double aggression on Flesh Ream /barb skills

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Ever do a 2 man 3-3 or Nirvana? It is challenging. A lot more challenging than doing it with a full squad. b:bye

have barbs at 59 soloed otifis before? what about bms at 59? cause i'd kill him for mold. and dps should be nerfed imho. stream strike' devour and untamed wraith should be buffed. aggro wise most importantly

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

"Barbs cant keep aggro against int users and have become useless."
You mean this claim? I suggest you reading thru the posts in this thread. There are accounts of barbs role being overtaken by other classes.

Vit barbs are still useful actually, but only for squads that cannot tank the instance. For example, TT3-3 with mostly mid 90s.

Also why do you do TTs with Ajay and not with some other barbs if they are still useful?

"Here's how the game was designed...

Cleric = heal.
DD= deal as much damage as possible.
Barb= hold aggro and tank."

Here is how the design is broken

cleric = replaced by sin's blood paint
DD = deal as much damage as possible with perma sparks and 5 attacks per sec, tanking at the same time
barb = squad buffer

Its a wonderful 3 in 1. Even though in most cases, clerics are still needed, things are moving towards that trend now for people in their end game.

Maybe for you as I am always needed. People still much rather take a cleric instead of ticking their charms even with BP. Exactly the game design did break.. that is no reason not to increase hate on barbs skills. It's a way of fixing a bit of it.

As for the Ajay comment.. LOL I take barbs on some runs as charity. Thats my point. Barbs can't hold aggro.. the hate on their skills need increased in order to be able to tank. they should not have to restat to use fists. You are the one arguing the opposite.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Maybe for you as I am always needed. People still much rather take a cleric instead of ticking their charms even with BP. Exactly the game design did break.. that is no reason not to increase hate on barbs skills. It's a way of fixing a bit of it.

As for the Ajay comment.. LOL I take barbs on some runs as charity. Thats my point. Barbs can't hold aggro.. the hate on their skills need increased in order to be able to tank. they should not have to restat to use fists. You are the one arguing the opposite.

Well, I suppose if everyone is charitable like you then there would be no problem at all.

How sure are you that if barbs aggro is increased, more squads will take barbs in to tank? Especially when they have DDs who have tanked before in the squad.

And barbs can still tank at the moment. Take the advice from tons of people from this thread, either DDs control their damage output, or get lower DDs for that squad.

TigerLily - Lost City

Its not like you need a 5 aps perma sparked BM/Sin to take aggro over a barb b:surrender

Barbs, spamming flesh ream, cant even hold agro against a +10 CV weapon which is a pretty average equip/refine. The +30 blessing makes it even harder.

In HH my Nirvana bow +10 steals aggro after a few minutes, unless the barb is using claws. Triple sparking, using red bubble, demon quick shoot when axe barb is tanking, thats just auto aggro for any archer with a highly refined weapon. Even when i only had a Heaven Shatter +10 i got aggro pretty fast.

Which is why a fist user tanking is preferred. Having to take DD-breaks all the time and not being able to spark really slows a run down. Telling people to "controll damage" at 100+ when youre trying to farm endgame instances as effective and fast as possible is just plain stupid lol.

Aggression on barbs skills really needs a huge boost, kinda sad how only usage for axe barbs in pve is buffing or tanking for lowbies ;(

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Its not like you need a 5 aps perma sparked BM/Sin to take aggro over a barb b:surrender

Barbs, spamming flesh ream, cant even hold agro against a +10 CV weapon which is a pretty average equip/refine. The +30 blessing makes it even harder.

In HH my Nirvana bow +10 steals aggro after a few minutes, unless the barb is using claws. Triple sparking, using red bubble, demon quick shoot when axe barb is tanking, thats just auto aggro for any archer with a highly refined weapon. Even when i only had a Heaven Shatter +10 i got aggro pretty fast.

Which is why a fist user tanking is preferred. Having to take DD-breaks all the time and not being able to spark really slows a run down. Telling people to "controll damage" at 100+ when youre trying to farm endgame instances as effective and fast as possible is just plain stupid lol.

