Force Stealth Nerf

Born_Free - Harshlands

Let's get this out of the way--

15 mana a second: Go by that for me again? Seriously? How much mana does a person have by the time they hit, let's say, my level?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=20746bb3bb2eb103

This is Phil. Phil's gear is 100% non-CS'd. His stuff is pretty average.

Now what's 1705 divided by 15?
113.6 repeating?
Good answer.

So rounding that up, a Sin my level can stay in stealth mode for about 114 seconds.
How long is that? Do the math, THEN tell me if that's 'fair' or not.

Now let's talk about the spark. How long does it take any other class to gain a spark?
For me personally, I have to spam Black/White Voodoo at LEAST 8 times, or stack it with other self buffs.

But an Assassin can just go into Stealth and boom, you have a spark?
Absolute ****.

Quilue - Sanctuary

LMAO complaining about 15 mana/s. How do i keep barrage up in TW? that's 540 every 3s.

The balancing factor in stealth is OBVIOUSLY the mana cost

Lalius - Lost City

I am (as posted off topic in some other thread) in favor of a complete nerf of stealth in pvp only. In my opinion, if you stealthed you should vanish from nearby players list, your name and fac display over your head should vanish, your dot on the mini map as well and you should not be able to be targeted with tab. BUT players should still see you like you see yourself when you stealth and be able to click and target you manually. That way it would need some more skill to hide yourself and force stealth wouldn't make a big difference. It would make both playing as and playing against sin more fun.

truekossy

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Let's get this out of the way--

15 mana a second: Go by that for me again? Seriously? How much mana does a person have by the time they hit, let's say, my level?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=20746bb3bb2eb103

This is Phil. Phil's gear is 100% non-CS'd. His stuff is pretty average.

Now what's 1705 divided by 15?
113.6 repeating?
Good answer.

So rounding that up, a Sin my level can stay in stealth mode for about 114 seconds.
How long is that? Do the math, THEN tell me if that's 'fair' or not.

And let's not forget that a single level 70 MP pot will get that sin back to full mana within 10 seconds. And that's without considering the ones who have a cleric buff and equips that give +5 to MP regen or something of the sort.

Deora - Lost City

Aelo - Harshlands wrote: »

There are a few sins on HF that unless you are a barb it makes no difference wether you can see them or not (6 pieces of -intv gear and +10/12 weapons). How about these two sugestions:

1) Cap aps to 2/3max
That better apply to all classes then, as it would be quite unfair if it was sins only

2) Get rid of those jones/anniversary blessings
same goes for this... but everyone can have them so I see no issue with that

I would take those two changes and let sins keep their steath anyday. As a bonus how about a third suggestio:

3) Genie anti bleed skills didnt solve the nix issue. Nerf the bleed already.
Get better pdef, ijs, bleed ticks even with 3k pdef from a 100 nix is only like 200?

****youandyourcharacterlimit

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Deora - Lost City wrote: »

Get better pdef, ijs, bleed ticks even with 3k pdef from a 100 nix is only like 200?

More like 1.5k or 2k a tick.

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Let's get this out of the way--

15 mana a second: Go by that for me again? Seriously? How much mana does a person have by the time they hit, let's say, my level?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=20746bb3bb2eb103

This is Phil. Phil's gear is 100% non-CS'd. His stuff is pretty average.

Now what's 1705 divided by 15?
113.6 repeating?
Good answer.

So rounding that up, a Sin my level can stay in stealth mode for about 114 seconds.
How long is that? Do the math, THEN tell me if that's 'fair' or not.

this argument is null and void via apoth or cleric buff where the MP cost is outmatched by the regenerative rate of either or buff.

Xsay - Raging Tide

KK guys this is my 3rd post soo plzz try to flame me a little less.

