not really.
dakka spam generic sci-fi game wearing a star trek skin in which the "ships" are treated as "fighters", with a player base full of people who call dealing with needless micro a skill...
hardly a surprise its going to attract a younger audience that will more appreciate call of starships, and are less likely to be old enough to appreciate tos over later "explosion TRIBBLE" sci-fi like voyager, with one of the most inconsistent narratives in recent scifi history.
even jjtrek avoids TRIBBLE up as badly as voyagers plot devices did.
Agreed. Each ship is supposed to represent something distinguishing and not just a "slap on skin". The Miranda? By modern times, an effectively useless ship.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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a ship derived from the soyuz? same deal and even better since it'd have those bit turrets.
I've always wondered how effective those Soyuz-class turrets would be. I don't recall any Federation vessel with turrets that size.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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if the kdf are anything to go by then pretty powerful.
in likelyhood the invention of the phaser array and starfleets desire to seem more peaceful got them ditched.
since to a layperson, a phaser array wouldn't appear as obviously military as a massive cannon sticking out of your ship.
That's true. Somewhere it was stated that the Soyuz class was retired, yet the Miranda class remains. Probably the ominous Mega-Turrets were too dangerous to wave around on the Klingon borders.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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devils dictionary.
thats not a cannon.... thats a, um, tool! its for... measuring!:D measuring territorial borders...:rolleyes:
LOL, it's just an oversized measuring tape holder!
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Soyuz was retired for the reason she was made for was no more. An example of too good of a job. Miranda is more general purpose while Soyuz is more Defiant like. Bozeman is an exception since her hull is still young so refitable.
I've seen a ton of threads being created and left to waste away. All of them are concerned about one of these ships which "should", "must" be in the game as a T5 variant.
Constitution-class Constitution-Refit Miranda-class Miranda-class (no rollbar) Miranda-class (no rollbar, sensor pods) Soyuz-class Oberth-class Exeter-class Vesper-class Excalibur-class NX-class NX-Refit
First off. This thread is the counter-argument hub for any thread that tries to "prove" that the above ships "should" be in the game. Anyone who posts here, does so to support the status quo of keeping these outdated ships out of the T5 list.
For all variants of the Constitution-class: CBS banned it. Which means, no matter how much you complain to the Devs, their hands are bound. Complain to CBS instead, you actually have a chance of succeeding there.
*EDIT: This only applies to the TOS Constitution (thanks Snoggy for clarification). Regardless, the ship is seriously underpowered compared to a Klingon Bird-of-Prey. No Constitution-class vessels were used in the Dominion War (the most recent Federation battle footage source).
As for Miranda-class and its subtypes, the ship is far too old to be actually useful. It was used as cannon fodder in the Dominion War. It was consistently damaged or playing a very minor role in fleets in The Next Generation. Even in The Wrath of Khan, where it debuted, it took significant damage from one phaser shot from a damaged Enterprise. Another phaser shot forced its retreat further into the nebula, and one final phaser shot crippled the ship and caused Khan to detonate the Genesis Device.
If a T5 version was made, I'd expect it to suck anyways - 2/2 weapon slots, and limited consoles. I continue to be baffled at why people insist that a 150-year old starship "should" be competitive with the Odyssey-class, or even the Galaxy-class.
As for the NX-class, that ship is even older. The design is likely too old - the equivalent of the Wright brothers' plane. Trying to strap jet engines, missiles, guidance... you'll fly the plane apart.
As for the Oberth, I haven't seen too many threads about this ship. But honestly, the ship wasn't even seen in DS9 battle scenes (after First Contact), and only appeared in select episodes of TNG to represent very weak ships, or old ships from another era.
It's ridiculous how some people just throw away the age of these outdated ships and consistently post new, repetitive threads about why their favorite ship from the 60's and 70's should be on a competitive level with even the Galaxy-class in this game. It's quite silly, really.
Don't disagree with you per se, but the Reliant took two photon torpedo hits you left out, one to the pod over the saucer section and one to a nacelle which blew it off the ship.
The answer is simple, yet won't be done. Cryptic should make another server for tier one and two players who want to start out in TOS ships. Then you can fill it up with other TOS ships like the Ptolemy's and Saladin's and when they make Lt Commander they are pulled into a anomaly like the USS Bozeman and appear in the 24th century and have access to the new ships.
That way everybody is happy. But it would never be done.
The answer is simple, yet won't be done. Cryptic should make another server for tier one and two players who want to start out in TOS ships. Then you can fill it up with other TOS ships like the Ptolemy's and Saladin's and when they make Lt Commander they are pulled into a anomaly like the USS Bozeman and appear in the 24th century and have access to the new ships.
That way everybody is happy. But it would never be done.
I can end this entire debate quickly and easily. The reason there SHOULD be a T5 Connie (NCC-1701 type... no bloody A, B, C OR D) is that it is, by far, the toughest and most effective ship Starfleet has ever sent to space... and THAT is canon. Allow me to elucidate... :cool:
Picard's ship was nice... bridge was laid out like a bank lobby (all you needed were some little pens on chains and Worf smiling behind that counter back of Picard's head asking "How can I help you today?") and the officer's quarters were like hotel suites. But it was a paper Tiger! I mean every time someone took a shot at them you've got sparks flying, gases spewing all over engineering, Geordi's calling up with a laundry list of things gone wrong... hell once they faced off against a couple of Romulan Warbirds who just tapped off a few low power pot shots to get his attention and Geordi's screaming that the power transfer fields are pinched off (HUH??) and they've actually suffered minor structural damage thru the shields! Sheeeeesh :rolleyes:
The Defiant was a grand little ship that packed a hell of a punch and was fairly tough... but any real licking and again you've got sparks flying, people dieing... gases spewing everywhere. They'd lose their shields almost every other battle. (you'd think if you lose something that often you'd put a leash on it).
