Force Stealth Nerf

Lanyiara - Harshlands

"Suggestion four:
I think that certain AoEs should not require a target. Any magical AoE that is centered around the user should work without one (ex. Siren's Kiss, Aqua Cannon). And certain melee skills like Heaven's Flame also don't appear to need one - so why should they? This would allow Shadow Escape to be used 100% in PvE situations, where especially lower assassins depend on it. But it also gives a realistic and reasonable means for other classes to defend themselves and kill their assassins.-brought up by Euphy (as she stated, this is an old idea she just reposted :P)"

This.

Ive always been annoyed by stealth, but its always been kinda fair.

Its just when some sin jumps one person in your party and then dissapears before the BM, Barb, Veno, Wizard etc can do anything, theyve gone and you cant do anything until they come back out of stealth. THAT is what needs fixing.

Also the pot problem. Any Sin with Lv 11 Stealth cant be seen by sin pots on an equal level non-sin character. That sucks and means using pots when a 101 / 102 sin is hanging around pointless.

DrunkWizard - Lost City

imo some classes should has awareness lv like sins does.


for example Archers and Psys

Archer because they are rogues than hide on forest and snipe ppl down o.o

Psys coz donno i guess coz they has psy powa read other ppl mind n foresee the future?(like oracle from matrix) o.o

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Lanyiara - Harshlands wrote: »

Ive always been annoyed by stealth, but its always been kinda fair.

Its just when some sin jumps one person in your party and then dissapears before the BM, Barb, Veno, Wizard etc can do anything, theyve gone and you cant do anything until they come back out of stealth. THAT is what needs fixing.

exactly. like I said, I'm fine with sins being able to attack out of stealth. But force stealth saves them from any kind of repracussion.

DrunkWizard - Lost City wrote: »

imo some classes should has awareness lv like sins does.


for example Archers and Psys

Archer because they are rogues than hide on forest and snipe ppl down o.o

Psys coz donno i guess coz they has psy powa read other ppl mind n foresee the future?(like oracle from matrix) o.o

Actually i was thinking of that too. you could say archers cuz they have a keen eye from sniping, and psychics cuz they can see that future. There could be afew more, like barbs/venos can smell them (smells like fishsticks ), wizards could sense their aura, and iuno what for bms <.< but tbh, bms are one of the best anti sin class anyways

but all that's beside the point. That all has to do with nerfing stealth in general, atm I'm just guna work on getting Force Stealth nerfed

Lanyiara - Harshlands

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

exactly. like I said, I'm fine with sins being able to attack out of stealth. But force stealth saves them from any kind of repracussion.




Actually i was thinking of that too. you could say archers cuz they have a keen eye from sniping, and psychics cuz they can see that future. There could be afew more, like barbs/venos can smell them (smells like fishsticks ), wizards could sense their aura, and iuno what for bms <.< but tbh, bms are one of the best anti sin class anyways

but all that's beside the point. That all has to do with nerfing stealth in general, atm I'm just guna work on getting Force Stealth nerfed

Another alternative is to just make stealth non-permanent.

Im not actually for this tbh, waiting around for the right time is how I play my sin, but :

Stealth (Normal) : Duration of up to 2 minutes. Cooldown on skill 2:30.

Force stealth : Duration of 45 seconds. CD is 2:30.

Thats a little over the top as an example, id make it a little more relaxed on how long you can be in stealth personally, but it would prevent the sin from being able to repeatedly jump in and out of stealth taking out robed / LA classes one by one with no real opportunity of being caught.

Seriously, the Maze steps - Ironguard powder combo is almost ALWAYS a gaurenteed kill on any non OP robe class. If you cant sit in tstealth once you re-enter it, you gotta make plans to be miles away before stealth wears off, because you wont be able to pot through any attacks after Stealth goes.

Again il point out im not actually a fan of this particular idea though.

fueledbyramen007

Lanyiara - Harshlands wrote: »

"Suggestion four:
I think that certain AoEs should not require a target. Any magical AoE that is centered around the user should work without one (ex. Siren's Kiss, Aqua Cannon). And certain melee skills like Heaven's Flame also don't appear to need one - so why should they? This would allow Shadow Escape to be used 100% in PvE situations, where especially lower assassins depend on it. But it also gives a realistic and reasonable means for other classes to defend themselves and kill their assassins.-brought up by Euphy (as she stated, this is an old idea she just reposted :P)"

This.

Ive always been annoyed by stealth, but its always been kinda fair.

