Just a quick question. Does anyone have a link to the argument that CBS will not allow a constitution class to be more than tier 1?
Dstahl has several posts on the subject, the first was made on the old forum and so hard to find now. Here's one from the November 2012 Ask Cryptic, though:
Q: (thmichael) Are you going to implement the Ambassador Class at some point? And would it be possible to implement the Old Constitution Class for higher ranks?
Dstahl: Yes. The Ambassador class is coming in 2013. CBS is still pretty adamant about the Old Connie not being an end game ship, but you never know what can happen as time rolls by.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Which has what to do with the post he replied to? You know, the one specifically asking about a Connie.
Fun fact: If there was an Ask Cryptic someone asked for a Constitution, while someone else asked for a T5 fleet cruiser retrofit without the Constitution skin, guess which one they chose to answer?:D
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Which has what to do with the post he replied to? You know, the one specifically asking about a Connie.
Well, first things first, it's not the comment/reply asked for as the person even stated that that particular comment is from the old forums and lost to the ether.
But ... Since this is in the comment:
" but you never know what can happen as time rolls by"
Apparently the whole set of posters who keep saying "CBS said no, so it's a dead issue" are not at all in tune with Cryptic who seem to think that as time goes by, the stance could change.
Someday, someone at CBS is going to cash in on a T5 Connie in this game.
Well, first things first, it's not the comment/reply asked for as the person even stated that that particular comment is from the old forums and lost to the ether.
But ... Since this is in the comment:
" but you never know what can happen as time rolls by"
Apparently the whole set of posters who keep saying "CBS said no, so it's a dead issue" are not at all in tune with Cryptic who seem to think that as time goes by, the stance could change.
Someday, someone at CBS is going to cash in on a T5 Connie in this game.
I've been in enough business meetings and negotiations to know what " but you never know what can happen as time rolls by" means. It's pretty much one of those statements used by someone to make themselves less absolute and open-minded when they really mean "don't hold your breath".
if you take the blinkers off and take two steps back for just a second, you might see that its a solution that gets around both issues.
players get a ship thats directly descended from the old constitution, yet updated as makes sense, and cbs get to keep the ss potkerstart off the frontlines until it finally rusts out.
No one should ever just settle for the Connie family ships. They share all the same capabilities as the Connie refit, their components are all interchangeable. You can even put the original connie warp core in any ship functioning at any level of quality, with any warp core item.
I'm glad this mentality is catching on, the people who just quote only part of CBS's messages are the worst. I can't remember exactly which interview it was but CBS also said STO canon is up to the fans.
[...] similarly to what they did to romulan ships to reflect that the hull design is antiquated and has been replaced by newer designs even if the template is still in use.
What game are you playing?:eek:
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
sure.
but the hull design is still old, the neck & pylons are significant weaknesses in comparison to designs like the nova(if scaled up) for example, issues the Exeter visibly addresses.
The actual age of a hull has nothing to do with a retrofitted ships hardness. The thinness of the neck and pylons are proportionally in line with the ambassador and galaxy class ships. there are ships in STO whose pylons are filled with holes.
The difference in size between a Jem bug and and an Akira class is proportionately bigger than the difference between a connie refit and the galaxy class. There aren't numbers for the biggest science ships, but the Nova is smaller than a Connie refit and we can ballpark science ships to being practically Galaxy class sized.
Just give it a little less HP than any other Star Fleet cruisers and the issue is dealt with appropriately.
This is a reply DStahl gave in Ask Cryptic: May, 2011.
Q: dorko1 I know that the refit is still a touchy subject, but could you guys shed any light on what might happen? I understand that there should be obvious misgivings about the idea of the Constitution class outmatching a vessel 200 yrs new and twice its size, but a replica that's really more of an Excalibur class vessel might be able to add something to the mix.
A: You are correct that it is a touchy subject amongst the community and based on the discussions we've had with CBS about ships, I don't think we're going to put a high-end Constitution Class refit into the game. You can still have a lower tier TOS Connie use the Squad Leader feature to bring their stats up to a higher level, but the odds of an end game Connie refit is a long shot.
