Force Stealth Nerf

AlbireoTwo - Lost City

I want-

5 aps nerfed: Too easy to kill people.
Venos nerfed: Too hard to kill venos when they're half a mile away.
Wizards nerfed: They shouldn't be able to kite away as soon as you get close to them.
Archers nerfed: They shouldn't have such high accuracy, they hardly ever miss, which is unfair.
Assassins nerfed: Force stealth lets them sneak up on people, which is unfair. Everyone should have atleast a 3 minute warning before an attack.
Psychics nerfed: They should....uhm........
Clerics nerfed: They shouldn't be able to heal themselves. Historically, nobody has been able to heal themself by mumbling some words when they're close to death. It's unfair.
Barbs nerfed: They shouldn't have such high hp. They're too hard to kill.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Because we all know everything is balanced perfectly. /facepalm

Just to give you a heads up that the PWE or PWB devs do indeed consider it imbalanced, because FW's stealth is different and has many counters to it. But of course, to some people, both games will be "balanced" even though it's a contradiction.

Because, no matter what, games are always balanced!

There is a difference between a QQ and some reasonable details of why the complaint was made in the first place. This thread has shown plenty of examples and good arguments. The people who constantly spam the same **** "nerf X for Y" for every class in every single balance thread regardless of topic never have, and never will. But I guess it probably shows you have no idea how to balance or design a game.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Nerf Shadow Escape?

NO

/thread

P.S. If we nerfed everything that everyone was upset about, everyone would be unhappy.

b:bye

Quoted for true.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Eeeeh. I can see points on both sides of the fence, if you will that make a lot of common sense in general.

Now of course, Michael has a point. Archers, wizards, psychics, AA or LA venos - they'd all complain about force stealth because they are a more appropriate target for a Sin and are more likely to see the Sin force stealth and run if they happen to survive. In comparison, a BM or barb isn't likely to complain because they aren't all that likely to die at the daggers of a Sin, either, and thus to them this question for nerf seems null and void and little more then a complaint.

I find myself agreeing, in general. I don't mind being stealth'd up on and I don't mind Shadow Escape as a tactical plan to disappear and then reappear from behind me within the next several seconds. But I do see a bit of a problem.

Every class has the ability to escape, but not to half the same extent. If an archer or a wizard picks a fight with somebody they clearly aren't going to win against, they have their genie skills/stun immune/shrink distance at the ready. But they are still limited. They are still limited in terms of escape and the person they attacked can still potentially target and hit them before they can get to safety. As such, this is the same for all classes except Sins. This is where Shadow Escape isn't necessarily OP, more then downright ****ing annoying.

A Sin has the ability to attack anybody of any level within their ability to stealth and disappear in front of (as clearly this argument is null and void should the other person still be able to see them while in stealth.) They can then force stealth whenever the battle doesn't go their way - including if they have absolutely no chance of winning - and get away with ease. There are very few limitations to Shadow Escape in comparison to the ability to flee by the other classes. Again, it's NOT OP. It is, by comparison, highly unfair. Fact of the matter is if you pick a fight with somebody a lot bigger than you, you need to be prepared to die even as you try and escape. Sins are not limited by this, as provided they can stealth probably and go invisible they are very much free to walk away from that fight entirely alive unless they do something stupid.

Should it be nerfed? Well you can't really nerf it to the point it's not unfair any more. They're still going to be able to force stealth away from you, and the chances are they're still going to be invisible even if it was nerfed. An increased awareness might counter the skill but then it also renders it completely useless in terms of PvP - and the Assassin is heavily PvP oriented in terms of 1v1. You are basically asking them to nerf an aspect of the class that makes them that class. So.... yeah. It's unfair, I won't deny it, but nerfing it isn't the best solution either.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

I insist, every class has an "unfair advantage" which other classes haven't, but that's their identity. Assassins are made to kill others better than any other classes, the class name says it. And the shadow escape skill is made that way to give assassins that extra chance to assassinate their target, that's why the skill gives 1 spark instead of taking it. As I sayd before, no matter what skills it takes, assassins are made to assassinate better than any other class in game.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I insist, every class has an "unfair advantage" which other classes haven't, but that's their identity. Assassins are made to kill others better than any other classes, the class name says it. And the shadow escape skill is made that way to give assassins that extra chance to assassinate their target, that's why the skill gives 1 spark instead of taking it. As I sayd before, no matter what skills it takes, assassins are made to assassinate better than any other class in game.