Its just when some sin jumps one person in your party and then dissapears before the BM, Barb, Veno, Wizard etc can do anything, theyve gone and you cant do anything until they come back out of stealth. THAT is what needs fixing.

Also the pot problem. Any Sin with Lv 11 Stealth cant be seen by sin pots on an equal level non-sin character. That sucks and means using pots when a 101 / 102 sin is hanging around pointless.

^ Hope devs implement suggestion 4b:surrender

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Lanyiara - Harshlands wrote: »

Another alternative is to just make stealth non-permanent.

Im not actually for this tbh, waiting around for the right time is how I play my sin, but :

Stealth (Normal) : Duration of up to 2 minutes. Cooldown on skill 2:30.

Force stealth : Duration of 45 seconds. CD is 2:30.
.

Want me to put this up as a suggestion? You get credit ofc b:pleased

Lanyiara - Harshlands

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Want me to put this up as a suggestion? You get credit ofc b:pleased

If you feel it deserves to go up, yes.

Add under that im not a personal fan of the idea though b:chuckle

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Lanyiara - Harshlands wrote: »

If you feel it deserves to go up, yes.

Add under that im not a personal fan of the idea though b:chuckle

lol then I don't think I should add it.
That'd be like me saying you should go jump off a bridge, but I dont think it's a good idea and I personally wouldnt recomend it b:chuckle

Lanyiara - Harshlands

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

lol then I don't think I should add it.
That'd be like me saying you should go jump off a bridge, but I dont think it's a good idea and I personally wouldnt recomend it b:chuckle

Not quite. Its an acceptable nerf, just not the nerf I would choose. Much in the same way youd choose a 3 point seat belt in your normal car over a 5 point seatbelt (That would typically be used in a supercar), because its more comfortable, but still does the job.

Either way, up to you, im off to bed b:sleep

Montcalm - Archosaur

Hi ive been reading all the ideas and have been thinking... A really realistic way to make stealth less cheap is to make it so that when you are in steath your speed is halved. It would work great since not only does it prevent the sin from just popping up out of stealth near you and kicking your **** (since you can just go away and they cant really follow you)it also makes the assassin less willing to use it because its more mana and more time for the same distance. Just an idea tho.

Montcalm - Archosaur

and forgot to say, its realistic because real life sins from the past would have to move slowly to not be detected. (that might have been self-explanatory thob:chuckle)

Okeano - Harshlands

Durdey - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm sure you wont be able to world chat "I hate Durdey" on the Harshlands server without getting 5+ replies on either my location, or agreement of the hatred towards me.

No one cares about you Durdey. Didn't you QQ quit? It's been fine since then, no need for you to come back.

Born_Free - Harshlands

DrunkWizard - Lost City wrote: »

Psys coz donno i guess coz they has psy powa read other ppl mind n foresee the future?(like oracle from matrix) o.o

*snicker* If I could do that, I wouldn't be trying to nurf Stealthr@pe. b:chuckle

-X goes into stealth mode-
-I spam mindreading macro-
-X takes damage = to SoulForce for every second he's in stealth.- (*cough* 9231)

But in all seriousness...I fought to nurf nix'd venos...two years later, no fix. I doubt they'll do anything about it...kinda like the nix'd venos. Too much work for them I suppose.

Ellantria - Heavens Tear

How about making force stealth have a much lower stealth level bonus?

Like, it's 11 stealth levels for sage/demon Shadow Escape. Why not drop that down to like, 5 levels? Leave Shadow Walk at it's normal levels, but just drop the oh****runaway stealth's levels.

Cause, doesn't that make sense? If your target hasn't spotted you yet, you would be as stealth as could be. But if you had failed to kill your target, then trying to run away while moving stealthily would be harder, since not only would your target be paying more attention, but dashing back into the shadows as quickly as possible is going to draw attention. (Putting it in real life terms.)

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear

Maybe they could put a duration on force stealth? And to top it off, make it random like a cleric's sleep (and rather short).

Sins are all about taking chances anyway, something as steady and reliable as force stealth doesn't belong to such a class IMO.

Kai_Umi - Heavens Tear

Such post as "sin will most likely die without it" make me laugh, what happend when a magic user use his stun/sleep move or w/e in pk if u don t kill your opponent you ll "most likely die" or get ganked by the 5 other persons around so realy idc of the sin die after he failed to kill someone...

All they do is stay in stealth F.O.R.E.V.E.R and come back kill you in 2-3 hit. Don t tell me about AD or such things most of the time they go poof and come back to kill you once it s gone a few second later

A genie skill that would let us increase our detection lvl could be nice indead.