LOl i can bet 30% yes came from those ppl which were killed by sins becose they used Force Stealth or Couldn't Kill them again Becose of Force Stealth

About Shadow Escape:- well in my point of view, why should it be nerfed?? Sins follow Hit and run tactics and BTW whoever said that a failed assassination Always Lead to sin getting Killed , You are Wrong. Read History carefully and u will find many Examples where Sins were failed to Kill Target but still managed to stay alive. And plzz tell me how the hell we can get smoke and Como..whatever in PWI. lol this is a game where elves lives, Barbs rolls and changes into White Tigers, BM can call Dragons and So does Mage too so what is the the point if sins can go invisible??? and a few thing to add on have u ever seen an sin in history walking around while not hiding himself/herself?? ans:- noo that's plan stupid. so that covers up u r limit the Shadow Escape part too. want more. go watch Ninja Assassin. in last fight if im not wrong didn't the hero used skill smiler to Shadow Escape but that's off topic. in my point of view. all im saying is there is noo need to Nerf Shadow Escape. this skill is just fine as it is. call me bias if u want too but limiting a assassins skill to go invisible is like adding a limit to clerics heals.. hiding in shadows and striking at right time again and again and again is what sins really do don't they??

About Chi Benefit :- One qus..If we sins could pass chi like venos would u still had been QQ about the Chi bonus ?? Now how can a sin going to kill a Target say that "Let me Build enough CHI before i kill u" . Sins are Killers soo they need a infinite amount of ChI. Why so they could use that Dragon or whatever 2nd Running skill is called >.> and also sins always need to plan carefully before fighting the target that which skills he/she would choose. so i don't think getting so much chi is wrong.
MIx both skills and u get a perfect escape skill and in my point of view sins need to have at-least this...But well that's just me

Alliptica - Raging Tide

my brain hurts...i love stealth! b:victory

kenlee

shadow escape should use 1 spark not give one spark imo... the skill itself can stay there idc

Deora - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

More like 1.5k or 2k a tick.

What nixes are hitting you o.o I haven't been hit that hard by a nix since this char was like 5x...

truekossy

Deora - Lost City wrote: »

What nixes are hitting you o.o I haven't been hit that hard by a nix since this char was like 5x...

3k phys def and you only take 200 a tick from Nix bleed?


Are you getting bled by level 10 nixes, by chance? Cause when I get hit by it on an 8X in LA, it does at least 1k per tick (when I actually let it run its course) if I'm up against a Nix that's 9X or above.

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

Some of you guys watch too many martial art/ninja movies.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Some of you guys watch too many martial art/ninja movies.

I know right? lol

Sins in PWI don't fit into any Ninja/assassin historical cliche.

Why?

Because last I check, these "Sneaky" assassins in history ya'll keep talking about couldn't run around at 10 m/s and produce flashy lights and still be unseen/heard.

P.S. They couldn't teleport for god's sake either.



Question for mini-discussion: Why give the assassins two teleports when they already gave them stealth?

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

I thought they already nerfed it enough for HA classes to have chance.

Deora - Lost City

truekossy wrote: »

3k phys def and you only take 200 a tick from Nix bleed?


Are you getting bled by level 10 nixes, by chance? Cause when I get hit by it on an 8X in LA, it does at least 1k per tick (when I actually let it run its course) if I'm up against a Nix that's 9X or above.

It was a 100 veno with a 100 nix...

Don't know what kind of mutant nix is attacking you

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Directive - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's just what it sounds like. Implement a genie skill, similar to Frenzy, in that it increases the caster's detection level for a short period of time based on the genie's level and/or the amount of points vested on an attribute. For example, cap the detect level increase at 15 for the maxed version of the skill and every X amount of Y attribute adds 1 more level.

This is the only idea I would support, I think it makes it fair for the other classes without making the assassin a useless PvP class.

EDIT: Also think that the Shadow Escape's cooldown is pretty long, a lot longer than Shadow Walk's one, you hardly can use it for second time in a battle before either kill your oponent or being killed.

Born_Free - Harshlands

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is the only idea I would support, I think it makes it fair for the other classes without making the assassin a useless PvP class.

EDIT: Also think that the Shadow Escape's cooldown is pretty long, a lot longer than Shadow Walk's one, you hardly can use it for second time in a battle before either kill your oponent or being killed.

Agreed.
/5char

ntkn

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I know right? lol

Sins in PWI don't fit into any Ninja/assassin historical cliche.

Why?

Because last I check, these "Sneaky" assassins in history ya'll keep talking about couldn't run around at 10 m/s and produce flashy lights and still be unseen/heard.