Janeways ship was ALWAYS falling apart. Seemed like almost everyone in the Delta quadrant outgunned her. And the effectiveness of her weapons against any but the most primitive opponents was such that she might as well have thrown marshmallow's at them.
As for Archer's ship.... puhleese! He was outgunned by everyone he ever went up against. Rumor has it he was once chased by a Gorn teenager in a shuttle armed with a slingshot and it took him 3 weeks in drydock to make repairs. Trip was the only thing that kept that sagging old rustbucket from flying apart. :eek:
Kirk's Connie got hammered by the best and all it ever did was cause the bridge crew to sway dramatically from side to side or throw themselves around the bridge a bit. A desk bound book jockey of a Commodore once flew Kirk's ship into the Neutral Zone, got surrounded by enemy "wessels" and proceeded to get the ship POUNDED by warships determined to "waporize" it for the better part of 5 minutes and all it did was shake... there weren't even any serious casualties (once Kirk rescued 'em all, of course). Hell the ship once faced off against the Planet Killer and took a direct hit from a beam of pure anti-proton (absolutely pure!) and all it did was blow a few circuits! And the upgrade took V'Ger's best shot and the result was Sulu sitting there, grinning, saying, "The new shields held!". Obviously this was the toughest, most able ship design in Starfleet history... not to mention the fastest! (it was faster than all the later ships? ... I SAID not to mention that!)
SO... what happened? Why didn't they just keep that ship in the field if it was SO damn good?!
Well... that's bureaucrats for you.
OBVIOUSLY by the 24th Century we STILL won't have outgrown the primitive concept of "government" or realized that there is NOTHING a bureaucracy can't fudge up!
BUT STO can right this absurd wrong... waddaya say, guys and gals? WE WANT OUR T5 Connie's! It's the best ship there ever was! It's CANON!
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I can end this entire debate quickly and easily. The reason there SHOULD be a T5 Connie (NCC-1701 type... no bloody A, B, C OR D) is that it is, by far, the toughest and most effective ship Starfleet has ever sent to space... and THAT is canon. Allow me to elucidate... :cool:
Picard's ship was nice... bridge was laid out like a bank lobby (all you needed were some little pens on chains and Worf smiling behind that counter back of Picard's head asking "How can I help you today?") and the officer's quarters were like hotel suites. But it was a paper Tiger! I mean every time someone took a shot at them you've got sparks flying, gases spewing all over engineering, Geordi's calling up with a laundry list of things gone wrong... hell once they faced off against a couple of Romulan Warbirds who just tapped off a few low power pot shots to get his attention and Geordi's screaming that the power transfer fields are pinched off (HUH??) and they've actually suffered minor structural damage thru the shields! Sheeeeesh :rolleyes:
The Defiant was a grand little ship that packed a hell of a punch and was fairly tough... but any real licking and again you've got sparks flying, people dieing... gases spewing everywhere. They'd lose their shields almost every other battle. (you'd think if you lose something that often you'd put a leash on it).
Janeways ship was ALWAYS falling apart. Seemed like almost everyone in the Delta quadrant outgunned her. And the effectiveness of her weapons against any but the most primitive opponents was such that she might as well have thrown marshmallow's at them.
As for Archer's ship.... puhleese! He was outgunned by everyone he ever went up against. Rumor has it he was once chased by a Gorn teenager in a shuttle armed with a slingshot and it took him 3 weeks in drydock to make repairs. Trip was the only thing that kept that sagging old rustbucket from flying apart. :eek:
Kirk's Connie got hammered by the best and all it ever did was cause the bridge crew to sway dramatically from side to side or throw themselves around the bridge a bit. A desk bound book jockey of a Commodore once flew Kirk's ship into the Neutral Zone, got surrounded by enemy "wessels" and proceeded to get the ship POUNDED by warships determined to "waporize" it for the better part of 5 minutes and all it did was shake... there weren't even any serious casualties (once Kirk rescued 'em all, of course). Hell the ship once faced off against the Planet Killer and took a direct hit from a beam of pure anti-proton (absolutely pure!) and all it did was blow a few circuits! And the upgrade took V'Ger's best shot and the result was Sulu sitting there, grinning, saying, "The new shields held!". Obviously this was the toughest, most able ship design in Starfleet history... not to mention the fastest! (it was faster than all the later ships? ... I SAID not to mention that!)
SO... what happened? Why didn't they just keep that ship in the field if it was SO damn good?!
Well... that's bureaucrats for you.
OBVIOUSLY by the 24th Century we STILL won't have outgrown the primitive concept of "government" or realized that there is NOTHING a bureaucracy can't fudge up!
BUT STO can right this absurd wrong... waddaya say, guys and gals? WE WANT OUR T5 Connie's! It's the best ship there ever was! It's CANON!