I've been looking at your posts throughout the thread and I have to admit this: you're exceptionally good at missing the point anybody has to make.

Every class has an unfair advantage? I'd beg to disagree in all honesty. Before Tideborn came out, the classes were generally balanced. This isn't including the heavy cash shopping/seriously heavy farming archers or wizards or odd BM who clearly had an unfair advantage over everybody else their level simply because of insane gears.

The Assassins are very much game breaking in terms of PvP balance. Shadow Escape is designed to run from an enemy or potential group of enemies and then come back before they can prepare - in theory. However, what we are arguing right now is how easy this is to completely abuse.

Assassins are made to kill faster in 1v1 then any other class, they are not designed to run up, attack somebody they stand no chance of winning against and then force stealth to make the entire fight null and void. Being able to run away and come back to fight is an advantage, and an annoying one, but being able to escape practically any fight with no repercussions and a near 0% chance of dying because your enemy can no longer see and attack you? That is unfair, and it's not even an advantage.

Please learn to read and comprehend a point before you try and talk like you know it all. I was not talking about Shadow Escape when used in a situation to kill an opponent, I was discussing it's sheer unfair ability to allow a Sin to run away from nearly every fight they pick, including impossible ones.

No other class in this game can attack somebody they have no chance of winning against, and then magically disappear so they have a 0% chance of dying.

Longknife - Harshlands

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However, what we are arguing right now is how easy this is to completely abuse.

Again, this is exactly my thought on the matter. Assassin as a class itself is NOT overpowered. If every assassin were to simply jump players that aren't distracted and use the same "honor code" other classes use, we wouldn't see all the QQing. The problem is that people are dooshbags, and always will be. You give them stealth, and what do they do with it? Use it to jump targets -THE- moment they let their guard down.


The problem is this and simply this: This is a game that people play in their free time for fun. In PVP, it's a competition not unlike any sport, where people wanna test their skill and try to win. If you take a real life fighter, they have the same principles a PW Blademaster has: to fight their hardest and try to win. No problem there since the purpose carries over perfectly. If you take a real life assassin however....A real life assassin is a well-paid professional whose job it is to eliminate a political figure, usually in the hopes of getting some sort of political reaction from the kill. The assassin likely feels that the desired political reaction is very important for his country, and thus he's willing to be unbelievably patient and wait for the perfect chance to take the political figure out. The assassin isn't seeking to test his skill, nor is he being competitive, nor is ANY amount of the political figure's skills being measured.
In Perfect World however, our assassins have the exact same goal as everyone else: they wanna have fun, compete and try to win. Since stealth is all they can do, it's what they do of course; no one just says "wait this style of play might be annoying for my opponents. I should reroll a nicer class." The result is we have tons of players running around waiting for ridiculously opportune moments to strike. Since they only take really favorable opportunities, they usually win a lot more than they lose. Since they win more than they lose, they develop huge egos and spend way too much time bragging and swinging their power stick around. And since their "political figure" actually respawns, they'll do it again and again and again. This means that if an assassin shadows you, you can't chat, you can't fight someone else, you can't go to the bathroom. It's damn annoying. What's worse is that if you do go to the bathroom and get killed while AFK, you'll come back to some egotistical sin giving you a speech about how he's practically a God and how you're a pathetic worm for even daring to challenge his power. Mind you, this is coming from me, and the majority of sins that stalk me do so after killing themselves on my shield. YES, I meet sins all the time who will give me speeches about "how dare you challenge my power you worm" after GETTING THEMSELVES KILLED WHILE STARTING A FIGHT WITH ME. They've got serious ego issues.



Personally, I'd love to have a stealth class. I really would, cause I think they're fun and unique and offer a different style of strategy and gameplay. However, after one to many MMOs, I'm sad to say I simply don't see it happening. I can't name a single game where the stealth class isn't considered to be one of the more powerful ones, and it's simply because of how stealth always ALWAYS gets abused. Even in games where stealth is on a timer.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Snipped

Completely agree.

