Oh sorry, I got Maxwell mixed up with Ross (although the former isn't all that bad).
That being said, it seems to be something of a 50/50 chance that a named Starfleet admiral will turn out to be nuts.
Maxwell had his screws loose, but the episode he appeared in was structured in such a way so as to make his position entirely understandable (and through the later lens of the Maquis and DS9 arcs, he was probably right the whole time).
To be fair, I don't think the "bonkers guest officer" is rank specific. If you didn't come from the "host ship" (Enterprise, DS9/Defiant, etc) there was a very good chance you had serious issues of one sort or another.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
granted, he was barely ever seen onscreen, but i don't remember him ever being classed as 'bonkers'
It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list by any means, but I agree. From what little I remember (I haven't rewatched VOY recently) he was more of a counterpoint for various crew members (usually Tom) to play off of than a "crazy old man" type character.
But from a story standpoint, it is equally acceptable to state that Starfleet does not have nearly as much experience operating cloaking devices as those two, and have had trouble integrating them on their ships.
Yeah... that's an excuse that could last all of 6 months. And that's being generous.
The Federation already has experience in placing cloaking devices on their ships and they have hundreds of years of case history available for their engineers to use in figuring these devices out.
It could also be said that the Federation has decided not to invest into cloaking devices, for the same reasons why they do not pursue development of technology that they may consider underhanded (and all things considered, a cloaking device is rather shady). That being said, I don't think that Starfleet should be completely deprived of cloaking devices, and that the whole "phase cloak" thing shown in TNG should make an appearance.
And that's an excuse that loses any punch when you realize that not having that strategic option means men and women die. Smug moral superiority is nice and all, but lives are on the line.
As for a game mechanics standpoint, I think it's just another case of "why does he have that, I want one too".
I guess it could seem that way, if you're silly enough to let yourself get locked into an 'us/them' dichotomy. Since I play both factions I have a different perspective.
And that's an excuse that loses any punch when you realize that not having that strategic option means men and women die. Smug moral superiority is nice and all, but lives are on the line.
You could argue for pragmatism over ethicality as a character but you'd no doubt find some meddlesome do-gooder to argue against you. You'd be like WHATEVER IT TAKES
and they'd be all WE CAN'T ABANDON OUR IDEALS
and meanwhile dozens if not hundreds of federation ships are already floating around with cloaks so ???
Well the question is what the story reason is for the Feds not having a cloaking device, and it's political. Hence the presidents and admirals.
My thought has been and still is that extensive cloaking makes the KDF distinct as a faction, and the choice to keep it that way can and should be justified in the writing. If real-person gameplay suffers because a bunch of make-believe people choose to do something the tail is sort of wagging the dog.
Well the answer to why the UFP does not "use" cloaking devices is...(and this may of already been stated)...
The Treaty of Algeron - In 2311, with the signing of the Treaty of Algeron, the Federation explicitly agreed not to develop or use cloaking technology.
Gene Roddenberry indicated in various interviews that "our heroes don't sneak around", indicating that the Federation made a conscious decision to not develop cloaking technology.
Although most sources would argue that the Treaty was nullified as was the Neutral Zone when Romulus was destroyed...
Admiral Jisil T'ror Admiral Sovak Does anyone remember when we used to be explorers...
The thing is, the strategic consequences of the cloaking device are vastly overrated by its proponents. It's just not that useful. Moreover, the Federation already has extensive experience operating without one.
The political consequences of beginning to use them (regardless of the technical feasibility) outweigh the very minor strategic consequences.
The thing is, the strategic consequences of the cloaking device are vastly overrated by its proponents. It's just not that useful. Moreover, the Federation already has extensive experience operating without one.
The political consequences of beginning to use them (regardless of the technical feasibility) outweigh the very minor strategic consequences.
What political consequences?
Who's going to object? The Star Empire? They're already at war with everyone. New Romulus? They have no qualms about selling all their other tech to the most proficient bunny chasers of Starfleet and the KDF, would cloaking really matter to them?
What political consequences?
Who's going to object? The Star Empire? They're already at war with everyone. New Romulus? They have no qualms about selling all their other tech to the most proficient bunny chasers of Starfleet and the KDF, would cloaking really matter to them?
It's not a KDF concept, it's how it worked in the shows..... And to be honest I have no problem with the KDF having a Bad TRIBBLE version of the cloaking device, i just think it should work like it does in canon. Like i said earlier, I'd be all for the KDF getting the advanced battle cloak as a starting version and getting a better cloak for their higher levels, in fact think they should as well as the romulans, I'd even be okay with a bigger debuff for Feds after being hit when cloaked, i just think it should work like it did in the show.