Absolutely brilliant. Checkmate OP. bring on the retro retrofits lol.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I can end this entire debate quickly and easily. The reason there SHOULD be a T5 Connie (NCC-1701 type... no bloody A, B, C OR D) is that it is, by far, the toughest and most effective ship Starfleet has ever sent to space... and THAT is canon. Allow me to elucidate... :cool:
Picard's ship was nice... bridge was laid out like a bank lobby (all you needed were some little pens on chains and Worf smiling behind that counter back of Picard's head asking "How can I help you today?") and the officer's quarters were like hotel suites. But it was a paper Tiger! I mean every time someone took a shot at them you've got sparks flying, gases spewing all over engineering, Geordi's calling up with a laundry list of things gone wrong... hell once they faced off against a couple of Romulan Warbirds who just tapped off a few low power pot shots to get his attention and Geordi's screaming that the power transfer fields are pinched off (HUH??) and they've actually suffered minor structural damage thru the shields! Sheeeeesh :rolleyes:
The Defiant was a grand little ship that packed a hell of a punch and was fairly tough... but any real licking and again you've got sparks flying, people dieing... gases spewing everywhere. They'd lose their shields almost every other battle. (you'd think if you lose something that often you'd put a leash on it).
Janeways ship was ALWAYS falling apart. Seemed like almost everyone in the Delta quadrant outgunned her. And the effectiveness of her weapons against any but the most primitive opponents was such that she might as well have thrown marshmallow's at them.
As for Archer's ship.... puhleese! He was outgunned by everyone he ever went up against. Rumor has it he was once chased by a Gorn teenager in a shuttle armed with a slingshot and it took him 3 weeks in drydock to make repairs. Trip was the only thing that kept that sagging old rustbucket from flying apart. :eek:
Kirk's Connie got hammered by the best and all it ever did was cause the bridge crew to sway dramatically from side to side or throw themselves around the bridge a bit. A desk bound book jockey of a Commodore once flew Kirk's ship into the Neutral Zone, got surrounded by enemy "wessels" and proceeded to get the ship POUNDED by warships determined to "waporize" it for the better part of 5 minutes and all it did was shake... there weren't even any serious casualties (once Kirk rescued 'em all, of course). Hell the ship once faced off against the Planet Killer and took a direct hit from a beam of pure anti-proton (absolutely pure!) and all it did was blow a few circuits! And the upgrade took V'Ger's best shot and the result was Sulu sitting there, grinning, saying, "The new shields held!". Obviously this was the toughest, most able ship design in Starfleet history... not to mention the fastest! (it was faster than all the later ships? ... I SAID not to mention that!)
SO... what happened? Why didn't they just keep that ship in the field if it was SO damn good?!
Well... that's bureaucrats for you.
OBVIOUSLY by the 24th Century we STILL won't have outgrown the primitive concept of "government" or realized that there is NOTHING a bureaucracy can't fudge up!
BUT STO can right this absurd wrong... waddaya say, guys and gals? WE WANT OUR T5 Connie's! It's the best ship there ever was! It's CANON!
No Excel is for longer service life and useful ness, granted it's a connie on steroids but connie was not the best, it was second. but she is also for over a century, RETIRED FROM SERVICE.
I can end this entire debate quickly and easily. The reason there SHOULD be a T5 Connie (NCC-1701 type... no bloody A, B, C OR D) is that it is, by far, the toughest and most effective ship Starfleet has ever sent to space... and THAT is canon. Allow me to elucidate... :cool:
Picard's ship was nice... bridge was laid out like a bank lobby (all you needed were some little pens on chains and Worf smiling behind that counter back of Picard's head asking "How can I help you today?") and the officer's quarters were like hotel suites. But it was a paper Tiger! I mean every time someone took a shot at them you've got sparks flying, gases spewing all over engineering, Geordi's calling up with a laundry list of things gone wrong... hell once they faced off against a couple of Romulan Warbirds who just tapped off a few low power pot shots to get his attention and Geordi's screaming that the power transfer fields are pinched off (HUH??) and they've actually suffered minor structural damage thru the shields! Sheeeeesh :rolleyes:
The Defiant was a grand little ship that packed a hell of a punch and was fairly tough... but any real licking and again you've got sparks flying, people dieing... gases spewing everywhere. They'd lose their shields almost every other battle. (you'd think if you lose something that often you'd put a leash on it).
Janeways ship was ALWAYS falling apart. Seemed like almost everyone in the Delta quadrant outgunned her. And the effectiveness of her weapons against any but the most primitive opponents was such that she might as well have thrown marshmallow's at them.
As for Archer's ship.... puhleese! He was outgunned by everyone he ever went up against. Rumor has it he was once chased by a Gorn teenager in a shuttle armed with a slingshot and it took him 3 weeks in drydock to make repairs. Trip was the only thing that kept that sagging old rustbucket from flying apart. :eek:
Kirk's Connie got hammered by the best and all it ever did was cause the bridge crew to sway dramatically from side to side or throw themselves around the bridge a bit. A desk bound book jockey of a Commodore once flew Kirk's ship into the Neutral Zone, got surrounded by enemy "wessels" and proceeded to get the ship POUNDED by warships determined to "waporize" it for the better part of 5 minutes and all it did was shake... there weren't even any serious casualties (once Kirk rescued 'em all, of course). Hell the ship once faced off against the Planet Killer and took a direct hit from a beam of pure anti-proton (absolutely pure!) and all it did was blow a few circuits! And the upgrade took V'Ger's best shot and the result was Sulu sitting there, grinning, saying, "The new shields held!". Obviously this was the toughest, most able ship design in Starfleet history... not to mention the fastest! (it was faster than all the later ships? ... I SAID not to mention that!)
SO... what happened? Why didn't they just keep that ship in the field if it was SO damn good?!
Well... that's bureaucrats for you.