We get d-bags and morons in all of the classes, but in terms of PvP the Sin ego seems to be the most prominent, shall we say. I have absolutely no problem with somebody using stealth and sneaking up on an unsuspecting target, that's the whole point. And there are plenty of ways to guard against an Assassin, albeit timing is everything and all too often you can just be that little bit slow and end up dead. There are plenty of nice Sins out there too who aren't completer asshats about PvP and are generally quite nice to be around.

But I will be honest, while I have seen egotistical archers, BMs, wizards, venos, any class in fact, I've seen more egotistical Sins. Their ability to run away from nearly any fight they pick if they won't win it (and by run away I don't mean come back and try to carry on killing you, I mean run away into a SZ and then sit there laughing at you because they think they're so cool to have gotten away with something) is downright annoying and highly abused.

It's why I've said that you can't really nerf Shadow Escape because it's not the skill itself at fault, more then the fact that a great deal of Sins that use it will use and abuse it to stroke their own e-peen and let themselves think they got away with something other than being a complete annoyance.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Completely agree.

We get d-bags and morons in all of the classes, but in terms of PvP the Sin ego seems to be the most prominent, shall we say. I have absolutely no problem with somebody using stealth and sneaking up on an unsuspecting target, that's the whole point. And there are plenty of ways to guard against an Assassin, albeit timing is everything and all too often you can just be that little bit slow and end up dead. There are plenty of nice Sins out there too who aren't completer asshats about PvP and are generally quite nice to be around.

But I will be honest, while I have seen egotistical archers, BMs, wizards, venos, any class in fact, I've seen more egotistical Sins. Their ability to run away from nearly any fight they pick if they won't win it (and by run away I don't mean come back and try to carry on killing you, I mean run away into a SZ and then sit there laughing at you because they think they're so cool to have gotten away with something) is downright annoying and highly abused.

It's why I've said that you can't really nerf Shadow Escape because it's not the skill itself at fault, more then the fact that a great deal of Sins that use it will use and abuse it to stroke their own e-peen and let themselves think they got away with something other than being a complete annoyance.

Welcome back Airy

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

One suggestion I made a long time ago was that whomever was attacked should be able to see the sin for x amount of time after they force stealth. I think that would be appropriate an not be considered a nerf. I mean, if someone is attacking you and you're engaged in actual combat, your awareness should be higher than someone not currently engaged in combat. Let the sin immediately disappear to anyone around them but slowly fade away to the person who was attacked would work for me.

Good suggestion, I'll put it up b:pleased

Ninjaaaa - Lost City wrote: »

when Mod gona close this thread 2 much hate on sins DAAAM 2 Much nerf ideas iam just getting bored each time i click on general discussion i see this thread keep pop up again ok move on ppl find something 2 talk about Nerfing go back talk about packs just let the Sins alone ok 4 the 100 Time NOTHING WILL BE NERFED NOTHING WILL BE FIXED NOTHING WILL CHANG ABOUT SINS OK move on let it go you dont like simple quit and ty the dev only gona do is 2 add a detection genie skill thats all dont hope something will be nerfed trust me that what they gona do add new genies skillz (end of Discussion) hope dont see this thread keep poping up so annoying

for christ sake, please try using some punctuation! I don't even read your posts anymore, the insane wall of text is just too much.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

/inb4 a nub makes a long list explaining why all classes are OP and what needs to be nerfed because they think they're so smart for pointing out what the rest of us normal humans (and magichamsta) already know

AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »

I want-

5 aps nerfed: Too easy to kill people.
Venos nerfed: Too hard to kill venos when they're half a mile away.
Wizards nerfed: They shouldn't be able to kite away as soon as you get close to them.
Archers nerfed: They shouldn't have such high accuracy, they hardly ever miss, which is unfair.
Assassins nerfed: Force stealth lets them sneak up on people, which is unfair. Everyone should have atleast a 3 minute warning before an attack.
Psychics nerfed: They should....uhm........
Clerics nerfed: They shouldn't be able to heal themselves. Historically, nobody has been able to heal themself by mumbling some words when they're close to death. It's unfair.
Barbs nerfed: They shouldn't have such high hp. They're too hard to kill.