Aggression on barbs skills really needs a huge boost, kinda sad how only usage for axe barbs in pve is buffing or tanking for lowbies ;(

Assuming you get what you want, ie barbs hold aggro regardless of who are the DDs, would you still get a barb in your squad to tank, or would you go with your regular squad without a barb if you are looking to maximise profit?

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=795612
here for all you tank barbs believer, go and vote in that thread.(think pve)
to make it relevant to this topic, you can vote for 1. if tank barbs have increased aggro, 2. if aggro is the same, 3. fist barb, 4. i can tank it myself, dont need any barb

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

You're assuming all 5 APS users want to tank or are able to tank. What if the interval user can't tank a certain boss, should he pull back his attacks so the barb can maintain argo? I suppose a barb can go for end game pve with claws and be a viable tank but what then are our skills for?

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You might have the refine part, but you do not have the stacked intervals. So technically, my statement still holds true.

If I were to wear the same interval items as a BM (even have - however many intervals on their lunar claws/tt100 fists on my axes), I still would not get argo because dual axes will never get to 5 APS demon sparked. So no your statement is false.

Longknife - Harshlands

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You'd also have to have some serious issues if you don't recognise it's not necessarily the skills themselves that are the only problem, but the fact that newer players have no idea how to control their damage output, especially high level new players who have grown up in the world where +12 Lunar with as much crit/channel as you can get is the norm.

If you really want to cull this problem you need to

1) Increase the threat barb's can dish out onto monsters because, as it stands, they cannot compete with all the high level CS gear any more

2) Recognise that noob DDs are as much as a problem as low-aggro skills are because they don't even try to curb their damage in the first place.

I disagree with you simply on the grounds that it would seem annoying if, say, a party is capable of dealing 350k damage per 10 seconds, but they have to reduce it to 200k just for the sake of the barb. It's simply a pain in the **** if you're capable of doing so much damage, but the game won't let you. It's like buying a Ferrari, but then the game keeps sticking you behind an Oldsmobile on a one lane road. You end up asking yourself "well f

Aubree - Dreamweaver

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're assuming all 5 APS users want to tank or are able to tank. What if the interval user can't tank a certain boss, should he pull back his attacks so the barb can maintain argo? I suppose a barb can go for end game pve with claws and be a viable tank but what then are our skills for?

+10

To Lyfo:

Yes I would still take the barb to tank. We would all be performing an imprtant role in squad then, wouldn't we? As for charity, no one likes to feel like dead weight.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Ever do a 2 man 3-3 or Nirvana? It is challenging. A lot more challenging than doing it with a full squad. b:bye

I was referring to the post talking about how they prefed barbs because apparently it's more challenging... because healing a 7k tank is acording to their logic less challenging than a 20k hp one.
& yes I have lol

Barbs, spamming flesh ream, cant even hold agro against a +10 CV weapon which is a pretty average equip/refine. The +30 blessing makes it even harder.

I take agro fisting bosses with my self made +4 oht fists non sparking. Not even talking about auto-atking with my normal weap... Most bhs I run around doing summersaults around the boss or shoot venomous arrows... Go DD power...

Bartack - Heavens Tear

If they just let all barb skills work with all melee weapons, we would be back as preferred tanks. It would also open up a whole new world for barbs stat and gear wise to play around with, without making us OP in the process. The only truly unfair advantage i see with it would be replacing Axe/Hammer mastery with a generic Weapon Mastery skill, thereby causing great QQ'ing amongst BM's who have to pay for all of their different weapon mastery's. 5aps claw demon in tiger? 4aps claw sage w damage reduction? Now that would be tanking b:dirty

EDIT: oops got carried away thinking of how pimp I would look slamming w 2 swords I forgot to impart my wisdom :P

Anyway, as others have said, It really makes no difference if you make barb skills generate more aggro or not, If a DD can tank, use the DD. Now, end game barbs already make great tanks...when restated for claws for DD aggro. However, if you lift the axe/hammer restriction on our skills, you get a dd tank that's MEANT to be a tank!