OBVIOUSLY by the 24th Century we STILL won't have outgrown the primitive concept of "government" or realized that there is NOTHING a bureaucracy can't fudge up!
BUT STO can right this absurd wrong... waddaya say, guys and gals? WE WANT OUR T5 Connie's! It's the best ship there ever was! It's CANON!
i for one have never liked the connie, but i'll take what you said. yes the D took a beating and it seemed to always be breaking down or needing maintenance, at least more then any other ship class in the fleet.
Voyager a science cruiser, never meant to be in battle or on that long of a distance journey would need constant repairs, especially after the damage it took from just getting to the delta quadrant, let alone the other advance alien races that seemed to only want to shoot first ask questions latter.
The Defiant a "tough little ship" as Picard put it in first contact, was just that a little ship, cannon fodder that was suppose to go in the first wave, soften the enemies front line and retreat, never suppose to be in a long duration of battle.
then the NX class, first warp five ship, only human made, no alien tech, of course it
would be weak, we did not know what to expect, at least every other race already seemed to have shielding, and hall plating combos, we did not get that until the formation of the united coalition of planets, what would one day be the united federation of plaints.
and last the super ugly flying saucer with a cylinder underneath, two sticks accompanied with two smaller cylinders that they call the connie, yes it's depicted as one of the strongest ships in the 23rd century, but that's it in the 24 it's not shown. i doubt that it could hold up to a 70 year voyage back home better then voyager, or take a d'd in single combat like the gal, or even last two seconds against a dominion bug ship, let alone a dreadnought. btw the connie need a full complement of crew in the ship or it would not go anywhere, while the Defiant can work of five,intrepid only needs it senior officers, and don't know haw many the gal needed, that alone would merit retiring her.
i'm up for a tier 5 Miranda, as long as you take the Miranda skin away from it, both the Centaur and the ShiKahr, nether are two old and can still be modified, one being a 24th cen ship and the other being a 25th cen ship, they both have potential. now you might say that there is a tier two conie refit that's new, yes i would support the refit but again take away the connie and connie original refit skins. now people will say that there are 22 cen ships flown by the rr and the klinks, but you have to think starfleet is about advancement not about sticking to a ship type because it's been used before and has succeeded in battle and it's other duties.
then you will say what about the excelsior class ship the nx-2000 came out in the end years of the connies involvement in star fleet, was the top of the line ship for a while, but was then depromoted to basically a pack mule for ambassadors and to fill up the fleet in time of war, they were not expected to last long in battle, her original life expectancy was 150 to 200 years compared to the connies 50. and she barley got that being most being taken out of service before they received their first refits, others just lasting two to five years after, and the refit was suppose to extended it by at least another 10 to 15 years.
face it the connies not as great as you think, yes the first show stared with it, it showed less damage, less smoke, but think of it this way, in the 60's they had less special effects they could use, and those that they could cost a lot of money, solution make a hero ship that can barely get damaged. i'm not trying to troll, it's just my two cents.
(...)
face it the connies not as great as you think, yes the first show stared with it, it showed less damage, less smoke, but think of it this way, in the 60's they had less special effects they could use, and those that they could cost a lot of money, solution make a hero ship that can barely get damaged. i'm not trying to troll, it's just my two cents.
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[X] You didn't get his joke
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I can end this entire debate quickly and easily. The reason there SHOULD be a T5 Connie (NCC-1701 type... no bloody A, B, C OR D) is that it is, by far, the toughest and most effective ship Starfleet has ever sent to space... and THAT is canon. Allow me to elucidate... :cool:
BUT STO can right this absurd wrong... waddaya say, guys and gals? WE WANT OUR T5 Connie's! It's the best ship there ever was! It's CANON!
The problem is they tried to make the shows vastly different, that the modern era of ships weren't indestructable super ships really dictates the method of Story Telling not the strength of ships.
Maybe modern weapons are just far more powerful.
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You make some excellent points OP, but I must say I dont agree.
I was always under the impression that starfleet ship designs were modular, for ease of upgrading. Besides, looking at the tech of the 24th/25th century, a lot of probably wouldnt be structural.
Upgrades to shields largely come in new emitters and more efficient distribution/frequencies etc. Similar sizes, just rip out and replace (or in the case of new frequnecy/patterns, just patch the software.
The main computers, if they follow real life, would get smaller and/or more powerful as time goes by. Again, remove and replace. Greater cpu power would lead to more automation, and therefore lead to smaller minimum crew size, meaning more space for cargo, troops/specialist personnel or upgrades, such as additional power generation.
Advances in torpedo technology were largely contained within the torpedoes themselves, and from what was seen on screen they stayed roughly the same size. Phaser strips seem to have a similar principle.
Surely the biggest investment would be in new power cores, though again the cores sot of a new core is surely not as high as the cost of a whole new hull. Heck, the cores are designed to be removed and replaced relatively quickly (how many times do we see voyager spit its core out at a moments notice?)
So even assuming that every system needed upgrading at a scheduled refit, it would still take less time and resources to bring an older ship up to par with a brand new vessel. In time of war (especially war on multiple fronts), I think Starfleet wouldnt want to see such blatant waste and breaking up experienced crews to serve on ships they arent as faimilar with.
Whats cheaper? A dozen hardware upgrades, various system tweaks and new hull armour, OR building an entirely new hull (with the same amount of new hardware), training its crew to a whole new ship and making sure.
A new hull would need the same amount of hardware, plus a whole new hull, design/testing time and training a new crew that is not familiar with the ship or each other. That is not to speak of amassing knowledge of the ships "quirks" and new software.