Omg someone does it again. I had to check my class to make sure I wasn't a psychic after another person did exactly as I predicted b:chuckle


BTW: we have officially passed the 10k views checkpoint b:victory
keep up the debate and competition people, eventually I feel we'll find or perfect a solution that a majority of us can be happy with b:pleased

Nyxya - Harshlands

-if i would have a cent for every time i force stealth to avoid death and got aoed and push out stealth and guess what...die ofc.... i could buy lot of Starbucks mocha +3 extra shot and whip cream ofc b:laugh
-also 1 cent for every time i buff myself ad double spark to make kill and targets move away or fly and i have to bail ..would buy lot of sushi i guess:Db:cute
-you guys need play a sin to really grasp the class and all his weaknessb:surrender

Quilue - Sanctuary

Ya it's too bad that you don't have some sort of teleport move that could stun and had long range.

Ninjaaaa - Lost City

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

is assassin Hater no more comments and yes i chang color and make it bigger so he can read it ones he open the page b:bye

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Ninjaaaa - Lost City wrote: »

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

is assassin Hater no more comments and yes i chang color and make it bigger so he can read it ones he open the page b:bye

If you're going to try and belittle somebody, do it properly. For example:

"is an Assassin hater, no further comment. And yes, I changed the font colour and made it bigger so he can read it once he opens the page."

Now that you've proven you're both a moron, and that you can't type, kindly GTFO this thread and let the adults and sensible people carry on discussing it as they have been. Back to the kiddy sandbox with you.

DrunkWizard - Lost City

wut u expect from someone who names their sin "Ninjaaaa" o-o instead of Ninja_ or w.e.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I've been looking at your posts throughout the thread and I have to admit this: you're exceptionally good at missing the point anybody has to make.

Every class has an unfair advantage? I'd beg to disagree in all honesty. Before Tideborn came out, the classes were generally balanced. This isn't including the heavy cash shopping/seriously heavy farming archers or wizards or odd BM who clearly had an unfair advantage over everybody else their level simply because of insane gears.

The Assassins are very much game breaking in terms of PvP balance. Shadow Escape is designed to run from an enemy or potential group of enemies and then come back before they can prepare - in theory. However, what we are arguing right now is how easy this is to completely abuse.

Assassins are made to kill faster in 1v1 then any other class, they are not designed to run up, attack somebody they stand no chance of winning against and then force stealth to make the entire fight null and void. Being able to run away and come back to fight is an advantage, and an annoying one, but being able to escape practically any fight with no repercussions and a near 0% chance of dying because your enemy can no longer see and attack you? That is unfair, and it's not even an advantage.

Please learn to read and comprehend a point before you try and talk like you know it all. I was not talking about Shadow Escape when used in a situation to kill an opponent, I was discussing it's sheer unfair ability to allow a Sin to run away from nearly every fight they pick, including impossible ones.

No other class in this game can attack somebody they have no chance of winning against, and then magically disappear so they have a 0% chance of dying.

I do understand what you're discussing here, but what I'm saying is that the shadow escape skill is made to give an assassin a "second chance" to kill his oponent, if he fails the 1st try, because that's what assassins are suposed to do, to win most of 1 vs 1 battles, I repeat, no matter what skills it takes. Now the shadow escape skill doesn't grant a successful assassination anyway, cuz many assassins have been defeated even so, it just makes it a lot hard, but yah, that's the only thing in which assassins are hardly defeated, in 1 vs 1 battles, not in another situations.

Talking about the chance to escape and stop trying to kill a target which is impossible to kill, that wasn't the topic in this thread, but if you want my opinion, a player who escapes from a battle, is as defeated as one who die, so I don't care there. Also shadow escape isn't the only skill you can use to escape from a battle U see you're gonna lose, you can also use holy path genie skill, or any other seemed to that, or even apho remedies which raises your speed a lot for a short period of time, so that possibility assassins have to escape from a battle isn't even unfair, since all other skills which servers to escape are available for any class.

