Consider what you're saying here and what's been said.
There's a Premade. There are the "disorganized masses" pretending to be teams. The disorganized masses should form teams. They can hop in OPvP and form a team. It takes five folks to form that opposing team - it's easy enough - they just need to do it. They need to quit whining.
Ah, but as I've been pointing out, it's NOT easy. Sure, you can grab 5 random people and declare yourselves a team. This does not actually make you a team. To be a team requires that you actually synchronize your schedules and drill together to function as a unit. That's what some of these premades are doing. This is not so easy, or else there'd be many of these units stomping around fighting each other as well.
But uh...the Premade can't look for another team - can't organize some folks for them to fight...because it's too hard!
The difficulty of organizing 10 people into a game is exponentially more difficult than organizing 5. The reason the 5 man team exists at all is because those 5 people have managed to synchronize their schedules sufficiently such that they manage to have an overlapping window in which they can all drill and fight at that time, since otherwise there is no team. If a different 5-man team exists, that happens to have a different fight window, these two teams cannot fight each other because they would never be able to muster simultaneously. So what you're effectively asking is that people somehow form a *10* man team of synchronized scheduling. This is orders of magnitude more difficult than a 5 man team.
Really? All they need to do is what they've told other folks to do... and being that they're already used to organizing, it should be even easier for them to get other folks organized.
You're asking them to spend their time organizing their enemies. People who are intrinsically hostile to them and everything they stand for. Aside from the fact that getting your hated enemies to listen to you is basically impossible, there is no reason why they should even consider this their responsibility.
Just like folks will see there's a bunch of folks talking and ask if anybody wants to set up a 10v10 - they'll organize that...which includes organizing their enemies, eh?
I point out that while people often propose such things, they rarely, if ever, actually end up happening, and when they do, are little more than ad-hoc trainwrecks with little or no semblance of order and organization, and are hardly premade units doing battle against each other. They are, by no means, organized teams of hated enemies that have somehow managed to find each other through the mess of incompatible schedules so that they can crush the other one.
Because let's be honest: Your friends barely listen to you. Your enemies sure as hell won't.
That any employee in any company would say that they can't put effort into something because they fear customers may not be satisfied and ask for more is just crazy. Even if that's the real reason you NEVER say something like that. I think Bort was saying more than he should because he lacks experience in certain professional settings, I've made my own share of mistakes in similar situations so I can understand saying something and regretting it later.
I have no problem with what he said. It's one of the better ways to fight feature creep which can kill projects.
The difficulty of organizing 10 people into a game is exponentially more difficult than organizing 5.
Admittedly I didn't read the rest...my apologies for that, but you're missing my point in regard to this.
You're not organizing 10 people. You're organizing 5 people. You've ALREADY organized 5. You only have to organize 5 more. If you can't organize 5 people, how can they organize 5 people? So how can you blame them for something you can't do either?
Consider what you're saying here and what's been said.
There's a Premade. There are the "disorganized masses" pretending to be teams. The disorganized masses should form teams. They can hop in OPvP and form a team. It takes five folks to form that opposing team - it's easy enough - they just need to do it. They need to quit whining.
But uh...the Premade can't look for another team - can't organize some folks for them to fight...because it's too hard!
Really? All they need to do is what they've told other folks to do... and being that they're already used to organizing, it should be even easier for them to get other folks organized.
I mean, it's that simple - that's the main problem that I see with certain members of the Premade crowd. It's not the entire crowd - not by a long shot.
There are the folks that will ask in OPvP if there are other Premades out there. They'll /friend folks that run Premades - make note of the fleets out there - make contacts - ask around. If there's not, they might ask if anybody wants to form a Pugmade for some "sparring" or a match against them. They try to make use of the tools available to them to try to get at least a decent match.
Just like folks will see there's a bunch of folks talking and ask if anybody wants to set up a 10v10 - they'll organize that...which includes organizing their enemies, eh?
There's those kind of folks...
...and then there's those that just hit the queues for some pugstomping, while blaming the pugs for not being more organized.
You can't tell them that they need to use the tools available to them while not using them yourself...it's beyond hypocritcal.
I actually agree with this to a certain extent. Fleets/teams/pugmades/premades should ask around first, but there's not always another team on or maybe the person doesn't have a ton of contacts. I suppose I'm fortunate because I have made a decent number of contacts with different fleets and I do arrange matches on the fly on a nightly basis. I can't always get one, but many times a week I will play in premade vs. premade. The other times I hit the queues either by myself or with anywhere from 1 to 4 teammates. Also, I arrange weekly matches for my fleet to fight against other fleets. So yes, I agree, more people should do this, and it's not really that difficult once you play with some people.
"Hey, does your fleet want to fight against us?"
"Let me see."
"Ok, just let me know."
"Yeah, we've got a team on."
"Alright, I'll invite you."
That's about it. It's not too hard and more people should do it. I do it all the time, whether on a whim or to schedule a match a week away. There has been maybe one or two times that another fleet has asked me if I have a team to play against them and that needs to happen a lot more often. People need to take the initiative more.
Consider this an Open Invite for any fleet or team to challenge Nova Core to a match whenever anyone has a team on. My handle is in my sig on every post. Feel free to mail me or PM me if I'm on when you are and we can arrange a match for that night, tomorrow, or next week.See you in the que...err, wait :x
You're asking them to spend their time organizing their enemies. People who are intrinsically hostile to them and everything they stand for. Aside from the fact that getting your hated enemies to listen to you is basically impossible, there is no reason why they should even consider this their responsibility.
Okay, I read this part too...and I took some Excedrin.
Dude, it's a game...you're acting like it's a case of Group A just bombed where Group B lives, killing their parents and children, and then trying to get them to play a game of basketball.
Seriously, it's a game...some folks are taking PvP in STO way too seriously.
And yeah, the responsibility thing - no, players like that will never accept any responsibility for the adverse affect they have on the community...
For a casual player, PVP is inaccessible; even more so for those who don't have the benefit of forum or channel awareness to understand what's going on. (I die - a lot - but when I can understand the combo that's doing it, it's easier to just go "meh".)
So what? Well, while the bar is so high, participation will remain low. Which in turn means that Cryptic have little or no incentive to develop PVP rather than another set of rep missions or adventure zone. Hardcore PVPers need to ask themselves whether this is desirable - the tone on these forums is a slightly schizophrenic one of wanting PVP development while railing against any effort to make it more accessible (Boot Camp and OPVP, while laudable, are treating the symptons rather than the cause).
