T5 T'varo.
200~300 year old vessel. Predating even the NX-01.
That's really the sum of it. The game is full of ships 100-200 years old - from the B'rel, to T'varo, to D'kyr and onward. There is no mechanical justification for any of them to be in the game. We can sit around arguing about warp cores and structural integrity but it's all moot. They are there because they were canon in some era and people like to fly canon ships. People want to fly a T5 Connie just like they can fly a T5 B'rel.
It doesn't matter if wanting a T5 Connie, Miranda, or NX doesn't make canon sense, or mechanical sense, because nothing in this game makes canon or mechanical sense. STO isn't canon. It's a hodge-podge of fan-favorite bits all thrown together to make money. The sooner people accept that they happier they will be while playing STO.
Now CBS has said no T5 Connie, and there's no much we can do about that until CBS changes its mind. The same might be true of the NX. I really can't see how the Miranda would be considered CBS Iconic to not rate a T5 version, though. So at the very least they should consider throwing that ship into the Fleet Store for those who want it.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I, myself would absolutely fall over squee-ing if I could captain a T5 Miranda. But just because there are ships of the exact same age I]b'rel, Dhalan etc[/I or doubly older already available doesn't mean it will happen... which makes me very sad.
T5 T'varo.
200~300 year old vessel. Predating even the NX-01.
While most of the argument about hull shell retrofitting is loose at best for continued service viability, Crytpic themselves have kicked their own loophole into the subject on two fronts.
The T'varo from centuries ago and the Time Ships from centuries ahead.
The T'varo's are doing perfectly fine despite their service age. And the Time Ships seems to be poorly lacking in any hull integrity sophistication despite being centuries ahead in tech. So the T'varo was retrofit with modern tech, and the Time Ships were gutted of future tech. Including it's hull? Questionable logic.
The logic of the argument has been moot for a long time. It comes down to "what Cryptic thinks will sell". Nothing more. Nothing less.
My response to this is that this is an Alien ship so that they don't have the same design aesthetics as humans do and have been around for longer. Humans have to constantly update their designs every few years for whatever reason and need to make improvements to the design. Aliens have been refining their design for years so they have achieved a design that works very well and if it works very well, then there is no need to change it. So it is easy to update the technology with only minute changes to the design for alien ships, but not for human ships. So a human ship design from the 22nd Century suffers from human's need for change and immature design while alien ship designs from the 22nd Century can work in the 25th Century. So a Tier 5 T'Varo is not from the 22nd Century or earlier just its design. The Tier 1 version might very well be from the 22nd Century, but the Tier 5 version was made recently.
btw They made cars way better back then as they were stronger steel.I imagine that for Starships maybe.
I happen to know how to customize a car lol. spent over a year on a 33 Vicky helping a friend do it... well doing it for him lol. Yes it would have been far cheaper just to buy a new car.
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The Tier 1 version might very well be from the 22nd Century, but the Tier 5 version was made recently.
That's a pointless distinction. For example the ShiKahr is a 25th Century ship, yet it is only T1. The Rhode Island and Exeter are 25th Century ships, yet they are T2, and so on - with the Rhode Island having a T5 version. Plus they've already said that the older ships are Replicas built in the 25th Century, not old ships brought back into service.
As I said, the mechanical distinctions are pointless. Everything currently on sale in this game, from weapons, to uniforms, to ships, is fan-driven, not logic-driven.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
That's a pointless distinction. For example the ShiKahr is a 25th Century ship, yet it is only T1. The Rhode Island and Exeter are 25th Century ships, yet they are T2, and so on - with the Rhode Island having a T5 version. Plus they've already said that the older ships are Replicas built in the 25th Century, not old ships brought back into service.
As I said, the mechanical distinctions are pointless. Everything currently on sale in this game, from weapons, to uniforms, to ships, is fan-driven, not logic-driven.
However, they are 25th Century ships designed for mass production. A military doesn't build only the best ships. They build a ton of ships that most of their Captains pilot, then they build their better ships for the Captains that have proven themselves. A military doesn't give their best ships to people that just got into the Captain's seat. They give smaller and less impressive ships to them and send them on less impressive missions until the Captains prove themselves. A Rhode Island at Tier 2 is not the same thing as a Rhode Island at Tier 5. After all, the capabilities and technology of the Tier 2 Rhode Island is less impressive than the Tier 5 version. The Tier 2 Rhode Island might have used off-the-shelf equipment while the Tier 5 Rhode Island would have used state-of-the-art equipment. A military simply doesn't use state-of-the-art equipment on ships that are used by regular Captains, they use it on Captains that have proven themselves. After all, making ships requires resources and no matter how advanced a race is, they will have some economy that determines where resources go. A military can only build a few Tier 5 ships compared to a ton of Tier 2 ships. You simply don't give a Tier 5 ship to someone that is likely going to destroy it in a couple of weeks while it doesn't matter if a Tier 2 ship is destroyed.
However, they are 25th Century ships designed for mass production. A military doesn't build only the best ships. They build a ton of ships that most of their Captains pilot, then they build their better ships for the Captains that have proven themselves.
Just as with your Rhode Island example, there's nothing to say that a T5 Miranda would not also use state-of-the-art equipment - not even keeping in mind that most of the "equipment" you put on a ship yourself: weapons, shields, engines, etc.
