Jeez, we're still raging against players wanting to fly old ships? I find it pretty sad tbh, maybe I should start a post raging about all the non-starfleet ships that starfleet officers are flying around in now. If you don't want to fly an NX or a connie then don't, but please don't be so selfish as to rage against people just because they want something different than you. STO is a game where people fly whatever they want, hence why some of you guys are flying around in Tholian carriers and Elatchi Battleships. I hardly think at this point having TMP connies taking part in STF's is going to ruin the game experience for you... and if it does then you need help.
EDIT: Just pointing out this isn't aimed at the OP or anyone in particular. I'm just so sick to death of seeing the same old arguments why people are so against letting other people enjoy the game flying ships they love. The excelsior shouldn't be as powerful as the sovereign, but it is... having TMP era ships in the game won't hurt. Just let it go.
Those that are on a holy crusade can't let it go, assuming that they are not simply trolling.
They seem hellbent and determined that others should play the game according to their ideal.
If someone can show evidence of a modified Model T Ford with it still having the same frame performing just as well as a 21st Century car, then I would be convinced that a Tier 5 Miranda/NX/Constitution can work.
While I love the TOS/first 6 movie era Enterprise/Constitution Class ships more than anything, I don't think they have a place in the T5 up vessels. While making them a T5 can be done, the question is more "should it be done?" I find myself saying no to that. We have plenty of hulls out there already and should Cryptic ever get good at designing the appearance of ships, I would like to see more, new designs to move the game forward.
I agree, Cryptic has already gone too far by making the Excelsior more than on par with other T5 ship, even outgunning the GCS.
I'm sorry to say that but a T5 Constitution would be really too much.
BUT i am not against a newer Constitution styled ship, like the Excalibur being a T5 ship, but it should be a bit scaled up to make it a beliveable t5 ship IMO.
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Those that are on a holy crusade can't let it go, assuming that they are not simply trolling.
They seem hellbent and determined that others should play the game according to their ideal.
Once again, assuming they are not trolling.
Outside of "obvious trolls", the fact that this argument is still going on all these years later shows that inevitable escalation of arguments would approach "holy crusade" levels...
Heck, I've only been here like a year and a half, and I can post at holy crusade levels in support of the ToS Connie...
Also, I'll freely admit that, in a way, I want to play STO with "my" ideal, taking the ToS Connie hull into fleet alerts and STFs, and not be a drag on the team. For the record, while I'm not quite old enough to have seen ToS "first run", I am old enough to say I watched BSG-ToS and Gerard's Buck Rodgers while they were first run - and the only Trek in that era was Kirk's...
On that note, I can see "both" sides of the argument - yeah, the ToS Connie is, per lore, on the "old" side, but at the same time a "decent" portion of the playerbase grew up watching the NCC-1701-no bloody A,B,C,D,E,F,J,X,Z... :P Cigar Nacelles and all... :P
However, as I tend to prefer inclusion over exclusion, finding a way to insert the NX and ToS heroes would "benefit" the game in the long run more than the continued leaving of these ships out of the game. How many ENT or ToS fans have left the game or don't play as much because their hero ship isn't around - yet all the TNG fans are around claiming their T5 retrofits with 600 day veteran tokens?
I've posted quite a few times a way to fit the Connie and NX into the game, using existing patterns, that addresses a secondary issue - that of the Connie being a straight up equal to the Oddessy/Regent. To summarize, make the Connie a Sci ship...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
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The problem with this is, everyone expects their hero ships to do exactly that; be heroes. Imitate Kirk, imitate Picard, or Janeway, or Sisko or Worf, or Archer. But this game's lore is set in the 25th century. Ignoring the really cheap replies of "well this game's lore is broken", Cryptic can't have every ship from every era still eligible or even capable of qualifying as a hero ship.
There's a reason why these ships are hero ships. They are modern vessels with exceptional crews and an outstanding service record, as shown by their televised series. Nowhere in Trek is there a widely accepted hero crew/ship that is flying an outdated ship for its time.
