Force Stealth Nerf

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Just wanna start by saying this isnt a QQ thread. I wasn't owned by a sin 10min ago and decided to come to forums to complain. I'm just simply making this poll to see what the general census is on Force Stealth.

NOTE: the second option for poll doesn't mean that you don't get owned by sins, but that it's hard for you TO own sins because of force stealth.

Shadow Escape (Force Stealth)
Force yourself into stealth. Increases stealth lvl by 10. Cost 15 mana a second. Gain one spark.


For many, this skill screams OP. With stealth, you can choose when your battles will begin, and with force stealth, you can decide when they end. Although many have made the argument that sins would be a OP class without stealth to get the first attack, that's not what this post is about. This post is about force stealthing, and how it can make a bad situation into a safe one. I understand that stealth is part of being an assassin; by definition you should be able to sneak up on, and -assasinate- your oponent.

But force stealth is crossing a line. Not only is it unfair that at any time you can say, "fights over, bye," or "I'm gonna wait out your genie skills and apoth so I can easily take you out," but it's also very un-assassin like. In history, a failed attempt at assassination almost always led to the assassin getting killed. Historically, there was no "force stealth" for them to disapear from infront of the enemies eyes so they could try again in 5minutes.
NOTE: alot of you have been getting hung up on the historical argument. Don't let that take away from the real one (that assassins shouldnt be able to run whenever they want)

So here's my suggestions (btw, I only want one suggestion implemented, because more than one would probally be too much)

Suggestion one: give the "increase stealth lvl by X" effect a 10sec timer, and make it "increase opponents awareness lvl by XX" for 3min. Why is that? Because if somebody just tried to assinate you, don't you think you'd be a little more wary of another attack? If possible, the skill could be individual specific, so that having a sin friend force stealth on you wouldnt raise your awareness lvl so you could see ALL sins.

Suggestion two: Have a cast time for the force stealth skill. Make it so the skill can't be interupted, but it takes afew seconds to cast. This does afew things: 1 being, it gives the assassin an escape route like they had before, BUT it will require some forethought and skill to use it correctly. Another thing it does, is it gives people a chance to finish the sin off. Once again, the sin must think ahead, and pick battles that they can actually win. Atm a problem is that 7X sins will attack 9X robes because even if the attempt fails, they cant be 1 shotted, and they can always force stealth. But now, they must fight it out, and a 5second cast time would make it suicidal to attack someone that many levels higher (as it is for EVERY SINGLE CLASS besides sins).

Suggestion three: Another possible change, although probably not one any sins would like:
Attacks for x amount of time after leaving force stealth deal 50% less damage/the first attack will not stun/seal/sleep the target. (x would not be a long duration, simply long enough to prevent the sin force stealthing to waste an opponent's survival skills/spark/etc and then unstealth and kill them easily).- thought of by Shadowfire

Suggestion four:
I think that certain AoEs should not require a target. Any magical AoE that is centered around the user should work without one (ex. Siren's Kiss, Aqua Cannon). And certain melee skills like Heaven's Flame also don't appear to need one - so why should they? This would allow Shadow Escape to be used 100% in PvE situations, where especially lower assassins depend on it. But it also gives a realistic and reasonable means for other classes to defend themselves and kill their assassins.-brought up by Euphy (as she stated, this is an old idea she just reposted :P)

Suggestion 5:
Keep all skills the same for sins...
Just make stealth consume chi (I'm thinking like 5 chi per second maybe? That's still 20 seconds per chi bar)
It gets rid of the easy "perma-stealth", it makes perfect sense of shadow escape to give a spark (20 seconds of stealth to run away) and it makes sense for all the other ridiculous chi gaining skills for sins. Sin isn't knocked out of stealth when chi runs out.- thought of by ElderSig

Suggestion 6:
Whomever was attacked should be able to see the sin for x amount of time after they force stealth. I think that would be appropriate and not be considered a nerf. I mean, if someone is attacking you and you're engaged in actual combat, your awareness should be higher than someone not currently engaged in combat. Let the sin immediately disappear to anyone around them but slowly fade away to the person who was attacked would work for me. -thought of by Michael_dark

Suggestion 7:
Create a new OP class that can see assassin while it is in stealth. -thought of by PWI Devs

May edit post with more ideas/corrections later on. For now, tell me what you think. Trolls will be ignored. This isnt a flame thread either. I don't wanna see any fish racism.

