Force Stealth Nerf

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

CSer who oracled his archer and sin to 90. ijs



Good thing he doesn't spam kill me even though he could.

lol earlier this week, i kept watching him attempt to 2-3 v 1 against this bm named zuuka. zuuka killed both sins at the same time >_>; the quality of assassins i have seen red named on sanc were garbage unless they fought each other.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol earlier this week, i kept watching him attempt to 2-3 v 1 against this bm named zuuka. zuuka killed both sins at the same time >_>; the quality of assassins i have seen red named on sanc were garbage unless they fought each other.

The best sins imo on Sanct are AT, kirby and Vert. All somewhat heavily equipped and most importantly, skilled.

Zuuka is my hero, he spam killed that one fail BM on Silver once and it was so much fun watch him QQ. Not going to tell who that idiot is though.

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

never heard of them, to me 'skill' disappeared a long time ago, no bother mentioning if someone's good or not to me. to me its nonexistant. now its just he who had the bigger wallet to waste on his character

CuteButEvil - Harshlands

Long thread...didn't read every single post >_< Anyways; I actually agree with the OP (sort of). Which, yes, I am a sin. I'm weird, I'll stand there and fight to the finish even if I know I'm gonna die. Just not a running type.

Edited to add:
I didn't vote because no, sin is not an easy class to play all the time.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

never heard of them, to me 'skill' disappeared a long time ago, no bother mentioning if someone's good or not to me. to me its nonexistant. now its just he who had the bigger wallet to waste on his character

I had a feeling you knew who Onya and Verticoli were. Well, I guess no then.

I've seen both of them PK with their sins and they are skilled.

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

im aware whom they are, that doesn't make them good to me. if anything, vericoli has been a server joke since the beginning of time. infact killing lowbies was invented by him O_o.

Born_Free - Harshlands

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

They're also balls in TW since they can't take advantage of stealth there: they either stay out of it and die quickly or they stick to it and get one kill every 90 seconds; that's an absolute waste of space for TW.

Longknife, sweetie, darling, love of my life-- [/sarcasm]

Doesn't ZULU use two squads of Assassins in TW? I believe they used to do that to drive people absolutely nuts...?
>.> And don't lie....because I'll know if you are. Applequest was in Zulu before he broke off to make Equinox HL.

Other than that, your argument is 100% vaild.

EDIT: There are no "good" assassins.......just bad everything else. [/sadface]

Longknife - Harshlands

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Longknife, sweetie, darling, love of my life-- [/sarcasm]

Doesn't ZULU use two squads of Assassins in TW? I believe they used to do that to drive people absolutely nuts...?
>.> And don't lie....because I'll know if you are. Applequest was in Zulu before he broke off to make Equinox HL.

Other than that, your argument is 100% vaild.

Ok quick TW run-down to explain why they're ****.


Picture two guilds meeting each other in the battlefield. You'll basically see BMs running out in front to stun (then retreating), Barbs and their squad towards trying to push forward, and a line of the DDs going along with the barb, namely wizzies, archers and the few Psys there are. If you fight an opposing archer and you're winning, the archer will probably fall back. If you try to follow him, that's when you're screwed. You've thrown yourself into the middle of the battlefield, the people directly beside the archer will notice he's retreating and shoot at you to help him, and now you can't do the same and retreat back as quickly because you've walked 10 meters into the heart of the battle. You stick where you are and advance slowly as a team with the people directly beside you. If one of them needs help, you help them. That's my opinion anyways and that's what I do.


The problem with Sins is, well, who goes into the middle of the battlefield? Barbs and BMs. BMs just go in to stun, maybe toss some other AOEs for support, but they also need to be able to retreat quickly. Barbs don't EXACTLY go in the middle, but the battle will revolve around them and they do need to push forward. However, a barb has a bunch of people surrounding him specifically to support him. Both these classes have much better durability than a sin, and even they avoid being DIRECTLY in the middle by either attacking quickly and ditching or by having tons of people there to support them. The DDs? They have their range and they work with that.

Sins don't have range. They have to go into the heart of the battlefield like BMs and Barbs. Hell, if a sin wants to attack, they have to go BEHIND ENEMY LINES. Everyone and their mother knows if a sin has jumped someone, and everyone and their mother will gladly take the kill on that high damage, incredibly squishy target that doesn't have a chance in hell of retreating. They're too far into the enemy's side, and that's why archers are more effective than them in TW: they have a sin's damage, but they have the neccesary range to use that damage without getting themselves killed.
The other option is that a sin could make a very, VERY quick kill on a target, Shadow Escape, and wait on the cooldown. That's ONE kill every 90 seconds. That's an absolute waste of space. I don't even know how many kills I get because I'm just AOEing friggin' everything, as are a lot of other players; a sin on the other hand is a squishy single-target attacker whose only way to avoid death is to limit his kills to one kill per 90 seconds.