So it's easy to see that even 2 years ago CBS was against the idea. Sometime after this DStahl related that it just wasn't going to happen. But as he also said, time changes many minds. It might still happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
As of August 27, 2013 Sumner was still in charge of National Amusements - based on information on a deal he's currently doing with Sony. He's also still listed as the Executive Chairman of the Board of CBS and Viacom on their respective official websites.
I don't know what you think you read that states he retired, but as of today he is still listed as in charge of CBS and Viacom.
Unless you are friend of Mr Redstone and know something I don't then I will believe you.I don't think so and we at STG the head Admin wrote him a letter and got reply back that he was retiring and splitting up Viacom.This happened about 5 years ago.I know more what is going on with Star trek gaming then you will ever know been doing it since 04 playing ST games since 02.
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this one, in which the rom ships take more damage due to inherently lower defence values then their fed or kdf counterparts.
hence why you are more likely to be one-shotted by tac-cubes in a ha'feh warbird than a saber or raptor analogue.
Funny that you bring up the Ha'feh as an "antiquated hull design" considering that it is from the 25th century, while the Klingon and Federation counterparts can be much older.:rolleyes:
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
No one should ever just settle for the Connie family ships. They share all the same capabilities as the Connie refit, their components are all interchangeable. You can even put the original connie warp core in any ship functioning at any level of quality, with any warp core item.
.
The Const. not Connie refit does not have warp core but a coil.you do see it in the Enterprise A.
The Connie is the Constalletion class same ship as the Stagazer is the T3 variant Cmdr.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
Unless you are friend of Mr Redstone and know something I don't then I will believe you.I don't think so and we at STG the head Admin wrote him a letter and got reply back that he was retiring and splitting up Viacom.This happened about 5 years ago.I know more what is going on with Star trek gaming then you will ever know been doing it since 04 playing ST games since 02.
Sumner is still quite active. In fact, 5 years ago he gave an interview to Forbes where he stated he wasn't going to retire for 20-30 more years.
I can also post you to recent links, such as his May, 2013 article in Forbes entitled "still passionate and winning at 90." It's not hard to use Google and see that he's still quite active: such as the deal he's doing with Sony that was hinted about less then a month ago. And as I said, he is still the Chairman of the Board of CBS and Viacom.
He didn't retire 5 years ago. Whatever letter you think you got was just plain wrong. And as far as you knowing more, please, I probably have Trek socks older then you, and I guarantee my MBA hanging on the wall behind me is probably older then you too.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
"proportionally in line with" isnt the same as the strength of the structure due to something called the square cube law.
the constitution will just be a weaker ship through both the engineering of the structure and the metallurgy. regardless of any emotional attachment to it, its still a 140 year old ship design.
same way as the miranda, the basic layout/template is likely still useful, but the engineering of the structure would be too old, and antiquated against the better designs on newer craft.
this game slack of volume based stats is a problem, yes.
something especially noticable in the case of that gods damned roach boat.
nova is half to 2 thirds the volume of the constitution.
sure but thats going to be at least 20% less hp compared to the Exeter to get the point across.
The nova was always smaller than a Connie refit, please stop pretending it's somehow a retcon.
Bringing up square cube law is the best thing I've ever heard in the size argument, it's always nice to hear something new instead of a bunch of derision. The sad fact is that you can't prove square cube law has any effect on STO ship technology or form. A Jem bug and a Nova could both fit in a Galaxy class nacelle but they still have plenty of HP. The range of size and mass is too large for Star Trek ships, it's no excuse for exclusions.
Age03, sorry but Connie is just easier for me to type for some reason, the Constellation class isn't even in the game yet anyways.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
prove? no, deductively infer, yes.
fed ship designs share common design elements for the most part things like the defiant being exceptions but even they can have their designs accounted for. comparing the older constitution against the exeter and there are subtle differences that would make the newer ship more survivable.
Since you brought up no additional points in support of size relating to HP I will assume you have given up the argument. If that wasn't your intent and design is somehow intrinsicly related to size in the equation of HP I will further establish the definitive proof that assumption is incorrect. The bug is smaller than most escorts but has more HP than just a few of the tier 5 tactical ships. The galaxy class is smaller than the Odysee class but it still has more HP. I could technicaly make the argument that less mass gives more HP and have more proof than your side of the argument. Bringing up design in relation to size demands the size/cube qualification be met in the first place and it clearly isn't. After that it's just a question of design.