Since there haven't been any huge revolutions in starship design, (saucer, body, nacelle for big ships, with smaller ships having the nacelles tacked straight onto the sauce) I seriosuly doubt that a newer ship would have a huge advantage over an older one if the older one had been refitted with modern equipment, especially if the latter had a crew with many years of experience in that design (particularly since fleet engineers have had a lot longer to work out the kinks in the design of the older ships and squeeze out every last advantage).
I understand and accept there are probably holes in my point. But I for one would rather see truly Federation ships, even older ones or retrofits, around ESD than the ever increasing percentage of Borg,Tholian, Elachi and soon Voth vessels. Why not let people fly what they want, so long as its Trek?
I doubt itll happen, but I wish it would. People should be able to fly what they want without paying a huge performance penalty.
PS Any problem regarding age wouldnt apply to the Exeter and Centaur anyway.
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You make some excellent points OP, but I must say I dont agree.
I was always under the impression that starfleet ship designs were modular, for ease of upgrading. Besides, looking at the tech of the 24th/25th century, a lot of probably wouldnt be structural.
Upgrades to shields largely come in new emitters and more efficient distribution/frequencies etc. Similar sizes, just rip out and replace (or in the case of new frequnecy/patterns, just patch the software.
The main computers, if they follow real life, would get smaller and/or more powerful as time goes by. Again, remove and replace. Greater cpu power would lead to more automation, and therefore lead to smaller minimum crew size, meaning more space for cargo, troops/specialist personnel or upgrades, such as additional power generation.
Advances in torpedo technology were largely contained within the torpedoes themselves, and from what was seen on screen they stayed roughly the same size. Phaser strips seem to have a similar principle.
Surely the biggest investment would be in new power cores, though again the cores sot of a new core is surely not as high as the cost of a whole new hull. Heck, the cores are designed to be removed and replaced relatively quickly (how many times do we see voyager spit its core out at a moments notice?)
So even assuming that every system needed upgrading at a scheduled refit, it would still take less time and resources to bring an older ship up to par with a brand new vessel. In time of war (especially war on multiple fronts), I think Starfleet wouldnt want to see such blatant waste and breaking up experienced crews to serve on ships they arent as faimilar with.
Whats cheaper? A dozen hardware upgrades, various system tweaks and new hull armour, OR building an entirely new hull (with the same amount of new hardware), training its crew to a whole new ship and making sure.
A new hull would need the same amount of hardware, plus a whole new hull, design/testing time and training a new crew that is not familiar with the ship or each other. That is not to speak of amassing knowledge of the ships "quirks" and new software.
Since there haven't been any huge revolutions in starship design, (saucer, body, nacelle for big ships, with smaller ships having the nacelles tacked straight onto the sauce) I seriosuly doubt that a newer ship would have a huge advantage over an older one if the older one had been refitted with modern equipment, especially if the latter had a crew with many years of experience in that design (particularly since fleet engineers have had a lot longer to work out the kinks in the design of the older ships and squeeze out every last advantage).
I understand and accept there are probably holes in my point. But I for one would rather see truly Federation ships, even older ones or retrofits, around ESD than the ever increasing percentage of Borg,Tholian, Elachi and soon Voth vessels. Why not let people fly what they want, so long as its Trek?
I doubt itll happen, but I wish it would. People should be able to fly what they want without paying a huge performance penalty.
PS Any problem regarding age wouldnt apply to the Exeter and Centaur anyway.
you forget the fed always like to try new things. In truth the connie can be refitted for this era. However they have a better ship in place now. Excelsior. While the klinons are content with existing designs and only make a new one if the need to.
You make some excellent points OP, but I must say I dont agree.
*shortened to save space*
First off, I'd like to thank you for being polite and courteous. It's something that isn't seen very often around here, and I greatly appreciate it.
Your points around systems replacement time/resource cost versus manufacturing a new vessel do make sense, since you wouldn't need to manufacture a totally new hull for the ship. However, there are some concerns with favour newer vessels over the older ones:
Refitting. In order to replace major systems, the older systems have to be taken out first. This is a huge amount of time dedicated to ripping out old components without shorting out the whole deck, etc. Also, for larger components such as shuttlecraft recovery, computer core, warp core, warp nacelle components, etc., the hull would have to be cut into and separated in order to get the components out and get new components in.
Efficiency. Warp field theory for example favours starships with a larger number of warp coils within the nacelles (warp coils generate the subspace field which allows starships to travel at warp; more coils, stronger field). Due to the structure of the ship, 22nd or 23rd century ships don't have large amounts of space for warp coils (exception being the Excelsior). This means no matter how you refit the older vessels, Trek physics doesn't allow the vessel to reach the same ability as newer starships.
Limitations. The NX-01 couldn't fly faster than warp 5.5 due to structural stress and limitations of the design. Granted, SIF/IDF fields are much more advanced in the 25th century, but regardless these ships would be left behind. Their design does not permit them to perform as effectively as a newer design.
Combat history. Mirandas were seen as ships that were the first and easiest to completely destroy, even from TNG. They did relatively little damage output, compared to 24th century vessels. Why would Starfleet choose to refit a ship with that bad of a combat record?
Losses from the Dominion War. A great number of Mirandas were lost in the DW. While there still might be mothballed Constitutions and Oberths lying around, the number of Mirandas has significantly decreased from between the days of TNG and after the Dominion War. There might not be enough Mirandas left to justify the costs and time in refitting these vessels, when a shipyard could easily spit out a new Nova-class.