The point is there's no mechanical reason to not have T5 versions of every ship in the game. If they can have T5 250 year old D'kyrs they can have T5 150 year old Mirandas. It simply comes down to Cryptic and CBS doing it not about it not being logical for this mish-mash setting.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Just as with your Rhode Island example, there's nothing to say that a T5 Miranda would not also use state-of-the-art equipment - not even keeping in mind that most of the "equipment" you put on a ship yourself: weapons, shields, engines, etc.
The point is there's no mechanical reason to not have T5 versions of every ship in the game. If they can have T5 250 year old D'kyrs they can have T5 150 year old Mirandas. It simply comes down to Cryptic and CBS doing it not about it not being logical for this mish-mash setting.
The problem is that I can see Vulcans going through the trouble of updating a ship from the 22nd Century with 25th Century technology since it is more logical to only create designs for when it is necessary. If Vulcans update their ships to use Quantum Slipstream, then they would need to change the design. However, I can never see humans do the same. It is the whole updating a Model T Ford or Steamship problem with modern technology. Might be cool as a hobby, but we won't ever see a bunch of Model T Fords with V8 Engines on the road or Steamships with modern torpedoes in a military.
Suspension of Disbelief only works so far. We can enjoy Star Trek with technology that might never exist like Warp Travel, Transporters, and Holodecks and have Jem'Hadar, Breen, Liberated Borg, Androids, Holograms, Gorn, and Remans working on the same ship, but having a modified TOS Enterprise going up against the Sovereign is just not believable.
Suspension of Disbelief only works so far. We can enjoy Star Trek with technology that might never exist like Warp Travel, Transporters, and Holodecks and have Jem'Hadar, Breen, Liberated Borg, Androids, Holograms, Gorn, and Remans working on the same ship, but having a modified TOS Enterprise going up against the Sovereign is just not believable.
Connie as cruiser - I'll (sorta) buy into that...
Connie as Science vessel vs. Soverign/Oddessy? Well... :cool:
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Suspension of Disbelief only works so far. We can enjoy Star Trek with technology that might never exist like Warp Travel, Transporters, and Holodecks and have Jem'Hadar, Breen, Liberated Borg, Androids, Holograms, Gorn, and Remans working on the same ship, but having a modified TOS Enterprise going up against the Sovereign is just not believable.
My answer to this is simply: So?
What in this game is believable? Is a 125 year old Excelsior being the best Cruiser in the game believable? Does it make sense that it's better, if not at least as good, then a Sovereign or Odyssey? Of course not.
Suspension of disbelieve is subjective and dependent upon the observer. One person is completely fine with a dozen different Starfleet uniforms, rainbow energy weapons, and alien ships used by the Federation everywhere. Another is mortally angered if the polygons are off on the neck and saucer connection. To each their own.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
you could say that if you ignored the last 2 decades of engine, gearbox, metalurgic technology leaps.
it more or less depends on what you want in a car. if you want durability and simplicity to make repairs by yourself easier then yes, old cars were better. If you on the other hand prefer performance, lower gas prices, comfort, ...i'd go with a modern day car.
there cannot be made any argument on how and why it is better or worse to refit an 100 year old ship...this is star trek and they simply want or don't want older ship types in the game.
Unfortunately they don't want those old ships in the game, sad, but that is how it is. no reason to come up with reasons that may be canon.
CBS doesn't want them as endgame ships, i don't agree with their reasoning, but they make the decissions.
I can get both out of an old car of what you said and todays Tech can be added to a 30s to a 1930 or the Model T.
That is the whole problem right thereCBS doesn't want them as endgame ships, i don't agree with their reasoning, but they make the decissionsCBS doesn't know a thing about Star Trek and its fan base as babyboomers like myself are more into TOS/TMP era while those born after especially Gen X and Y are more into TNG era.
Star Trek was far better before the TNG came along or setting it in the 24C.Gene being Gene as he lousey at making Star Trek.
@jetwtf It maybe cheaper but you it doesn't have the resale value of a older car like Model A.
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That is the whole problem right thereCBS doesn't want them as endgame ships, i don't agree with their reasoning, but they make the decissionsCBS doesn't know a thing about Star Trek and its fan base as babyboomers like myself are more into TOS/TMP era while those born after especially Gen X and Y are more into TNG era.
There is no way to tell if the person in charge of Star Trek at CBS knows anything about Star Trek without doing some research on them. The simple fact that they are denying access to Tier 5 Constitution seems to imply that they actually care enough about Star Trek to prevent Kirk's ship from being piloted by everyone or they just really hate the Constitution. If they didn't care about Star Trek, then they would have agreed to Tier 5 Constitution and let Cryptic do whatever they want as long as it didn't involve putting Imperial Destroyers in STO or something else that would cause legal problems.
Star Trek was far better before the TNG came along or setting it in the 24C.Gene being Gene as he lousey at making Star Trek.
That is merely your opinion. Everyone has their favorite Star Trek series and in their opinion their favorite series is far better than all others. As far as I remember, Gene was only responsible for the first season of TNG, but all seasons of TOS. So if Gene is lousy at making Star Trek, then TOS would be lousy and we wouldn't have TNG and we wouldn't have Star Trek Online.