Many people would argue a sin is a wonderful candidate to take out a barb's clerics, but again, you've got a very tight squad concerning themselves with keeping the cata alive (which also means taking care of the cleric keeping the cata alive) and they'll notice that sin just as quickly as the DD line would. You need a hardcore 5 aps sin, and remember this is TW, so the cleric is probably top standard himself and isn't gonna go down quickly. More importantly, the cleric is gonna have ironguards and Absolute Domain and every other trick in the book to delay his own death. On the other hand, there's Psys for example. We can soulburn the clerics, which literally cripples the squad for ten seconds. Hell, we can Disturb soul the cleric and they'll cast god-awful slow for another 15 seconds. While we're doing that, we can debuff the barb so healing spells are less effective on him and his charm is god awful slow. Or hell, a BM can AOE stun them all and Heaven's Flame as a wizzie gets ready to AOE, as is their job. There's plenty of good alternatives.




It's very simple, but it means so much: Sins don't have the range needed to be able to attack the enemy from a safe position, and what's worse is they have god awful defense, making their deaths all the quicker. To top it all off, they have a reputation of taking squishies down quickly, so psychologically, everyone and their mother will attack a sin the moment they see one.


I dunno where you heard we have two sin squads. Whoever said that was on drugs.

Starrr - Harshlands

Not sure if it has been brought up since I stopped reading the same old rants after page 5.

The real issue is that stealth both normal and forced can last indefinitely. Normal stealth should be 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown. Forced stealth should be 5 second duration with 60 second cooldown. Also detection pots should increase 50 detection level since they are such a joke lasting for such a short period of time and being on a 2 minute cooldown stopping the use of real apothecary pots.

Durdey - Harshlands

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

No one cares about you Durdey. Didn't you QQ quit? It's been fine since then, no need for you to come back.

Be Quiet 1-Shot b:chuckle

It has not been fine. Have you seen the PK rankings yet? Ayekim is still top 5 on harshlands, and top 15 overall on pvp... and she's level 86. A toon that hasnt been seriously played for almost a year now.

Your "ganks" on me.... are pretty damn awful. Especially when I can find 1 opening for 1 shot to well.... 1 shot u. With my +4 FC dags.

Absoluth - Heavens Tear

PWE has never done any class balance at any level. I doubt they'll nerf a skill after 2 years of complete negligence towards gameplay.

Nyxya - Harshlands

this is perfect qq post lol..i read it all cause was so damn funny...

when pw made sin and psi they made them OP from start so ppl will go raise another character and waste more cash...isn't that obvious?

shadow escape is escape skill..sin make duble spark+maze+ig and kill 1-2 ppl in midle of 10 and run away....

you want qq go qq about dps or dmg or anything else...

i got 102 sin and trust me any archer or wizard with a +10 weapon 1 hit me ... i don't qq about that also...

sin are made to go in make kill and go out...that's what they do and not all of them..need+10 weapons with nice dps and pk pots...

so you in end basically qq about ppl who use dollars to buy nice gearb:laugh cause really a sin with 90 weapon can't pull a kill like that

you nerf stealth you make sin a alt to farm nirvana ...you think will ever happen?

Durdey - Harshlands

Ellantria - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I still say that Shadow Escape should grant a lower stealth level bonus.

Put it on a timer too. Maybe 15 seconds of invisibility. That's enough time to hightail it out of there.

Double its cool, make it cost a spark. Give it more mana drain.

You're running away from a fight, not lurking in the shadows. Make it's effects seem like that.

15 seconds of invisibility or unlimited... does not matter. Because the change in tactic on that point is to "move to a safe location, destealth from temp stealth, restealth to normal stealth, and return to battle field"
this would change NOTHING on the battle field.

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

some random points:

- AoE without target would be awesome. Really awesome.

- I like anything that includes these two words combined: Sin, Nerf. They just are OP, no doubt. But that's normal for new classes, GMs are going to fix it b:pleased

- How about limited stealth time or huge cooldown on Shadow Escape?

