etc.
He pulled 13 pts, gave up 0 pts, did 410-420k damage (can't remember now) and 710-720k healing (one was 10 and one was 20, just can't remember). Can't remember what they had on their team, but we had my Eng in his Chel - an Eng in a Scim (that did roughly the same damage/healing as me, but died twice) - a Sci in a Wells - and a Tac in a...a...er...either an Advanced or MU Patrol (something with that kind of outline). Hrmmm, wait - think they had five - swear there were two Carriers, a D'deridex, a BoP of some sort, and yeah - I'm not going to lie, my memory is foggy on certain things - lol. We won, by the way. The Tac kept running after folks and separating...could never get to him in time. Even the Scim would sing bounce out of range in the midst of trying to toss some heals.
I remember looking at the scoreboard at the end, wondering why my damage was so low and the healing so high. Sure, I tossed out a few more heals than usual - but I'm in a Chel Grett (AtS1, HE2, TSS3 - that's it as far as sharable heals).
So I'm sitting in Sol, and I notice my power levels.
64/25
60/30
75/45
106/100
WTFuxxor? Lol, yep - noob that I am - I had never changed them from when I had been doing some 100 Aux testing for a post. /1000facepalms
I don't think they had any Sci...and that cost them. Tractor Mines, Tractor Beams, Grav Wells, Singularities, Tractor Beam Repulsors...don't mean anything without SNB backing them up. It's just wheeeee, wheeeeee, wheeeee...
One Sci can be problematic, good Tacs can shred me with one Sci. Two Sci starts to make things aggravating. Three Sci, and I spend most of my time looking at the respawn.
Doesn't matter what the Sci is in - just those chained SNBs - no more wheeeee.
Pesky SNB...
Lies! You're all the same color! You're Red if I'm Blue or Blue if I'm Red!
It's one of the most difficult things for folks to do, oddly enough - we're supposed to live in this somewhat "enlightened" era...but folks still group everybody up just the same...meh.
Just because Premade-X enjoys roflstomping pugs in the queues with stuff that even most of the PvP community would /facepalm about, doesn't mean that Premade-Y is going to do the same thing.
Folks can only police themselves and in the case of fleets, try to police their own. Can't blame Fleet-X for something Fleet-Y is doing...
Can't "name and shame" on the forums, so it can be difficult...folks aren't going to agree on things as well, so it can be difficult.
But man oh man, nothing in PvE comes close to the leg bouncing adrenalin rush from PvP. Most PvE is literally broken up so that it cannot happen. Think about it - there are stages, lulls in the action that actually prevent it. PvE is generally designed not to be as exciting...meh.
Ok but the Chel is not a Fed Eng Crusier - so how would you define it`s role in a Pug? Especially with team-mates that go pop after a few seconds?
It's a pug. I would not predefine its role in a pug. Predefined roles make sense for a premade - cause, you know what you're rolling with. For a pug? Leads to all sorts of unbalanced teams ripe for the slaughter.
edit: I wanted to come back to this and elaborate some...
If there's a target coming under focus fire, I shoot at it. If there's somebody that's healing too much, I shoot at them so perhaps they don't heal others as much. If there's somebody that desperately needs a heal, I try to toss them a heal (I'm working on not waiting until they desperately need it and it would simply just help instead). If there are a bunch of targetable torps heading somebody's way on my team, I'll fly into them before they get there. If there are tractor mines, I'll let them hook on to me and ignore them. If there are mines in general, where I don't want to give up my target - I'll fly into them to soak the damage. I'll fly between an enemy and their target to wiggle my butt as a distraction. If there are pets that are being ignored that shouldn't be, I don't ignore them - I pop them. As an Eng flying an Escort with base 85% bonus Defense, I'm generally going to get hit less and the Eng Captain abilities help out with survivability - meaning that if somebody's forced to choose between healing two folks, the choice is easier - heal the other guy.
Lil' wall of text there. Basically, my "role" is to try to do what can be done depending on what's going on. That's with Plague, mind you. The other guys down there in my sig, currently - yeah, they're all more specialized in what they do...which is good and bad, imho.
Plague's never going to be on a Premade. He's not built for it. He's not a Tac, so he's not going to have the spike damage the Tac would have. He's not a Sci, so he's not going to create those gaps for the Tac to do their spike damage. He's not in a Recluse or Cruiser, so he's not going to be the healer. But in PUGland, where you never know who is going to be on your team - what they are bringing...likewise...where you never know who is going be on their team - what they are bringing...well, he's somewhat balanced.
If they're specc'd and built for just tanking. . .no, no particularly useful role in PvP, since people will just attack something else. PvE, sure, if they can draw aggro.
If they're running a healboat designed to both tank reasonably well and throw out heals/other support to friendlies, then they've got a useful role as a healer. But, it means they're a little less impregnable.
The problem with PvE is that it gets repetitive. The NPCs are very predictable, especially in missions like the STFs where they move on pre-programmed paths. Beat ISE 10-15 times and it starts getting very dull and monotonous. Beat any PvE mission enough times and it will start doing that.
PvP is not predictable, at least not to the same extent. Yes, if I de-cloak attack someone who knows what they're doing, I can expect them to either snap on Tactical Team, RSP, or a major resist buff, or hit the gas and try to outrun my torpedoes for a while and break free of my tractor. The element of unpredictability is still there. It's also much faster paced, as you stated. Someone who's new to PvP will likely be blown away by how FAST things can happen compared to PvE, which is a slow, lumbering beast by comparison. The ones capable of learning will realize quickly what does and does not work in PvP.
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/903254174180017212/D5A804E8D0B5CCF68459A42DB9D2A693B25DBE0B/
The picture says it all. You were in our winning pug team against a premade last night.
role= meatshield.
Do you even Science Bro?
He's not a meatshield...he'd have to be hit to be a meatshield. Wheeeeeeee!
Much more fun then the usual 15-0 stomps that happen in normal FvK with both teams pug.
The other premade didn't use nearly as much cheese as I usually see from Fed premades, both sides fought fairly, no endless TIF spam and web mines everywhere, we all said GG and had a great time.
Interesting conclusion.
My rule of thumb is that if it has:
* a base turn rate of 12+
* can slot 4 DHCs
* has enough Tac stations (or optimal Tac+Eng for A2B) to make use of those DHCs
> then it is a damage dealer.
That's not to say that other ships outside of those parameters can't be damage dealers, but when I look at the Chel Grett it would play the damage dealer role on any build I would come up with for it.
First time for a LONG time me in a pug team won against a premade