Before the BM's go crying 'but that wouldn't be fair' at me, think of the only skills one really uses with high speed weapons. The ones that give you an effect you might need at the moment. That's it. Damage adding skills are wasted on them, and in tiger, most barb skill effects are for survival. BM's still get all the fun stuns, and most barb humanoid skills would be pointless to use.

And as for barbs that don't want to use fist, think of all the other weapons out there would be fun to try. Think of all the stat allocation possibilities! Honestly I believe it would only add variety to a very constrained character. If anyone sees a way this would make barbs OP, let me know! (I'm too tired and lazy to think for myself, I know)

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

maybe..


or ijs make pve 100+ harder

so just barbs and few good bms could tank it


now any hyper nob bm can tank 3-3 with ~10k hp if he have non-hyper nob cler


he can leave toon on aut-attack and just eventually follow boss if he moves


b:beatup

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're assuming all 5 APS users want to tank or are able to tank. What if the interval user can't tank a certain boss, should he pull back his attacks so the barb can maintain argo? I suppose a barb can go for end game pve with claws and be a viable tank but what then are our skills for?


If I were to wear the same interval items as a BM (even have - however many intervals on their lunar claws/tt100 fists on my axes), I still would not get argo because dual axes will never get to 5 APS demon sparked. So no your statement is false.

1. There are only a few bosses PvE wise that cant be tanked by a well-geared 5aps DD. Ask Aubree, an archer tanked harpy in our server the supposed mother of all bosses.

2.You are right in the case that the DD cannot take teh damage, he has to hold back and let a barb get the aggro. But come on, be realistic, the only 2 instances being massively farmed are nirvana and TT. Maybe some world boss and lunar, but demand for those are lower. And in both nirvana and TT, a well-geared 5 aps can tank as well as a barb, might be more risky in 3-3, still doable nonetheless.

3. Your skills are to get you to end game. The thing is, it applies to the other classes as well. Archers with fist do more damage than shooting arrows. BMs do more damage sparking than using other skills(maybe except HF in a squad with other DDs). And they are not complaining because it is easy to swap to axe and use useful skills.

4. Im refering to your attack speed when I am talking about your intervals. Since damage per sec= attack per second * damage per hit, lacking either attack per second or damage per hit will result in you dealing less damage.

@Aubree, Can you guarantee me a spot in your nirvana/tt runs if the aggro gets increased, I'll make a barb jsut to farm stuff with you

paralleogram

get rid of the stupid jones blessings.

problem solved.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

paralleogram wrote: »

get rid of the stupid jones blessings.

problem solved.

wrong ... jones blessing gives everyone 30% more attack.

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1. There are only a few bosses PvE wise that cant be tanked by a well-geared 5aps DD. Ask Aubree, an archer tanked harpy in our server the supposed mother of all bosses.
Look at his gear. Is he the average archer on your server? I still wished a similarly equipped axe barb could maintain argo from him.

2.You are right in the case that the DD cannot take teh damage, he has to hold back and let a barb get the aggro. But come on, be realistic, the only 2 instances being massively farmed are nirvana and TT. Maybe some world boss and lunar, but demand for those are lower. And in both nirvana and TT, a well-geared 5 aps can tank as well as a barb, might be more risky in 3-3, still doable nonetheless.
Of course they can tank if he is well geared but I'm talking about argo. A barb who is primarily designed for argo holding with far superior equipments can't hold argo vs. a moderately geared bm. Do you see what's wrong here?

3. Your skills are to get you to end game. The thing is, it applies to the other classes as well. Archers with fist do more damage than shooting arrows. BMs do more damage sparking than using other skills(maybe except HF in a squad with other DDs). And they are not complaining because it is easy to swap to axe and use useful skills.
Archers have nothing to lose by going fist/claw since most of them are pure dex anyway and interval is helpful for both fists and bows. BMs have fist/claw skill tree. The average barb usually do not have that much dex as a lot of them are tank builds. They sacrifice HP when they want to go fist/claw.