I agree and disagree. Yes, that's kinda how it is. But if more casual players were in the queues then it would mean the chances of coming up against another bunch of casual players would be far far greater than they are now. Take the PvE queues as the perfect example on how that works. With the current mechanics, the best way to make pvp accessible to casual players is for casual players to access it en masse.
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
I actually agree with this to a certain extent. Fleets/teams/pugmades/premades should ask around first, but there's not always another team on or maybe the person doesn't have a ton of contacts. I suppose I'm fortunate because I have made a decent number of contacts with different fleets and I do arrange matches on the fly on a nightly basis. I can't always get one, but many times a week I will play in premade vs. premade. The other times I hit the queues either by myself or with anywhere from 1 to 4 teammates. Also, I arrange weekly matches for my fleet to fight against other fleets. So yes, I agree, more people should do this, and it's not really that difficult once you play with some people.
"Hey, does your fleet want to fight against us?"
"Let me see."
"Ok, just let me know."
"Yeah, we've got a team on."
"Alright, I'll invite you."
That's about it. It's not too hard and more people should do it. I do it all the time, whether on a whim or to schedule a match a week away. There has been maybe one or two times that another fleet has asked me if I have a team to play against them and that needs to happen a lot more often. People need to take the initiative more.
Consider this an Open Invite for any fleet or team to challenge Nova Core to a match whenever anyone has a team on. My handle is in my sig on every post. Feel free to mail me or PM me if I'm on when you are and we can arrange a match for that night, tomorrow, or next week.See you in the que...err, wait :x
That's part of the thing where I'm walking that line between the sides. Yes, the PUG folks if they're having issues with teams stomping them - they need to take initiative. Likewise though, they're not the only side that should be taking some initiative.
Premades take initiative.
PUGmades take initiative.
Folks that PUG take initiative.
Maybe I'm delusional, but I see those as steps that players can take to improve things.
I haven't been arguing in this thread for Premades to have a separate queue - I've argued against the separate queue thing. I haven't been arguing for Premades not to join the queues.
I'm just saying that maybe if they look first to see if there is another team out there or if anybody wants to put together a team to fight them, then not only will it cut down on some of the complaints from the PUG folks out there - but that the team will likely also find a better match. They're not going to get better practicing against the dregs - to get better, you need to be challenged - etc, etc, etc.
The other thing is simply not rubbing it in their faces if there isn't another team out there and they end up in the queues...
I want the community to grow - like I said in that other thread, not because I'm some hippy feel the love guy...I just want Cryptic to see how many folks are into PvP, see that it is worth the investment, and fix all the damn TRIBBLE. It's an extremely selfish reason.
If folks keep driving folks off or folks give up...well, that doesn't help me.
So yeah, I'm potentially going to TRIBBLE off both sides...going to tell the PUG folks that sometimes they're going to need to HTFU and the Premade folks that sometimes they're going to need to STFU.
Damn it, I want Cryptic to take an interest in PvP - invest in it - fix TRIBBLE - and wah, wah, wah - yeah, my own little whining thing...meh, I need a smoke.
Yeah, well, it's not that hard either....definitely not hard enough to require CAPS LOCK.
You're asking them to spend their time organizing their enemies. People who are intrinsically hostile to them and everything they stand for. Aside from the fact that getting your hated enemies to listen to you is basically impossible, there is no reason why they should even consider this their responsibility.
Dude, what are you talking about? This isn't the TRIBBLE trying to invade Great Britain. It's a videogame. We're all friends here...or at least there should be no reason to be "hated enemies." I will fight against one team, and then invite someone from that same team later that night to team up with my team. If you want to organize a match then obviously you're going to have to discuss it with "your hated enemy."
I point out that while people often propose such things, they rarely, if ever, actually end up happening, and when they do, are little more than ad-hoc trainwrecks with little or no semblance of order and organization, and are hardly premade units doing battle against each other. They are, by no means, organized teams of hated enemies that have somehow managed to find each other through the mess of incompatible schedules so that they can crush the other one.
Because let's be honest: Your friends barely listen to you. Your enemies sure as hell won't.
I have no problem with what he said. It's one of the better ways to fight feature creep which can kill projects.
110% Agree. It is common place that copmanies need to balance the need/want of the customer, vs long term strategic goals, vs the differing needs/wants of other customer segments. Believe it or not there are things called Risk Mitigation meetings that analyze the risk of implementing a particular idea, and whether or not the benefit outweighs the risk.
To be honest, I love that response, and applaud his courage for posting it in the forums (i had never seen that post), and in these forums I'm surprised there wasn't a news story about people marching on the Cryptic office with Torches and Pitchforks. Is it OK that customers request features, absolutely... but is the company required to implement all suggestions, absolutely not.
There's a Premade. There are the "disorganized masses" pretending to be teams. The disorganized masses should form teams. They can hop in OPvP and form a team. It takes five folks to form that opposing team - it's easy enough - they just need to do it. They need to quit whining.
But uh...the Premade can't look for another team - can't organize some folks for them to fight...because it's too hard!
Part 1 is what you see in the queues most of the time, at least for my fleet.
5 guys who happened to be online and have the time for pew pew. Sometimes it's only 3 guys, or only 2.
If we know there is another fleet team in the queues, we'll actually think about what ships and captains we're bringing.
Part 2 has it's own complications.
Aside from all of the inter-fleet drama, there is the fact that when you do in fact set up a "real" 5v5 challenge match you are now tasked with bringing a solid team setup - no one wants to lose, and yes this is where fleet v fleet ego's sometimes get involved.
Case in point: The nice folks over at Lag (Hi Reg!) have tried to get a match going with SP for over a week now. Due to RL stuff and the realities of time zone issues affecting scheduling it still hasn't happened.
We're hoping to get that match going tonight, finally.
The queues? The queues are always there and open to everyone.
So when people want to get their daily pewpew on, the only thing the guys in my fleet actually care about in STO, that's what they do.
PvE is an end to a means, PvP is the goal. Outside of some of the newer Pandas, most of the guys in my fleet only play this game for PvP.
There are the folks that will ask in OPvP if there are other Premades out there. They'll /friend folks that run Premades - make note of the fleets out there - make contacts - ask around. If there's not, they might ask if anybody wants to form a Pugmade for some "sparring" or a match against them. They try to make use of the tools available to them to try to get at least a decent match.
Just like folks will see there's a bunch of folks talking and ask if anybody wants to set up a 10v10 - they'll organize that...which includes organizing their enemies, eh?
There's those kind of folks...
...and then there's those that just hit the queues for some pugstomping, while blaming the pugs for not being more organized.