P.S. They couldn't teleport for god's sake either.



Question for mini-discussion: Why give the assassins two teleports when they already gave them stealth?

u should watch some naruto

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Both Shadow walk and shadow escape cast times are pretty long too, I've died more than once by mobs when I got attacked by 3 or more at same time and intented to shadow escape with less than a half of my HP bar bacause I just had a battle which made me spend the other half of my HP. So ppl, they're not that perfect skills, they already has their weak points. Need some skill to use them successfuly too.

Durdey - Harshlands

I have READ this ENTIRE Thread.

All I could make of it is a BUNCH of QQ'ing little nabs cry about one thing or another because a Sin can do this, a Sin can do that, a Sin ate my lunch. QQ QQ QQ

When is the last time YOU played your character well in PVP? Where someone stood by and said "wow, that guy was like 10 levels above you, and you owned them!" ???

If you NEVER heard that before, then quit crying about someone else that can play their class better than you at the PVP game.

Classes that should focus on how to PLAY their class.
1. BM: Use your defense and stuns to your advantage. Stunlocking your opponent reduces the damage you take while having full option to output damage on your opponent.
2. Cleric: Using your class requires knowing how to use your ORDER of ATTACK! Absolute Domain>Plume Shield>Sleep Sin>Spam IronHeart>Debuff Target>Spark>Use Best Single Attack>Spam skills until target is dead.
3.Barb: If you didn't build it like complete and utter ****, you go tiger form, Turtle, and Attack the Sin... If you cant kill the Sin because your accuracy is too low, then leave... Why waste the charm tick/pots?
4. Venomancer- Bramble Hood can mean the difference between surviving and not surviving. Perhaps go into Fox Form, Send Pet to bleed target, and RUN. If You create distance, keep pet alive and spam attacks. Use Absolute domain to start the fun surviving. If you think the sin is going back into stealth, try to hit them with a bleed, a poison, and whatever dot attacks you can come up with. If you dont kill him with that, then i guess you should consider leveling up or possibly upgrading your weapon.

5. Wizzards, A clever use of Expel and Silence of your target can go a long way. When on a sin, if you SILENCE the target, they cannot go back into stealth.

6. Archers, You... are probably the worst enemy for a sin, we can barely get a hit in, and when we do, you seem to always have that shield up while you're stunning us and kiting. I dont see archers having much problem with sins. They have the tools to survive our attacks if they are played right.

7. Psy, I dont know this class very well, but your nuke is intense, and you have more than enough tools at hand to survive any beginning attack, if you cant kill a sin after that, then level up, level up your weapon, or learn to play better. Not much can help you because your character design was to check mate the sins.

8 Sin... level up... Or be better than the other guy.

And ANY FREAKING CLASS can become OP as **** with enough REAL LIFE MONEY!
This is a Free to Play, but a PAY to Win.
Those OP Sins didnt get what they have, or the level they're at by hard work. They had some form of funding that put them in a position to become strong... where they dont need to do much to get ahead.


Any freaking idiot who knows how to play their class better than the other guy can win in a PVP battle. Reguardless if you think so or not, the system is balanced and doesnt need much to overcome the other guy. I may have killed thousands ontop of thousands, but that's only after ive killed thousands ontop of thousands while being a Venomancer.

Look up Ayekim on the Harshland's PVP rankings... the Highest Ranked Venomancer, Level 86 that still holds in the top 10.

You want PVP abilities? EARN IT, BUY IT, or GTFO and STOP your LAME QQing.

GreenBeans - Dreamweaver

I dont think stealth should be nerfed anymore than i think my heals should be but it is a pain in the ***.

Azura - Lost City

I think force stealth may be OP because that skill gives them a 100% gurantee to gtfo. If you are not a sin and decide to retreat, you still have to run to safe zone and "have faith"
that no one will be able to land some movement debuff skill. Also, this skill GIVES one spark while Ep's plume shield, BM's red spring, veno's bramble hood or feral concentration, wizard's leap, etc USES chi.