And please don't tell me that before tideborns were released the game was balanced. I know that before this, it was the same stupid discussion about venomancers and their ability to solo caves, and if venomancers wouldn't exist, I'm sure you all would be complaining on archer's max attacking distance or wizzard's attack power, or maybe any barb's skill, or who knows what!, so don't expect me to believe that one, the game will always be "unbalanced" for some ppl.

EDIT: And 1 more thing, stop trying to tell me how and when I should post in this forum, that's up to me, if you don't like what I post, just ignore it, cuz by telling me how and when to post won't make me do what you want, how you want nor when you want.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Blah blah I still don't get the point blah.

Airyll said it- you dont seem to get the point.

"a player who escapes from a battle, is as defeated as one who die, so I don't care there."yah that's easy to say when you don't die and have the possibility to lose stuff or have gear shatter. Although running is like conceding defeat, it's not like outright getting killed and having a chance to lose gear and items.

"Also shadow escape isn't the only skill you can use to escape from a battle U see you're gonna lose, you can also use holy path genie skill, or any other seemed to that, or even apho remedies which raises your speed a lot for a short period of time"Nice job, you missed the point. We've already covered this one kid. Holy path? I holy path with you. You wanna use apoth to get away? Well I don't think you can do that seeing how you probally used it in our fight anyways, but even granting that you do have apoth, I can still sleep/stun you, and finish the fight.

"And please don't tell me that before tideborns were released the game was balanced. I know that before this, it was the same stupid discussion about venomancers and their ability to solo caves"
Another attempt, and another miss. Not even close to the point of this thread. First of all, this thread is obviously a PvP based complaint, and you have the good judgement to bring up an old OP complaint that involved PvE, way to go.
Now to set you straight- players complaining that the veno being able to solo instances or wtfpwn with nix's, is the exact same as complaining that certain people are OP because they have highly refined gear or 5aps. It's a cash shopped commodity, and as such, there is no hope of the former being changed.
But a skill that you pay no outside money for, that simply comes with the character you play? That's something that PWI doesnt make money on, and for that reason it's different than veno's charging $100 for a herc to solo an instance, because nerfing stealth wouldnt cost PWI a dime (cash shop wise).

DrunkWizard - Lost City

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

because nerfing stealth wouldnt cost PWI a dime (cash shop wise).

but less ppl would bother cash shoping a sin if nerf stealth, thats why it wont be nerfed

Olbaze - Sanctuary

DrunkWizard - Lost City wrote: »

but less ppl would bother cash shoping a sin if nerf stealth, thats why it wont be nerfed

Considering that the current stealth system attracts *******s to play assassins, you'd have to be ready to deal with a massive rage storm from said *******s.

I doubt that any of the heavy cash shoppers actually cash shop a sin to 100 and equip them with yadda dadda just to make people rage at stealth being unfair. That's a bit expensive even for trolling.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Complaint about Flesh Ream on Venomancer pets was at a time when everyone was level 7x-9x, with pdef necklaces like Sky Demon's being very rare and costing 10m+ (ironically half a phoenix at the time) to get.

The best cash shoppers on the server had Immacs or something, there was no cheap way to get Flawless shards like how we get it now. Basically, the server was too young to deal with Flesh Ream. So at the time, yes, Flesh Ream was extremely powerful in PvP. Obviously now, what you have are higher grade pdef ornaments like Cube Neck and Warsong Belt, people are wearing g8 to g11 shards, TW npcs provide purify pots, so no, Flesh Ream isn't as big of a problem.

As of now people have reached endgame, and are still frustrated at how Force Stealth allows assassins to run from fights when they feel that they should have a chance to fight back.

Assassins CAN, in fact, tank some of the hardest bosses in the game. An archer melee tanked Harpy Wraith, an assassin would have an easier time with Blood Paint and better evasion. You've never seen an assassin tank 3-3, so stop talking out of your ***.

Okonimus - Heavens Tear

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's true that, at high lvls, assassins are hardly defeated by anyone in PK/1 vs 1 battle. But don't the class name "assassin" tells you anything?. Assassins are suposd to be able to kill others in a more effective way than other classes, like barbs are suposed to tank better than anyone, wizzards able to 1 hit, etc... That's the class identity, it just wouldn't be logic that an assassin has the same possibilities to kill his target as any other non-assassin class do, so stop complaining there.