You can't tell them that they need to use the tools available to them while not using them yourself...it's beyond hypocritcal.
You and I were agreeing here right up until the last line where you suddenly lumped everyone who plays as "premades" and their behavior into one unified mass.
Hopping into the queue doesn't require scheduling.
It requires yourself + anyone else who happens to be around.
I'm not sure what you're going on about here. Obviously a challenge match is ideal for a team that wants to fight another team since it is the only way to do pre-arranged matches. But it's only useful when you have 2 full teams that want to fight. You can't just make a challenge match without someone to fight and then magically another team shows up. So when you can't get a pre-arranged match you join the queue since that's the only other way to pvp with your friends/team. It's pretty simple.
You're not organizing 10 people. You're organizing 5 people. You've ALREADY organized 5. You only have to organize 5 more. If you can't organize 5 people, how can they organize 5 people? So how can you blame them for something you can't do either?
1) You're organizing 5 of your own people and trying to get someone else to organize 5 players who are not in your fleet. You're actually thinking about team comp, probably bringing your best geared character, you're thinking about a strategy based on who you might be up against and what they tend/like to run.
2) I suggested that other players try to make a few friends to play with, they don't necessarily have to always be a 5 man team. We do that as well, we hop in the queues with our friends and fleet-mates but we don't always have 5 and its most certainly not "a premade" set up.
my main reason for not doing PvP as much as I used to is all of the cheesy exploits like the script targeting... (where you can still see your cloaked opponent of you know his name and know the proper script command) or the Shields exploit that is out there with a certain shield making you invulnerable and unkillable.... and lets not mention the skill uni consoles and spam a lot that I see being used (I am not going to name names but you all know who you are) it is because of these things that I have been slowly removing myself from PVP
Major Xi'Zzin I.R.W. Raptor's Claw Storm Eagle Class WarbirdFleet Ha'feh I have never trusted humans, and I never will
That all sounds like a Big Kindergarden where the Old Childs are crying because there came New Childs who wants to Play their Game.
Yes join OPvP Channel... The only Thing you get there are False Tips of the Old, Big PvP Fleets and Flaming and trolling between those Fleets because One Fleet says to the other 'you guys are using op Consoles, exploits, hax or other Bad Things', and Visa Verse.
No One of them has a Real Interest in train new Players in Teamplay or help them in skilling their Chars. If you say so... Then post your real Builds and not the fake One for the Public.
And most Important... Do a fair Play. Don't kill the newbies at the Spawn Point, don't let them face a premade Team, integrate them and offer some new Players to join your Team and TS to learn from you how to be a Good PvP Player.
Then the PvP Community will grow and there will be good Players you can fight with.
Oh, i forgot, there is the PvP BootCamp...
Do One of you Guys really the new Players trust their Coaches after reading the Discussions in OPvP Channel or this Forum? Just kiding, i am sure that all Information you get there is not really false but incomplete. They have no Interest in training equal skilled Players because they will loose their 'God Father' Image if they could not kill you with One Attack.
That's all my expirience i had after joining OPvP and doing the BootCamp.
There is quite a bit that Ker'rat has going for itself over other PvP endeavors in the game.
Have wondered from time to time, if something along those lines - wouldn't work its way into the talk about the mix of Competitive PvE and PvP with some fighting over Neutral Zone systems... systems where folks could go, enter the PvP instance or the Fed/KDF PvE instance - fight for rewards, whatever - system changes, contribution based rewards, etc, etc, etc - add something...but that's kind of neither here nor there regarding what I wanted to say mostly in reply...
Yes, starbases in the neutral zone(s) make excellent places to put open PVP zones. But, one of the reasons Ker'rat "works" (and also the reason it doesnt) is PvE loot drops drawing in the mice for the cats to play with. There needs to be motivation to enter the starbase maps, that is not just PvE loot drops.
What we need is bait for cats, that get other cats to come play
Maybe something like a reward for reclaiming the starbase for your faction. Have to consider possible exploits too, like switching between factions and claiming the reward over and over.
That all sounds like a Big Kindergarden where the Old Childs are crying because there came New Childs who wants to Play their Game.
Yes join OPvP Channel... The only Thing you get there are False Tips of the Old, Big PvP Fleets and Flaming and trolling between those Fleets because One Fleet says to the other 'you guys are using op Consoles, exploits, hax or other Bad Things', and Visa Verse.
No One of them has a Real Interest in train new Players in Teamplay or help them in skilling their Chars. If you say so... Then post your real Builds and not the fake One for the Public.
And most Important... Do a fair Play. Don't kill the newbies at the Spawn Point, don't let them face a premade Team, integrate them and offer some new Players to join your Team and TS to learn from you how to be a Good PvP Player.
Then the PvP Community will grow and there will be good Players you can fight with.
Oh, i forgot, there is the PvP BootCamp...
Do One of you Guys really the new Players trust their Coaches after reading the Discussions in OPvP Channel or this Forum? Just kiding, i am sure that all Information you get there is not really false but incomplete. They have no Interest in training equal skilled Players because they will loose their 'God Father' Image if they could not kill you with One Attack.
That's all my expirience i had after joining OPvP and doing the BootCamp.
wow u mad bro? sound like someone lacks a prom date.
Opvp have helped me many times over. The fact that some fleets like to keep their builds a tightly knit secret has little to do with opvp.
As for boot camp you accusations are way off. We collectively decided to focus on the basic mechanics this game was designed around, instead of wasting time on broken mechanics and how to make the most of the latest exploits, before they are fixed.
Despite all this: we encouraged people to make the most of what they wanted to fly in/ with. If you had 3 broken ultra rare doofs, and some lobi consoles to accompany them, we would work with that. Its just not a very beginner friendly starting point. No conspiracy to hold people back.
That all sounds like a Big Kindergarden where the Old Childs are crying because there came New Childs who wants to Play their Game.
Yes join OPvP Channel... The only Thing you get there are False Tips of the Old, Big PvP Fleets and Flaming and trolling between those Fleets because One Fleet says to the other 'you guys are using op Consoles, exploits, hax or other Bad Things', and Visa Verse.
No One of them has a Real Interest in train new Players in Teamplay or help them in skilling their Chars. If you say so... Then post your real Builds and not the fake One for the Public.
And most Important... Do a fair Play. Don't kill the newbies at the Spawn Point, don't let them face a premade Team, integrate them and offer some new Players to join your Team and TS to learn from you how to be a Good PvP Player.
Then the PvP Community will grow and there will be good Players you can fight with.
Oh, i forgot, there is the PvP BootCamp...