QQ much there bud? Have you been getting pwnd by sins?
Cooldown on shadow escape would mean almost nothing. At that point, sins would just develop a secondary speed escape to create time to use normal stealth.
Your idea is flawed because you're too butthurt to realize that there is no issue with sins. Just issues with you not being able to play your own class.
I bet you scream in joy when a sin fails to assassinate you. And you get the 1 up on them before they can stealth. I bet you thought nothing was wrong with that... killing a squishy armor sin because they couldnt overcome your charm/gear/genie/defense/friends.

Level up, and stop crying, because when you hit level 100, and start doing nirvana, and get better gear... you will realize that sins... just arent that OP. At end-game they are low on defense and the only defense they truly have, is stealth.

Taking away a sins stealth is like taking away a barb's charm. It's the only thing that seems to keep barbs alive.

Durdey - Harshlands

Nyxya - Harshlands wrote: »

this is perfect qq post lol..i read it all cause was so damn funny...

when pw made sin and psi they made them OP from start so ppl will go raise another character and waste more cash...isn't that obvious?

shadow escape is escape skill..sin make duble spark+maze+ig and kill 1-2 ppl in midle of 10 and run away....

you want qq go qq about dps or dmg or anything else...

i got 102 sin and trust me any archer or wizard with a +10 weapon 1 hit me ... i don't qq about that also...

sin are made to go in make kill and go out...that's what they do and not all of them..need+10 weapons with nice dps and pk pots...

so you in end basically qq about ppl who use dollars to buy nice gearb:laugh cause really a sin with 90 weapon can't pull a kill like that

you nerf stealth you make sin a alt to farm nirvana ...you think will ever happen?

This is quite possibly the first time your broken speech has ever made any sense.

Adding to that... you're right. Not all sins can do these amazing things he's talking about. Not every sin goes around doing all this crazy stuff. The only time the developers see an issue is when every single sin is abusing a skill in a way that puts them WAY above the rest. Then it's obvious, but from a standpoint of a high level sin player... it's not OP at all.

Running away better than any other class is NOT AN OP SKILL!

Durdey - Harshlands

Absoluth - Heavens Tear wrote: »

PWE has never done any class balance at any level. I doubt they'll nerf a skill after 2 years of complete negligence towards gameplay.

Not True.

about 6-8 months ago they did nurf the sin.

They made it so that a sin would be forced out of stealth if they were to do a demon/sage spark.

That was OP... Buffing is okay, but that one did kinda put our class out to be the only ones who can truly pull of "Surprise Butt Sex".

Okeano - Harshlands

Durdey - Harshlands wrote: »

Be Quiet 1-Shot b:chuckle

It has not been fine. Have you seen the PK rankings yet? Ayekim is still top 5 on harshlands, and top 15 overall on pvp... and she's level 86. A toon that hasnt been seriously played for almost a year now.

Your "ganks" on me.... are pretty damn awful. Especially when I can find 1 opening for 1 shot to well.... 1 shot u. With my +4 FC dags.

Grats, you 2 shot a charmless fish b:question. My gank? Rofl? You mean your interruption of me and that Barb and mine 1v1 then I turn around and killed you b:question. In case you are too dense to notice, I was messing around yesterday. I'm 100 and you are 96 but I stayed w/o stealth so your chicken sht self will actually come out of SZ and play. Idc about dying, idc about my kill count and idc about the "PvP rank" that shows who camped questing lowbies the most. Sin one shots other Sin with a crit, consider we walk around with like less than 3k P def. Getting too excited there bud. If you really want to play, let's see if you even come out of SZ to me stealthed w/o your R8 +12 leader around. b:chuckle

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Durdey - Harshlands wrote: »

QQ much there bud? Have you been getting pwnd by sins?
Cooldown on shadow escape would mean almost nothing. At that point, sins would just develop a secondary speed escape to create time to use normal stealth.
Your idea is flawed because you're too butthurt to realize that there is no issue with sins. Just issues with you not being able to play your own class.
I bet you scream in joy when a sin fails to assassinate you. And you get the 1 up on them before they can stealth. I bet you thought nothing was wrong with that... killing a squishy armor sin because they couldnt overcome your charm/gear/genie/defense/friends.

I can think of three situations where it doesn't matter whether you can play your class or not:

1) Maze Steps -> Double spark -> Immunity pot -> pop out of stealth -> autoattack -> restealth when immunity is gone. Can be countered with AD or immunity but that doesn't mean you can kill the sin.

