Thalaron weapons: The end of the fed-romulan alliance?

darthpetersen

Research on thalaron weapons are forbidden in the federation. The romulan republic is not a part of the federation, but why would the federation tolerate an alliance with a race who has this kind of weapons?

So if the new scimitar has thalaron weapons, the alliance between federation and the romulan republic has to end or has to debate. These weapons are a risk for this alliance.

zarxidejacko

Starfleet now rules under martial law and military never had problem with enough ways to kill enemy.

tc10b

That's rather a good point. I also thought that the RR were against Thalaron weapons. Leaving only the evil Tal Shiar with them.

misterde3

Given the mission texts in "The Vault", the KDF dislikes those weapons as well...not that much of a surprise given there were Klingons that resented B'vat methods like using a Planet killer as a WMD.
Thalaron weapons are the Star Trek equivalent of neutron and chemical weapons, is this another plothole?

angrytarg

Not only that, but the Klingon alliance should also lie in tatters.

It's not the first time that STO contradicts it's own storyline. But it would be the first time they'd care about it as well It's a cash ship. Nothing else matters

lykum

Money is writing the story now if Thalaron pulse rly does become standard equipment. Yay plot device thalaron nasties!

shpoks

"Thalaron weapons: The end of the fed-romulan alliance?"

-You wish!

denizenvi

I've seen some item tooltips that seem to imply the thalaron thing is only a 3-set power. Perhaps other 'charge-up-pulse' attacks are available, similar to how the Kumari ships each have a variant of a cannon power. Presumably it's up to the discretion of the Romulan captains to only use their thalaron pulse on things like Borg cubes where it might be somewhat justifiable.

tc10b

The whole point about the universal ban on those weapons is just that. It's universal.

The story is written with the idea that Thalaron weapons aren't acceptable ever for any reason. (Unless you're an unscrupulous terrorist freedom fighter. But even then.)

zarxidejacko

I only not getting why is it banned? I mean like what does it do what other horrible weapons can not do ? Even disruptors are considered most painful weapons to die from. Making organic matter turn into dust ? What is so bad with that ?

misterde3

zarxidejacko wrote: »

I only not getting why is it banned? I mean like what does it do what other horrible weapons can not do ? Even disruptors are considered most painful weapons to die from. Making organic matter turn into dust ? What is so bad with that ?

I think you need to look up the difference between "Disruptor" and "Varon-t Disruptor".

zarxidejacko

misterde3 wrote: »

I think you need to look up the difference between "Disruptor" and "Varon-t Disruptor".

I know the difference but melting your body from inside like this is still pretty painful i guess Same goes for phase particle weapons, well any weapons.

shpoks

denizenvi wrote: »

I've seen some item tooltips that seem to imply the thalaron thing is only a 3-set power. Perhaps other 'charge-up-pulse' attacks are available, similar to how the Kumari ships each have a variant of a cannon power. Presumably it's up to the discretion of the Romulan captains to only use their thalaron pulse on things like Borg cubes where it might be somewhat justifiable.

It was up to Shinzon's discretion as well. He only planned to use it on Earth, to him it was somewhat justifiable.

That ended well. :rolleyes:

scurry5

Don't know...they might handwave it so that it's a plasma shockwave or something instead. Especially since the blast has to be doing a damage type that is in STO, and thalaron isn't on the current list.

neoakiraii

I believe the mouse is right.

catoblepasbeta

Disruptor deaths may be painful, but they are also fairly instantaneous. Compare that to the one instance we have of Thalaron weapons being used in Trek on-screen with the Romulan Senate. People screaming in agony as black gunk slowly spread across their body. Horrifying, Slow, and excruciatingly slow. Not hard to imagine why the Federation does not like it. It would take a great deal of spite to use something like that on one's opponent, particularly considering there are other weapons out there in Trek that can kill someone just as dead with a whole lot less suffering involved.

And I do see it as a contradiction. There is no way, realistically speaking-that the Federation would be OK with their allies using these weapons, it just would not happen. But IMO Cryptic has made the Romulans into a factions of Drizzts anyways so people get to have a 'dark and edgy' faction without having to actually address moral questions such as the obvious Thalaron issue, so at least it's consistent.

shaanithegreen

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

But IMO Cryptic has made the Romulans into a factions of Drizzts anyways so people get to have a 'dark and edgy' faction without having to actually address moral questions such as the obvious Thalaron issue, so at least it's consistent.

All Drow are a sweaty nerd fantasy.