Do One of you Guys really the new Players trust their Coaches after reading the Discussions in OPvP Channel or this Forum? Just kiding, i am sure that all Information you get there is not really false but incomplete. They have no Interest in training equal skilled Players because they will loose their 'God Father' Image if they could not kill you with One Attack.
That's all my expirience i had after joining OPvP and doing the BootCamp.
Well, I'm sorry that you didn't have a positive experience with Boot Camp. I was a student there, and a lot of what was covered (especially in sessions 2 and 3) were very, very helpful. Even the players who I coach have said that the first two sessions we have covered so far have been extremely helpful.
Do I trust my (fellow) coaches? Absolutely. They know what they're doing, and while not every coach may be the best player in every PvP scenario, every class, etc etc etc, they do know enough to pass the information onwards so each student can go and build upon the foundation themselves.
Is the info incomplete? Probably, since the coaches aren't paid professionals and have decades of training. They are taking the time to share their first-hand experience and tips with you, so you can grow and expand your own abilities, knowledge and experience. As for "no interest", if they really had no interest, they wouldn't be signing up to take two, three hours out of their day to coach new players, for free and with very little rewards from Cryptic. And as for "one attack", then I don't believe you have completely grasped Boot Camp's goal: to teach players how to be effective in PvP, not only by themselves but in a teamed setting as well - which, in a team setting, PewPew isn't the only important thing. Subnucs, team healing, movement disables, etc are also important as well.
In regards to fair play in general. It's my own moral code not to spawncamp, pick on new inexperienced players too often, etc, and I try and instill those values as much as possible. However, humans are humans, and some will inevitably view some or all of the points you discussed as "OK" to do. Yeah, it's not fair, but at least some of us are trying actively to make sure that the numbers are low.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
wow u mad bro? sound like someone lacks a prom date.
Opvp have helped me many times over. The fact that some fleets like to keep their builds a tightly knit secret has little to do with opvp.
As for boot camp you accusations are way off. We collectively decided to focus on the basic mechanics this game was designed around, instead of wasting time on broken mechanics and how to make the most of the latest exploits, before they are fixed.
Despite all this: we encouraged people to make the most of what they wanted to fly in/ with. If you had 3 broken ultra rare doofs, and some lobi consoles to accompany them, we would work with that. Its just not a very beginner friendly starting point. No conspiracy to hold people back.
Thanks Havam.
Boot Camp has always been about fair play and encouraging people to play together and supporting one another.
That there is even a single person that believes otherwise, only demonstrates we need to focus our efforts and push on.
That all sounds like a Big Kindergarden where the Old Childs are crying because there came New Childs who wants to Play their Game.
Yes join OPvP Channel... The only Thing you get there are False Tips of the Old, Big PvP Fleets and Flaming and trolling between those Fleets because One Fleet says to the other 'you guys are using op Consoles, exploits, hax or other Bad Things', and Visa Verse.
No One of them has a Real Interest in train new Players in Teamplay or help them in skilling their Chars. If you say so... Then post your real Builds and not the fake One for the Public.
And most Important... Do a fair Play. Don't kill the newbies at the Spawn Point, don't let them face a premade Team, integrate them and offer some new Players to join your Team and TS to learn from you how to be a Good PvP Player.
Then the PvP Community will grow and there will be good Players you can fight with.
Oh, i forgot, there is the PvP BootCamp...
Do One of you Guys really the new Players trust their Coaches after reading the Discussions in OPvP Channel or this Forum? Just kiding, i am sure that all Information you get there is not really false but incomplete. They have no Interest in training equal skilled Players because they will loose their 'God Father' Image if they could not kill you with One Attack.
That's all my expirience i had after joining OPvP and doing the BootCamp.
i am deeply saddened we have never crossed paths in game (minimax@emoejoe speaking here). It has been my in game duty to work against exactly what you have just described. The righteous path of bringing people into the fold I walk every day. And i dont say "my way or the highway" i say "whatever floats your boat, whatever works".
A Real damned shame that someone was able to come away from opvp and bootcamp, both great entities in their own rights, with such a negative experience. I implore you to try again.
Join my random pug tournament, catering specifically to individuals who seek a FAIR play and a higher game, without pre-coordinated lock-win strategies. And remember you have friends out there, cloaked, waiting to deliver a glorious battle to those willing to engage. Raise up arms and ready yourself for the arena! I pray to the PVP gods your enemies will be worthy!!!!!
//there are dozens of fleets with open teamspeaks and generous by the way of information and time to pvpers. we need to be doing more of that and less arguing about op in the opvp chat. As one of the long time moderators of that chat channel (3 years+) I will do my solemn duty to refocus the energy of the chat into a more constructive direction.
we already fought together, side by side and on the other side and ist was a pleasure to fight with you. But what i said came out of the deep of my heard. I am in PvP as Sci Healer and i have no Problem to get out 6 Mio healing in a normal Match. I also had very good experience with BootCamp, but i saw many Coaches who did Things in PvP that are against all rules of Fair Play and not possible with any non exploit using Build in Game.
We are also a Fleet that is Open to others and we teach our Members and our Guests all we know and we go into Matches with them to show, that not the Equipment is the important Thing in PvP but the Team.
So i hope that the Future will bring us back on the right Way so we have good random, pugmade and premade Matches.
And i completed my Mission to wake up some important guys in PvP BootCamp to tell them the thoughts of many Newbies and rejoining Members.
Them remeber! A Noob is a Newbie that is not willing to learn.
You and I were agreeing here right up until the last line where you suddenly lumped everyone who plays as "premades" and their behavior into one unified mass.
But I wasn't lumping everybody together.
"There's...and then there's..."
I split them. It's just the simple if that PUG guy out there should look for a team to join, the Premade guy should look for a team to fight. Not a case that either should stop/not queue if they don't, but if one should look - the other should look. There's the Premades that look and there's the Premades that don't look (the latter based solely on attitude displayed by some in OPvP and in threads such as this - not there looking over their shoulders and don't know if they looked outside of OPvP).
It's like other things I've said about attitude, doing certain things while in the queue, etc, etc, etc.
It's not an "All Premades are Evil...expletive laden nonsensical rant!"...there are plenty of those that take place. There's...andd then there's.... Not all Premades are the same - it's not a case of lumping them together. Just because X & Y might be complete douches, doesn't mean that A & B are...
That's part of the whole if X & Y were more like A & B, then we as players could do more where it looks like Cryptic won't - as far as helping PvP.
See...here's an example of that lumping everybody together thing...