No one asks developers to nerf barbarian's HP so that they has the same possibility to tank as other classes, for example. That doesn't mean that assassins are the best class in game, we're good at 1 vs 1 combat only, but it becomes a lot hard when we're in a territory war, we die easily there where probably barbs, archers and any other class would survive better and kill more ppl in less time, and in dungeons too, we're not tankers, that's clear, we couldn't tank the strongest bosses in game, only barbs would be able to do so, but I don't see any assassin asking devs for more HP or merf HP for barbs, it's just barb's mastery!.

I don't know if you ppl get me right, the fact that assassins can kill others easily (no matter what skills it takes) is what makes us assassins, otherwise we would be just fists BMs, so no need of a different name nor class. So stop complaining about assassin's skills, we're assassins for a reason, just like other classes are barbs,archers, BMs, venos, etc. for a reason too.

that's true

DrunkWizard - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Considering that the current stealth system attracts *******s to play assassins, you'd have to be ready to deal with a massive rage storm from said *******s.

I doubt that any of the heavy cash shoppers actually cash shop a sin to 100 and equip them with yadda dadda just to make people rage at stealth being unfair. That's a bit expensive even for trolling.

k go ask them then.

wut u think all the nv sets +10 sins does? stealth kill force stealth come back kill afk while cooldown n repeat til win.

add being unable to target + having at least 10k hp unbuffed , yes thats a good reason to be a heavy cash shoped sin

Boojangles - Lost City

well u cant call a class OP if u assume that said class has way better gear than the target. if ur going to bring in +12 nivana and 10k unbuffed hp u have to consider the target of equall gear. i mean a lvl 105 sin vrs a lvl 30 cleric does not = sin being op.

with that said a Barb with +12 weps and the shards that would give a sin 10k hp no buff = arma one shot to all. if sins are op i guess barbs are too.

ive seen sins get beat up by archers, venos, Barbs, Bms, psys, clerics, wizards who knew what they were doing. I have a sin so im not going to tell anyone what exactly it is that will kill them, but all ill say is instead or raging take the time to think on the matter. if YOU cant find the answer then i guess that sucks

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver

Pretty sure people are complaining that sins can run from fights they pick with out thinking, with absurd ease (they have more methods of escaping than any class), not their DPS, DPH, Stun locking, ability to solo/tank most bosses my end game etc. Also, you CAN'T one shot a sin, even a 105 Demon Barb with +12 refines and Pure Vit stones critting on a ToP'd arma has a little(no) chance of killing a level 40 sin with that skill (Deaden Nerves, also Focused mind and it's random chance to negate all damage).

So, you can't one shot them, they have a decent chance of Evading anything, and they have the most fool proof method of escape. So, whats wrong with making Shadow escape a bit weaker in PvP?

Badburton - Lost City

DrunkWizard - Lost City wrote: »

but less ppl would bother cash shoping a sin if nerf stealth, thats why it wont be nerfed

Most assasins can kill people about 20 more levels above themselves with ease. And most of them just refine their items to +3 not even using or bothering to use the Cash Shop at all.

All they need is +3 daggers and armor, and they're good to go with their stun combo.

DrunkWizard - Lost City

i dont think so, 20 levels more = 20% less dmg + they can see you while stealthing , even tho jones blessing or anniv one makes up for that.

Badburton - Lost City

DrunkWizard - Lost City wrote: »

i dont think so, 20 levels more = 20% less dmg + they can see you while stealthing , even tho jones blessing or anniv one makes up for that.

Assasin moves to kill players 20 levels above them.

If below level 89:

Stealth, deadend nerves, wolf emblem, focused mind(chance to evade and get a damage of 1) , the increase crit double damage, double spark, do chi move inner harmony, and dagger or stun the target for like 7 seconds daggering them over and over and then brambleraging killing your target very fast and easy.

If above level 89.

Demon spark, and do the same as above with occult ice. Takes down even barbarians with good gear. b:surrender

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Badburton - Lost City wrote: »

Most assasins can kill people about 20 more levels above themselves with ease. And most of them just refine their items to +3 not even using or bothering to use the Cash Shop at all.