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I honestly do believe we will see a T5 Connie at some point. Cryptic/PWE is in it to make money, they're a business after all. They know there is a number of folks who want it. And if it were say a lockbox there would be a lot more folks who'd want it and would sell it on the exchange for ec. CBS may be the obstacle, but attitudes change. I'm sure CBS wants the game to continue as they are getting something out of it. However, they are smart enough to realize if you give the players everything they want up front they'll burn through the game and move on. That's why I think we'll see it, though it may be a couple years off.
Now as far as would I like to see it in the game. Well it really wouldn't bother me at this point. Maybe in the beginning I was more about canon, but now not so much. I see all these non FED ships fling around with names like the TARDIS or Galactica. Just hang out in a social zone and sometimes you wonder what game your playing. We're all geeks here and if you want to fly around in the Enterprise as Capt. Kirk it doesn't bother my game play. Everyone should be able to come here and hang out and enjoy it the way they want to. If you don't like it you always can start an RP fleet and be as exclusive as you want.
I'd quite like to see Fleet version of these ships. It would add to the mix of ships observed in battle. Throughout Trek, you see a full range of ships, including Mirandas and Excelsiors participating in battles right through the Dominion War, and likely beyond.
Just look at other races, they have been using their designs for centuries, and there's no reason, with the ships upgraded with newer and newer tech, fed ships couldn't.
TThere's a reason why these ships are hero ships. They are modern vessels with exceptional crews and an outstanding service record, as shown by their televised series. Nowhere in Trek is there a widely accepted hero crew/ship that is flying an outdated ship for its time.
Picard was the captain of the Stagazer for 25 years. By his own description it was an underpowered and over worked ship. I'm sure he did many heroic things in that ship, things that got him to the captain's chair of the Enterprise D.
The problem with this is, everyone expects their hero ships to do exactly that; be heroes. Imitate Kirk, imitate Picard, or Janeway, or Sisko or Worf, or Archer. But this game's lore is set in the 25th century. Ignoring the really cheap replies of "well this game's lore is broken", Cryptic can't have every ship from every era still eligible or even capable of qualifying as a hero ship.
There's a reason why these ships are hero ships. They are modern vessels with exceptional crews and an outstanding service record, as shown by their televised series. Nowhere in Trek is there a widely accepted hero crew/ship that is flying an outdated ship for its time.
T5 Fleet Miranda. Let's see, make the model a little bigger so it doesn't look tiny compared to everything else. Fiddle with the stats a bit to bring it up to T5 level, add on some console slots and give it a fleet skin. Job done.
Most of the assets are already there, I don't believe making T5 versions of ships already in game would need lots of time - they could be doing this while they have a spare few hours in an afternoon.
I also don't see a problem with a fan of the franchise wanting to fly the ship they saw on TV or in the movies. How anyone could criticise any player wanting to fly a T5 Constitution class ship in a Star Trek game is beyond me.
T5 Fleet Miranda. Let's see, make the model a little bigger so it doesn't look tiny compared to everything else. Fiddle with the stats a bit to bring it up to T5 level, add on some console slots and give it a fleet skin. Job done.
Most of the assets are already there, I don't believe making T5 versions of ships already in game would need lots of time - they could be doing this while they have a spare few hours in an afternoon.
I also don't see a problem with a fan of the franchise wanting to fly the ship they saw on TV or in the movies. How anyone could criticise any player wanting to fly a T5 Constitution class ship in a Star Trek game is beyond me.
My question is this:
What would they offer that other ships right now don't (other than their appearance)?
What would they offer that other ships right now don't (other than their appearance)?
The Connie refit would be the lightest of light cruisers. It would likely have the best turn rate for a fed cruiser and the lowest HP. There are many potential console and boff combinations that could be used.
The fleet Miranda would be a similar to Klingon Bops, with balancing additions to make up for the cloak. Frigates are still used in most modern navies.
What would they offer that other ships right now don't (other than their appearance)?