Yes join OPvP Channel... The only Thing you get there are False Tips of the Old, Big PvP Fleets and Flaming and trolling between those Fleets because One Fleet says to the other 'you guys are using op Consoles, exploits, hax or other Bad Things', and Visa Verse.
No One of them has a Real Interest in train new Players in Teamplay or help them in skilling their Chars. If you say so... Then post your real Builds and not the fake One for the Public.
And most Important... Do a fair Play. Don't kill the newbies at the Spawn Point, don't let them face a premade Team, integrate them and offer some new Players to join your Team and TS to learn from you how to be a Good PvP Player.
Then the PvP Community will grow and there will be good Players you can fight with.
...makes me reach for the Excedrin from the /facepalm.
I have no problem with what he said. It's one of the better ways to fight feature creep which can kill projects.
I think we may be looking at it from different angles. You see it as a way to stop feature creep, a very valid point in managing and controlling costs and meeting release dates. I see it as them failing to get a basic working product out the door. I feel their efforts to control costs/resources leads to us ending up with a game that is below what it should be, even given their limited resources.
I get the feeling a lot more waste is going on than we know. I wonder just how many projects they stop halfway through and then drop for whatever reason? I also wonder if those resources mightn't have been better spent fixing bugs, or adding a pug only queue? These are just feelings I get based on personal experiences running factories and designing, marketing, and delivering new products.
we already fought together, side by side and on the other side and ist was a pleasure to fight with you. But what i said came out of the deep of my heard. I am in PvP as Sci Healer and i have no Problem to get out 6 Mio healing in a normal Match. I also had very good experience with BootCamp, but i saw many Coaches who did Things in PvP that are against all rules of Fair Play and not possible with any non exploit using Build in Game.
We are also a Fleet that is Open to others and we teach our Members and our Guests all we know and we go into Matches with them to show, that not the Equipment is the important Thing in PvP but the Team.
So i hope that the Future will bring us back on the right Way so we have good random, pugmade and premade Matches.
And i completed my Mission to wake up some important guys in PvP BootCamp to tell them the thoughts of many Newbies and rejoining Members.
Them remeber! A Noob is a Newbie that is not willing to learn.
And we all are no Noobs, i hope
What fleet are you in and what's your @handle? Maybe we (Nova Core) could get something going against you guys if you're interested.
Well, you wait for 20 minutes to get in.
You see the enemy team, oh look, its 5 m?bius ships with all the p2w consoles fitted, they then proceed to throw so much sh*t out that the game just fails to render most of if it, 5 ships, 5 warp plasmas not rendering.
Its pathetic, its not even a match.
We know about their whiteboard.
We know about their starting things and cutting things.
They've told us that - so we know there is a bunch of that which does happen.
That's normal though for something like this - it's not that clearcut/cleancut.
Having a whiteboard of things they want to do is fine, the problem lies in management setting off people in too many directions and to few of those things panning out. Basically they are still in the "throw @#$% at the wall and see what sticks", hoping to find the golden bullet that will both draw in new crowds and keep longtime whales happy.
I would prefer they used up resources on fewer possibilities but brought more to fruition. What good is them working on 20 projects if only 1 is ever implemented and even then its implemented as incomplete. The guys in charge need to pick less projects for people to work on but finish more of them.
This is all speculation on my part of course, but that is the feeling I get. In my own work experience spreading resources too thin leads to delivering incomplete products, which is what we see Cryptic do. We don't need to look very far to see this happening, wrong textures and models are the easiest to spot, all it would take is someone at Cryptic taking the time to see that it looks right. They don't even have time to do that.
A pair of personal pet peeve examples:
1) The textures on the Mobius are at awkward scales and end up looking off on teh wing edges on the veteran skin, the dot patterns are to different scales on different parts of it. When using the numbered fed skins they end up looking too grainy and bumpy because the scaling is set too high. But perhaps this is too nitpicky, its an art asset issue that the ARTISTS presumably missed, but the next one is just too egregious.
2) From the moment I got them months ago to a few days ago when I last bothered to check the KDF Elite Fleet Dual Disruptor Pistols were still using the sniper riffle model. Yep, when you use the pistols it looks like you're wielding dual sniper riffles, one in each hand.
3) Lets not talk about art issues. A good friend of mine has been unable to get Jem'Hadar fighters from the Dil store for a VERY long time. This was proclaimed as fixed in a patch note if memory serves, yet still this bug persists.
These are all really easy things to spot, if there was someone actually bothering to look at things ONCE, just one time, after they are finished before releasing it. That they can't do that points to a vast discrepancy between what they should be able to do and what they are actually doing, hence why I suspect they are still trying to split their resources in too many ways, trying to find the magic bullet...
Does no one else see the irony in what's killing PvP (not 100% fault but a good chunk of the reason)?
Its premades.
The premades who go in and use every single bit cheese they can find, every console deemed OP, every broken doff when combined with a skill.
Stuff that is against the rules to use in league tables but they will quite happily use it in multiples against a pug group.
More scrambles than you can clear, more temporal inversions than you can shake a stick at.
Multiple cloaking tractor mines, nukura mines, the list goes on. Stuff that's not allowed in league matches.
I know a lot of hardcore PvP players that have just given up now, they can't be bothered.
If they can't be bothered with the levels of spam and broken being used, why should a casual pug or even a casual team?
Some of do it to try and get a little bit of fun out of the game but frankly it seems some are more entitled than others.
The other factor is people just don't want to respec or learn new techniques, they are happy with PvE.
Someone said a couple of days ago (yes, a premade) that its out fault because we don't join a PvP fleet!!!!
Um that's my choice thanks, I've dropped enough into MY fleet already, why should I quit it just so I can have a handful of 'decent' PvPs a day?
Which won't be decent because it will be from the stomping side, that's not fun in the slightest, from either side.
Does no one else see the irony in what's killing PvP (not 100% fault but a good chunk of the reason)?
Its premades.
The premades who go in and use every single bit cheese they can find, every console deemed OP, every broken doff when combined with a skill.
Stuff that is against the rules to use in league tables but they will quite happily use it in multiples against a pug group.
More scrambles than you can clear, more temporal inversions than you can shake a stick at.
Multiple cloaking tractor mines, nukura mines, the list goes on. Stuff that's not allowed in league matches.
I know a lot of hardcore PvP players that have just given up now, they can't be bothered.
If they can't be bothered with the levels of spam and broken being used, why should a casual pug or even a casual team?
Some of do it to try and get a little bit of fun out of the game but frankly it seems some are more entitled than others.
The other factor is people just don't want to respec or learn new techniques, they are happy with PvE.
Someone said a couple of days ago (yes, a premade) that its out fault because we don't join a PvP fleet!!!!