I can get both out of an old car of what you said and todays Tech can be added to a 30s to a 1930 or the Model T.
yes you can do that, but in the real world and in sto budget and resources would be a major limiting factor.
and refitting a model T to have comfort, performance and tech of a modern car would consume a lifetimes savings. Not even mentioning the time of planing would take.
within a preset budget priorities must be made, which simply makes refits too expensive.
and then there are obstacles that can't be just overcome...one would be aerodynamics of a model T doesn't even allow it to reach velocitys modern design can support.
without doing a complete reshape and redesign certain design flaws can't be overcome, which begs the question if the refited design is actually still true to the basic model, which it simply can't be if you want it all in one package.
Actualy it is far more difficult and expensive to retrofit/refit anything to modern specs than it is to build all new. Take a car from the 30's for example, refiting it to use all modern engine, drivetrain, and instruments costs more than buying a new car and a ship is a complete different animal. Ships are built around the larger equipment on board such as engines and weapon systems. The ships have to be torn down before any new work can be done, once torn down any structure that will remain needs to be replaced if there is any age/stress weakness. then the structure has to begin being rebuilt to accomadate the new equipment before the new equipment can be added. All that takes as long or longer than just starting from scratch. This is why old ships are mothballed rather than endless retrofiting.
Not necessarily, I can grab a used 2010 up V8 Camaro and trans with harness and neccessary components for well under ten grand (6-7k), a Strange 10 bolt to keep the power from roaching the rear and needed guages for under 2 grand. Suspension parts are pricier than an off the shelf car from the last 50 years, but not that much more.
Make that car one from the early sixties (Chevy II Nova, A body intermediates etc) and it gets a ton easier, especially for the axle and suspension. Start talking second Gen Camaro/Firebird or G-Body midsizes (The earliest are approaching at or beyond 40 years old).
And this is if I only go with a Gen III-IV small block. People have been using Ford and Chevy small blocks on 30's era Fords for over 40 years now. Start using Vortec headed 86 up (one peice rear main) and L-98 style fuel injection and it drops dramatically and can be made to run straights, carve corners and gas mileage that matches Camaro, Challenger and some applications of Mustang ( weight of the Camaro and Challenger might as well be off the scale).
yes you can do that, but in the real world and in sto budget and resources would be a major limiting factor.
and refitting a model T to have comfort, performance and tech of a modern car would consume a lifetimes savings. Not even mentioning the time of planing would take.
within a preset budget priorities must be made, which simply makes refits too expensive.
and then there are obstacles that can't be just overcome...one would be aerodynamics of a model T doesn't even allow it to reach velocitys modern design can support.
without doing a complete reshape and redesign certain design flaws can't be overcome, which begs the question if the refited design is actually still true to the basic model, which it simply can't be if you want it all in one package.
Model T, maybe not, but they stopped being produced in '27 , start talking about its replacement, the Model A
People have already planned it out for you and its not that expensive. Just an example:
Aerodynamics? Get a welder and change the rake on the windshield and weld on some lower air slats with sheet metal.
Is it Ferrari beating? No but it can make a 30-60k car owner sweat at the straights and still make it around the corners pretty decent and give econoboxers a run for it.
That's quite the paradox, how could you nerf nerf when the nerf is nerfed. But how would the nerf be nerfed when the nerf is nerfed? This allows the nerf not to be nerfed since the nerf is nerfed? But if the nerf isn't nerfed, it could still nerf nerfs. But as soon as the nerf is nerfed, the nerf power is lost. So paradoxally it the nerf nerf lost its nerf, while it's still nerfed, which cannot be because the nerf was unable to nerf.
Aerodynamics? Get a welder and change the rake on the windshield and weld on some lower air slats with sheet metal.
Is it Ferrari beating? No but it can make a 30-60k car owner sweat at the straights and still make it around the corners pretty decent and give econoboxers a run for it.
yeah old is allways better...car manufacturer need to focus on customizing 50 year old cars instead of producing new ones. that will save the car industry and the planet!
and the evil people at CBS want to destroy the planet by not allowing TOS ships as T5 options in STO.
laser tech won't save the galaxy...only good old gunpowder can do that.
why even bother inventing something new if the old stuff is already better...
(yes, that all was sarcasm)
if there was a tree for every idiot on this planet, the air would be alot cleaner...
yes you can do that, but in the real world and in sto budget and resources would be a major limiting factor.
and refitting a model T to have comfort, performance and tech of a modern car would consume a lifetimes savings. Not even mentioning the time of planing would take.
within a preset budget priorities must be made, which simply makes refits too expensive.
and then there are obstacles that can't be just overcome...one would be aerodynamics of a model T doesn't even allow it to reach velocitys modern design can support.
without doing a complete reshape and redesign certain design flaws can't be overcome, which begs the question if the refited design is actually still true to the basic model, which it simply can't be if you want it all in one package.