One last note: I'm not complaining about sins being a broken overpowered class. The fact of the matter is, they are a NEW class. And as with anything new (especially with PWIb:shutup) there are going to be some quirks to work out. I know some people say that we just need to find a way to handle them, but I don't see any way to beat force stealth b:surrender

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Yeah, historically there also are no flying, magical swords or gourds. Not to mention flying mantarays and giant eagles.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

well they could remove all that, but I'm not sure how happy players would be about that b:shutup

besides, the historical aspect is just something to think about, the points about how it should be changed for the game are more important

Tekril - Dreamweaver

Where's the option for those of us that aren't 'sins that don't want it changed?

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

the one in the middle...

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

have you worn, if not ever at all considered, light armor? it sucks, it sucks BADLY. arcane classes get more defense than LA users for christ's sake! how fair do you think it that is? this is why they have skills to try and mitigate the weakness of LA. otherwise, they'd easily be trampled underfoot in one shot by any wizard with a decent refine, or HA classes for that matter.

wow, so you have one skill that makes you stand out in one, ONE, type of pvp. 1v1, and that makes it overpowered? assassins are horribad in group pvp, they're jokes in tw, they need one outstanding aspect to make them worth PVPing on. taking away their safety precautions is like the devs taking away stone barrier and undine.

Directive - Sanctuary

Have you tried detection pots? They are quite handy when facing sins.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

yes I know about LA and it's diminishing returns. And yes I'm aware they're bad in group pvp. But tbh, i disagree on the TW statement. They can wreck havok if the person behind the keyboard has half a brain.

Anyways! Just because they suck in 1 form of pvp doesnt mean they should have that much power in another. And like I said before, I'm not complaining about how fast they can kill people, without the person ever being able to attack back. I'm complaining that they can pick any fight they want, and not need to worry about the consequences.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Directive - Sanctuary wrote: »

Have you tried detection pots? They are quite handy when facing sins.

No, they're not. At all. You obviously havnt tried finding equal level sins on a non sin char. Sins have natural +20 sneak, so you cant see any sins your level or higher. Plus the potion takes up the place of a more useful potion.

Directive - Sanctuary

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

No, they're not. At all. You obviously havnt tried finding equal level sins on a non sin char. Sins have natural +20 sneak, so you cant see any sins your level or higher. Plus the potion takes up the place of a more useful potion.

Well I didn't bother to ask the lvl of the sins I found with these pots so I suppose you're right. I think rather than manipulating the skill directly a genie skill that increases stealth lvl temporarily might level out the playing field.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Directive - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well I didn't bother to ask the lvl of the sins I found with these pots so I suppose you're right. I think rather than manipulating the skill directly a genie skill that increases stealth lvl temporarily might level out the playing field.

expand on that idea and I'll add it to original post

Evanera - Heavens Tear

Okay..stealth in general needs nerfing, everyone should know that.
Sins bad in group PvP? A well geared sin and an at least half smart one is quite effective in group PvP, and it also takes some luck with that 1 damage magic skill they have or w.e (once hit a sin for 1 damage 4 times in a row..)

The detect pot issue hm ok..sure you can use one, will it work? No.
I don't understand what developers were thinking when they did this. But in order for a non sin to see a sin with a detect pot, they need to be the same level. Which is clearly stupid. Hell, there was a sin who leveled to 103 on our server just so he couldn't be seen at all.

Have you ever been attacked by an assassin, been hit 4 times when he's unsparked and died? I need to find someone who thinks this makes sense in any logical way.

I was PKing one day, and there was a decent fight going on. (no I'm not squishy) A sin popped out unsparked, hit me 4 times for roughly 1600~ each shot, and I died. But wait..I have 7k HP unbuffed..what happened there? Oh right..sins have a skill that can act as though the opponent has no charm? Because when I looked up he killed me with no charm tick.

Please, someone explain to me how that is logically fair :P

Directive - Sanctuary

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

expand on that idea and I'll add it to original post

It's just what it sounds like. Implement a genie skill, similar to Frenzy, in that it increases the caster's detection level for a short period of time based on the genie's level and/or the amount of points vested on an attribute. For example, cap the detect level increase at 15 for the maxed version of the skill and every X amount of Y attribute adds 1 more level.

The numbers may be too low or too high, but you get the rough idea.