For the vast majority of players in sto that do not pvp isn't appearance the primary reason for flying the class of ships we use?
There are people who choose to use cruisers and science ships in stfs even though it's more efficient to use an escort. Clearly they are doing it because they enjoy the aesthetics of those ships. Form over function.
What does a t5 miranda or constitution give a player? A sense of Star Trek satisifaction in that they are living out their geek fantasies. Isn't that what games are supposed to be about: playing through fantasies for fun?
I personally don't agree with the view that only top of the line ships classified as hero ships, or that technical realities had anything to do with the storytelling and indeed fun factor of the shows. Though I can see the logic behind the stance.
Take the NX-01. The most advanced ship in starfleet at the time its true, but it was inferior in every way to the vessels of most non human worlds, and far inferior to the ships of both vulcan and andoria (founding members of the federation itself). It was the crew, and the "spirit" so to speak, of the ship that made it a hero ship. Compared to the ships of the rest of the region, it was junk.
The same for Voyager. While it was one of the most advanced ships in starfleet, would it have had any real chance of surviving against even one Borg Tactical cube without "cheating" (that's not to speak of even more powerful vessels, like the Voth city ship)? Against the kinds of odds it was facing to get home, would it have mattered if they were in an Intrepid, Constitution or a Miranda? It still would have been a million to one shot. The fun was in the triumph over the odds.
Why shouldn't players be able to get T5, or even T4 Miranda's, Connies and such? Why not let those who want one captain what they want without being a burden on their team. I think CBS should let them live out their own personal Trek however they want. Thats the beauty of a video game, you can leave real life at the disk tray.
As someone who wouldnt actually buy a T5 Connie or Miranda, I can safely say it wouldnt hurt my immersion in any way to see the federation fielding upgraded Mirandas at a time when it is fighting a war on numerous fronts. Why wouldn't they?
In fact, I personally would have better immersion teaming up with Connies, Mirandas and such than stretching my mind around the feds using a whole fleet of Jem'Hadar, Cardassian, Ferengi, Elachi, Tal Shiar, Tholian, Voth (and most unbelievably, 29th C vessels. Which fell through from a mirror universe).
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The arguments saying the ships are out dated are irrelevant since it's called a "Retrofit" or "Refit" to show that it's been upgraded, sort of like how the Constitution Cruiser went to become the Heavy Cruiser in Star Trek the Motion Picture. The reasons that have been cited to me previously as to why there are no refits or retrofits of the those ships, but there are for the Tier 2 Escort and Science vessel has to do with contracts with CBS and Paramount who don't want those older iconic ships interfering with their newer film versions. Personally I wish they would release the versions like the Excaliber, or the Shikahr that are drastically different than the versions shown in the tv shows and movies.
The arguments saying the ships are out dated are irrelevant since it's called a "Retrofit" or "Refit" to show that it's been upgraded, sort of like how the Constitution Cruiser went to become the Heavy Cruiser in Star Trek the Motion Picture. The reasons that have been cited to me previously as to why there are no refits or retrofits of the those ships, but there are for the Tier 2 Escort and Science vessel has to do with contracts with CBS and Paramount who don't want those older iconic ships interfering with their newer film versions. Personally I wish they would release the versions like the Excaliber, or the Shikahr that are drastically different than the versions shown in the tv shows and movies.
You can only refit or retrofit a ship so much. Face it the connie while good is suprassed by the Excel. They remain in reserve should the Fed be in DIRE need of ships.
According to the ingame description, the Tier 1 NX has already been retrofitted. If they took the NX Enterprise in its original form, then it might be a Tier 0.1 ship. What is to say that the Miranda and TOS Constitution aren't already retrofitted as well? So it would make sense that with 2409 technology that Tier 1 is the best these ships can do. If they used 2509 technology, then these ships could be made into Tier 5 ships, but then they would still be Tier 1 ships for the Tier 5 ships of that era.
I made a thread about an idea where T1 ships could be used at endgame without them being made T5 ships. Somehow replies all got confused and was accusing me of suggesting T5 ships.