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Jeez, we're still raging against players wanting to fly old ships? I find it pretty sad tbh, maybe I should start a post raging about all the non-starfleet ships that starfleet officers are flying around in now. If you don't want to fly an NX or a connie then don't, but please don't be so selfish as to rage against people just because they want something different than you. STO is a game where people fly whatever they want, hence why some of you guys are flying around in Tholian carriers and Elatchi Battleships. I hardly think at this point having TMP connies taking part in STF's is going to ruin the game experience for you... and if it does then you need help.
EDIT: Just pointing out this isn't aimed at the OP or anyone in particular. I'm just so sick to death of seeing the same old arguments why people are so against letting other people enjoy the game flying ships they love. The excelsior shouldn't be as powerful as the sovereign, but it is... having TMP era ships in the game won't hurt. Just let it go.
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[*] Refitting. In order to replace major systems, the older systems have to be taken out first. This is a huge amount of time dedicated to ripping out old components without shorting out the whole deck, etc. Also, for larger components such as shuttlecraft recovery, computer core, warp core, warp nacelle components, etc., the hull would have to be cut into and separated in order to get the components out and get new components in.
Warp Cores have a hole directly above them so that they can be ejected. I'm sure that's the same hole they use to take them out and put them in. Plus, computers and other large systems can be beamed directly into place. They don't need to cut holes in anything to achieve that.
[*] Efficiency. Warp field theory for example favours starships with a larger number of warp coils within the nacelles (warp coils generate the subspace field which allows starships to travel at warp; more coils, stronger field). Due to the structure of the ship, 22nd or 23rd century ships don't have large amounts of space for warp coils (exception being the Excelsior). This means no matter how you refit the older vessels, Trek physics doesn't allow the vessel to reach the same ability as newer starships.
The Defiant would disagree with you.
[*] Limitations. The NX-01 couldn't fly faster than warp 5.5 due to structural stress and limitations of the design. Granted, SIF/IDF fields are much more advanced in the 25th century, but regardless these ships would be left behind. Their design does not permit them to perform as effectively as a newer design.
In the NX era structural integrity was based on welds and bolts. In eras after that structural integrity is based on force fields - something they didn't have in the NX era. It's force fields that hold the Connie, Excelsior, Galaxy, Sovereign, etc together at high warps.
[*] Combat history. Mirandas were seen as ships that were the first and easiest to completely destroy, even from TNG. They did relatively little damage output, compared to 24th century vessels. Why would Starfleet choose to refit a ship with that bad of a combat record?
Mirandas were over 100 years old by the TNG era. But that has nothing to do with the logic of the game, where a T1 Miranda can be outfitted with MK XII purple gear just as easily as a 25th century ship.
[*] Losses from the Dominion War. A great number of Mirandas were lost in the DW. While there still might be mothballed Constitutions and Oberths lying around, the number of Mirandas has significantly decreased from between the days of TNG and after the Dominion War. There might not be enough Mirandas left to justify the costs and time in refitting these vessels, when a shipyard could easily spit out a new Nova-class.
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The Oberths, Connies, etc in this game are Replica ships: new vessels built to look like older vessels. They didn't just pull them out of a scrap-heap somewhere.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I say if people want a T5 Miranda so bad, take your old newbie one out of mothballs and shove fleet equipment on it. would be more or less the same thing anyway because of how fleet ships are designed. They are designed to be only slightly better than their regular counterparts as far as stats and a lil boost to the bridge officer slots, number of weapon slots, and number of console slots. Also it's obvious it'll never happen anyway or it would have happened when they first added the whole fleet system because a T5 Miranda would be something available from a T1 shipyard. Besides, never going to make the Miranda lovers happy anyway, if they got a T5 Miranda next they'd want a dreadnaught version then a carrier version, then a clocking version or maybe a combo of the three.
Besides, never going to make the Miranda lovers happy anyway, if they got a T5 Miranda next they'd want a dreadnaught version then a carrier version, then a clocking version or maybe a combo of the three.
Don't you think you're been extremely presumptuous with that statement? I think many players would be happy just to have a Miranda at all at Tier 5. Hell, a lot of players in the past have stated that they'd be happy to take even a Tier 4 Constitution if they couldn't get one at the top tiers as a compromise to make the anti-connie trolls happy.
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Originally Posted by lomax6996 View Post
I can end this entire debate quickly and easily. The reason there SHOULD be a T5 Connie (NCC-1701 type... no bloody A, B, C OR D) is that it is, by far, the toughest and most effective ship Starfleet has ever sent to space... and THAT is canon. Allow me to elucidate...
BUT STO can right this absurd wrong... waddaya say, guys and gals? WE WANT OUR T5 Connie's! It's the best ship there ever was! It's CANON!
I still want my A though the TOS and TMP are best looking Enterpises ever.
The refit is not accurate as well as the Miranda they have arrays not emitters and no phaser cannons either.The Miranda does not have rear firing torps which means the license is not valid as these are fakes.
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While I love the TOS/first 6 movie era Enterprise/Constitution Class ships more than anything, I don't think they have a place in the T5 up vessels. While making them a T5 can be done, the question is more "should it be done?" I find myself saying no to that. We have plenty of hulls out there already and should Cryptic ever get good at designing the appearance of ships, I would like to see more, new designs to move the game forward.
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Agreed. Each ship is supposed to represent something distinguishing and not just a "slap on skin". The Miranda? By modern times, an effectively useless ship.
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I've always wondered how effective those Soyuz-class turrets would be. I don't recall any Federation vessel with turrets that size.