In your post you brought up the intrinsic problems of the Connie design that would give it less HP than the Exeter. We already know that isn't true because they have the exact same HP. We already know that isn't true because of similar proportions in neck and pylon designs of other tier 5 ships, some even take the point to absurd levels by having holes in the neck or pylons. The D7 class is even smaller than the Connie refit, and has a needle thin neck stretching almost half the length of the entire ship, cube square law isn't stopping that design flaw from giving the ship tier 5 HP. The age in its design isn't either.
i avoid pissing up walls with people that think that to belch assumption is "establish the definitive proof" while failing to realise they are arguing on equally baseless grounds and using bad, often borderline pay-to-win game design, to support their position.
When people admit they have to omit facts from their view to maintain an opinion I can know my work is done. Thanks for contributing.
The KDF uses the D-7 and ktinga because they are not inovative like the fed are. they are fine with the design and give it tech improvements. Fed are entirely different. they come out with new deigns every few years. and while they can update the connie there is no reason to. She is surpassed by too many ships and it's immediate successor the Excel is much easier to refit than her. THe Excel is the closes thing the fed have to Ktinga and the Miranda the fed B'rel. Admittedly starfleet has a fleet of connies in mothballs for use. but that is in the most dire of circumstance when they REALLY need ships. It is simply not cost effective forthe fed to keep the connie active like it is with the KDF.
all player characters in this game where random nobodies put in charge of ships because they where lucky enough to survive the borg boarding their ship(unless that intro is gone?).
that kinda says that the fed is pretty screwed.
there is also the issue that the Exeter, vesper and excaliber already exist to prove the desire for a ship in that weight class aside from the prometheus.
also, arent k'tingas smaller than half the kdf bops, let alone smaller than excells?
FEd is short of officers not ships. 90% of active starfleet has to be gone before they actiate the connie. and the vesper is just a skin. There are SO many Excels in the fleet. It, Miranda, Oberth, are the most produce ships in the fleet. And Ktinga is same size as Connie, B'rel is much smaller, defiant size.
Sumner is still quite active. In fact, 5 years ago he gave an interview to Forbes where he stated he wasn't going to retire for 20-30 more years.
I can also post you to recent links, such as his May, 2013 article in Forbes entitled "still passionate and winning at 90." It's not hard to use Google and see that he's still quite active: such as the deal he's doing with Sony that was hinted about less then a month ago. And as I said, he is still the Chairman of the Board of CBS and Viacom.
He didn't retire 5 years ago. Whatever letter you think you got was just plain wrong. And as far as you knowing more, please, I probably have Trek socks older then you, and I guarantee my MBA hanging on the wall behind me is probably older then you too.
Read this then it is his letter we got on Star Trek Gamers.
I've known about this since June/July. I bet a lot of others dont know though smile
ViaCom, the owners of Paramount and therefore the owners of Star Trek itself is in the middle of a split. The board of ViaCom votes to split the compant into 2 seperate entities, ViaCom and CBS Corp.
The split itself was proposed by the CEO Mr Sumner Redstone and is pencilled in to be completed by the first half of 2006. Shari Redsone, Sumners daughter was announced as a nonexecutive vice chairman of the current Viacom. It is no secret that Mr Redstone himself is in his 80's, so therefore the new companies Viacom and CBS will be led by Viacom co-presidents Tom Freston and Leslie Moonves. Mr Redstone himself has said that in 3 years he will drop his CEO title.
The CBS company will include CBS and UPN networks, Viacom TV station group, Infinity Broadcasting radio unit, Viacom Outdoor, CBS, Paramount and King World TV production operations, Showtime, book publisher Simon & Schuster and Paramount Parks.
The Star Trek franchise will no longer be under the ViaCom banner, it will now be owned by CBS.
Redstone himself has said that the age of the media conglomerate is over, i dont have a lot of respect for that Paramount itself did to the trek franchise, but i have a LOT of respect for Redstone, a man in his 80's who still has the conviction and drive to steer the worlds biggest media conglomerate into it's future.