There is also the issue that at what point does a modified ship or vehicle can no longer be classified as that ship or vehicle? Replace everything, but the Kitchen Sink in a Miranda and you can't call that as a Miranda anymore. However, replacing the Warp Core with a better one would not be enough of a change to change it to something else. So while there is a possibility of Fleet Light Cruiser Retrofits even if it is 0.00001%, there can't be Tier 5 Mirandas due to the ship being changed too much. It might look like a Miranda, but it won't be a Miranda.
yeah old is allways better...car manufacturer need to focus on customizing 50 year old cars instead of producing new ones. that will save the car industry and the planet!
and the evil people at CBS want to destroy the planet by not allowing TOS ships as T5 options in STO.
laser tech won't save the galaxy...only good old gunpowder can do that.
why even bother inventing something new if the old stuff is already better...
(yes, that all was sarcasm)
if there was a tree for every idiot on this planet, the air would be alot cleaner...
First off, don't call me an idiot, first its a violation of the TOU and second, not the best way to carry on a discussion.
If you had read the whole forum, you would know that I am against a T5 Connie, Miranda, etc. The arguments made automotive-wise was flawed and I was stating facts for the point of correctness, so your sarcasm was wasted. Work with less flawed arguments, know who are talking to (and what side they are on) and learn how to maintain a discussion without resorting to name calling, and you might be able to carry your point.
Just a few points I wanted to address from various posters:
My response to this is that this is an Alien ship so that they don't have the same design aesthetics as humans do and have been around for longer. Humans have to constantly update their designs every few years for whatever reason and need to make improvements to the design. Aliens have been refining their design for years so they have achieved a design that works very well and if it works very well, then there is no need to change it. So it is easy to update the technology with only minute changes to the design for alien ships, but not for human ships. So a human ship design from the 22nd Century suffers from human's need for change and immature design while alien ship designs from the 22nd Century can work in the 25th Century. So a Tier 5 T'Varo is not from the 22nd Century or earlier just its design. The Tier 1 version might very well be from the 22nd Century, but the Tier 5 version was made recently.
Irrelevant. The Federation is made up of numerous worlds and races, whose science and expertise are contributed to the whole. Starfleet may be predominately Human, but the technologies behind Starfleet's vessels are not. They are the products of the Federation's best scientific and engineering minds. They are not solely the product of Earth/UESPA R&D.
However, they are 25th Century ships designed for mass production.
I doubt that. The same goes for star ships from any era of the Federation.
It took nearly two years to rebuild the Enterprise from the ground up during the big refit after the end of the five year mission. And the Galaxy class had a long, drawn out period between the start of the project and the launch/shakedown of the NCC-1701-D (the new flagship of the Federation). It takes time to develop and build a new class of vessels.
Probably one reason flexibility and ease of adaptability was a hallmark of Starfleet vessels. Building new examples of a proven design, with an inherent adaptability to new technologies, is less time consuming and more cost-effective than trying to develop new designs from scratch.
Mass production implies an assembly line approach to Starfleet's needs. However, something as sophisticated and complex as a starship, like their ocean going cousins of old, cannot be spit out of a factory in droves like a Nissan mini-van or F-22A fighter.
The point is there's no mechanical reason to not have T5 versions of every ship in the game. If they can have T5 250 year old D'kyrs they can have T5 150 year old Mirandas. It simply comes down to Cryptic and CBS doing it not about it not being logical for this mish-mash setting.
Exactly. However, some people are anal about it for various reasons. None of which stands up to scrutiny, common sense, and the very nature of STO.
Now CBS has said no T5 Connie, and there's no much we can do about that until CBS changes its mind. The same might be true of the NX. I really can't see how the Miranda would be considered CBS Iconic to not rate a T5 version, though. So at the very least they should consider throwing that ship into the Fleet Store for those who want it.
CBS said no to a tier five Constitution class from The Original Series. The movie era Constitution class, and other vessels from the films starring the original cast, is fair game for an upgrade. But Cryptic hasn't done so for whatever reason. I just wanted to clarify.
The logic of the argument has been moot for a long time. It comes down to "what Cryptic thinks will sell". Nothing more. Nothing less.
Very good point. And, in all likelyhood, right on the money.
However, Cryptic's marketing folks must not be on the ball, since there are plenty of folks willing to shell out the bread for the chance to fly their faves in the endgame.
According to the ingame description, the Tier 1 NX has already been retrofitted. If they took the NX Enterprise in its original form, then it might be a Tier 0.1 ship. What is to say that the Miranda and TOS Constitution aren't already retrofitted as well? So it would make sense that with 2409 technology that Tier 1 is the best these ships can do. If they used 2509 technology, then these ships could be made into Tier 5 ships, but then they would still be Tier 1 ships for the Tier 5 ships of that era.
The NX in the game is not a retrofit. It's a replica built with 25th Century technology. The Original Series era Constitution, on the other hand, was pulled out of mothballs in limited numbers. The STO NX Replica is actually a more advanced ship than the original configuration Constitution retrofit/refit.
Actualy it is far more difficult and expensive to retrofit/refit anything to modern specs than it is to build all new. Take a car from the 30's for example, refiting it to use all modern engine, drivetrain, and instruments costs more than buying a new car and a ship is a complete different animal. Ships are built around the larger equipment on board such as engines and weapon systems. The ships have to be torn down before any new work can be done, once torn down any structure that will remain needs to be replaced if there is any age/stress weakness. then the structure has to begin being rebuilt to accomadate the new equipment before the new equipment can be added. All that takes as long or longer than just starting from scratch. This is why old ships are mothballed rather than endless retrofiting.