As for thalaron, the Federation and the Klingons have banned it, but the Romulans never did.

I can't imagine people would raise too many eyebrows if it was only used against the Borg or maybe the Undine (and it would DESTROY the Undine).

sunfrancks

Id say that the Federation and KDF would be more interested in the pacifists having Scimitar class warships.

Why do peaceful Romulans need a fleet of these, other than to get back to the old RSE

catoblepasbeta

shaanithegreen wrote: »

All Drow are a sweaty nerd fantasy.

As for thalaron, the Federation and the Klingons have banned it, but the Romulans never did.

I can't imagine people would raise too many eyebrows if it was only used against the Borg or maybe the Undine (and it would DESTROY the Undine).

I agree about Drow in general. But I reserve a special cask of hatred for occasions when the Drizzt situation arises. Someone linked me a webcomic a few months ago that I think explains my dislike for such practices (last three panels relevant):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html

Well, the undine are also sentient, so the same federation restrictions would likely apply. And lets be honest here, it is very unlikely that these weapons would be used solely against those two targets. In the episodes, Obisek himself states his intention to use them on civilian targets.

The Federation lose it when people bring up Biogenic weapons. Can't imagine they would react any better to one of their allies resorting to flesh eating radiation weapons.

malkarris

Well look at subspace weapons, a banned weapon in the Federation, but used by the Son'a, and the Son'a and the Federation were allied at one point in time. So, I think a certain amount of real-politik (sp?) is going on here.

I think that you could probably sum it up like this. D'Tan is not an idiot, he knows that he needs the help of the Federation and the Klingon Empire to survive if he doesn't want to be swallowed up by the Feds, the Klingons, or what is left of the Romulan Empire. Take a look at the Romulan Republic, its basically a one planet government at this point in time. So, he has two strings to his bow. One is playing the Federation and the Klingon Empire off on each other. They will both help him grow his government and take a small piece of the pie (Romulan Technology) so that they prevent the other from taking over and taking all of the pie. The other is Thalaron weapons. They are D'Tan's nuke, his hole card, though like current day nukes, he know that if he uses them whole sale, he will be destroyed. So, he hoards them, and keeps a few in the Scimitars as his insurance that if anything does happen to the Republic, those ships will see to it that whoever did it will not survive to enjoy it.

vonhellsting

darthpetersen wrote: »

Research on thalaron weapons are forbidden in the federation. The romulan republic is not a part of the federation, but why would the federation tolerate an alliance with a race who has this kind of weapons?

So if the new scimitar has thalaron weapons, the alliance between federation and the romulan republic has to end or has to debate. These weapons are a risk for this alliance.

Ambassador the better question is why would the Romulans tolerate the Federation who have clearly been building weapons of mass destruction unparalleled in galactic history! Our intelligent have informed us of a weapons project known as the Genesis project capable of destroying whole planets for recolonization by the federation and you have the audacity to claim we are the villains? You have violated Romulan treaties and built cloaking devices made alliances with the Borg and now you condemn the Romulans who are only trying to protect our people with the most dire of measures. You sir are a hypocrite and I demand a public apology to the Romulan people for this outrage!:mad:



That said I think the Federation is more concerned about it being used on civilian targets than military ones but who knows.:)

a3001

darthpetersen wrote: »

The romulan republic is not a part of the federation, but why would the federation tolerate an alliance with a race who has this kind of weapons?

Would the Prime Directive come into play, however? AFAIK, the Prime Directive forbids the Federation from "putting their fingers in everyone's pies", and telling the Republic that they can't use so and so weapon in their arsenal could qualify as such.

sunfrancks wrote: »

Id say that the Federation and KDF would be more interested in the pacifists having Scimitar class warships.

Why do peaceful Romulans need a fleet of these, other than to get back to the old RSE

Lets see....there's the Borg, Undine, Elachi, Tal Shiar/ RSE, and if the need arises, everyone else. Just because you're a pacifist doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a pushover or a doormat. Consider the Scimitar dreadnoughts as a weapon of last resort with a no first use policy attached to it.

dm19delta

zarxidejacko wrote: »

I only not getting why is it banned? I mean like what does it do what other horrible weapons can not do ? Even disruptors are considered most painful weapons to die from. Making organic matter turn into dust ? What is so bad with that ?

Because a disruptor doesn't eliminate life on a planetary scale with relatively little effort.