The future of Star Trek will now more than likely lay in the hands of Leslie Moonves who was quited as saying that star trek neede to be layed to pasture for a decade, looks like Moonves doesnt share Redstones "chance taking" enthusiasm which may start a slow decline in Star Trek franchising and merchandising.
The trek gaming sector itself will of course (hopefully) be on course. STG hopes that in the future, once the dust settles in CBS and ViaCom that we may get an interview with there representative for Star Trek gaming.
As the rest of the trek sites bury there heads in the sand of the MMORPG (with the noteable exception of trek-online who still have some perspective), they forgot to look out the window to see whats actually happening to the people and companies who REALLY matter, not Perpetual or the MMORPG, ViaCom and Lang are the folks who matter. I wish Harry the best of luck in the coming months. I personally heard this will be an easy transition, but a company the size of ViaCom splitting doesnt have "easy" written on it.
You can read that by googling Star Trek Gamers Looking to the future - ViaCom Splits.
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USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
I ma glad some one know about cars around here and besides that the T1 and T2 Miranda and Const. are the same as you see in the TMP epecially TWOK.
there is a difference between "still used" and "still produced". You could have made a reasonable point by stating the 80 year old VW beetle, that was still produced in mexico until 2004. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle_in_Mexico
what you posted are either custom made or collector stuff, or simply used because they are enough for the purpose they are used. In other words, there is no need for something new in that specific circumstance...
If it should happen that those planes crash, they would be replaced with new, more modern planes, because it would be impossible to replace them with a new version of the same plane, simply because they are not made anymore.
Spare parts are not produced anymore, they come exclusively from scrapyards. Technicians to repair it are very, very rare and threatened by extinction.
this are only 2 reasons to abbandon old designs.
another point i'd like to make: A nations military is somewhat bound to keep their tech up to date, simply because of technological leaps that make certain weapons obsolete. Where performance is a major issue, the old stuff gets swept out by the new constantly if it is not refitable.
apparently CBS decided that certain ships in Starfleet are not refitable, i think it is sad, but gives opportunity for new designs, which is also good imo.
Comments
Which has what to do with the post he replied to? You know, the one specifically asking about a Connie.
Fun fact: If there was an Ask Cryptic someone asked for a Constitution, while someone else asked for a T5 fleet cruiser retrofit without the Constitution skin, guess which one they chose to answer?:D
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Well, first things first, it's not the comment/reply asked for as the person even stated that that particular comment is from the old forums and lost to the ether.
But ... Since this is in the comment:
" but you never know what can happen as time rolls by"
Apparently the whole set of posters who keep saying "CBS said no, so it's a dead issue" are not at all in tune with Cryptic who seem to think that as time goes by, the stance could change.
Someday, someone at CBS is going to cash in on a T5 Connie in this game.
I've been in enough business meetings and negotiations to know what " but you never know what can happen as time rolls by" means. It's pretty much one of those statements used by someone to make themselves less absolute and open-minded when they really mean "don't hold your breath".
No one should ever just settle for the Connie family ships. They share all the same capabilities as the Connie refit, their components are all interchangeable. You can even put the original connie warp core in any ship functioning at any level of quality, with any warp core item.
I'm glad this mentality is catching on, the people who just quote only part of CBS's messages are the worst. I can't remember exactly which interview it was but CBS also said STO canon is up to the fans.
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What game are you playing?:eek:
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
The actual age of a hull has nothing to do with a retrofitted ships hardness. The thinness of the neck and pylons are proportionally in line with the ambassador and galaxy class ships. there are ships in STO whose pylons are filled with holes.
The difference in size between a Jem bug and and an Akira class is proportionately bigger than the difference between a connie refit and the galaxy class. There aren't numbers for the biggest science ships, but the Nova is smaller than a Connie refit and we can ballpark science ships to being practically Galaxy class sized.
Just give it a little less HP than any other Star Fleet cruisers and the issue is dealt with appropriately.