4. Im refering to your attack speed when I am talking about your intervals. Since damage per sec= attack per second * damage per hit, lacking either attack per second or damage per hit will result in you dealing less damage.
So you're just saying go fist because even with stacked out interval and +12 axe, you will not be able to maintain argo since axes cannot reach the amount of APS that claws and fists can. You should have just said that instead of saying that barbs can hold agro if he has stacked interval and high refines.
@Aubree, Can you guarantee me a spot in your nirvana/tt runs if the aggro gets increased, I'll make a barb jsut to farm stuff with you

Sleeping time.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

So you're just saying go fist because even with stacked out interval and +12 axe, you will not be able to maintain argo since axes cannot reach the amount of APS that claws and fists can. You should have just said that instead of saying that barbs can hold agro if he has stacked interval and high refines.

The reality is, there is not other weapon that scales as well as interval fist/daggers. I thought I was very clear with where I stand in this. Read through this thread, I think I'm sick of saying this by now, but the only way a barb can stay relevant in PvE is by restating to fists. (Unless you wana do farming instances with lowbies forever, thats your choice or accepting "charity" from people like Aubree)

Saying that archers have nothing to lose is still kinda wrong. Sacrificing crit rate on bow is never a good trade off if he is still using bow to pk and stuff. Saying that they don't lose as much as a barb would be a better way to say it.

Of course they can tank if he is well geared but I'm talking about argo. A barb who is primarily designed for argo holding with far superior equipments can't hold argo vs. a moderately geared bm. Do you see what's wrong here?

If you improve aggro on flesh ream, a mediocre geared barb can hold aggro vs. a well geared DD. Do you see what's wrong here?

Look at his gear. Is he the average archer on your server? I still wished a similarly equipped axe barb could maintain argo from him.

But why? Why do you want to maintain aggro from him? I bet if he is farming something with profit in mind, a barb holdng aggro there would be a deadweight(besides the buff). The spot in squad would be better given to another DD, so that they can kill the boss faster.

Balticus - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The reality is, there is not other weapon that scales as well as interval fist/daggers. I thought I was very clear with where I stand in this. Read through this thread, I think I'm sick of saying this by now, but the only way a barb can stay relevant in PvE is by restating to fists. (Unless you wana do farming instances with lowbies forever, thats your choice or accepting "charity" from people like Aubree)

Saying that archers have nothing to lose is still kinda wrong. Sacrificing crit rate on bow is never a good trade off if he is still using bow to pk and stuff. Saying that they don't lose as much as a barb would be a better way to say it.


If you improve aggro on flesh ream, a mediocre geared barb can hold aggro vs. a well geared DD. Do you see what's wrong here?


But why? Why do you want to maintain aggro from him? I bet if he is farming something with profit in mind, a barb holdng aggro there would be a deadweight(besides the buff). The spot in squad would be better given to another DD, so that they can kill the boss faster.

why dont you just delete the barb class if we're so useless? >.> why would a DD be tank thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard,everyone should stop saying nonsense and say yes to the idea,this kind of talk makes me feel like you hate barbs and want them out and make DD's tankers,just say yes to the increase agro idea


P.S everyone bashing barbs here about being dead weight should be ashamed,we're the fastest in the group,hardest to kill,and the least squishy,wow I really am dead weight >.>
just increase the agro in our skills and everyone can be trigger happy while the barb gets a soda,just say yes to the idea and stop saying a DD should tank,when his name says it DD(damage dealer).

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Balticus - Lost City wrote: »

why dont you just delete the barb class if we're so useless? >.> why would a DD be tank thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard,everyone should stop saying nonsense and say yes to the idea,this kind of talk makes me feel like you hate barbs and want them out and make DD's tankers,just say yes to the increase agro idea


P.S everyone bashing barbs here about being dead weight should be ashamed,we're the fastest in the group,hardest to kill,and the least squishy,wow I really am dead weight >.>
just increase the agro in our skills and everyone can be trigger happy while the barb gets a soda,just say yes to the idea and stop saying a DD should tank,when his name says it DD(damage dealer).

Hold on just one second.

Now I am not saying barbs are useless but I will happily argue the idea that having a DD tank is stupid. There are plenty of instances where a DD tank is faster and easier on the squad and in these situations you shouldn't sit around and complain that it's stupid, because it's clearly working.