Apples and Oranges, as they say. There is a world of difference between automotive design from the early 20th Century and (fictional) starship designs built for rugged service and long service life in the harshest environment known: space.
And as a former hotrodder, bringing an antique up to modern specs is actually cheaper than restoring it to original. And not that difficult with a well equipped shop and people who know what they are doing (as opposed to "Joe Shade Tree" in his back yard, with his drinking buddies to help out).
For the vast majority of players in sto that do not pvp isn't appearance the primary reason for flying the class of ships we use?
There are people who choose to use cruisers and science ships in stfs even though it's more efficient to use an escort. Clearly they are doing it because they enjoy the aesthetics of those ships. Form over function.
What does a t5 miranda or constitution give a player? A sense of Star Trek satisifaction in that they are living out their geek fantasies. Isn't that what games are supposed to be about: playing through fantasies for fun?
In fact, I personally would have better immersion teaming up with Connies, Mirandas and such than stretching my mind around the feds using a whole fleet of Jem'Hadar, Cardassian, Ferengi, Elachi, Tal Shiar, Tholian, Voth (and most unbelievably, 29th C vessels. Which fell through from a mirror universe).
Ultimately, these points should settle the debate once for all. Unfortunately, the ones on the "holy crusade" against them being higher tier (or in the game at all) will ignore them in their quest to dictate how the game should played to their "standards".
Let people fly what they want and have fun. That's all that matters in the end.
The idea of immersion in a "canon" environment went down the crapper with this game long ago. So, Cryptic could stand to make some dough off of upgrades for some of these fan favorites.
If cbs is indeed the one who said no to tier 5 constitution class etc. Then I really don't see why the non tos era ships like Excalibur, exter and vespa classes can't get a fleet version... In their descriptions it said they were 2409 designs. 2409 miranda would be cool too, NX -shrug-
they could make a 2409 escort the same design.
Just a few points I wanted to address from various posters:
Irrelevant. The Federation is made up of numerous worlds and races, whose science and expertise are contributed to the whole. Starfleet may be predominately Human, but the technologies behind Starfleet's vessels are not. They are the products of the Federation's best scientific and engineering minds. They are not solely the product of Earth/UESPA R&D.
I doubt that. The same goes for star ships from any era of the Federation.
It took nearly two years to rebuild the Enterprise from the ground up during the big refit after the end of the five year mission. And the Galaxy class had a long, drawn out period between the start of the project and the launch/shakedown of the NCC-1701-D (the new flagship of the Federation). It takes time to develop and build a new class of vessels.
Probably one reason flexibility and ease of adaptability was a hallmark of Starfleet vessels. Building new examples of a proven design, with an inherent adaptability to new technologies, is less time consuming and more cost-effective than trying to develop new designs from scratch.
Mass production implies an assembly line approach to Starfleet's needs. However, something as sophisticated and complex as a starship, like their ocean going cousins of old, cannot be spit out of a factory in droves like a Nissan mini-van or F-22A fighter.
Exactly. However, some people are anal about it for various reasons. None of which stands up to scrutiny, common sense, and the very nature of STO.
CBS said no to a tier five Constitution class from The Original Series. The movie era Constitution class, and other vessels from the films starring the original cast, is fair game for an upgrade. But Cryptic hasn't done so for whatever reason. I just wanted to clarify.
Very good point. And, in all likelyhood, right on the money.
However, Cryptic's marketing folks must not be on the ball, since there are plenty of folks willing to shell out the bread for the chance to fly their faves in the endgame.
The NX in the game is not a retrofit. It's a replica built with 25th Century technology. The Original Series era Constitution, on the other hand, was pulled out of mothballs in limited numbers. The STO NX Replica is actually a more advanced ship than the original configuration Constitution retrofit/refit.
Apples and Oranges, as they say. There is a world of difference between automotive design from the early 20th Century and (fictional) starship designs built for rugged service and long service life in the harshest environment known: space.
And as a former hotrodder, bringing an antique up to modern specs is actually cheaper than restoring it to original. And not that difficult with a well equipped shop and people who know what they are doing (as opposed to "Joe Shade Tree" in his back yard, with his drinking buddies to help out).
Ultimately, these points should settle the debate once for all. Unfortunately, the ones on the "holy crusade" against them being higher tier (or in the game at all) will ignore them in their quest to dictate how the game should played to their "standards".
Let people fly what they want and have fun. That's all that matters in the end.
The idea of immersion in a "canon" environment went down the crapper with this game long ago. So, Cryptic could stand to make some dough off of upgrades for some of these fan favorites.
If the people so desperate for one that they can't live without it gets a T5 Miranda or Constitution I want a 4th Odyssey added to the c shop with a universal Odyssey cloaking console or as a dreadnaught carrier :P
There is no way to tell if the person in charge of Star Trek at CBS knows anything about Star Trek without doing some research on them. The simple fact that they are denying access to Tier 5 Constitution seems to imply that they actually care enough about Star Trek to prevent Kirk's ship from being piloted by everyone or they just really hate the Constitution. If they didn't care about Star Trek, then they would have agreed to Tier 5 Constitution and let Cryptic do whatever they want as long as it didn't involve putting Imperial Destroyers in STO or something else that would cause legal problems.