2) Pop out of stealth -> BR -> Restealth. Can be countered with AD but you'd have to be very lucky with that one. If the sin uses amp/stun tele then you can be fast enough to AD. Most probably you won't be able to kill the sin.

3) Oneshot or twoshot the robe user. Mostly happens with level/gear difference.

Number 1 doesn't happen with lower level PKers (maybe without immunity), number two is always as annoying but sins are not the only class to use BR and number three is not an issue with HA.

For me, there are much worse enemies than sins. Which is obvious since I'm HA.

kenlee

Durdey - Harshlands wrote: »

It has not been fine. Have you seen the PK rankings yet? Ayekim is still top 5 on harshlands, and top 15 overall on pvp... and she's level 86. A toon that hasnt been seriously played for almost a year now.

you're probably the only one who think they update these ranks

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

They're also balls in TW since they can't take advantage of stealth there: they either stay out of it and die quickly or they stick to it and get one kill every 90 seconds; that's an absolute waste of space for TW.

arent you a waste of tw spot too? you just die the first push and stay there dead the whole twb:laugh

Longknife - Harshlands

kenlee wrote: »

arent you a waste of tw spot too? you just die the first push and stay there dead the whole twb:laugh

You know what's sad is that I can't tell if you're joking or not because there are seriously people who believe that's all that I'm doing.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

I've not heard a single arguement against this one suggestion.

Keep all skills the same for sins...

Just make stealth consume chi (I'm thinking like 5 chi per second maybe? That's still 20 seconds per chi bar)

It gets rid of the easy "perma-stealth", it makes perfect sense of shadow escape to give a spark (20 seconds of stealth to run away) and it makes sense for all the other ridiculous chi gaining skills for sins.

Discuss.b:shutup

Borsuc - Raging Tide

1 kill every 90 secs isn't that bad either, since they'll be sealed for 30 secs when releasing/reviving so it turns into 60 sec + whatever time they need to rebuff and regain chi and whatever.

Besides... the problem with TWs is that no one has a faction with a lot of sins to replace the others. Sure, 1 sin is going to freaking die against 10 wizards/psys/archers on him when he pops out of stealth. Are we seriously going to use 1v10 as an argument?

How about 10 sins pop out of stealth at the same time each on a different wiz/psy/archer? That, is called coordination.

AOE power? Maze Steps+Ironguard+Subsea Strike+Bramble Rage+Earth Rift+Forced Stealth

Imagine 2-3 sins popping into a group of people and doing this. Completely unexpected. Only one has to use subsea.

Born_Free - Harshlands

kenlee wrote: »

arent you a waste of tw spot too? you just die the first push and stay there dead the whole twb:laugh

-.- what're you, Kylin activist? Butthurt former Kingdom member? Troll someplace else please. b:bye

Of course Long, if you actually posted TW videos..... b:chuckle
Nurfed needs to let you do stuff, I swear. I've only seen thunder_fist in battle, and other than that, there's not much else information I have on Psys in TW.....

>.> So hurry up and make me that video! It's not like you're actually in DANGER, it's just Kylin. xD

Longknife - Harshlands

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

How about 10 sins pop out of stealth at the same time each on a different wiz/psy/archer? That, is called coordination.

Yeah, and it's semi-unrealistic. I assume you know how hectic TW can be. Of course it's possible, but you would need a squad of 6 Sins who are very professional and very well coordinated with one another. Until you run across 6 great sins who are capable of doing this, it's just not worth having.

Problem with that is that a sin will typically jump the DDs, namely wizzies, archers, Psys and venos. Where that plan runs into issues is as Psys and archers. Let's say the first sin attacks a wizzie, who is stationed next to an archer. The archer will take notice and help the wizzie. In my experience, sins aren't exactly amazing at taking down archers, so it's not some quick kill, and it NEEDS to be a quick kill. There are a LOT of archers in TWs, so this is a pretty decent sized obstacle for them. Then there's Psys. I'm one, and I can tell you we're not your average squishy when it comes to fighting a sin. Psy will and the sin is toast, Soul of Retaliation and the sin may fry his own hide. There's other possibilities too. Even if these two weren't a problem, let's say every one of the DDs that runs into trouble with a sin hits an ironguard, or hell, even expel. What do the sins do then? That's when it becomes too hectic to coordinate. You can't have every sin announcing that his target used an ironguard, and you can't have them all waiting for the ironguards to wear off. Sure you can argue that the hectic they've caused is worth it enough, but that we don't know for sure, and again, a perfect sin squad is pretty unrealistic.