DDs can be terrible for stealing aggro, but shall I tell you one huge issue I have with barbarians? Some of you get so pig-headed about the idea that you are the only tanks in this game that you will constantly try and take aggro back from a DD who's doing a perfect job of tanking, making things purposefully harder on the cleric when there is no need.

You need to get out of your head that barbarians are the one and only tank in this game. They are designed to tank, yes. They are the main form of tank, yes. They need to be able to build more aggro and threat at end-game somehow, yes. You are not and never were the only tanks.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Barbs are still needed in mid to high level tanking like squads with venos, wizards, psychics, clerics, non-interval archer, non-interval fist bm, and non interval sins. intervals starts to come in the bigger picture at level 95+, so at your lvl 90, you might not have much experience yet. That and the limited number of 5aps DD who can tank.

edit : http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=757772&page=3
here is a nice thread on what 90+ sins can tank.

Bartack - Heavens Tear

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hold on just one second.

Now I am not saying barbs are useless but I will happily argue the idea that having a DD tank is stupid. There are plenty of instances where a DD tank is faster and easier on the squad and in these situations you shouldn't sit around and complain that it's stupid, because it's clearly working.

DDs can be terrible for stealing aggro, but shall I tell you one huge issue I have with barbarians? Some of you get so pig-headed about the idea that you are the only tanks in this game that you will constantly try and take aggro back from a DD who's doing a perfect job of tanking, making things purposefully harder on the cleric when there is no need.

You need to get out of your head that barbarians are the one and only tank in this game. They are designed to tank, yes. They are the main form of tank, yes. They need to be able to build more aggro and threat at end-game somehow, yes. You are not and never were the only tanks.

It is a bit frustrating that barbs, being pigeon-holed as tanks, don't have an end-game contribution to aspire to any more. If many of us seem to think we should always be tanking, well it might be because that's what we were supposed to do. We don't get the big DD numbers to fight over or the 'wow I can solo-heal ____' of clerics. I know things have changed for all the other classes this past year when the devs sold their souls-er I mean uber gears in cs, but what to do w barbs?

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It is a bit frustrating that barbs, being pigeon-holed as tanks, don't have an end-game contribution to aspire to any more. If many of us seem to think we should always be tanking, well it might be because that's what we were supposed to do. We don't get the big DD numbers to fight over or the 'wow I can solo-heal ____' of clerics. I know things have changed for all the other classes this past year when the devs sold their souls-er I mean uber gears in cs, but what to do w barbs?

You're only pigeon-holed as a tank if you come into the game thinking you are the ultimate and only tank and build yourself to be that, as such. There are plenty of barbarians out there who came into this game saying "DD barb go" and hey, it worked enough for them and they had fun. In some ways, the idea that the barbarian is the one and only tank in this game was never ever true and this is part of the reason you're all having such a problem now.

I've agreed to the fact level 11 skills such as flesh ream should generate far more threat and aggression than they do. Barbarians should not have to change their entire build and go fist/claw in order to be able to tank, but the fact remains that in the current situation you can either change your build (or reroll) to adapt to the situation, or merely accept the fact that you are potentially cata-pullers for the rest of your barbarian life until a point where the game is changed.

What I was saying however was that a DD tank is not a stupid idea. It can go a lot smoother and a lot faster if a capable DD is tanking and I'm not about to sit around and argue that because I'd be very blatantly wrong. Any class has the ability to tank in this game; FB59 is an entire dungeon practically devoted to LA and AA tanks for example. There is no 'set' tank for anything in this game, aside from perhaps BH69 where it's far safer to have a barbarian tank then any other class, etc. etc.

And in fact if you want the honest facts, there was never a sole tanking class in this game. This gear has always been coded into the game, there was always going to be a time that eventually DDs would be able to stack insane amounts of -chan or -interval and, with this, always the possibility that eventually the barbarian would lose their ability to hold aggro against the DDs. Am I saying this is fine? Not necessarily. Am I saying you will have to adapt until a potential change/solution comes along? Most definitely.