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That's true. Somewhere it was stated that the Soyuz class was retired, yet the Miranda class remains. Probably the ominous Mega-Turrets were too dangerous to wave around on the Klingon borders.
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LOL, it's just an oversized measuring tape holder!
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Don't disagree with you per se, but the Reliant took two photon torpedo hits you left out, one to the pod over the saucer section and one to a nacelle which blew it off the ship.
That way everybody is happy. But it would never be done.
Or just make a TMP era server
No need to. The best ship from TMP era is the Excelsior. One of the best ships in the game as is, is the Excelsior.
Picard's ship was nice... bridge was laid out like a bank lobby (all you needed were some little pens on chains and Worf smiling behind that counter back of Picard's head asking "How can I help you today?") and the officer's quarters were like hotel suites. But it was a paper Tiger! I mean every time someone took a shot at them you've got sparks flying, gases spewing all over engineering, Geordi's calling up with a laundry list of things gone wrong... hell once they faced off against a couple of Romulan Warbirds who just tapped off a few low power pot shots to get his attention and Geordi's screaming that the power transfer fields are pinched off (HUH??) and they've actually suffered minor structural damage thru the shields! Sheeeeesh :rolleyes:
The Defiant was a grand little ship that packed a hell of a punch and was fairly tough... but any real licking and again you've got sparks flying, people dieing... gases spewing everywhere. They'd lose their shields almost every other battle. (you'd think if you lose something that often you'd put a leash on it).
Janeways ship was ALWAYS falling apart. Seemed like almost everyone in the Delta quadrant outgunned her. And the effectiveness of her weapons against any but the most primitive opponents was such that she might as well have thrown marshmallow's at them.
As for Archer's ship.... puhleese! He was outgunned by everyone he ever went up against. Rumor has it he was once chased by a Gorn teenager in a shuttle armed with a slingshot and it took him 3 weeks in drydock to make repairs. Trip was the only thing that kept that sagging old rustbucket from flying apart. :eek:
Kirk's Connie got hammered by the best and all it ever did was cause the bridge crew to sway dramatically from side to side or throw themselves around the bridge a bit. A desk bound book jockey of a Commodore once flew Kirk's ship into the Neutral Zone, got surrounded by enemy "wessels" and proceeded to get the ship POUNDED by warships determined to "waporize" it for the better part of 5 minutes and all it did was shake... there weren't even any serious casualties (once Kirk rescued 'em all, of course). Hell the ship once faced off against the Planet Killer and took a direct hit from a beam of pure anti-proton (absolutely pure!) and all it did was blow a few circuits! And the upgrade took V'Ger's best shot and the result was Sulu sitting there, grinning, saying, "The new shields held!". Obviously this was the toughest, most able ship design in Starfleet history... not to mention the fastest! (it was faster than all the later ships? ... I SAID not to mention that!)
SO... what happened? Why didn't they just keep that ship in the field if it was SO damn good?!
Well... that's bureaucrats for you.
OBVIOUSLY by the 24th Century we STILL won't have outgrown the primitive concept of "government" or realized that there is NOTHING a bureaucracy can't fudge up!
BUT STO can right this absurd wrong... waddaya say, guys and gals? WE WANT OUR T5 Connie's! It's the best ship there ever was! It's CANON!
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Absolutely brilliant. Checkmate OP. bring on the retro retrofits lol.
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No Excel is for longer service life and useful ness, granted it's a connie on steroids but connie was not the best, it was second. but she is also for over a century, RETIRED FROM SERVICE.
i for one have never liked the connie, but i'll take what you said. yes the D took a beating and it seemed to always be breaking down or needing maintenance, at least more then any other ship class in the fleet.
Voyager a science cruiser, never meant to be in battle or on that long of a distance journey would need constant repairs, especially after the damage it took from just getting to the delta quadrant, let alone the other advance alien races that seemed to only want to shoot first ask questions latter.
The Defiant a "tough little ship" as Picard put it in first contact, was just that a little ship, cannon fodder that was suppose to go in the first wave, soften the enemies front line and retreat, never suppose to be in a long duration of battle.
then the NX class, first warp five ship, only human made, no alien tech, of course it
would be weak, we did not know what to expect, at least every other race already seemed to have shielding, and hall plating combos, we did not get that until the formation of the united coalition of planets, what would one day be the united federation of plaints.
and last the super ugly flying saucer with a cylinder underneath, two sticks accompanied with two smaller cylinders that they call the connie, yes it's depicted as one of the strongest ships in the 23rd century, but that's it in the 24 it's not shown. i doubt that it could hold up to a 70 year voyage back home better then voyager, or take a d'd in single combat like the gal, or even last two seconds against a dominion bug ship, let alone a dreadnought. btw the connie need a full complement of crew in the ship or it would not go anywhere, while the Defiant can work of five,intrepid only needs it senior officers, and don't know haw many the gal needed, that alone would merit retiring her.
i'm up for a tier 5 Miranda, as long as you take the Miranda skin away from it, both the Centaur and the ShiKahr, nether are two old and can still be modified, one being a 24th cen ship and the other being a 25th cen ship, they both have potential. now you might say that there is a tier two conie refit that's new, yes i would support the refit but again take away the connie and connie original refit skins. now people will say that there are 22 cen ships flown by the rr and the klinks, but you have to think starfleet is about advancement not about sticking to a ship type because it's been used before and has succeeded in battle and it's other duties.
then you will say what about the excelsior class ship the nx-2000 came out in the end years of the connies involvement in star fleet, was the top of the line ship for a while, but was then depromoted to basically a pack mule for ambassadors and to fill up the fleet in time of war, they were not expected to last long in battle, her original life expectancy was 150 to 200 years compared to the connies 50. and she barley got that being most being taken out of service before they received their first refits, others just lasting two to five years after, and the refit was suppose to extended it by at least another 10 to 15 years.
face it the connies not as great as you think, yes the first show stared with it, it showed less damage, less smoke, but think of it this way, in the 60's they had less special effects they could use, and those that they could cost a lot of money, solution make a hero ship that can barely get damaged. i'm not trying to troll, it's just my two cents.