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I Oh right..sins have a skill that can act as though the opponent has no charm? Because when I looked up he killed me with no charm tick.

O.O I didn't know such skill existed. I know Psys have some sort of increased charm cooldown skill. Don't quote me though I'm just a nub tuna fish. b:pleased

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

are detection pots available to the public now? i thought they were onlt available to raging tide owners

Evanera - Heavens Tear

No..that was sarcasm.

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

since when do sins have a skill that act like you have no charm? they arent psychics.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

since when do sins have a skill that act like you have no charm? they arent psychics.

Some people claim that 5 aps attacking can bypass charm without ticking it.

b:chuckle

sleepcat

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

have you worn, if not ever at all considered, light armor? it sucks, it sucks BADLY. arcane classes get more defense than LA users for christ's sake! how fair do you think it that is? this is why they have skills to try and mitigate the weakness of LA. otherwise, they'd easily be trampled underfoot in one shot by any wizard with a decent refine, or HA classes for that matter.

Because LA sucks and causes sins to be squishy, it is okay for them to have multiple abilities that completely negate the weakness of LA and allows them to pretty much dominate open world PKing. That makes sense.

Loarvion - Dreamweaver

its true 5 aps can bug charm and make it not work anyway back to topic force stealth is OP lets imagine that scenario me a cleric fighting a bm then midfight i decide i dont wanna fight anymore soo what do i do? i holy path to SZ and most probably owuld get pew pewed before i make it now lets c what a sin does he movs his mouse all the way to the skill's short cut summon enough streangth to actually push the button OMG how did they do it? and it taking 1 spark plz every skill they have gives crazy chi force stealth is OP


a good fix to it would be increase stealth lvl for lets say 5 secs then decrease stealth lvl by 40 for duration of shadow escape is on

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver

Actually Shadow escape GIVES you a spark when you use it, not use one. So, not only can you GTFO whenever you want, you get chi for doing it . . .

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

yup it gives a spark, so if your initial attack gained you 2 sparks, then you force stealthed, you could triple spark and own somebody as soon as you wanted to.

just doesnt seem fair tbh. Force stealth just needs some tweaks, then it'll be all good again

Deora - Lost City

I propose a fair compromise, a genie skill
Detection Enhance
130 energy
1500 stamina
180 Second cooldown
Increase your detection level by 3 points (each level increases by 3) for 15 seconds at the cost of causing you to take 25% more damage for 15 seconds
Every 10 genie str points reduces the damage increase effect by 1%
Every 10 genie dex points reduces the energy cost by 5

I say it'd be fair to sins as others just can't go around spamming it, and if you know a sin is in the area it lets you see them.

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

My thoughts about how to nerf Forced Stealth:

-Reduce the amount of chi gained after forcing stealth (or eliminate it/add a chi cost to activate it since they already ooze chi like no other class can =P)

-Make it so that any attacks/buffs that were on cooldown upon forcing stealth "freeze", as in they have to unstealth somewhere safe and let their skill CDs finish. I think that would deal with the problem of sins waiting in stealth and then picking at their prey whenever their cooldowns are done. This might be a bit drastic, but they'll still get away easier than other classes can...they just wont be able to harass others as easily after escaping.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

The problem isnt detecting a sin before you are attacked by them, i know that's part of their "thing."

THE ONLY THING I'm complaining about is that they can choose when to end a fight with no consequences. that is the ONLY problem for me.

btw, taking on 25% more damage is suicidal...sin would just tele to you, stun, ribstrike, headhunt, etc. That stuff wipes people out with normal damage, but 25% more damage? forget it.

ntkn

Historically, there was no "force stealth" for them to disapear from infront of the enemies eyes so they could try again in 5minutes.

this is false.... historically, assasins would wear clothing to "blend into the darkness" aka full black clothing. since long ago there were hardly any lights and nearly pitch black in most areas, using full black clothing was the natural thing to do.

they might not call it "stealth" but they do call it another name, "camouflage". it goes way back. and it pretty much has the same effect.

so if you really want to get technical about it, a good enough camouflaged person could be standing 5 feet away from you and you will never know it if the eye is untrained. and since assassins specialized in *gasp* assassination, most of there targets did not have that "trained eye" to see them coming.


this also related to the "sharp observer" skill. a trained assassins eye can see another camouflaged assassin because they have that "trained eye" aka "sharp observer".


oh ya, and lol at biased poll.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

My thoughts about how to nerf Forced Stealth:

-Reduce the amount of chi gained after forcing stealth (or eliminate it/add a chi cost to activate it since they already ooze chi like no other class can =P)

-Make it so that any attacks/buffs that were on cooldown upon forcing stealth "freeze", as in they have to unstealth somewhere safe and let their skill CDs finish. I think that would deal with the problem of sins waiting in stealth and then picking at their prey whenever their cooldowns are done. This might be a bit drastic, but they'll still get away easier than other classes can...they just wont be able to harass others as easily after escaping.