Asperitas - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I thought I was very clear with where I stand in this. Read through this thread, I think I'm sick of saying this by now, but the only way a barb can stay relevant in PvE is by restating to fists. (Unless you wana do farming instances with lowbies forever, thats your choice or accepting "charity" from people like Aubree)

I don't understand how this is equity. You're saying things are okay because all the barbs can just restat to fist and claws and then continue doing what they were doing before.

This is similar to the argument you gave for the Jones Blessing - Jones Blessing gives everyone an equal advantage because everyone can just reroll as a ranged class and kill each other.

Bandwagoning onto whatever's OP at the time isn't equity. That's the result of something gone out of whack.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

I am saying this ok because this is how the game works. Should we ask for changes to channel mechanism because interval is broken?

Besides how many of you really believes that if you vote here, some developer will know this and try to think of an idea to fix it?

Asperitas - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am saying this ok because this is how the game works. Should we ask for changes to channel mechanism because interval is broken?

Besides how many of you really believes that if you vote here, some developer will know this and try to think of an idea to fix it?

So because this is what the game offers you, you're not going to question the mechanics behind it? You're not going to question the balance of it? Just because this is the way it works doesn't mean this is the way it should work.

And to answer your question.

How many people actually thought they'd bring back the tournament?

0. Me included.

What happened recently? They brought back the tournament.

You keep thinking "nothing's gonna happen so there's no point trying". Of course nothing happened, you didn't do anything.

Nobody stands to lose anything if they raise a voice, you only stand to gain.

Longknife - Harshlands

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're only pigeon-holed as a tank if you come into the game thinking you are the ultimate and only tank and build yourself to be that, as such. There are plenty of barbarians out there who came into this game saying "DD barb go" and hey, it worked enough for them and they had fun. In some ways, the idea that the barbarian is the one and only tank in this game was never ever true and this is part of the reason you're all having such a problem now.

I've agreed to the fact level 11 skills such as flesh ream should generate far more threat and aggression than they do. Barbarians should not have to change their entire build and go fist/claw in order to be able to tank, but the fact remains that in the current situation you can either change your build (or reroll) to adapt to the situation, or merely accept the fact that you are potentially cata-pullers for the rest of your barbarian life until a point where the game is changed.

What I was saying however was that a DD tank is not a stupid idea. It can go a lot smoother and a lot faster if a capable DD is tanking and I'm not about to sit around and argue that because I'd be very blatantly wrong. Any class has the ability to tank in this game; FB59 is an entire dungeon practically devoted to LA and AA tanks for example. There is no 'set' tank for anything in this game, aside from perhaps BH69 where it's far safer to have a barbarian tank then any other class, etc. etc.

And in fact if you want the honest facts, there was never a sole tanking class in this game. This gear has always been coded into the game, there was always going to be a time that eventually DDs would be able to stack insane amounts of -chan or -interval and, with this, always the possibility that eventually the barbarian would lose their ability to hold aggro against the DDs. Am I saying this is fine? Not necessarily. Am I saying you will have to adapt until a potential change/solution comes along? Most definitely.

Girl wtf is wrong with you?

Have you ever stolen aggro? Generally, the DD that's pulling aggro is gonna be the DD LEAST suited for tanking, because they have the most points in their damage attributes. I'm controlling my damage for every boss I ever fight. Barbs ARE the only good tanks, if you ask me. Why? Cause they're the only ones that can hold aggro against me. If I steal aggro from a BM, that's that. I'll have aggro for at least 30 seconds, during which I've gotta figure out how to survive. I also have to stop attacking for a good minute. If a herc tanks, same thing. Barbs are the only ones who can QUICKLY grab aggro, and thus the only tank I'd prefer to stand behind. Not to say I'm unwilling to go into battle with any other tank. It's really more, if a barb is tanking, then I can let loose and attack as much as I want, only pausing every so often. I can deal 95% of my potential damage. If anything else is tanking, I gotta sit back. With anything else, I can only deal like 65% of my potential damage.