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So it's easy to see that even 2 years ago CBS was against the idea. Sometime after this DStahl related that it just wasn't going to happen. But as he also said, time changes many minds. It might still happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Unless you are friend of Mr Redstone and know something I don't then I will believe you.I don't think so and we at STG the head Admin wrote him a letter and got reply back that he was retiring and splitting up Viacom.This happened about 5 years ago.I know more what is going on with Star trek gaming then you will ever know been doing it since 04 playing ST games since 02.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Funny that you bring up the Ha'feh as an "antiquated hull design" considering that it is from the 25th century, while the Klingon and Federation counterparts can be much older.:rolleyes:
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
The Const. not Connie refit does not have warp core but a coil.you do see it in the Enterprise A.
The Connie is the Constalletion class same ship as the Stagazer is the T3 variant Cmdr.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
I can also post you to recent links, such as his May, 2013 article in Forbes entitled "still passionate and winning at 90." It's not hard to use Google and see that he's still quite active: such as the deal he's doing with Sony that was hinted about less then a month ago. And as I said, he is still the Chairman of the Board of CBS and Viacom.
He didn't retire 5 years ago. Whatever letter you think you got was just plain wrong. And as far as you knowing more, please, I probably have Trek socks older then you, and I guarantee my MBA hanging on the wall behind me is probably older then you too.
The nova was always smaller than a Connie refit, please stop pretending it's somehow a retcon.
Bringing up square cube law is the best thing I've ever heard in the size argument, it's always nice to hear something new instead of a bunch of derision. The sad fact is that you can't prove square cube law has any effect on STO ship technology or form. A Jem bug and a Nova could both fit in a Galaxy class nacelle but they still have plenty of HP. The range of size and mass is too large for Star Trek ships, it's no excuse for exclusions.
Age03, sorry but Connie is just easier for me to type for some reason, the Constellation class isn't even in the game yet anyways.
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Since you brought up no additional points in support of size relating to HP I will assume you have given up the argument. If that wasn't your intent and design is somehow intrinsicly related to size in the equation of HP I will further establish the definitive proof that assumption is incorrect. The bug is smaller than most escorts but has more HP than just a few of the tier 5 tactical ships. The galaxy class is smaller than the Odysee class but it still has more HP. I could technicaly make the argument that less mass gives more HP and have more proof than your side of the argument. Bringing up design in relation to size demands the size/cube qualification be met in the first place and it clearly isn't. After that it's just a question of design.
In your post you brought up the intrinsic problems of the Connie design that would give it less HP than the Exeter. We already know that isn't true because they have the exact same HP. We already know that isn't true because of similar proportions in neck and pylon designs of other tier 5 ships, some even take the point to absurd levels by having holes in the neck or pylons. The D7 class is even smaller than the Connie refit, and has a needle thin neck stretching almost half the length of the entire ship, cube square law isn't stopping that design flaw from giving the ship tier 5 HP. The age in its design isn't either.
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Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
When people admit they have to omit facts from their view to maintain an opinion I can know my work is done. Thanks for contributing.
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FEd is short of officers not ships. 90% of active starfleet has to be gone before they actiate the connie. and the vesper is just a skin. There are SO many Excels in the fleet. It, Miranda, Oberth, are the most produce ships in the fleet. And Ktinga is same size as Connie, B'rel is much smaller, defiant size.
Read this then it is his letter we got on Star Trek Gamers.
You can read that by googling Star Trek Gamers Looking to the future - ViaCom Splits.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
there is a difference between "still used" and "still produced". You could have made a reasonable point by stating the 80 year old VW beetle, that was still produced in mexico until 2004. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle_in_Mexico
what you posted are either custom made or collector stuff, or simply used because they are enough for the purpose they are used. In other words, there is no need for something new in that specific circumstance...
If it should happen that those planes crash, they would be replaced with new, more modern planes, because it would be impossible to replace them with a new version of the same plane, simply because they are not made anymore.
Spare parts are not produced anymore, they come exclusively from scrapyards. Technicians to repair it are very, very rare and threatened by extinction.
this are only 2 reasons to abbandon old designs.
another point i'd like to make: A nations military is somewhat bound to keep their tech up to date, simply because of technological leaps that make certain weapons obsolete. Where performance is a major issue, the old stuff gets swept out by the new constantly if it is not refitable.
apparently CBS decided that certain ships in Starfleet are not refitable, i think it is sad, but gives opportunity for new designs, which is also good imo.