Force Stealth Nerf

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Oneji - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Cool Stuff

*gets mental image of sin mumbling rap lyrics and jotting them down on a notepad while stalking someone*

Montcalm - Archosaur

Montcalm - Archosaur wrote: »

Hi ive been reading all the ideas and have been thinking... A really realistic way to make stealth less cheap is to make it so that when you are in steath your speed is halved. It would work great since not only does it prevent the sin from just popping up out of stealth near you and kicking your **** (since you can just go away and they cant really follow you)it also makes the assassin less willing to use it because its more mana and more time for the same distance. Just an idea tho.

I dont think anyone actually listened to this suggestion so im quoting it to say it again since i think it was a good idea. Plus making it take away a spark instead of gaining one was another good point i saw.

Malego - Heavens Tear

Stealth cutting your speed in half is the best way to do it. You are trying to sneak up on someone right? You have to move trying not to make any noise so they won't notice you.

Montcalm - Archosaur

Thank you for the agreement. Im glad you see my point. Maybe I should suggest it.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Nah, it wouldn't be even realistic, to walk slowly to keep ourselves hidden is what common people do, since we're not experts. Real experts on keeping themself hidden and spy, can move as fast as they can without making any noise. In fact, ninjas was expert on doing that. This is the only idea I really like:

Directive - Sanctuary wrote: »

...Implement a genie skill, similar to Frenzy, in that it increases the caster's detection level for a short period of time based on the genie's level and/or the amount of points vested on an attribute. For example, cap the detect level increase at 15 for the maxed version of the skill and every X amount of Y attribute adds 1 more level.

The numbers may be too low or too high, but you get the rough idea.

This, plus a detection pot could allow any character to detect assassins many lvls higher than them. Even so, I believe that detection pots are a pretty fair way to counteract Shadow Escape already. It shouldn't be impossible, but it should be hard to detect an assassin when in stealth mode, and I believe that those detection pots are as hard to get as they should be.

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver

You realize that Detection pots give to +20 detection for 15 seconds right? So, pretty much if you THINK one is following you, you can detect any Assassin of your level for 15 seconds . . .

Not to mention they are quite expensive, and the Genie skill doesn't sound that good (don't people need Genie's to SURVIVE a sin attack, so destroying your genie skills and putting an Amp on you would help how?)

Also, while in reality people might be able to move quietly and quickly, in ANY fantasy based RPG I've played, moving in some sort of stealth mode has always resulted in a movement penalty (well, except Invisibility spells, but that's magic and Assassin's aren't a magic class)

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

have you worn, if not ever at all considered, light armor? it sucks, it sucks BADLY. arcane classes get more defense than LA users for christ's sake! how fair do you think it that is? this is why they have skills to try and mitigate the weakness of LA. otherwise, they'd easily be trampled underfoot in one shot by any wizard with a decent refine, or HA classes for that matter.

***, so you have one skill that makes you stand out in one, ONE, type of pvp. 1v1, and that makes it overpowered? assassins are horribad in group pvp, they're jokes in tw, they need one outstanding aspect to make them worth PVPing on. taking away their safety precautions is like the devs taking away stone barrier and undine.

anything can be one shot in theory, I use light armor and assassins are the least of my worries unless they are packing +12 weaponry. LA is fine but the assassins force me into fox form more than I would be if they didn't exist.... but hey it works.

any armor type can give great defense so long as the rest of your gear (rings, belt, necklace, robe and helm) balance it out.

Now if you're talking someone who went with TT99 LA full then yeah that would be pretty unbalanced on their part.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You realize that Detection pots give to +20 detection for 15 seconds right? So, pretty much if you THINK one is following you, you can detect any Assassin of your level for 15 seconds . . .

Not to mention they are quite expensive, and the Genie skill doesn't sound that good (don't people need Genie's to SURVIVE a sin attack, so destroying your genie skills and putting an Amp on you would help how?)

Also, while in reality people might be able to move quietly and quickly, in ANY fantasy based RPG I've played, moving in some sort of stealth mode has always resulted in a movement penalty (well, except Invisibility spells, but that's magic and Assassin's aren't a magic class)

There are actually a lot of things that physical classes shouldn't be able to do cuz thei're magic, so I actually think that it's an error to compare a game like this with reality. And about how hard it is to detect an assassin in stealth mode, as I sayd before, I think it's as hard as it should be, either if you use a genie skill, or if you use a detection pot, with every difficulty and bad side they comes with.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Lyritha - Heavens Tear wrote: »

anything can be one shot in theory, I use light armor and assassins are the least of my worries unless they are packing +12 weaponry. LA is fine but the assassins force me into fox form more than I would be if they didn't exist.... but hey it works.

any armor type can give great defense so long as the rest of your gear (rings, belt, necklace, robe and helm) balance it out.

Now if you're talking someone who went with TT99 LA full then yeah that would be pretty unbalanced on their part.