Longknife - Harshlands

Honestly I think assassins would suck absolute balls without that skill, so yeah it's gotta stay. You've got some nice suggestions though.


The thing should even have a longer cast time, make those two AOEs non-target (Clerics and Psys are common sin targets anyways, so this would give them a way to keep the fight up and get the kill), or....


Why the HELL did they get a spark for using that skill? "You just casted Psychic Will Longknife. Good boy, have a free spark for saving your own life." You know how ridiculous it is that other classes PAY for their overpowered skills, whereas sins get REWARDED for using them? Switch that ***** around: make them pay a spark to force stealth. It's not like they take a long time to build up chi anyways, but this would stop all these idiots who dunno how to do anything but demon spark. DO NOT DEMON SPARK ON A PSY FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME. I'LL PSY WILL AND MAKE YOU LOOK RET@RDED IN FRONT OF YOUR FRIENDS.

Born_Free - Harshlands

While I DO agree that LA SUCKS more nads than Yulk, that's no justification for that.
Gee, what if ARCHERS turned stealth. We would be screwed. I can just see Curses in stealth....

b:cry

OH GOD, MY FIBULA!

Yeah. Try again Sins. You don't NEED sparks for going stealth, you need them taken away. Why should you get rewarded if you can just build up sparks in like ten seconds? Like I said, it takes me about 2~3 macro spams to get a spark. You? you just force stealth, and life is just great. Do it twice! Get doublespark! Take down 10x barb in a longshot. Take out Longknife in two hits. Take out me in about half a hit.

Add massive DPS? You will die before you even know they were there. Targets? Robes. Fail barbs. Fail BM's. Archers. You will not survive.
Out of the countless assassin ganks I've been in? I've lived through TWO. (Only to get killed by another sin who was nearby. No lie.)
Maybe I'm just an embarassing PvPer. >.> Or maybe the 900 other people with the same complaint just suck too. Or maybe there's something wrong with the skill?

<.< It makes you wonder.

Ellantria - Heavens Tear

I still say that Shadow Escape should grant a lower stealth level bonus.

Put it on a timer too. Maybe 15 seconds of invisibility. That's enough time to hightail it out of there.

Double its cool, make it cost a spark. Give it more mana drain.

You're running away from a fight, not lurking in the shadows. Make it's effects seem like that.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Add massive DPS? You will die before you even know they were there. Targets? Robes. Fail barbs. Fail BM's. Archers. You will not survive.
Out of the countless assassin ganks I've been in? I've lived through TWO. (Only to get killed by another sin who was nearby. No lie.)
Maybe I'm just an embarassing PvPer. >.> Or maybe the 900 other people with the same complaint just suck too. Or maybe there's something wrong with the skill?

<.< It makes you wonder.

I know I'm not a robe user so my experiences don't count but:

I was chillin' in PK mode at Silver Pool once. Saw a level 90 sin with Sage weapon +7 pop up as well as another one 90+ with FCC dagger. I survived to stun them both with Roar, then the another one with Drake's Bash and quick Aoelian to the another one. Nearby 100 veno uses AoE, I survive with 70 HP but those sins die. It was EPIC. b:chuckle

I've seen robe users get destroyed so bad by sins though; good thing that on Sanct most sin PvPers are from the number #1 and don't kill lowbies. There's maybe three? annoying sins on Sanct that actively PvP.

Longknife - Harshlands

Quite honestly though, even if this were fixed? It wouldn't change ****.


I get where OP is coming from. As a Psy levels, they become increasingly harder for a sin to kill. Their soulforce skills, Psy will and high DPS make for an incredibly risky kill. Despite this, I'm pretty sure I've been getting jumped MORE as I've gotten better. I think it's cause a bunch of sins have ego issues, and after their first kill fails, they'll friggin' shadow me for hours until I chat/go AFK/get in a fight/whatever and then jump me. I doubt they like fighting me because they like a challenge, cause if that were the case, they'd go play with that Kitty barb over there ffs and leave me alone.

But yeah: I get jumped a LOT, and a LOT of those sins are also ret@rded enough to jump me, fail, and Shadow escape to save their asses. THEN THEY COME BACK, WHAT THE HELL!!! It's like a stupid fly that keeps flying into a lightbulb even though he's burning his ***. If you fail an assassination attempt, you should probably just leave the dude alone, both because you might get yourself killed and more importantly, because it's not fun to be shadowed by some dude for 2 hours; It's rude! :c I'm sure that's why OP is suggesting the skill is nerfed, because the types of idiots who do this DO wait for shadow escape to become available again before their next attack, and a nerf would save us squishies a lot of time from repeatedly swatting these pests away.