Sins can already do this. Force stealth from danger, go hide in a tree out of eyeshot, wait for everything to cooldown (while not in stealth) then go back in 5min when you're all ready to go.
I like my 2nd suggestion most because it forces the sin to think ahead, and makes force stealth and absolute, **** hit the fan, last option.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

ntkn wrote: »

this is false.... historically, assasins would wear clothing to "blend into the darkness" aka full black clothing. since long ago there were hardly any lights and nearly pitch black in most areas, using full black clothing was the natural thing to do.

they might not call it "stealth" but they do call it another name, "camouflage". it goes way back. and it pretty much has the same effect.

so if you really want to get technical about it, a good enough camouflaged person could be standing 5 feet away from you and you will never know it if the eye is untrained. and since assassins specialized in *gasp* assassination, most of there targets did not have that "trained eye" to see them coming.


this also related to the "sharp observer" skill. a trained assassins eye can see another camouflaged assassin because they have that "trained eye" aka "sharp observer".


oh ya, and lol at biased poll.

Yes, I'm okay with the sin being able to creep up on me. But once a sin REVEALS themselves for the kill, they're no longer hiding in the shadows, they are out for the world to see, and they have to get the job done quick, or possibly get killed.

An example is ninjas. They would sneak around Samurai's, and assassinate them. But in a fair one on one fight, if the initial assassination attempt didnt kill the samurai, the samurai almost ALWAYS killed the ninja.

they couldnt "disapear into the shadows" to get away. They had to run away, like the rest of us do.

Deora - Lost City

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

btw, taking on 25% more damage is suicidal...

I say there has to be some kind of trade off on using it... 99% of the time sins will die incredibly easy in PvP... hell I have decent gear and pretty nice hp and I drop like a fly if more then one person can attack me or any decent magic user (as in same gear or better then me) attacks me

ntkn

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yes, I'm okay with the sin being able to creep up on me. But once a sin REVEALS themselves for the kill, they're no longer hiding in the shadows, they are out for the world to see, and they have to get the job done quick, or possibly get killed.

An example is ninjas. They would sneak around Samurai's, and assassinate them. But in a fair one on one fight, if the initial assassination attempt didnt kill the samurai, the samurai almost ALWAYS killed the ninja.

they couldnt "disapear into the shadows" to get away. They had to run away, like the rest of us do.

if the assassin/ninja can actually escape after there assassination attempt failed, they can easily run into a forest area/back into a very dark area and hide again.

this is assuming they actually escape after the attempt failed. so yes, they can hide again even after they revealed themselves.


in other words, run and hide. thats usually what happens when you failed to kill someone. you either A) get cought, or get the hell out of there and hide again.

its the same concept with force stealth. its mainly a skill that helps u escape from someone u cant kill. like if u were to atk a barb and he had a bit more HP then u could chew. force stealth and get the hell out of there.


also, you REALLY shouldnt be using real world logic to a game. this is, after all, a game where pigs can fly. oh, and theres no such thing as magic historically. and i see that your a wizzard

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

sounds to me like they escape the combat situation, and hide again...which would mean they're just using stealth, not force stealth...

plus, trying to assassinate that very same samurai/individual would be suicidal, cuz they would obviously be much more wary of another would-be assassination.

ntkn

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

sounds to me like they escape the combat situation, and hide again...which would mean they're just using stealth, not force stealth...

plus, trying to assassinate that very same samurai/individual would be suicidal, cuz they would obviously be much more wary of another would-be assassination.

this is true, but force stealth is the same concept. the difference? you go invisible.


unless, you want to tell me the historical accuracy of shooting lighting bolts from your hand as a wizzard. not to mention the biological make up for tiger/panda/wolf barbarians. .b:surrender