See? you ppl don't need any skill modification or add, just learn to play your class and deal with assassins. If you're not that good, well sorry so much for you. We're not unbeatable. Of course an asassin would be impossible to kill if he's lvl 90+ with end game gear reinforced in every possible way, but that doesn't happen only with assassins, it happens with every class. So stop asking developers to help you kill your target and work on it by yourselves! I wasn't able to kill a barb till now, but I don't go and ask developers to lower their heavy armor defenses or something like that!, I'm just taking my time to learn and improve myself till I become able to kill barbs, that's all.

Montcalm - Archosaur

You people have to keep in mind that we arent really talking about how assassins are better at killing (because they are so drop the subject). What we are talking about is why force stealth needs to be less OP because it can be used to get out of battles without consequence.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Montcalm - Archosaur wrote: »

Hi ive been reading all the ideas and have been thinking... A really realistic way to make stealth less cheap is to make it so that when you are in steath your speed is halved. It would work great since not only does it prevent the sin from just popping up out of stealth near you and kicking your **** (since you can just go away and they cant really follow you)it also makes the assassin less willing to use it because its more mana and more time for the same distance. Just an idea tho.

Sure I'll throw it up there with the other suggestions

EDIT: actually, I can't add that suggestion. Though it would be a good way to nerf STEALTH, I am looking for ways to nerf FORCE STEALTH. If you wish to make a topic about nerfing all kinds of stealth in general go ahead, but I need you to at least tweak this idea a little so it only affects Force Stealthing for me to add it to my suggestions list.
Like I said, good way to nerf stealth in general, but that's not what this thread is about

Montcalm - Archosaur

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Nah, it wouldn't be even realistic, to walk slowly to keep ourselves hidden is what common people do, since we're not experts. Real experts on keeping themself hidden and spy, can move as fast as they can without making any noise. In fact, ninjas was expert on doing that. This is the only idea I really like:

OK then. If thats the case then maybe it should be a speed reduction that gets lessened as the level of the skill goes up. Maybe a 60% speed reduction that gets all the way down to a 20-10% speed reduction at top level. This would make up for the fact that sins can move faster while being silent as they get more advanced and it also shows that no one can freaking sprint and still be completely unnoticed.

Susamajii - Lost City

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stealthing consumes 399 chi every second but it doesn't kick you out when you are out of chi.

True i should have added that part but at least if it drained chi they wouldn't be able to pop out with full chi anymore.

Hey between missing a sin and hitting them for 1 (even with 7.6k accuracy as a barb), them being able to just stealth to get away every 45-60 seconds is horse ....

Montcalm - Archosaur

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sure I'll throw it up there with the other suggestions

Give me credit plzb:victory

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Montcalm - Archosaur wrote: »

Give me credit plzb:victory

Given credit to everyone else so far, you'll be the same.
But look at the message you quoted, I cant in good conciousness add that suggestion ATM. You jus need to tweek it, then I can throw it up there with the rest, with you recieving credit ofc.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Montcalm - Archosaur wrote: »

You people have to keep in mind that we arent really talking about how assassins are better at killing (because they are so drop the subject). What we are talking about is why force stealth needs to be less OP because it can be used to get out of battles without consequence.

Oh and just saw this post.

and that is EXACTLY my point.

assassin is undoubtebly the most powerful 1v1 pvp class. Which is cool. That's their thing. But if you're so horribad that you actually lose a fight? Sorry, you deserve to die. End of story.

Montcalm - Archosaur

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Given credit to everyone else so far, you'll be the same.
But look at the message you quoted, I cant in good conciousness add that suggestion ATM. You jus need to tweek it, then I can throw it up there with the rest, with you recieving credit ofc.

Not quite sure what you mean by the message i quoted. I quoted many messages...

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sure I'll throw it up there with the other suggestions

EDIT: actually, I can't add that suggestion. Though it would be a good way to nerf STEALTH, I am looking for ways to nerf FORCE STEALTH. If you wish to make a topic about nerfing all kinds of stealth in general go ahead, but I need you to at least tweak this idea a little so it only affects Force Stealthing for me to add it to my suggestions list.
Like I said, good way to nerf stealth in general, but that's not what this thread is about

wewps meant to say the message -I- quotedb:shutup
oh and the above quote is what I was referring to.

Montcalm - Archosaur

hmm well now that you think about it i guess youre right. should there be an extra nerf for force stealth added on to the nerf for stealth that i am suggesting? Maybe that would be too much tho... maybe force stealth just shouldnt add stealth levels for the person that you just hurt. It would make you stealthed to all the other people but the person you just tried to kill would have a higher chance of noticing you. (i mean you just tried to kill him, so it kind of makes sense that he would be more aware of you.)

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

I've already made a suggestion like that.
Speed debuff is a good idea, jus reword it so it only nerfs force stealth, not all stealth.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've already made a suggestion like that.
Speed debuff is a good idea, jus reword it so it only nerfs force stealth, not all stealth.