Then that person at CBS should be replaced to someone who knows Star Trek very well.This certianly wouldn't of happened under Mr Redstone and btw modders will use these ships no matter CBS says
That is merely your opinion. Everyone has their favorite Star Trek series and in their opinion their favorite series is far better than all others. As far as I remember, Gene was only responsible for the first season of TNG, but all seasons of TOS. So if Gene is lousy at making Star Trek, then TOS would be lousy and we wouldn't have TNG and we wouldn't have Star Trek Online.
Gene did nothing and had lots of disgreements it is why DC Fontana was there.Gene made a lot of bad desision when it came to Star Trek.I have right to my opinon as TOS/TMP is my Favourite.
Then that person at CBS should be replaced to someone who knows Star Trek very well.This certianly wouldn't of happened under Mr Redstone and btw modders will use these ships no matter CBS says
Under Mr. Redstone? You are aware that Sumner still owns both Viacom and CBS due to his preferred stock and voting rights, right? Everything in those companies is still under him. He was even at the Into Darkness premier earlier this year.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Under Mr. Redstone? You are aware that Sumner still owns both Viacom and CBS due to his preferred stock and voting rights, right? Everything in those companies is still under him. He was even at the Into Darkness premier earlier this year.
Nope it is Leslie Moonvies who is now in control of CBS
I could see if if Cryptis were to sell these ships for Zen then CBS wants some of the credit but if they were free ships then there would be no problem so the ball is in Cryptic and PWE court.
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USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
I could see if if Cryptis were to sell these ships for Zen then CBS wants some of the credit but if they were free ships then there would be no problem so the ball is in Cryptic and PWE court.
I'm talking about the ownership, not management. National Amusements, Sumner's company, still owns Viacom and CBS. Sumner is still the Chairman and CEO of National Amusements.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I'm talking about the ownership, not management. National Amusements, Sumner's company, still owns Viacom and CBS. Sumner is still the Chairman and CEO of National Amusements.
No he is not he is retired I could show you the letter we got from him if the site I ma on was up but it isn't atm.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
No he is not he is retired I could show you the letter we got from him if the site I ma on was up but it isn't atm.
As of August 27, 2013 Sumner was still in charge of National Amusements - based on information on a deal he's currently doing with Sony. He's also still listed as the Executive Chairman of the Board of CBS and Viacom on their respective official websites.
I don't know what you think you read that states he retired, but as of today he is still listed as in charge of CBS and Viacom.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Comments
It doesn't matter if wanting a T5 Connie, Miranda, or NX doesn't make canon sense, or mechanical sense, because nothing in this game makes canon or mechanical sense. STO isn't canon. It's a hodge-podge of fan-favorite bits all thrown together to make money. The sooner people accept that they happier they will be while playing STO.
Now CBS has said no T5 Connie, and there's no much we can do about that until CBS changes its mind. The same might be true of the NX. I really can't see how the Miranda would be considered CBS Iconic to not rate a T5 version, though. So at the very least they should consider throwing that ship into the Fleet Store for those who want it.
Very well said, thecosmic1~
I, myself would absolutely fall over squee-ing if I could captain a T5 Miranda. But just because there are ships of the exact same age I]b'rel, Dhalan etc[/I or doubly older already available doesn't mean it will happen... which makes me very sad.
My response to this is that this is an Alien ship so that they don't have the same design aesthetics as humans do and have been around for longer. Humans have to constantly update their designs every few years for whatever reason and need to make improvements to the design. Aliens have been refining their design for years so they have achieved a design that works very well and if it works very well, then there is no need to change it. So it is easy to update the technology with only minute changes to the design for alien ships, but not for human ships. So a human ship design from the 22nd Century suffers from human's need for change and immature design while alien ship designs from the 22nd Century can work in the 25th Century. So a Tier 5 T'Varo is not from the 22nd Century or earlier just its design. The Tier 1 version might very well be from the 22nd Century, but the Tier 5 version was made recently.
I happen to know how to customize a car lol. spent over a year on a 33 Vicky helping a friend do it... well doing it for him lol. Yes it would have been far cheaper just to buy a new car.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
As I said, the mechanical distinctions are pointless. Everything currently on sale in this game, from weapons, to uniforms, to ships, is fan-driven, not logic-driven.
However, they are 25th Century ships designed for mass production. A military doesn't build only the best ships. They build a ton of ships that most of their Captains pilot, then they build their better ships for the Captains that have proven themselves. A military doesn't give their best ships to people that just got into the Captain's seat. They give smaller and less impressive ships to them and send them on less impressive missions until the Captains prove themselves. A Rhode Island at Tier 2 is not the same thing as a Rhode Island at Tier 5. After all, the capabilities and technology of the Tier 2 Rhode Island is less impressive than the Tier 5 version. The Tier 2 Rhode Island might have used off-the-shelf equipment while the Tier 5 Rhode Island would have used state-of-the-art equipment. A military simply doesn't use state-of-the-art equipment on ships that are used by regular Captains, they use it on Captains that have proven themselves. After all, making ships requires resources and no matter how advanced a race is, they will have some economy that determines where resources go. A military can only build a few Tier 5 ships compared to a ton of Tier 2 ships. You simply don't give a Tier 5 ship to someone that is likely going to destroy it in a couple of weeks while it doesn't matter if a Tier 2 ship is destroyed.