Lately though, I've seen a trick that's becoming increasingly more common and not such a rare occurance: Maze steps + ironguard powder. Just when you thought sins couldn't get any gayer, we've got a bunch who like to attack ONLY when they have the element of surprise + a 12 second damage immunity. I mean seriously?? This isn't even PVP anymore: that's shooting fish in a barrel. I'm sorry but the problem isn't just the sin class; it's that it attracts all the a-holes. Sin gives a lot of people a chance to pretend they're their favorite action hero registered bad@ss, and they don't like when you toss them out of that fantasy, so they take every measure neccesary to make sure you don't. If you're busy fighting someone else, that's when they'll jump. If you're about to kill them, that's when they'll hide. If they repeatedly find themselves Shadow Escaping without having killed you, that's when they'll make themselves invincible.

Having said that, I doubt a change will be made to Shadow Escape and I doubt a change would help anyways. Sins have more than a couple ways to be annoying as hell.

Kaste - Sanctuary

some random points:

- AoE without target would be awesome. Really awesome.

- I like anything that includes these two words combined: Sin, Nerf. They just are OP, no doubt. But that's normal for new classes, GMs are going to fix it b:pleased

- How about limited stealth time or huge cooldown on Shadow Escape?

Longknife - Harshlands

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

some random points:

- AoE without target would be awesome. Really awesome.

- I like anything that includes these two words combined: Sin, Nerf. They just are OP, no doubt. But that's normal for new classes, GMs are going to fix it b:pleased

- How about limited stealth time or huge cooldown on Shadow Escape?

Well they're not REALLY overpowered cause they just kinda fall-flat, end-game. They're a one-trick pony: they know how to jump squishies and that's ALL they know how to do. At end game, while the barbs are getting 20k+ HP, the wizzies are hitting 10ks with both of their resistances incredibly high, the Psys are getting 15% chance of silence with a soulburn that kills almost instantly and the sage BMs are getting amazing physical defense, what are the sins doing? Yeah they get 5aps but that doesn't really help them as much as one would expect. The classes they can use it on are the classes they could beat already. A 5aps BM will still probably beat them and the only bonus they gain is they can take down a barb. Their defense remains balls and they're balls in group fights; a BM will still get squaded over them because a BM can tank the bosses they pull aggro on whereas a sin sometimes cannot. They're also balls in TW since they can't take advantage of stealth there: they either stay out of it and die quickly or they stick to it and get one kill every 90 seconds; that's an absolute waste of space for TW.

Sins are considered OP because they can jump and kill most squishies without the squishy even having a chance to fight back. Sins aren't OP because...that's ALL they know how to do. b:surrender

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Well they're not REALLY overpowered cause they just kinda fall-flat, end-game. They're a one-trick pony: they know how to jump squishies and that's ALL they know how to do. At end game, while the barbs are getting 20k+ HP, the wizzies are hitting 10ks with both of their resistances incredibly high, the Psys are getting 15% chance of silence with a soulburn that kills almost instantly and the sage BMs are getting amazing physical defense, what are the sins doing? Yeah they get 5aps but that doesn't really help them as much as one would expect. The classes they can use it on are the classes they could beat already. A 5aps BM will still probably beat them and the only bonus they gain is they can take down a barb. Their defense remains balls and they're balls in group fights; a BM will still get squaded over them because a BM can tank the bosses they pull aggro on whereas a sin sometimes cannot. They're also balls in TW since they can't take advantage of stealth there: they either stay out of it and die quickly or they stick to it and get one kill every 90 seconds; that's an absolute waste of space for TW.

Not really. If we take out AD/IGs and other such apocs and genie skills (since when you see sin IG you can do the same, duh) sins can just slow the atk speed of that BM and then you do less damage than him even when considering the p. def/HP difference. It'd be okay if it was only like 5-10 secs but it's 30. Of course you can triple spark purify but then sin waits for your spark to end and starts killing you again. Rib Strike is out of CD already by then.

On Sanct, in a sin vs. BM fight the BM usually wins but those sins are usually badly geared low-90s, not 100+. Not like I care though; I can still drop the 8x sins most of the time unless they are way overgeared. Like FCC gold daggers +7.

Longknife - Harshlands

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not really. If we take out AD/IGs and other such apocs and genie skills (since when you see sin IG you can do the same, duh) sins can just slow the atk speed of that BM and then you do less damage than him even when considering the p. def/HP difference. It'd be okay if it was only like 5-10 secs but it's 30. Of course you can triple spark purify but then sin waits for your spark to end and starts killing you again. Rib Strike is out of CD already by then.