When it comes down to it, the TV series canon is more like a set of. . .guidelines, rather than actual rules.
When I say 'KDF concept', I mean 'it was originally an exclusive to the KDF faction in STO, until it was peddled off to greedy Federation players'. A prominent example of this is the carrier class. Other examples feature universal consoles that were 'traded', usually for access to less-useful Federation consoles.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
You want the story answer or the game mechanics answer? Not sure, allrighty, I'll give you both.
From a story standpoint, it is irresponsible, immoral and unethical to allow the KDF and RSE to hold a tactical advantage that will cost the Federation lives in both their wars with those powers and in their dealings with larger threats. The treaties and alliances that served as a counter point to this, giving the Federation reason to abstain from that research, are no longer compelling because they are legally dubious in the case of the Khitomer Accords or non-existent, in the case of an alliance with the Klingon Empire.
From a game mechanics standpoint. People want to be able to experience all the positives the game has to offer without having to put up with the negatives. For some players a positive is a battle cloaking ship and a negative are the abrasive whiners that seem to fill the ranks of the KDF. For other players a positive is a five forward firing glass cannon with five consoles, and a negative would be the abrasive whiners that seem to fill the ranks of the Federation.
I wouldn't say the KDF has 'abrasive whiners'. More like 'overzealous enthusiasts' who don't like seeing the KDF left in the dust. The KDF faction actually has reasons to complain, and as long as those reasons remain, the 'whining' will continue. There's nothing else we can friggin do.
The Federation has the greedy pigs/whiners. The faction has been getting a new ship every 2 months or so, and all they can do is 'suggest' that they be given more firepower and whatnot. Just look at the whining about cruisers. Instead of playing the faction that has the cruiser type they actually want, they instead want to throw even more factional imbalance into the system by buffing their cruisers.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
The hostility of certain Klingon players does nothing to help their cause and makes it very difficult to take their issues seriously. Star Trek has always been about the future of humanity. Other races were defined by how they interacted with humans, be they allies or enemies, they were supporting cast, never the main stars of the show and no amount of flaming rhetoric is going to change that fact.
That said, different factions have different strengths and different weaknesses, that is the way it has always been and that is the way it should remain. The Federation does not need to have every item of technology that another faction has any more than that faction needs to have everything that the Federation has, it isn't necessary and it diminishes the game wherever it is allowed.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
When it comes down to it, the TV series canon is more like a set of. . .guidelines, rather than actual rules.
When I say 'KDF concept', I mean 'it was originally an exclusive to the KDF faction in STO, until it was peddled off to greedy Federation players'. A prominent example of this is the carrier class. Other examples feature universal consoles that were 'traded', usually for access to less-useful Federation consoles.
That seems a little TOO heavily biased to really lend any credibility to your argument. To be honest the feds already have cloak, both in and out of game. What i'd like personally is two things: for the cloak to be battle cloak at it's basest level because that's how it was in the shows and movies. I'd be more than willing to succeed a lot of things in regards to cloak for that. As for the other thing it's that there have been numerous advancements in technology and this should be reflected in each factions Advanced Cloaking.
Truth be told, with the third faction coming soon being one that is more deserving of a cloak as well as a version better than the Klingons, will the klingons be whining for a cloak to match up with the romulans? During a war between 3 factions, two of which using advanced cloaking technology, why would the third not follow suit? With how much the Fed players are asking for it now, can you imagine how much they're going to want it with another faction having it as well? How much harder will it be for Cryptic to justify not letting them have it at that point?
Regardless of what KDF players want, it won't go away and frankly adding a second cloak capable faction is only going to make it more of an issue.
I'm not really sure how that's running with my ball and again it's sounding to biased and angry not too mention that it sounds more like the KDF didn't sacrifice anything as it never had those things to begin with.
I've already listed a few ideas towards making it fair and more advanced, but i'd gladly give up the fifth console, I'd gladly allow the klingon ships to be upped stat wise, but that's not the argument i was making. If you're bitter about something by all means go ahead but don't start getting crazy on the forums over it as it's really not going to help your argument.
I'm not advocating buffing the fed cloak to make it OP, i've even said add a bigger Debuff when cloaked. All i'm saying is that
A: all cloak should be activated at will like battle cloak (since clarification is needed apparently)
B: There should be a faction specific advanced cloak for each faction based on the fact that the cloaking technology was already out dated by DS9 anyway.