The point is there's no mechanical reason to not have T5 versions of every ship in the game. If they can have T5 250 year old D'kyrs they can have T5 150 year old Mirandas. It simply comes down to Cryptic and CBS doing it not about it not being logical for this mish-mash setting.
The problem is that I can see Vulcans going through the trouble of updating a ship from the 22nd Century with 25th Century technology since it is more logical to only create designs for when it is necessary. If Vulcans update their ships to use Quantum Slipstream, then they would need to change the design. However, I can never see humans do the same. It is the whole updating a Model T Ford or Steamship problem with modern technology. Might be cool as a hobby, but we won't ever see a bunch of Model T Fords with V8 Engines on the road or Steamships with modern torpedoes in a military.
Suspension of Disbelief only works so far. We can enjoy Star Trek with technology that might never exist like Warp Travel, Transporters, and Holodecks and have Jem'Hadar, Breen, Liberated Borg, Androids, Holograms, Gorn, and Remans working on the same ship, but having a modified TOS Enterprise going up against the Sovereign is just not believable.
Connie as cruiser - I'll (sorta) buy into that...
Connie as Science vessel vs. Soverign/Oddessy? Well... :cool:
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
What in this game is believable? Is a 125 year old Excelsior being the best Cruiser in the game believable? Does it make sense that it's better, if not at least as good, then a Sovereign or Odyssey? Of course not.
Suspension of disbelieve is subjective and dependent upon the observer. One person is completely fine with a dozen different Starfleet uniforms, rainbow energy weapons, and alien ships used by the Federation everywhere. Another is mortally angered if the polygons are off on the neck and saucer connection. To each their own.
I can get both out of an old car of what you said and todays Tech can be added to a 30s to a 1930 or the Model T.
That is the whole problem right thereCBS doesn't want them as endgame ships, i don't agree with their reasoning, but they make the decissionsCBS doesn't know a thing about Star Trek and its fan base as babyboomers like myself are more into TOS/TMP era while those born after especially Gen X and Y are more into TNG era.
Star Trek was far better before the TNG came along or setting it in the 24C.Gene being Gene as he lousey at making Star Trek.
@jetwtf It maybe cheaper but you it doesn't have the resale value of a older car like Model A.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
There is no way to tell if the person in charge of Star Trek at CBS knows anything about Star Trek without doing some research on them. The simple fact that they are denying access to Tier 5 Constitution seems to imply that they actually care enough about Star Trek to prevent Kirk's ship from being piloted by everyone or they just really hate the Constitution. If they didn't care about Star Trek, then they would have agreed to Tier 5 Constitution and let Cryptic do whatever they want as long as it didn't involve putting Imperial Destroyers in STO or something else that would cause legal problems.
That is merely your opinion. Everyone has their favorite Star Trek series and in their opinion their favorite series is far better than all others. As far as I remember, Gene was only responsible for the first season of TNG, but all seasons of TOS. So if Gene is lousy at making Star Trek, then TOS would be lousy and we wouldn't have TNG and we wouldn't have Star Trek Online.
yes you can do that, but in the real world and in sto budget and resources would be a major limiting factor.
and refitting a model T to have comfort, performance and tech of a modern car would consume a lifetimes savings. Not even mentioning the time of planing would take.
within a preset budget priorities must be made, which simply makes refits too expensive.
and then there are obstacles that can't be just overcome...one would be aerodynamics of a model T doesn't even allow it to reach velocitys modern design can support.
without doing a complete reshape and redesign certain design flaws can't be overcome, which begs the question if the refited design is actually still true to the basic model, which it simply can't be if you want it all in one package.
Not necessarily, I can grab a used 2010 up V8 Camaro and trans with harness and neccessary components for well under ten grand (6-7k), a Strange 10 bolt to keep the power from roaching the rear and needed guages for under 2 grand. Suspension parts are pricier than an off the shelf car from the last 50 years, but not that much more.
Make that car one from the early sixties (Chevy II Nova, A body intermediates etc) and it gets a ton easier, especially for the axle and suspension. Start talking second Gen Camaro/Firebird or G-Body midsizes (The earliest are approaching at or beyond 40 years old).
And this is if I only go with a Gen III-IV small block. People have been using Ford and Chevy small blocks on 30's era Fords for over 40 years now. Start using Vortec headed 86 up (one peice rear main) and L-98 style fuel injection and it drops dramatically and can be made to run straights, carve corners and gas mileage that matches Camaro, Challenger and some applications of Mustang ( weight of the Camaro and Challenger might as well be off the scale).
Model T, maybe not, but they stopped being produced in '27 , start talking about its replacement, the Model A
People have already planned it out for you and its not that expensive. Just an example:
http://www.streetrodgarage.com/suspensionkits-1.aspx
Small block in model A's plus sespension, tires stuff (wouldn take much more work for latest gen fuel injection):
https://www.google.com/search?q=small+block+for+model+a+ford&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=fEc2Uo1qxcS0BqXqgMgG&ved=0CEQQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=799&dpr=1
Aerodynamics? Get a welder and change the rake on the windshield and weld on some lower air slats with sheet metal.