I was always under the impression that Shinzon's Scimitar was a unique ship because he had the thalaron generator installed. It makes more sense to me that since the Scimitar was designed to fight the Dominion, a massive plasma shockwave weapon would be the weapon of choice. Then again, the Romulans aren't known for killing enemies humanely.

mimey2

a3001 wrote: »

Would the Prime Directive come into play, however? AFAIK, the Prime Directive forbids the Federation from "putting their fingers in everyone's pies", and telling the Republic that they can't use so and so weapon in their arsenal could qualify as such.

Well, Prime Directive means that they won't interfere (except through Section 31 of course) with the Romulan Republic.

That said, D'tan has free game with the Scimitar class, and by extension the Thalaron weapon IF, in the treaties he signed, there was no clause, paragraph, or section about them.

Or in other words: If the Federation and Klingon Empire didn't purposefully add in a bit about the RR 'not using, or researching the usage of Thalaron weaponry', then it's free game for em.

Now the Federation and Klingon Empire may not LIKE that D'tan will have usage of such weapons, but unless they feel like going to war about it (or using subterfuge, which will probably lead to war), then there isn't much that can be done by them.

shaanithegreen

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

I agree about Drow in general. But I reserve a special cask of hatred for occasions when the Drizzt situation arises

Drizzt is still the best thing that ever happened to the Drow, despite being a pretty terrible character.

That said, the comparison to the RR is ridiculous, and I wish the people who hate the Republic would make up their minds rather or not they are "cuddly wuddly space Bajorans who don't resemble my beloved 2-dimensional mustache twirling villains AT ALL" or "edgyyyyyyy and that means bad because".

Well, the undine are also sentient, so the same federation restrictions would likely apply.

Who cares about Federation restrictions? Are they going to go to war over thalaron weapons? Probably not. If they did, they'd have gone to war with the Tal Shiar, Obisek, and that one colony that had a thalaron bomb powerful enough to wipe out their entire planet.

The weapons are already out there. We see them plenty of times. If they have to exist (and they do), I'm sure the Federation would rather they be in the hands of a democratic republic that is allied with them, and who will use them as a last resort, instead of proliferating among random colonists and terrorists.

msk5

Thalaron research wasn't banned because of its power or its destructive potential, it was banned because of its instability. Who knows how many Remans died in the experiments to create the first Scimitar? The biogenic properties were incredibly dangerous for any and all working on any Thalaron project, however the Romulans, since Shinzon, seem to have figured Thalaron weaponry out, and can manufacture them without unnecessary danger. It makes sense that the Republic wouldn't just throw away a weapon that could be immeasurably useful, especially against, say, the Borg.

If they aren't going to blow up any of their own planets while building the things, I don't think the Feds and KDF have a problem with the Republic fielding a limited number of ship-mounted thalaron weapons.

newromulan1

Can someone explain the difference betwwen a normal weapon that vapourizes someone - which starfleet and the KDF use - and- the thalaron which does the same thing? There smaller weapons could also be set to vapourize whole buildings as stated it the show.

is it just the scale issue? - so starfleet is ok with smaller WMD's - just not large WMD's?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gFq-37a7pk0&feature=endscreen

newromulan1

Hope you have all heard the song that explains what they do in Star Trek:


Caution profanity:

USS Make S**t Up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUx2C7Pn7ZE

captsol

Heh, implying that something that you pay RL money for will ever be affected by the in-universe fiction. The Scimitar and its Thalaron weapon being used by Romulan Republic characters will never have any bearing on the in-universe game. That would make no sense and lose Cryptic money.

misterde3

newromulan1 wrote: »

Can someone explain the difference betwwen a normal weapon that vapourizes someone - which starfleet and the KDF use - and- the thalaron which does the same thing? There smaller weapons could also be set to vapourize whole buildings as stated it the show.

is it just the scale issue? - so starfleet is ok with smaller WMD's - just not large WMD's?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gFq-37a7pk0&feature=endscreen

The scale, a single ship in orbit cn wipe out a whole planet
But also that it works only on organic matter.
That means you can use it indiscriniately on a planet and then just take it afterwards.

rattler2

Thalaron might be considered the equivelent of Mustard Gas or any other bio/chem weapon today. Banned by everyone because it doesn't discriminate. ANYONE caught in the blast radius is toast. In some ways... Thalaron is WORSE than Subspace Weapons. And the original Scimitar was, in my eyes, designed as a FIRST STRIKE weapon, alot like the Red October from, well... The Hunt for Red October. Now... current Scimitar class ships fielded by the RR might have had the tech replaced with more conventional weapons as some people are suggesting, a plasma blast uberweapon, which would be acceptable by the other superpowers.