On Sanct, in a sin vs. BM fight the BM usually wins but those sins are usually badly geared low-90s, not 100+. Not like I care though; I can still drop the 8x sins most of the time unless they are way overgeared. Like FCC gold daggers +7.

But the sin is already lowering his own DPS by using Rib Strike, and the BM's damage on the sins is already higher than the sin's damage on the BM. Other than that, it's simply that a BM has, imo, much more to work with. You can get your DPS slowed, take out your axes and still stun the dude long enough to kill him.

Don't get me wrong, the fight could definitely go either way, but what I mean is...

Psys have trouble with clerics, for example. If I go end-game and +12 my gear, my soulburn hurts a helluva lot more. So much so that all it would take is bad luck and bad timing on the Cleric's end and I could win. He'd be stronger too with +12 **** and I'm sure I could lose too, but it's nice that one skill alone would simply need the right setup and I'd win. In that case, I've improved against my weakness. In a sin's case, I don't think they improve their weak-points as much as others do. They gain 5 aps, but so does one of the classes they struggle with. Sure they can stun or silence the BM, but he can do the exact same to them, and the BM has the higher defense, higher HP and maybe even higher attack in that fight.
Even in barb's case, where I know I've seen more than enough 5aps sins drop a barb, it still takes long and the sin WILL die if anyone else hits them. The problem, imo, is just that sins are so god damn squishy and they always will be. Archers are squishy but they have range and running speed. Psys are squishy but they have white voodoo and Psy will. Sins have to completely bail out of a losing fight because they have no real defense...

Quilue - Sanctuary

This thread isn't exactly about an assassin's offensive potential. It's understandable that they should have good damage being Light Armor and melee. The debate is whether it is acceptable to have an almost fail-safe flee skill that incidentally also gives a spark. Archers have run skills that costs sparks, and every class has Holy Path anyway.

Advantage in archer's favor in terms of survivability is really in the air, where run skills don't exactly apply, because that's where range advantage is more pronounced.

Oneji - Heavens Tear

The funny thing about the whole OP assassin argument is the fact the majority of the people complaining are the arcane, which is exactly the only class even a well geared assassin has the best chance of killing. A 5aps assassin vs a well geared 5aps BM or Barb, the heavy class a majority of the time comes out on tip because of their amazing defense and health gains. Now the most only option for the assassin is the arcane class, mainly because of their HP and defense.


Now about limiting stealth duration, most people think about PK reasons, but I wonder how this would effect PVE for some. Anyway limiting stealth I believe is a ridiculous idea. Thinking outside the box, not every assassin is going to be uberly geared by 9x+, and stealth is practically the only defense the assassin has against HA and especially the arcane. For example, an assassin is sitting out of safe zone waiting for a chance to hurt somebody, LongKnife is switching between White and Black voodoo to gain chi and lure a possible assassin outb:shocked, the assassins stealth duration is complete and is now out of stealth. LongKnife sees this and says "omgrofleasykillIspamskills", so he just hits with a stun and then one 3 shots the assassin(deaden nerve). Now this scenario was a decently geared assassin vs a well geared arcane, the chances of the assassin winning not so good, especially with a stealth duration.

I wont bother talking about 5aps BMs and Barbs, I think you can figure that one outb:cry.

So when you look at it carefully stealth and force stealth are ultimately the assassins only defense mechanisms. And don't forget, the assassin emphasizes DPS, which is pretty hard to do in a PK situation if you dont have stealth or, have 5+ different people attacking you at once.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

they are way overgeared. Like FCC gold daggers +7.

lol @ anyone who goes through the trouble of +7'ing Ghost Cry Thorn.

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol @ anyone who goes through the trouble of +7'ing Ghost Cry Thorn.

one of our first (oracle noob) 100 sins did it when i sold him the first pair on the server.

that on Sanct most sin PvPers are from the number #1 and don't kill lowbies

three of the biggest cashers on the server? ya, sure they pro. and then theres that noob matchstic, he attacks lowbies, and only comes out of stealth when one is around. oh, or when there are 2 v 1 situations... where he still gets his butt handed to him.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol @ anyone who goes through the trouble of +7'ing Ghost Cry Thorn.

CSer who oracled his archer and sin to 90. ijs

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

three of the biggest cashers on the server? ya, sure they pro. and then theres that noob matchstic, he attacks lowbies, and only comes out of stealth when one is around. oh, or when there are 2 v 1 situations... where he still gets his butt handed to him.

Good thing he doesn't spam kill me even though he could.