Is it Ferrari beating? No but it can make a 30-60k car owner sweat at the straights and still make it around the corners pretty decent and give econoboxers a run for it.
*major sigh*
I call it, the Stoutes paradox.
yeah old is allways better...car manufacturer need to focus on customizing 50 year old cars instead of producing new ones. that will save the car industry and the planet!
and the evil people at CBS want to destroy the planet by not allowing TOS ships as T5 options in STO.
laser tech won't save the galaxy...only good old gunpowder can do that.
why even bother inventing something new if the old stuff is already better...
(yes, that all was sarcasm)
if there was a tree for every idiot on this planet, the air would be alot cleaner...
There is also the issue that at what point does a modified ship or vehicle can no longer be classified as that ship or vehicle? Replace everything, but the Kitchen Sink in a Miranda and you can't call that as a Miranda anymore. However, replacing the Warp Core with a better one would not be enough of a change to change it to something else. So while there is a possibility of Fleet Light Cruiser Retrofits even if it is 0.00001%, there can't be Tier 5 Mirandas due to the ship being changed too much. It might look like a Miranda, but it won't be a Miranda.
First off, don't call me an idiot, first its a violation of the TOU and second, not the best way to carry on a discussion.
If you had read the whole forum, you would know that I am against a T5 Connie, Miranda, etc. The arguments made automotive-wise was flawed and I was stating facts for the point of correctness, so your sarcasm was wasted. Work with less flawed arguments, know who are talking to (and what side they are on) and learn how to maintain a discussion without resorting to name calling, and you might be able to carry your point.
Irrelevant. The Federation is made up of numerous worlds and races, whose science and expertise are contributed to the whole. Starfleet may be predominately Human, but the technologies behind Starfleet's vessels are not. They are the products of the Federation's best scientific and engineering minds. They are not solely the product of Earth/UESPA R&D.
I doubt that. The same goes for star ships from any era of the Federation.
It took nearly two years to rebuild the Enterprise from the ground up during the big refit after the end of the five year mission. And the Galaxy class had a long, drawn out period between the start of the project and the launch/shakedown of the NCC-1701-D (the new flagship of the Federation). It takes time to develop and build a new class of vessels.
Probably one reason flexibility and ease of adaptability was a hallmark of Starfleet vessels. Building new examples of a proven design, with an inherent adaptability to new technologies, is less time consuming and more cost-effective than trying to develop new designs from scratch.
Mass production implies an assembly line approach to Starfleet's needs. However, something as sophisticated and complex as a starship, like their ocean going cousins of old, cannot be spit out of a factory in droves like a Nissan mini-van or F-22A fighter.
Exactly. However, some people are anal about it for various reasons. None of which stands up to scrutiny, common sense, and the very nature of STO.
CBS said no to a tier five Constitution class from The Original Series. The movie era Constitution class, and other vessels from the films starring the original cast, is fair game for an upgrade. But Cryptic hasn't done so for whatever reason. I just wanted to clarify.
Very good point. And, in all likelyhood, right on the money.
However, Cryptic's marketing folks must not be on the ball, since there are plenty of folks willing to shell out the bread for the chance to fly their faves in the endgame.
The NX in the game is not a retrofit. It's a replica built with 25th Century technology. The Original Series era Constitution, on the other hand, was pulled out of mothballs in limited numbers. The STO NX Replica is actually a more advanced ship than the original configuration Constitution retrofit/refit.
Apples and Oranges, as they say. There is a world of difference between automotive design from the early 20th Century and (fictional) starship designs built for rugged service and long service life in the harshest environment known: space.
And as a former hotrodder, bringing an antique up to modern specs is actually cheaper than restoring it to original. And not that difficult with a well equipped shop and people who know what they are doing (as opposed to "Joe Shade Tree" in his back yard, with his drinking buddies to help out).
Ultimately, these points should settle the debate once for all. Unfortunately, the ones on the "holy crusade" against them being higher tier (or in the game at all) will ignore them in their quest to dictate how the game should played to their "standards".
Let people fly what they want and have fun. That's all that matters in the end.
The idea of immersion in a "canon" environment went down the crapper with this game long ago. So, Cryptic could stand to make some dough off of upgrades for some of these fan favorites.
they could make a 2409 escort the same design.
That is great post and I fully support it!
Gene did nothing and had lots of disgreements it is why DC Fontana was there.Gene made a lot of bad desision when it came to Star Trek.I have right to my opinon as TOS/TMP is my Favourite.
@baudl
This is till being use over 30 years old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roQxxC5TAco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00UdAsbmtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zaa8wsgMek
Refitted 40 year old turbo Beaver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipvtj8Iv3oc
I ma glad some one know about cars around here and besides that the T1 and T2 Miranda and Const. are the same as you see in the TMP epecially TWOK.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Moonves
Sumner is Mr Redstone now retired.
http://www.cbscorporation.com/ourcompany-executives.php?exec=150
I could see if if Cryptis were to sell these ships for Zen then CBS wants some of the credit but if they were free ships then there would be no problem so the ball is in Cryptic and PWE court.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
No he is not he is retired I could show you the letter we got from him if the site I ma on was up but it isn't atm.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
I don't know what you think you read that states he retired, but as of today he is still listed as in charge of CBS and Viacom.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.