Plus, in your combo you named, you named Ironguards. That's something they would have to wait on the cooldown for. And no, one kill every 90 seconds is NOT acceptable.

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

>.> So hurry up and make me that video! It's not like you're actually in DANGER, it's just Kylin. xD

I duno how lolz.

Too bad, too. Last war against Wodan we were total A-holes and locked them down in their base as one cata killed the crystal. I arrived and saw about 8 archers pinning them down at their spawn point and I was like "oh hell yeah, I'm there." Stood there at the front lines the entire war as we shot at anyone who moved away from the spawn, it was lulzy.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Plus, in your combo you named, you named Ironguards. That's something they would have to wait on the cooldown for. And no, one kill every 90 seconds is NOT acceptable.

Why not... it's not like they outnumber you in an honest fight. And you want to steamroll them? If each of your members takes down 2 of them, for instance, you only need 40 to stop 80, means you overpower them.

It's pointless to argue that sins are not good for steamrolling -- that's not even balanced anyway since you overpower them. Of course if you are a ranged class who 1-shots enemies with a normal attack, archer will be the best. But who gives a **** about overpowering them? I'm talking equal gears and all, you know. Can't say archers are overpowered for fighting lowbies.

(of course ignoring cata barbs and clerics but it's not like they don't have them either)

Biggest problem with the coordination I mentioned is picking a different target. NOT unstealthing at the same time. Ever heard of vent? You can't "help your fellow wiz" if you are stunned at the same time or 0.5 sec time shift.

So make sins OP because most people suck at coordinating? Doesn't make much sense. People sucking =/= game mechanic.

Quilue - Sanctuary

If you can get 10 of anything to coordinate perfectly, then you've won the TW.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

If the enemy doesn't do it either b:laugh

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you can get 10 of anything to coordinate perfectly, then you've won the TW.

I hear Cala has a 5 wiz squad (like 5 wiz's + 1 sin(?), I don't remember).

They coordinate their BIDS to all land at the same time roughly in different areas.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just make stealth consume chi (I'm thinking like 5 chi per second maybe? That's still 20 seconds per chi bar)

It gets rid of the easy "perma-stealth", it makes perfect sense of shadow escape to give a spark (20 seconds of stealth to run away) and it makes sense for all the other ridiculous chi gaining skills for sins.

I actually like this idea as well, I'll add it to OP

EDIT: holy **** this thread has a life of it's own now rofl. I got to bed, and afew hours later we have 18 pages

oh and I'm also happy with the lack of trolling/flamming. We had a bad run with a certain sin for awhile, but he seems to of been pacified <.< $10 says he comes back and quotes this to inflate his ego

Btw Borsuc, gratz on 101 ^-^

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

I actually like this idea as well, I'll add it to OP

EDIT: holy **** this thread has a life of it's own now rofl. I got to bed, and afew hours later we have 18 pages

oh and I'm also happy with the lack of trolling/flamming. We had a bad run with a certain sin for awhile, but he seems to of been pacified <.< $10 says he comes back and quotes this to inflate his ego

Btw Borsuc, gratz on 101 ^-^

Can you change my suggestion to 3 chi per second? Effectively allowing 33 seconds of stealth per chi bar, this would allow lvl 10 Inner Harmony to give sins perma-stealth (at the cost of not using that skill in combat though)

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Can you change my suggestion to 3 chi per second? Effectively allowing 33 seconds of stealth per chi bar, this would allow lvl 10 Inner Harmony to give sins perma-stealth (at the cost of not using that skill in combat though)

Making stealth cost chi is an insane idea. Think of the lower levels, not just the 86+ PvP when you have level 10 skills.

When you first get Shadow Escape on 29, you only have 1 chi skill and it has a 15 second cooldown for 50 chi. You first get IH on level 59. So your suggestion would pretty much make Shadow Escape unuseable before 59.

And what would you do about Shadow Walk? Make it cost chi as well? Great idea since you have so much chi no level 13, not to mention so many chi gain skills pre-29.

Seriously, stop being a bunch of complainers. Shadow Escape is already pretty bad at 3.5 seconds for cast + channel. That's plenty of time to do something really nasty to them. Not to mention that it has a hideously long cooldown.

And btw, before you start talking about Deaden Nerves, realize that it comes with a 3 minute cooldown even when maxed, not to mention being almost 5 minutes when level 1.