As for going through a mine field, i'm not really sure why you would do that with out shields... it just seems silly.
The member races of the Federation would object to a technology designed to protect the lives of their young officers serving on starships?
What?
The Ferengi.
Why would the Ferengi care?
What would the Ferengi do about it if they did? Stop trading with the Federation and drastically reduce their own profits for no reason?
Even though there have been a few ships/prototypes its not really in the personality of the Federation, guys that love to run around brandishing their 'white hats' so everyone can see them, to have a more widespread use of cloaking technology that what we have currently.
There are too many opportunities to cloak during PvP and PvE, I can see the battle cloak being used more frequently than a standard cloak (which should be used to in the initiation of combat, not as much as we see it in game), but only lighter raider ships should be able to cloak approximately more than once in combat.
The decision in ST3 to change the enemy race from Romulans to Klingons and not change the script to accommodation has taken some of the spirit of the Klingons as "proud warriors". While it might be smarter to be stealth and elusive, a "loud and proud" race such as the Klingons don't wear the cloaking devices as well as the; cold, calculating and stab-the-enemy-in-the-back Romulan tradition.
The member races of the Federation would object to a technology designed to protect the lives of their young officers serving on starships?
What?
Why would the Ferengi care?
What would the Ferengi do about it if they did? Stop trading with the Federation and drastically reduce their own profits for no reason?
Why would they care?
Member races could object on ethical principles. I'm pretty sure that has been done in the past for lesser reasons than widespread use of cloaking devices.
They, the Ferengi, and non-aligned races could also object to the fact that suddenly, their big friendly neighbour has a fleet of ships that could sneak around doing who-knows-what.
Then there's the fact that well, the Federation has a strange sense of honour. You only need to recall how they dealt with the situation regarding colonization on the Federation-Cardassian border.
Member races could object on ethical principles. I'm pretty sure that has been done in the past for lesser reasons than widespread use of cloaking devices.
What is unethical about a cloaking device used for recon and defence?
They, the Ferengi, and non-aligned races could also object to the fact that suddenly, their big friendly neighbour has a fleet of ships that could sneak around doing who-knows-what.
What next? Maybe they should demand that all Federation ships fly around with no weapons and shields to prove they're friendly?
I was unaware that "Federation principles" means "be your annoying neighbour's personal *****"
Then there's the fact that well, the Federation has a strange sense of honour. You only need to recall how they dealt with the situation regarding colonization on the Federation-Cardassian border.
You taken many of our unique consoles, you can wield our bat'leths, hell you don't even need to be in the KDF to play as a kilingon, even took some of our faction only missions, and you can do all these things simply because you wanted them. Now you want our cloaks? What about our uniforms, you want them too? Why not just give you access to Qo'noS while we are at it? Want a Bird of Prey, sure why not.
You Feds will not be satisfied until you've taken every unique item the KDF has. You have a game company that caters to you, gives you more ships, more missions, more content, and yet that still isn't enough for you. You have to come and try to pick off whatever is left of the KDF.
Leave my unique stuff alone. You want a cloak create a kdf toon. Its not like you don't have one farming dil anyway.
What is unethical about a cloaking device used for recon and defence?
Look, even if you assume there are no diplomatic concerns with the Federation using cloaking technology (obviously silly), the long and short of it is that it's not really useful. The Federation is not in a position to make effective strategic or tactical use of the cloaking device other than very particular edge cases (the Defiant running into the Gamma Quadrant to spy on the founders, and even there its effectiveness was arguably dubious).
The Klingons know this. The Romulans know this. The only people who apparently don't understand the massive strategic limitations of the cloaking device are the people on the STO forums.
1 its cowardly and will lead to officers being seen as chicken
2 it will encourage piracy as all fed captains will be tempted
3 it causes MPB (male pattern baldness)
4 it is well known that ships with cloaks flown by humans blow up or crash into asteroids
5 It has been proven that federation officers who command cloaked ships violate the prime directive casually
6 Cloaked ships burn power which could be better used
7 I said so
1 its cowardly and will lead to officers being seen as chicken
2 it will encourage piracy as all fed captains will be tempted
3 it causes MPB (male pattern baldness)
4 it is well known that ships with cloaks flown by humans blow up or crash into asteroids
5 It has been proven that federation officers who command cloaked ships violate the prime directive casually
6 Cloaked ships burn power which could be better used
7 I said so
7 is not an acceptable reason, and 3, 4 and 5 are just silly, while 2 is debatable, but 1 and 6 are definitely true
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
Oh sorry, I got Maxwell mixed up with Ross (although the former isn't all that bad).