Fed: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=780321
RR: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=12150781#post12150781
KDF: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=784941
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The problem is they tried to make the shows vastly different, that the modern era of ships weren't indestructable super ships really dictates the method of Story Telling not the strength of ships.
Maybe modern weapons are just far more powerful.
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I was always under the impression that starfleet ship designs were modular, for ease of upgrading. Besides, looking at the tech of the 24th/25th century, a lot of probably wouldnt be structural.
Upgrades to shields largely come in new emitters and more efficient distribution/frequencies etc. Similar sizes, just rip out and replace (or in the case of new frequnecy/patterns, just patch the software.
The main computers, if they follow real life, would get smaller and/or more powerful as time goes by. Again, remove and replace. Greater cpu power would lead to more automation, and therefore lead to smaller minimum crew size, meaning more space for cargo, troops/specialist personnel or upgrades, such as additional power generation.
Advances in torpedo technology were largely contained within the torpedoes themselves, and from what was seen on screen they stayed roughly the same size. Phaser strips seem to have a similar principle.
Surely the biggest investment would be in new power cores, though again the cores sot of a new core is surely not as high as the cost of a whole new hull. Heck, the cores are designed to be removed and replaced relatively quickly (how many times do we see voyager spit its core out at a moments notice?)
So even assuming that every system needed upgrading at a scheduled refit, it would still take less time and resources to bring an older ship up to par with a brand new vessel. In time of war (especially war on multiple fronts), I think Starfleet wouldnt want to see such blatant waste and breaking up experienced crews to serve on ships they arent as faimilar with.
Whats cheaper? A dozen hardware upgrades, various system tweaks and new hull armour, OR building an entirely new hull (with the same amount of new hardware), training its crew to a whole new ship and making sure.
A new hull would need the same amount of hardware, plus a whole new hull, design/testing time and training a new crew that is not familiar with the ship or each other. That is not to speak of amassing knowledge of the ships "quirks" and new software.
Since there haven't been any huge revolutions in starship design, (saucer, body, nacelle for big ships, with smaller ships having the nacelles tacked straight onto the sauce) I seriosuly doubt that a newer ship would have a huge advantage over an older one if the older one had been refitted with modern equipment, especially if the latter had a crew with many years of experience in that design (particularly since fleet engineers have had a lot longer to work out the kinks in the design of the older ships and squeeze out every last advantage).
I understand and accept there are probably holes in my point. But I for one would rather see truly Federation ships, even older ones or retrofits, around ESD than the ever increasing percentage of Borg,Tholian, Elachi and soon Voth vessels. Why not let people fly what they want, so long as its Trek?
I doubt itll happen, but I wish it would. People should be able to fly what they want without paying a huge performance penalty.
PS Any problem regarding age wouldnt apply to the Exeter and Centaur anyway.
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you forget the fed always like to try new things. In truth the connie can be refitted for this era. However they have a better ship in place now. Excelsior. While the klinons are content with existing designs and only make a new one if the need to.
First off, I'd like to thank you for being polite and courteous. It's something that isn't seen very often around here, and I greatly appreciate it.
Your points around systems replacement time/resource cost versus manufacturing a new vessel do make sense, since you wouldn't need to manufacture a totally new hull for the ship. However, there are some concerns with favour newer vessels over the older ones:
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EDIT: Just pointing out this isn't aimed at the OP or anyone in particular. I'm just so sick to death of seeing the same old arguments why people are so against letting other people enjoy the game flying ships they love. The excelsior shouldn't be as powerful as the sovereign, but it is... having TMP era ships in the game won't hurt. Just let it go.
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The Defiant would disagree with you.
In the NX era structural integrity was based on welds and bolts. In eras after that structural integrity is based on force fields - something they didn't have in the NX era. It's force fields that hold the Connie, Excelsior, Galaxy, Sovereign, etc together at high warps.
Mirandas were over 100 years old by the TNG era. But that has nothing to do with the logic of the game, where a T1 Miranda can be outfitted with MK XII purple gear just as easily as a 25th century ship.
The Oberths, Connies, etc in this game are Replica ships: new vessels built to look like older vessels. They didn't just pull them out of a scrap-heap somewhere.
Don't you think you're been extremely presumptuous with that statement? I think many players would be happy just to have a Miranda at all at Tier 5. Hell, a lot of players in the past have stated that they'd be happy to take even a Tier 4 Constitution if they couldn't get one at the top tiers as a compromise to make the anti-connie trolls happy.
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The refit is not accurate as well as the Miranda they have arrays not emitters and no phaser cannons either.The Miranda does not have rear firing torps which means the license is not valid as these are fakes.
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I never can wrap my head around why people want to limit options in a MMO. My question is how many arguing against it actually fly a federation ship?
If the Miranda was the ship used by the stars of a Star Trek show I am sure it would be just as tough as the others hehe.