Basicly the idea was refit/retrofit T1.5 ships you could buy for zen and use in a special event. The ships would have BOFF layouts of a T5 ship only in a T1 ship making it T1.5, weapons, console, hull and all that would be T1. Have those ships restricted to special events like shuttles have or for solo missions. Normal T1 ships can join in the special events ofcourse but would be a serious disadvantage having T1 BOFF layout. Then T1 ships can be restricted from all normal queue's except maybe private events.
No thats not asking for T5 ships but it is asking for endgame content and litely updated T1 ships for endgame use. It has several good points. One, no more T5 Connie threads. Two, No more T1 ships in a public queue TRIBBLE over optionals or making the mission fail. Three, more variety in endgame content. Four, something else for cryptic to sell.
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You can only refit or retrofit a ship so much. Face it the connie while good is suprassed by the Excel. They remain in reserve should the Fed be in DIRE need of ships.
Why not though?
If the weapons, shields and warp cores can all be upgraded then they would perform roughly as well as another ship of that size/role (ie total weapon output, shield strength and maneuv, especially when you factor in that the crew would have significnt experience in that ship type and existing working relationships with each other.
Whilst I have no doubt that all new construct ships would be of modern designs rather than older designs, I still think that upgrading 100 old ships to standard X would be cheaper than building 100 new ships of standard X. Especially once you factor in crews inexperienced in the design and dealing with each other.
The only thing that might be affected I think is maximum warp speeds, which isn't that important anymore with the advent of the transwarp gates.
Not that any age related argument effects the Exter, Excalibur, ShiKahr, Centaur or Vesper. They are all far less than a century old iirc. In fact, the Centaur was shown to be a good match for the much vaunted JHAS in that episode of DS9 (can't remeber the name right now)
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Whilst I have no doubt that all new construct ships would be of modern designs rather than older designs, I still think that upgrading 100 old ships to standard X would be cheaper than building 100 new ships of standard X. Especially once you factor in crews inexperienced in the design and dealing with each other.
Actualy it is far more difficult and expensive to retrofit/refit anything to modern specs than it is to build all new. Take a car from the 30's for example, refiting it to use all modern engine, drivetrain, and instruments costs more than buying a new car and a ship is a complete different animal. Ships are built around the larger equipment on board such as engines and weapon systems. The ships have to be torn down before any new work can be done, once torn down any structure that will remain needs to be replaced if there is any age/stress weakness. then the structure has to begin being rebuilt to accomadate the new equipment before the new equipment can be added. All that takes as long or longer than just starting from scratch. This is why old ships are mothballed rather than endless retrofiting.
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Actualy it is far more difficult and expensive to retrofit/refit anything to modern specs than it is to build all new. Take a car from the 30's for example, refiting it to use all modern engine, drivetrain, and instruments costs more than buying a new car and a ship is a complete different animal. Ships are built around the larger equipment on board such as engines and weapon systems. The ships have to be torn down before any new work can be done, once torn down any structure that will remain needs to be replaced if there is any age/stress weakness. then the structure has to begin being rebuilt to accomadate the new equipment before the new equipment can be added. All that takes as long or longer than just starting from scratch. This is why old ships are mothballed rather than endless retrofiting.
^^ This. There's no way this could be written any more clearer.
That's quite the paradox, how could you nerf nerf when the nerf is nerfed. But how would the nerf be nerfed when the nerf is nerfed? This allows the nerf not to be nerfed since the nerf is nerfed? But if the nerf isn't nerfed, it could still nerf nerfs. But as soon as the nerf is nerfed, the nerf power is lost. So paradoxally it the nerf nerf lost its nerf, while it's still nerfed, which cannot be because the nerf was unable to nerf.