All they need is +3 daggers and armor, and they're good to go with their stun combo.

exactly what I was thinking. Sins can do waaay better than just about any other class without refining their gear (and credit card) to hell

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Looks like somebody failed at reading once again! You missed every single point I had to make and even tried to make an argument I had already shot down. Go back to school and learn to comprehend what you read, please, because seeing you miss the point over and over and over again is terribly sad.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I do understand what you're discussing here, but what I'm saying is that the shadow escape skill is made to give an assassin a "second chance" to kill his oponent, if he fails the 1st try, because that's what assassins are suposed to do, to win most of 1 vs 1 battles, I repeat, no matter what skills it takes. Now the shadow escape skill doesn't grant a successful assassination anyway, cuz many assassins have been defeated even so, it just makes it a lot hard, but yah, that's the only thing in which assassins are hardly defeated, in 1 vs 1 battles, not in another situations.

Meet:

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The Assassins are very much game breaking in terms of PvP balance. Shadow Escape is designed to run from an enemy or potential group of enemies and then come back before they can prepare - in theory. However, what we are arguing right now is how easy this is to completely abuse.

Assassins are made to kill faster in 1v1 then any other class, they are not designed to run up, attack somebody they stand no chance of winning against and then force stealth to make the entire fight null and void. Being able to run away and come back to fight is an advantage, and an annoying one, but being able to escape practically any fight with no repercussions and a near 0% chance of dying because your enemy can no longer see and attack you? That is unfair, and it's not even an advantage.

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Talking about the chance to escape and stop trying to kill a target which is impossible to kill, that wasn't the topic in this thread, but if you want my opinion, a player who escapes from a battle, is as defeated as one who die, so I don't care there. Also shadow escape isn't the only skill you can use to escape from a battle U see you're gonna lose, you can also use holy path genie skill, or any other seemed to that, or even apho remedies which raises your speed a lot for a short period of time, so that possibility assassins have to escape from a battle isn't even unfair, since all other skills which servers to escape are available for any class.

Meet:

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Every class has the ability to escape, but not to half the same extent. If an archer or a wizard picks a fight with somebody they clearly aren't going to win against, they have their genie skills/stun immune/shrink distance at the ready. But they are still limited. They are still limited in terms of escape and the person they attacked can still potentially target and hit them before they can get to safety. As such, this is the same for all classes except Sins. This is where Shadow Escape isn't necessarily OP, more then downright ****ing annoying.

And:

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No other class in this game can attack somebody they have no chance of winning against, and then magically disappear so they have a 0% chance of dying.

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And please don't tell me that before tideborns were released the game was balanced. I know that before this, it was the same stupid discussion about venomancers and their ability to solo caves, and if venomancers wouldn't exist, I'm sure you all would be complaining on archer's max attacking distance or wizzard's attack power, or maybe any barb's skill, or who knows what!, so don't expect me to believe that one, the game will always be "unbalanced" for some ppl.

Venomancers paid for their Herc through the cash shop, so of course they can solo cave. That is cash shopper advantage and should be expected. Trying to argue about not only PvE when the discussion is about PvP, but about the fact a cash shopper gets an advantage because they paid money, is downright stupid and proves you're an idiot.

Wizards have high DPH naturally. That isn't one skill, that's a class bonus. They're also extremely squishy, especially if they don't have their shields up, which means while they can nuke you and kill you, you can poke them and they fall over. Archers range is, again, another class bonus, and it can be totally negated though stuns and freeze so you can keep them in one place. Wizards have range too, by the way. As do venos. And clerics. Range is a bonus not only archers have and you're once again being an idiot to try and pretend that a class bonus is OP.

Range on archers is negated by getting close to them until their attack is halved (save for metal skills.)
DPH on wizards is negated by the fact that you can poke some of them and they will die.

Shadow Escape being abused on an Assassin to pick a fight they will never win and have the ability to run away from that fight completely unpunished for their idiocy is not a class bonus. It is a skill being completely abused for all the wrong reasons, and as such it is something no other class can do. That's right, you moron, no other class can turn invisible and take their chance of dying right down to 0%. Stop trying to argue they can.

I'm starting to think you're missing the point on purpose.