Um that's my choice thanks, I've dropped enough into MY fleet already, why should I quit it just so I can have a handful of 'decent' PvPs a day?
Which won't be decent because it will be from the stomping side, that's not fun in the slightest, from either side.
No, the irony is that the devs don't give a **** about pvp.
They just need to remove it from the game already. To many people ***** about it premades and people like you alike.
Does no one else see the irony in what's killing PvP (not 100% fault but a good chunk of the reason)?
I've got a conspiracy theory for folks.
It's odd, because many of the folks we know - hold back on that stuff - yet, there's always those groups out there that are. Can't name and shame those groups by any means - yet, are they vocal members of the community - whether on the forums or in OPvP? Or are they mystery groups that always just seem to be out there, eh?
Is Cryptic secretly paying them off to kill off PvP? Muahahahahaha...ahem...muahahahahahaha....
Comments
There's a step there...that not everybody takes.
Which was kind of the point...
The difficulty of organizing 10 people into a game is exponentially more difficult than organizing 5. The reason the 5 man team exists at all is because those 5 people have managed to synchronize their schedules sufficiently such that they manage to have an overlapping window in which they can all drill and fight at that time, since otherwise there is no team. If a different 5-man team exists, that happens to have a different fight window, these two teams cannot fight each other because they would never be able to muster simultaneously. So what you're effectively asking is that people somehow form a *10* man team of synchronized scheduling. This is orders of magnitude more difficult than a 5 man team.
You're asking them to spend their time organizing their enemies. People who are intrinsically hostile to them and everything they stand for. Aside from the fact that getting your hated enemies to listen to you is basically impossible, there is no reason why they should even consider this their responsibility.
I point out that while people often propose such things, they rarely, if ever, actually end up happening, and when they do, are little more than ad-hoc trainwrecks with little or no semblance of order and organization, and are hardly premade units doing battle against each other. They are, by no means, organized teams of hated enemies that have somehow managed to find each other through the mess of incompatible schedules so that they can crush the other one.
Because let's be honest: Your friends barely listen to you. Your enemies sure as hell won't.
I have no problem with what he said. It's one of the better ways to fight feature creep which can kill projects.
Admittedly I didn't read the rest...my apologies for that, but you're missing my point in regard to this.
You're not organizing 10 people. You're organizing 5 people. You've ALREADY organized 5. You only have to organize 5 more. If you can't organize 5 people, how can they organize 5 people? So how can you blame them for something you can't do either?
I actually agree with this to a certain extent. Fleets/teams/pugmades/premades should ask around first, but there's not always another team on or maybe the person doesn't have a ton of contacts. I suppose I'm fortunate because I have made a decent number of contacts with different fleets and I do arrange matches on the fly on a nightly basis. I can't always get one, but many times a week I will play in premade vs. premade. The other times I hit the queues either by myself or with anywhere from 1 to 4 teammates. Also, I arrange weekly matches for my fleet to fight against other fleets. So yes, I agree, more people should do this, and it's not really that difficult once you play with some people.
"Hey, does your fleet want to fight against us?"
"Let me see."
"Ok, just let me know."
"Yeah, we've got a team on."
"Alright, I'll invite you."
That's about it. It's not too hard and more people should do it. I do it all the time, whether on a whim or to schedule a match a week away. There has been maybe one or two times that another fleet has asked me if I have a team to play against them and that needs to happen a lot more often. People need to take the initiative more.
Consider this an Open Invite for any fleet or team to challenge Nova Core to a match whenever anyone has a team on. My handle is in my sig on every post. Feel free to mail me or PM me if I'm on when you are and we can arrange a match for that night, tomorrow, or next week. See you in the que...err, wait :x
@DevolvedOne
Okay, I read this part too...and I took some Excedrin.
Dude, it's a game...you're acting like it's a case of Group A just bombed where Group B lives, killing their parents and children, and then trying to get them to play a game of basketball.
Seriously, it's a game...some folks are taking PvP in STO way too seriously.
And yeah, the responsibility thing - no, players like that will never accept any responsibility for the adverse affect they have on the community...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g5Hz17C4is
I agree and disagree. Yes, that's kinda how it is. But if more casual players were in the queues then it would mean the chances of coming up against another bunch of casual players would be far far greater than they are now. Take the PvE queues as the perfect example on how that works. With the current mechanics, the best way to make pvp accessible to casual players is for casual players to access it en masse.
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
That's part of the thing where I'm walking that line between the sides. Yes, the PUG folks if they're having issues with teams stomping them - they need to take initiative. Likewise though, they're not the only side that should be taking some initiative.
Premades take initiative.
PUGmades take initiative.
Folks that PUG take initiative.
Maybe I'm delusional, but I see those as steps that players can take to improve things.
I haven't been arguing in this thread for Premades to have a separate queue - I've argued against the separate queue thing. I haven't been arguing for Premades not to join the queues.
I'm just saying that maybe if they look first to see if there is another team out there or if anybody wants to put together a team to fight them, then not only will it cut down on some of the complaints from the PUG folks out there - but that the team will likely also find a better match. They're not going to get better practicing against the dregs - to get better, you need to be challenged - etc, etc, etc.
The other thing is simply not rubbing it in their faces if there isn't another team out there and they end up in the queues...
I want the community to grow - like I said in that other thread, not because I'm some hippy feel the love guy...I just want Cryptic to see how many folks are into PvP, see that it is worth the investment, and fix all the damn TRIBBLE. It's an extremely selfish reason.
If folks keep driving folks off or folks give up...well, that doesn't help me.
So yeah, I'm potentially going to TRIBBLE off both sides...going to tell the PUG folks that sometimes they're going to need to HTFU and the Premade folks that sometimes they're going to need to STFU.
Damn it, I want Cryptic to take an interest in PvP - invest in it - fix TRIBBLE - and wah, wah, wah - yeah, my own little whining thing...meh, I need a smoke.
Dude, what are you talking about? This isn't the TRIBBLE trying to invade Great Britain. It's a videogame. We're all friends here...or at least there should be no reason to be "hated enemies." I will fight against one team, and then invite someone from that same team later that night to team up with my team. If you want to organize a match then obviously you're going to have to discuss it with "your hated enemy."
They'll listen, but first you must say something.
@DevolvedOne
110% Agree. It is common place that copmanies need to balance the need/want of the customer, vs long term strategic goals, vs the differing needs/wants of other customer segments. Believe it or not there are things called Risk Mitigation meetings that analyze the risk of implementing a particular idea, and whether or not the benefit outweighs the risk.