However, to be honest the only sins that give me trouble are the ones that have highly refined weapons, most of the time being nirvana weapons. They are a few that have +12 2nd cast nirvana daggers with zerk. That is very deadly, however these sins drop like flies because their armor doesn't have that much refine, even though they have full nirvana set with cube necklace and warsong belt. Nevertheless, the cash shoppers sins with bad *** +12 rank8 daggers and around 10k hp unbuffed must be hard to kill with a +6 weapon. So far, I haven't killed one of those 1vs1 yet.

All the other sins I have found die in 1 or 2 shots.

Oh I forgot to say something: If a sin pop outs, fails to kill you, and then goes back to stealth, don't just wait over there, move ot another area...

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Durdey - Harshlands wrote: »

I have READ this ENTIRE Thread.

All I could make of it is a BUNCH of QQ'ing little nabs cry about one thing or another because a Sin can do this, a Sin can do that, a Sin ate my lunch. QQ QQ QQ

When is the last time YOU played your character well in PVP? Where someone stood by and said "wow, that guy was like 10 levels above you, and you owned them!" ???

If you NEVER heard that before, then quit crying about someone else that can play their class better than you at the PVP game.

First of all: sins are the easiest class to pk with an take the least skill, so you have little room to talk. I've raised a sin to 5X on Harsh, and I can easily pk robes that are 10-15 levels higher if they're average gear. And it has nothing to do with their skill level, I just attack from stealth and they never even hit back.
But that's fine by me, robes should be owned by sins, it's part of life.

What I DONT like is when a sin fails to kill someone, then force stealths. For any other class, you would be screwed. But with a sin? Force stealth and try again. There is NO penalty. If you've ever been owned after failing an attack, then you're also a fail sin, period. If I failed, and my target got a hit in, deaden nerves would save me. Even as they attack me with a would-be-k0 move, I already have my finger moving towards the force stealth key.


Oh and I play my class well. I dont pk on my wiz yet because PvE servers only have 9X+ people in pk mode (maybe some exceptions [assassins who kill 9X robes], but most are that lvl), but in PvE and TW I get compliments for doing what I need to do well.

Deora - Lost City

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

First of all: sins are the easiest class to pk with an take the least skill, so you have little room to talk. I've raised a sin to 5X on Harsh, and I can easily pk robes that are 10-15 levels higher if they're average gear. And it has nothing to do with their skill level, I just attack from stealth and they never even hit back.
But that's fine by me, robes should be owned by sins, it's part of life.

What I DONT like is when a sin fails to kill someone, then force stealths. For any other class, you would be screwed. But with a sin? Force stealth and try again. There is NO penalty. If you've ever been owned after failing an attack, then you're also a fail sin, period. If I failed, and my target got a hit in, deaden nerves would save me. Even as they attack me with a would-be-k0 move, I already have my finger moving towards the force stealth key.


Oh and I play my class well. I dont pk on my wiz yet because PvE servers only have 9X+ people in pk mode (maybe some exceptions [assassins who kill 9X robes], but most are that lvl), but in PvE and TW I get compliments for doing what I need to do well.

Ive tried to reason with you... I have a few "fair" compromises with that genie skill I came up with... and then you continue to post **** like that...

Shadow Escape can be canceled and I have had that happen several times before, as short as .7 seconds is, it is more then enough to prevent you from getting away, and you wanted it to be 5 seconds that just insanity, have you ever tried channeling mountain seize? From the looks of it you just aren't happy pk is mostly skewed towards wizards in the 90s/100s anymore...

Durdey - Harshlands

You sound like you're doing nothing but QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ.

Sins are an easy class to PK with because it's the reccomended class to PK. It is not a PVE class by any means except for damage, and there are MANY other options for better DD's in PVE.

And what's wrong with being the ONLY class that can End a fight at their leisure under the standards that: they opponent isnt a higher level sin, or your opponent isnt higher level AND has sin pots, or you get stuck in an aoe attack, OR someone finishes you off with a spell that was casted pre-forced-stealth...

Barbs are the ONLY Class that can truly take hits and have a survivability rate... Sins have a difficult time killing proper built barbs with enough refines to fund a small country.

Wizzards are the only class that can do the top-end-nuke-single-hit-damage. They are the masters at one shot. Altho it's speculated that a well played psy may come close.