That being said, it seems to be something of a 50/50 chance that a named Starfleet admiral will turn out to be nuts.
Maxwell had his screws loose, but the episode he appeared in was structured in such a way so as to make his position entirely understandable (and through the later lens of the Maquis and DS9 arcs, he was probably right the whole time).
To be fair, I don't think the "bonkers guest officer" is rank specific. If you didn't come from the "host ship" (Enterprise, DS9/Defiant, etc) there was a very good chance you had serious issues of one sort or another.
what about Admiral Paris?
granted, he was barely ever seen onscreen, but i don't remember him ever being classed as 'bonkers'
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list by any means, but I agree. From what little I remember (I haven't rewatched VOY recently) he was more of a counterpoint for various crew members (usually Tom) to play off of than a "crazy old man" type character.
The Federation already has experience in placing cloaking devices on their ships and they have hundreds of years of case history available for their engineers to use in figuring these devices out.
And that's an excuse that loses any punch when you realize that not having that strategic option means men and women die. Smug moral superiority is nice and all, but lives are on the line.
I guess it could seem that way, if you're silly enough to let yourself get locked into an 'us/them' dichotomy. Since I play both factions I have a different perspective.
You could argue for pragmatism over ethicality as a character but you'd no doubt find some meddlesome do-gooder to argue against you. You'd be like WHATEVER IT TAKES
and they'd be all WE CAN'T ABANDON OUR IDEALS
and meanwhile dozens if not hundreds of federation ships are already floating around with cloaks so ???
:rolleyes:
My thought has been and still is that extensive cloaking makes the KDF distinct as a faction, and the choice to keep it that way can and should be justified in the writing. If real-person gameplay suffers because a bunch of make-believe people choose to do something the tail is sort of wagging the dog.
The Treaty of Algeron - In 2311, with the signing of the Treaty of Algeron, the Federation explicitly agreed not to develop or use cloaking technology.
Gene Roddenberry indicated in various interviews that "our heroes don't sneak around", indicating that the Federation made a conscious decision to not develop cloaking technology.
Although most sources would argue that the Treaty was nullified as was the Neutral Zone when Romulus was destroyed...
Admiral Sovak
Does anyone remember when we used to be explorers...
The political consequences of beginning to use them (regardless of the technical feasibility) outweigh the very minor strategic consequences.
R.I.P
What political consequences?
Who's going to object? The Star Empire? They're already at war with everyone. New Romulus? They have no qualms about selling all their other tech to the most proficient bunny chasers of Starfleet and the KDF, would cloaking really matter to them?
Member races of the Federation.
The Ferengi.
Any other nonaligned races.
All Good Things and Endgame and in Endgame we see that even shuttles are equipped with this kind of technology.
Even if you don't allow the cloak to be used on other ships make it a build in ability again for both the Defiant and the Galaxy-X.
When it comes down to it, the TV series canon is more like a set of. . .guidelines, rather than actual rules.
When I say 'KDF concept', I mean 'it was originally an exclusive to the KDF faction in STO, until it was peddled off to greedy Federation players'. A prominent example of this is the carrier class. Other examples feature universal consoles that were 'traded', usually for access to less-useful Federation consoles.
I wouldn't say the KDF has 'abrasive whiners'. More like 'overzealous enthusiasts' who don't like seeing the KDF left in the dust. The KDF faction actually has reasons to complain, and as long as those reasons remain, the 'whining' will continue. There's nothing else we can friggin do.
The Federation has the greedy pigs/whiners. The faction has been getting a new ship every 2 months or so, and all they can do is 'suggest' that they be given more firepower and whatnot. Just look at the whining about cruisers. Instead of playing the faction that has the cruiser type they actually want, they instead want to throw even more factional imbalance into the system by buffing their cruisers.
That said, different factions have different strengths and different weaknesses, that is the way it has always been and that is the way it should remain. The Federation does not need to have every item of technology that another faction has any more than that faction needs to have everything that the Federation has, it isn't necessary and it diminishes the game wherever it is allowed.
That seems a little TOO heavily biased to really lend any credibility to your argument. To be honest the feds already have cloak, both in and out of game. What i'd like personally is two things: for the cloak to be battle cloak at it's basest level because that's how it was in the shows and movies. I'd be more than willing to succeed a lot of things in regards to cloak for that. As for the other thing it's that there have been numerous advancements in technology and this should be reflected in each factions Advanced Cloaking.