Actualy it is far more difficult and expensive to retrofit/refit anything to modern specs than it is to build all new. Take a car from the 30's for example, refiting it to use all modern engine, drivetrain, and instruments costs more than buying a new car and a ship is a complete different animal. Ships are built around the larger equipment on board such as engines and weapon systems. The ships have to be torn down before any new work can be done, once torn down any structure that will remain needs to be replaced if there is any age/stress weakness. then the structure has to begin being rebuilt to accomadate the new equipment before the new equipment can be added. All that takes as long or longer than just starting from scratch. This is why old ships are mothballed rather than endless retrofiting.
You are saying car for the 30s.you can refit a car from the 30 with modern day technology.
btw They made cars way better back then as they were stronger steel.I imagine that for Starships maybe.
you could say that if you ignored the last 2 decades of engine, gearbox, metalurgic technology leaps.
it more or less depends on what you want in a car. if you want durability and simplicity to make repairs by yourself easier then yes, old cars were better. If you on the other hand prefer performance, lower gas prices, comfort, ...i'd go with a modern day car.
there cannot be made any argument on how and why it is better or worse to refit an 100 year old ship...this is star trek and they simply want or don't want older ship types in the game.
Unfortunately they don't want those old ships in the game, sad, but that is how it is. no reason to come up with reasons that may be canon.
CBS doesn't want them as endgame ships, i don't agree with their reasoning, but they make the decissions.
T5 T'varo.
200~300 year old vessel. Predating even the NX-01.
While most of the argument about hull shell retrofitting is loose at best for continued service viability, Crytpic themselves have kicked their own loophole into the subject on two fronts.
The T'varo from centuries ago and the Time Ships from centuries ahead.
The T'varo's are doing perfectly fine despite their service age. And the Time Ships seems to be poorly lacking in any hull integrity sophistication despite being centuries ahead in tech. So the T'varo was retrofit with modern tech, and the Time Ships were gutted of future tech. Including it's hull? Questionable logic.
The logic of the argument has been moot for a long time. It comes down to "what Cryptic thinks will sell". Nothing more. Nothing less.
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However I agree with you, it wouldn't make much sense for those ships to be T5...
Those that are on a holy crusade can't let it go, assuming that they are not simply trolling.
They seem hellbent and determined that others should play the game according to their ideal.
Once again, assuming they are not trolling.
Nailed it, considering everything we've seen in game already it's pretty sad.
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I'm sorry to say that but a T5 Constitution would be really too much.
BUT i am not against a newer Constitution styled ship, like the Excalibur being a T5 ship, but it should be a bit scaled up to make it a beliveable t5 ship IMO.
Outside of "obvious trolls", the fact that this argument is still going on all these years later shows that inevitable escalation of arguments would approach "holy crusade" levels...
Heck, I've only been here like a year and a half, and I can post at holy crusade levels in support of the ToS Connie...
Also, I'll freely admit that, in a way, I want to play STO with "my" ideal, taking the ToS Connie hull into fleet alerts and STFs, and not be a drag on the team. For the record, while I'm not quite old enough to have seen ToS "first run", I am old enough to say I watched BSG-ToS and Gerard's Buck Rodgers while they were first run - and the only Trek in that era was Kirk's...
On that note, I can see "both" sides of the argument - yeah, the ToS Connie is, per lore, on the "old" side, but at the same time a "decent" portion of the playerbase grew up watching the NCC-1701-no bloody A,B,C,D,E,F,J,X,Z... :P Cigar Nacelles and all... :P
However, as I tend to prefer inclusion over exclusion, finding a way to insert the NX and ToS heroes would "benefit" the game in the long run more than the continued leaving of these ships out of the game. How many ENT or ToS fans have left the game or don't play as much because their hero ship isn't around - yet all the TNG fans are around claiming their T5 retrofits with 600 day veteran tokens?
I've posted quite a few times a way to fit the Connie and NX into the game, using existing patterns, that addresses a secondary issue - that of the Connie being a straight up equal to the Oddessy/Regent. To summarize, make the Connie a Sci ship...
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There's a reason why these ships are hero ships. They are modern vessels with exceptional crews and an outstanding service record, as shown by their televised series. Nowhere in Trek is there a widely accepted hero crew/ship that is flying an outdated ship for its time.