Archers are the only class that can hit past 30 meters and the only current class that can wield a weapon that purges others randomly.

Venomancers are the only class that can purge someone as a skill. And the ONLY class that can use a pet for battle purposes.


So dont get all QQ'ey on me just because sins are the only class that has one unique skill that no other class posesses. Because that's the name of the game.

Why dont u become man enough to NOT cry about one class that's mainly played by the sadistic people than the wholesome group.

We sins are not clerics, we will not support you... You **** us off well enough, we will stalk you for hours, killing you repeatedly until your silly *** finds a way to teleport away to an instance.

Sins are not friendly people, ive seen this. People choose sins because they want to kill people in a surprising fashon. We enjoy it with a passion. We enjoy your little QQ rants about how PK is bannable... then we laugh at you and properly inform you that PK isnt bannable and that you need to grow some balls so people dont make fun of you all the time. As someone who has well over 10k registered kills over 2 accounts... You can kill anyone as many times as you want. it's not the killing that gets you banned, but your mouth on how u talk soo much smack afterwards.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Deora - Lost City wrote: »

It was a 100 veno with a 100 nix...

Don't know what kind of mutant nix is attacking you

I dont think you were being hit by flesh ream. 200 is a nix pecking at you maybe but a 100 nix does 1.5-2k bleed per tick on a 3k pdef target.

I have like 5.3k pdef unbuffed and take like 1.3k or so from a lvl 100 nix bleed.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Durdey - Harshlands wrote: »

Sins are not friendly people, ive seen this. People choose sins because they want to kill people in a surprising fashon.

Which is fine. i get that. Assassins should be able to assinate.

But able to run away at any time without any reprecussions? no thanks.

Oh and I wish the sins would stop complaining to me about survivability. I'm a wiz, I know what squishiness is like. Oh, and I cant force stealth when an archer attacks me either. I have to kill, be killed, or run n pray.

If you don't like the 5sec channel then recomend something realisticly less. 3 seconds I could live with. Maybe 2

And yes i've casted mountain sieze, not just in pk, but in TW. You know, the big flashy circle that leads to a mountain? Ya, done it in TW's. Is it hard? ya. Would I recomend spamming it? No. Is it a last ditch, freeze the cata squad attack? yup.

Nuallan - Raging Tide

IMO, Shadow Escape does need to be nerfed a bit. In another game I played (N******m, TSC) which had sins, the stealthing was a hell lot different from PWI. No stealthing while near other players or monsters, 40 sec CD, 3 other classes with detection skills, no using potions/buffs/etc while in stealth, the list goes on. Sins also didn't have the OP buffs sins in PWI have (deaden nerves, 1 damage from skills, etc). Hell, they didn't have any buffs until endgame. To balance that, though, sins in that game were capable of 2 shotting any other class (but that required some luck). There were also AoEs in that game which didn't require a target to be used, and the damage would knock a sin out of stealth

However, in PWI, not only do sins have shadow escape, they GET spark from using it, there are no skills which can detect them, there are 2 stealth skills, they cannot be seen by anyone lower level than them, and to top all that off, they can still drop any other class in a few hits (or GTFO with shadow escape if they can't, for some reason).

There are absolutely no drawbacks from using shadow escape (every skill that gives certain players large advantages over other players should have a drawback). The detection methods in this game are limited to detection pots (which is useless if the sin is higher level than you) and AoEs which need a target to be used. Most of the time, however, a target is not available to use the AoE on. If you say 15 mana/sec is a drawback...well...get some pots >_>

Of course, no argument is complete without a suggestion, so here's what I think:
1. Give another class a detection skill with a certain range and detection level boost.
OR 2. (As someone else suggested) Let certain AoEs be used without having a target, like the Fissure/HF for BM, Siren's Kiss for clerics, etc.
OR 3. Limit the amount of time sins can spend in Shadow Escape.
OR 4. Any of the other suggestions I've read, like freezing skill CDs while in shadow escape, are viable

Deora - Lost City

Its always the people on carebear servers that complain the most about PvP... you don't see a giant influx of complaints like this all the damn time from LC or Ghostlands do you? PvP complaints alwayyyyyyyyyyssssssssss come from carebear servers...