To be honest, I love that response, and applaud his courage for posting it in the forums (i had never seen that post), and in these forums I'm surprised there wasn't a news story about people marching on the Cryptic office with Torches and Pitchforks. Is it OK that customers request features, absolutely... but is the company required to implement all suggestions, absolutely not.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Part 1 is what you see in the queues most of the time, at least for my fleet.
5 guys who happened to be online and have the time for pew pew. Sometimes it's only 3 guys, or only 2.
If we know there is another fleet team in the queues, we'll actually think about what ships and captains we're bringing.
Part 2 has it's own complications.
Aside from all of the inter-fleet drama, there is the fact that when you do in fact set up a "real" 5v5 challenge match you are now tasked with bringing a solid team setup - no one wants to lose, and yes this is where fleet v fleet ego's sometimes get involved.
Case in point: The nice folks over at Lag (Hi Reg!) have tried to get a match going with SP for over a week now. Due to RL stuff and the realities of time zone issues affecting scheduling it still hasn't happened.
We're hoping to get that match going tonight, finally.
The queues? The queues are always there and open to everyone.
So when people want to get their daily pewpew on, the only thing the guys in my fleet actually care about in STO, that's what they do.
PvE is an end to a means, PvP is the goal. Outside of some of the newer Pandas, most of the guys in my fleet only play this game for PvP.
You and I were agreeing here right up until the last line where you suddenly lumped everyone who plays as "premades" and their behavior into one unified mass.
Hopping into the queue doesn't require scheduling.
It requires yourself + anyone else who happens to be around.
That's exactly what I'm advising others to do.
Pretty much this.
1) You're organizing 5 of your own people and trying to get someone else to organize 5 players who are not in your fleet. You're actually thinking about team comp, probably bringing your best geared character, you're thinking about a strategy based on who you might be up against and what they tend/like to run.
2) I suggested that other players try to make a few friends to play with, they don't necessarily have to always be a 5 man team. We do that as well, we hop in the queues with our friends and fleet-mates but we don't always have 5 and its most certainly not "a premade" set up.
I.R.W. Raptor's Claw
Storm Eagle Class Warbird Fleet Ha'feh
I have never trusted humans, and I never will
Yes join OPvP Channel... The only Thing you get there are False Tips of the Old, Big PvP Fleets and Flaming and trolling between those Fleets because One Fleet says to the other 'you guys are using op Consoles, exploits, hax or other Bad Things', and Visa Verse.
No One of them has a Real Interest in train new Players in Teamplay or help them in skilling their Chars. If you say so... Then post your real Builds and not the fake One for the Public.
And most Important... Do a fair Play. Don't kill the newbies at the Spawn Point, don't let them face a premade Team, integrate them and offer some new Players to join your Team and TS to learn from you how to be a Good PvP Player.
Then the PvP Community will grow and there will be good Players you can fight with.
Oh, i forgot, there is the PvP BootCamp...
Do One of you Guys really the new Players trust their Coaches after reading the Discussions in OPvP Channel or this Forum? Just kiding, i am sure that all Information you get there is not really false but incomplete. They have no Interest in training equal skilled Players because they will loose their 'God Father' Image if they could not kill you with One Attack.
That's all my expirience i had after joining OPvP and doing the BootCamp.
What we need is bait for cats, that get other cats to come play
Maybe something like a reward for reclaiming the starbase for your faction. Have to consider possible exploits too, like switching between factions and claiming the reward over and over.
wow u mad bro? sound like someone lacks a prom date.
Opvp have helped me many times over. The fact that some fleets like to keep their builds a tightly knit secret has little to do with opvp.
As for boot camp you accusations are way off. We collectively decided to focus on the basic mechanics this game was designed around, instead of wasting time on broken mechanics and how to make the most of the latest exploits, before they are fixed.
Despite all this: we encouraged people to make the most of what they wanted to fly in/ with. If you had 3 broken ultra rare doofs, and some lobi consoles to accompany them, we would work with that. Its just not a very beginner friendly starting point. No conspiracy to hold people back.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Well, I'm sorry that you didn't have a positive experience with Boot Camp. I was a student there, and a lot of what was covered (especially in sessions 2 and 3) were very, very helpful. Even the players who I coach have said that the first two sessions we have covered so far have been extremely helpful.
Do I trust my (fellow) coaches? Absolutely. They know what they're doing, and while not every coach may be the best player in every PvP scenario, every class, etc etc etc, they do know enough to pass the information onwards so each student can go and build upon the foundation themselves.
Is the info incomplete? Probably, since the coaches aren't paid professionals and have decades of training. They are taking the time to share their first-hand experience and tips with you, so you can grow and expand your own abilities, knowledge and experience. As for "no interest", if they really had no interest, they wouldn't be signing up to take two, three hours out of their day to coach new players, for free and with very little rewards from Cryptic. And as for "one attack", then I don't believe you have completely grasped Boot Camp's goal: to teach players how to be effective in PvP, not only by themselves but in a teamed setting as well - which, in a team setting, PewPew isn't the only important thing. Subnucs, team healing, movement disables, etc are also important as well.
In regards to fair play in general. It's my own moral code not to spawncamp, pick on new inexperienced players too often, etc, and I try and instill those values as much as possible. However, humans are humans, and some will inevitably view some or all of the points you discussed as "OK" to do. Yeah, it's not fair, but at least some of us are trying actively to make sure that the numbers are low.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Thanks Havam.
Boot Camp has always been about fair play and encouraging people to play together and supporting one another.
That there is even a single person that believes otherwise, only demonstrates we need to focus our efforts and push on.
i am deeply saddened we have never crossed paths in game (minimax@emoejoe speaking here). It has been my in game duty to work against exactly what you have just described. The righteous path of bringing people into the fold I walk every day. And i dont say "my way or the highway" i say "whatever floats your boat, whatever works".
A Real damned shame that someone was able to come away from opvp and bootcamp, both great entities in their own rights, with such a negative experience. I implore you to try again.
Join my random pug tournament, catering specifically to individuals who seek a FAIR play and a higher game, without pre-coordinated lock-win strategies. And remember you have friends out there, cloaked, waiting to deliver a glorious battle to those willing to engage. Raise up arms and ready yourself for the arena! I pray to the PVP gods your enemies will be worthy!!!!!