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Now as far as would I like to see it in the game. Well it really wouldn't bother me at this point. Maybe in the beginning I was more about canon, but now not so much. I see all these non FED ships fling around with names like the TARDIS or Galactica. Just hang out in a social zone and sometimes you wonder what game your playing. We're all geeks here and if you want to fly around in the Enterprise as Capt. Kirk it doesn't bother my game play. Everyone should be able to come here and hang out and enjoy it the way they want to. If you don't like it you always can start an RP fleet and be as exclusive as you want.
Just look at other races, they have been using their designs for centuries, and there's no reason, with the ships upgraded with newer and newer tech, fed ships couldn't.
Why is the broken lore observation cheap?
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T5 Fleet Miranda. Let's see, make the model a little bigger so it doesn't look tiny compared to everything else. Fiddle with the stats a bit to bring it up to T5 level, add on some console slots and give it a fleet skin. Job done.
Most of the assets are already there, I don't believe making T5 versions of ships already in game would need lots of time - they could be doing this while they have a spare few hours in an afternoon.
I also don't see a problem with a fan of the franchise wanting to fly the ship they saw on TV or in the movies. How anyone could criticise any player wanting to fly a T5 Constitution class ship in a Star Trek game is beyond me.
My question is this:
What would they offer that other ships right now don't (other than their appearance)?
The Connie refit would be the lightest of light cruisers. It would likely have the best turn rate for a fed cruiser and the lowest HP. There are many potential console and boff combinations that could be used.
The fleet Miranda would be a similar to Klingon Bops, with balancing additions to make up for the cloak. Frigates are still used in most modern navies.
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There are people who choose to use cruisers and science ships in stfs even though it's more efficient to use an escort. Clearly they are doing it because they enjoy the aesthetics of those ships. Form over function.
What does a t5 miranda or constitution give a player? A sense of Star Trek satisifaction in that they are living out their geek fantasies. Isn't that what games are supposed to be about: playing through fantasies for fun?
Other than appearance? Probably nothing. I'd see them as further alternate choices for those 200k fleet credit ships, like the T2 retrofits?
This is the Federation as the Miranda is a Fed ship done wrong along with the Const.
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Take the NX-01. The most advanced ship in starfleet at the time its true, but it was inferior in every way to the vessels of most non human worlds, and far inferior to the ships of both vulcan and andoria (founding members of the federation itself). It was the crew, and the "spirit" so to speak, of the ship that made it a hero ship. Compared to the ships of the rest of the region, it was junk.
The same for Voyager. While it was one of the most advanced ships in starfleet, would it have had any real chance of surviving against even one Borg Tactical cube without "cheating" (that's not to speak of even more powerful vessels, like the Voth city ship)? Against the kinds of odds it was facing to get home, would it have mattered if they were in an Intrepid, Constitution or a Miranda? It still would have been a million to one shot. The fun was in the triumph over the odds.
Why shouldn't players be able to get T5, or even T4 Miranda's, Connies and such? Why not let those who want one captain what they want without being a burden on their team. I think CBS should let them live out their own personal Trek however they want. Thats the beauty of a video game, you can leave real life at the disk tray.
As someone who wouldnt actually buy a T5 Connie or Miranda, I can safely say it wouldnt hurt my immersion in any way to see the federation fielding upgraded Mirandas at a time when it is fighting a war on numerous fronts. Why wouldn't they?
In fact, I personally would have better immersion teaming up with Connies, Mirandas and such than stretching my mind around the feds using a whole fleet of Jem'Hadar, Cardassian, Ferengi, Elachi, Tal Shiar, Tholian, Voth (and most unbelievably, 29th C vessels. Which fell through from a mirror universe).
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You can only refit or retrofit a ship so much. Face it the connie while good is suprassed by the Excel. They remain in reserve should the Fed be in DIRE need of ships.