Why not? If it affects one, it'll affect the other.

DrunkWizard - Lost City

speed debuff wont do much anyways.

aero doesnt take in consideration ground movement speed and theres nothing in game than decreases your speed while flying.

and sins have those tele skills than stuns, and i think 1 than doesnt. not sure about the range but i think it was 25 or 35.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

DrunkWizard - Lost City wrote: »

speed debuff wont do much anyways.

aero doesnt take in consideration ground movement speed and theres nothing in game than decreases your speed while flying.

and sins have those tele skills than stuns, and i think 1 than doesnt. not sure about the range but i think it was 25 or 35.

See my idea of stealth consuming 3 chi per second instead of mana b:thanks

Lanyiara - Harshlands

Speed debuff isnt worth it and tbh wouldnt do anything.

More often than not, sins hang arund within attack range of their target anyway, I mean I can stand right on top of you safe as houses because you cant target me. So the speed wouldnt do much. As for running away well any sin with sense still has Holy path on their genie and that would generally override the speed debuff again making it pointless.

People pvp at west gate because there is a large place with no mobs to AoE on ,the same for Hidden Orchid (There are some mobs but people usually keep them dead). So AoEing stuff to bring them out wont help. Theyl holy path away from mobs and be done with you.

And anyone talking about Detection pots, get it right.

30 Detection levels. That means you can see sins the same level as you. Unless they have LV 11 Stealth, demon or sage, you have to outlevel them to see them.

Im pretty sure I saw a post of some sin hitting 104 at one point. That sin cant be seen by anyone below 105 if she/he has Lv11 Stealth. Cept other sins using a pot.

Il reiterate that I think the Chi consumption, either over time or on cast of Shadow Escape would be best. Im not really for stealth dispelling once chi runs out however, you can sit there forever, you just wont have chi.

It could be modified so that it consumes 399 chi over 1:30, meaning once you wait out so much of the effect, you can start building chi again, im not looking for stealth to be "You cant have chi in stealth", and normal Stealth would be chi costless. and dispelling stealth manually would disable the chi drain. So you can run off far enough, leave stealth, wait the 8 sec CD and go back in and chi up long before the drain has totally ruined your chi reserves.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Lanyiara - Harshlands wrote: »

It could be modified so that it consumes 399 chi over 1:30, meaning once you wait out so much of the effect, you can start building chi again, im not looking for stealth to be "You cant have chi in stealth", and normal Stealth would be chi costless. and dispelling stealth manually would disable the chi drain. So you can run off far enough, leave stealth, wait the 8 sec CD and go back in and chi up long before the drain has totally ruined your chi reserves.

So you're saying only Shadow Escape would use chi? I guess I can see that.

Thing I don't like is, in most games, stealth comes with some penalty to use.

In PWI, the only penalty (mp drain) is so minuscule at later levels that it might as well not exist. Stealth has become more of a "I can walk around all day and not worry about a thing" skill then a "I'm going to sneak up and get the first hit in"

Being able to be in stealth (without even popping pots) for 1 hour with just cleric buff + 5 mp regen on your gear just doesn't make sense to me.


P.S. Or they need to make detection pots much easier to obtain.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Just make it take up a spark to cast instead of give a spark.
To compensate, maybe decrease chi cost on Throat Cut.

Mrvate - Heavens Tear

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

P.S. Or they need to make detection pots much easier to obtain.

or make it so detection pots make it so you can detect sins above your lvl. like make it so it raises detection lvl by 35 points. that way you have higher chance of it actually being useful and not just putting apoth on cooldown.

KuiXing - Harshlands

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In PWI, the only penalty (mp drain) is so minuscule at later levels that it might as well not exist. Stealth has become more of a "I can walk around all day and not worry about a thing" skill then a "I'm going to sneak up and get the first hit in"

This is a good point, my friend is always charmed and she left to go shopping or something and forgot to turn off pwi, 3 hours later she found herself in north archo in stealth still... they need to make it so you cant stay in stealth forever because if your mp charmed then you can walk around like its nothing in stealth, which you shouldnt be able to to.

I like the chi drain solution because it makes it so they cant wait forever. it would make sense for the chi giving skills to, so its not just stupid to give them so much chi for nothing. other classes need it more then sins im sure, so why do they get it so low lvled while everyone else has to wait for lvl89 to get the chi gaining skills? b:surrender makes no sense

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

adressing the speed debuff in stealth suggestion: I agree with some of the things you guys posted. It wouldnt affect the flying aspect, and that's what most pk is, unless ofc it's west arch pking, but in that case people hold completley still.

That and sin's have the insane tele stun, 35 range, which means speed debuff doesnt do a thing if they teleport onto you anyways.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Just rename the Assassin 'Ninja', and you're set. >:D