Truth be told, with the third faction coming soon being one that is more deserving of a cloak as well as a version better than the Klingons, will the klingons be whining for a cloak to match up with the romulans? During a war between 3 factions, two of which using advanced cloaking technology, why would the third not follow suit? With how much the Fed players are asking for it now, can you imagine how much they're going to want it with another faction having it as well? How much harder will it be for Cryptic to justify not letting them have it at that point?
Regardless of what KDF players want, it won't go away and frankly adding a second cloak capable faction is only going to make it more of an issue.
I've already listed a few ideas towards making it fair and more advanced, but i'd gladly give up the fifth console, I'd gladly allow the klingon ships to be upped stat wise, but that's not the argument i was making. If you're bitter about something by all means go ahead but don't start getting crazy on the forums over it as it's really not going to help your argument.
I'm not advocating buffing the fed cloak to make it OP, i've even said add a bigger Debuff when cloaked. All i'm saying is that
A: all cloak should be activated at will like battle cloak (since clarification is needed apparently)
B: There should be a faction specific advanced cloak for each faction based on the fact that the cloaking technology was already out dated by DS9 anyway.
As for going through a mine field, i'm not really sure why you would do that with out shields... it just seems silly.
The member races of the Federation would object to a technology designed to protect the lives of their young officers serving on starships?
What?
Why would the Ferengi care?
What would the Ferengi do about it if they did? Stop trading with the Federation and drastically reduce their own profits for no reason?
Why would they care?
I'm pretty sure he also wouldn't have wanted the Federation protagonist to have an innocent man assassinated no matter what the reason. And yet..
Even though there have been a few ships/prototypes its not really in the personality of the Federation, guys that love to run around brandishing their 'white hats' so everyone can see them, to have a more widespread use of cloaking technology that what we have currently.
There are too many opportunities to cloak during PvP and PvE, I can see the battle cloak being used more frequently than a standard cloak (which should be used to in the initiation of combat, not as much as we see it in game), but only lighter raider ships should be able to cloak approximately more than once in combat.
The decision in ST3 to change the enemy race from Romulans to Klingons and not change the script to accommodation has taken some of the spirit of the Klingons as "proud warriors". While it might be smarter to be stealth and elusive, a "loud and proud" race such as the Klingons don't wear the cloaking devices as well as the; cold, calculating and stab-the-enemy-in-the-back Romulan tradition.
Member races could object on ethical principles. I'm pretty sure that has been done in the past for lesser reasons than widespread use of cloaking devices.
They, the Ferengi, and non-aligned races could also object to the fact that suddenly, their big friendly neighbour has a fleet of ships that could sneak around doing who-knows-what.
Then there's the fact that well, the Federation has a strange sense of honour. You only need to recall how they dealt with the situation regarding colonization on the Federation-Cardassian border.
What is unethical about a cloaking device used for recon and defence?
What next? Maybe they should demand that all Federation ships fly around with no weapons and shields to prove they're friendly?
I was unaware that "Federation principles" means "be your annoying neighbour's personal *****"
Past idiocy does not justify present idiocy.
You Feds will not be satisfied until you've taken every unique item the KDF has. You have a game company that caters to you, gives you more ships, more missions, more content, and yet that still isn't enough for you. You have to come and try to pick off whatever is left of the KDF.
Leave my unique stuff alone. You want a cloak create a kdf toon. Its not like you don't have one farming dil anyway.
Look, even if you assume there are no diplomatic concerns with the Federation using cloaking technology (obviously silly), the long and short of it is that it's not really useful. The Federation is not in a position to make effective strategic or tactical use of the cloaking device other than very particular edge cases (the Defiant running into the Gamma Quadrant to spy on the founders, and even there its effectiveness was arguably dubious).
The Klingons know this. The Romulans know this. The only people who apparently don't understand the massive strategic limitations of the cloaking device are the people on the STO forums.
1 its cowardly and will lead to officers being seen as chicken
2 it will encourage piracy as all fed captains will be tempted
3 it causes MPB (male pattern baldness)
4 it is well known that ships with cloaks flown by humans blow up or crash into asteroids
5 It has been proven that federation officers who command cloaked ships violate the prime directive casually
6 Cloaked ships burn power which could be better used
7 I said so
7 is not an acceptable reason, and 3, 4 and 5 are just silly, while 2 is debatable, but 1 and 6 are definitely true
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"