Basicly the idea was refit/retrofit T1.5 ships you could buy for zen and use in a special event. The ships would have BOFF layouts of a T5 ship only in a T1 ship making it T1.5, weapons, console, hull and all that would be T1. Have those ships restricted to special events like shuttles have or for solo missions. Normal T1 ships can join in the special events ofcourse but would be a serious disadvantage having T1 BOFF layout. Then T1 ships can be restricted from all normal queue's except maybe private events.
No thats not asking for T5 ships but it is asking for endgame content and litely updated T1 ships for endgame use. It has several good points. One, no more T5 Connie threads. Two, No more T1 ships in a public queue TRIBBLE over optionals or making the mission fail. Three, more variety in endgame content. Four, something else for cryptic to sell.
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Why not though?
If the weapons, shields and warp cores can all be upgraded then they would perform roughly as well as another ship of that size/role (ie total weapon output, shield strength and maneuv, especially when you factor in that the crew would have significnt experience in that ship type and existing working relationships with each other.
Whilst I have no doubt that all new construct ships would be of modern designs rather than older designs, I still think that upgrading 100 old ships to standard X would be cheaper than building 100 new ships of standard X. Especially once you factor in crews inexperienced in the design and dealing with each other.
The only thing that might be affected I think is maximum warp speeds, which isn't that important anymore with the advent of the transwarp gates.
Not that any age related argument effects the Exter, Excalibur, ShiKahr, Centaur or Vesper. They are all far less than a century old iirc. In fact, the Centaur was shown to be a good match for the much vaunted JHAS in that episode of DS9 (can't remeber the name right now)
Then please fill out my dissertation survey on feline attachment, it'd be a massive help (-:
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/87XKSGH
Actualy it is far more difficult and expensive to retrofit/refit anything to modern specs than it is to build all new. Take a car from the 30's for example, refiting it to use all modern engine, drivetrain, and instruments costs more than buying a new car and a ship is a complete different animal. Ships are built around the larger equipment on board such as engines and weapon systems. The ships have to be torn down before any new work can be done, once torn down any structure that will remain needs to be replaced if there is any age/stress weakness. then the structure has to begin being rebuilt to accomadate the new equipment before the new equipment can be added. All that takes as long or longer than just starting from scratch. This is why old ships are mothballed rather than endless retrofiting.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
^^ This. There's no way this could be written any more clearer.
I call it, the Stoutes paradox.
You are saying car for the 30s.you can refit a car from the 30 with modern day technology.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=1932+ford+model+a+hotrod&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CRM0UvHqAoiZjALk4IHAAw&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1662&bih=868&dpr=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f0J-K1QKT0
btw They made cars way better back then as they were stronger steel.I imagine that for Starships maybe.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
you could say that if you ignored the last 2 decades of engine, gearbox, metalurgic technology leaps.
it more or less depends on what you want in a car. if you want durability and simplicity to make repairs by yourself easier then yes, old cars were better. If you on the other hand prefer performance, lower gas prices, comfort, ...i'd go with a modern day car.
there cannot be made any argument on how and why it is better or worse to refit an 100 year old ship...this is star trek and they simply want or don't want older ship types in the game.
Unfortunately they don't want those old ships in the game, sad, but that is how it is. no reason to come up with reasons that may be canon.
CBS doesn't want them as endgame ships, i don't agree with their reasoning, but they make the decissions.
200~300 year old vessel. Predating even the NX-01.
While most of the argument about hull shell retrofitting is loose at best for continued service viability, Crytpic themselves have kicked their own loophole into the subject on two fronts.
The T'varo from centuries ago and the Time Ships from centuries ahead.
The T'varo's are doing perfectly fine despite their service age. And the Time Ships seems to be poorly lacking in any hull integrity sophistication despite being centuries ahead in tech. So the T'varo was retrofit with modern tech, and the Time Ships were gutted of future tech. Including it's hull? Questionable logic.
The logic of the argument has been moot for a long time. It comes down to "what Cryptic thinks will sell". Nothing more. Nothing less.