//there are dozens of fleets with open teamspeaks and generous by the way of information and time to pvpers. we need to be doing more of that and less arguing about op in the opvp chat. As one of the long time moderators of that chat channel (3 years+) I will do my solemn duty to refocus the energy of the chat into a more constructive direction.
we already fought together, side by side and on the other side and ist was a pleasure to fight with you. But what i said came out of the deep of my heard. I am in PvP as Sci Healer and i have no Problem to get out 6 Mio healing in a normal Match. I also had very good experience with BootCamp, but i saw many Coaches who did Things in PvP that are against all rules of Fair Play and not possible with any non exploit using Build in Game.
We are also a Fleet that is Open to others and we teach our Members and our Guests all we know and we go into Matches with them to show, that not the Equipment is the important Thing in PvP but the Team.
So i hope that the Future will bring us back on the right Way so we have good random, pugmade and premade Matches.
And i completed my Mission to wake up some important guys in PvP BootCamp to tell them the thoughts of many Newbies and rejoining Members.
Them remeber! A Noob is a Newbie that is not willing to learn.
And we all are no Noobs, i hope
But I wasn't lumping everybody together.
"There's...and then there's..."
I split them. It's just the simple if that PUG guy out there should look for a team to join, the Premade guy should look for a team to fight. Not a case that either should stop/not queue if they don't, but if one should look - the other should look. There's the Premades that look and there's the Premades that don't look (the latter based solely on attitude displayed by some in OPvP and in threads such as this - not there looking over their shoulders and don't know if they looked outside of OPvP).
It's like other things I've said about attitude, doing certain things while in the queue, etc, etc, etc.
It's not an "All Premades are Evil...expletive laden nonsensical rant!"...there are plenty of those that take place. There's...andd then there's.... Not all Premades are the same - it's not a case of lumping them together. Just because X & Y might be complete douches, doesn't mean that A & B are...
That's part of the whole if X & Y were more like A & B, then we as players could do more where it looks like Cryptic won't - as far as helping PvP.
See...here's an example of that lumping everybody together thing...
...makes me reach for the Excedrin from the /facepalm.
I think we may be looking at it from different angles. You see it as a way to stop feature creep, a very valid point in managing and controlling costs and meeting release dates. I see it as them failing to get a basic working product out the door. I feel their efforts to control costs/resources leads to us ending up with a game that is below what it should be, even given their limited resources.
I get the feeling a lot more waste is going on than we know. I wonder just how many projects they stop halfway through and then drop for whatever reason? I also wonder if those resources mightn't have been better spent fixing bugs, or adding a pug only queue? These are just feelings I get based on personal experiences running factories and designing, marketing, and delivering new products.
We know about their whiteboard.
We know about their starting things and cutting things.
They've told us that - so we know there is a bunch of that which does happen.
That's normal though for something like this - it's not that clearcut/cleancut.
@DevolvedOne
Well, you wait for 20 minutes to get in.
You see the enemy team, oh look, its 5 m?bius ships with all the p2w consoles fitted, they then proceed to throw so much sh*t out that the game just fails to render most of if it, 5 ships, 5 warp plasmas not rendering.
Its pathetic, its not even a match.
Having a whiteboard of things they want to do is fine, the problem lies in management setting off people in too many directions and to few of those things panning out. Basically they are still in the "throw @#$% at the wall and see what sticks", hoping to find the golden bullet that will both draw in new crowds and keep longtime whales happy.
I would prefer they used up resources on fewer possibilities but brought more to fruition. What good is them working on 20 projects if only 1 is ever implemented and even then its implemented as incomplete. The guys in charge need to pick less projects for people to work on but finish more of them.
This is all speculation on my part of course, but that is the feeling I get. In my own work experience spreading resources too thin leads to delivering incomplete products, which is what we see Cryptic do. We don't need to look very far to see this happening, wrong textures and models are the easiest to spot, all it would take is someone at Cryptic taking the time to see that it looks right. They don't even have time to do that.
A pair of personal pet peeve examples:
1) The textures on the Mobius are at awkward scales and end up looking off on teh wing edges on the veteran skin, the dot patterns are to different scales on different parts of it. When using the numbered fed skins they end up looking too grainy and bumpy because the scaling is set too high. But perhaps this is too nitpicky, its an art asset issue that the ARTISTS presumably missed, but the next one is just too egregious.
2) From the moment I got them months ago to a few days ago when I last bothered to check the KDF Elite Fleet Dual Disruptor Pistols were still using the sniper riffle model. Yep, when you use the pistols it looks like you're wielding dual sniper riffles, one in each hand.
3) Lets not talk about art issues. A good friend of mine has been unable to get Jem'Hadar fighters from the Dil store for a VERY long time. This was proclaimed as fixed in a patch note if memory serves, yet still this bug persists.
These are all really easy things to spot, if there was someone actually bothering to look at things ONCE, just one time, after they are finished before releasing it. That they can't do that points to a vast discrepancy between what they should be able to do and what they are actually doing, hence why I suspect they are still trying to split their resources in too many ways, trying to find the magic bullet...
I believe that the solution is closer than you may think
Session 1
Session 2
Session 3
Session 4
These are just a synopsis, but if you need please shout and I will get you a more in depth breakdown.
See you on the Frontlines!
Its premades.
The premades who go in and use every single bit cheese they can find, every console deemed OP, every broken doff when combined with a skill.
Stuff that is against the rules to use in league tables but they will quite happily use it in multiples against a pug group.
More scrambles than you can clear, more temporal inversions than you can shake a stick at.
Multiple cloaking tractor mines, nukura mines, the list goes on. Stuff that's not allowed in league matches.
I know a lot of hardcore PvP players that have just given up now, they can't be bothered.
If they can't be bothered with the levels of spam and broken being used, why should a casual pug or even a casual team?
Some of do it to try and get a little bit of fun out of the game but frankly it seems some are more entitled than others.
The other factor is people just don't want to respec or learn new techniques, they are happy with PvE.
Someone said a couple of days ago (yes, a premade) that its out fault because we don't join a PvP fleet!!!!
Um that's my choice thanks, I've dropped enough into MY fleet already, why should I quit it just so I can have a handful of 'decent' PvPs a day?
Which won't be decent because it will be from the stomping side, that's not fun in the slightest, from either side.
No, the irony is that the devs don't give a **** about pvp.
They just need to remove it from the game already. To many people ***** about it premades and people like you alike.
Remove it= problem solved.
Do you even Science Bro?
I've got a conspiracy theory for folks.
It's odd, because many of the folks we know - hold back on that stuff - yet, there's always those groups out there that are. Can't name and shame those groups by any means - yet, are they vocal members of the community - whether on the forums or in OPvP? Or are they mystery groups that always just seem to be out there, eh?
Is Cryptic secretly paying them off to kill off PvP? Muahahahahaha...ahem...muahahahahahaha....