Now look, I'm all for equal opportunity, but I'm also for reality checks. On the opposite side of barbs, I'd say Psys have the highest DPS for the majority of the game. Only after 9x when BMs and Sins start getting negative interval gear are we outdone. Despite this, I dunno how many times I've been in a barbless party where some other class insisted their DPS was higher than mine and told me to let loose with my damage, only to have me steal aggro in under five seconds. I've partied with a sin once who, when I told him I wanted a barb cause otherwise I'd steal aggro, he laughed at me with some condescending tone, asking "Pffft, have you EVER partied with a sin before? You have no idea what our damage output is." Sorry **** couldn't hold aggro worth ****, and I tanked literally every mob on the way to the boss, AND the first boss. We had to find a tank afterwards. I also dunno how many times a person has insisted on training next to me instead of away from me, and then when they realize I'm killing four mobs to their one, they get all butthurt and attack me. FFS, I'm not being arrogant or pigheaded about it, I'm just stating the facts. The fact is I generally have higher damage output than other classes, and everytime someone's in denial about this, it usually comes out and hurts ME. They get butthurt and PK me or I end up pulling aggro or whatever. I'm sure it can sometimes be the same for barbs when others insist on tanking.
So yeah, it's fine if a barb is missing and a BM offers to take over, but for the love of god, don't go off and try to be the hero when it's obvious another class can tank better than you. No other class can pull aggro so quickly and no other class has as much combined defense as a barb. So yeah, they are undoubtedly the best tanks and having one allows for the party as a whole to deal more damage. A Blademaster can tank, sure, but for that, others are holding back their damage. Even if it's a high -interval BM, who probably can hold aggro, all it takes is a death or someone managing to pull aggro and that aggro will be hard to get back. Take it from me, because unless we're talking about a BM or Sin with high (keyword high) -interval gear in the party, I'M the front line should that barb die or not be in the squad, and I'm sure as hell not risking it by dealing full damage. Dunno how pulling aggro is calculated exactly, but apparently high DPH and DPS outdoes higher DPS (I assume they're higher, can't imagine they're not) occassionally, making it somewhat risky for me to let loose with a sin or BM.

Just take it from me when I'm sure that many front line DD'ers would feel better if barbs were able to hold their tanking capabilities all the way up to 100.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

So because this is what the game offers you, you're not going to question the mechanics behind it? You're not going to question the balance of it? Just because this is the way it works doesn't mean this is the way it should work.

And to answer your question.

How many people actually thought they'd bring back the tournament?

0. Me included.

What happened recently? They brought back the tournament.

You keep thinking "nothing's gonna happen so there's no point trying". Of course nothing happened, you didn't do anything.

Nobody stands to lose anything if they raise a voice, you only stand to gain.

The tournament was brought back on the other version, jsut like how jungle ruins will be brought back. It has nothing to do with us(forums) at all despite theres a few posts every once in a while to bring it back.

Some of the issues were brought to the GM's attention like the DQ price reduction. Until now, we did not get any response as to how they will compensate this version. Aggro mechanics is way, way above price of DQ. If they wanted to have a balanced game, they shouldnt have let too many interval gears into the game at all.

And the reason why I dont support this idea of increasing aggro is I believe there is a bigger problem out there. Even though increasing aggro might be a good direction to making everything balanced again, assuming that everything will be ok if you increase aggro is kinda short-sighted and does not benefit barbs that much.

SaintDominic - Sanctuary

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The tournament was brought back on the other version, jsut like how jungle ruins will be brought back. It has nothing to do with us(forums) at all despite theres a few posts every once in a while to bring it back.

Some of the issues were brought to the GM's attention like the DQ price reduction. Until now, we did not get any response as to how they will compensate this version. Aggro mechanics is way, way above price of DQ. If they wanted to have a balanced game, they shouldnt have let too many interval gears into the game at all.

And the reason why I dont support this idea of increasing aggro is I believe there is a bigger problem out there. Even though increasing aggro might be a good direction to making everything balanced again, assuming that everything will be ok if you increase aggro is kinda short-sighted and does not benefit barbs that much.

And what is the biggest problem out there besides how unbalanced this game is?

Asperitas - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The tournament was brought back on the other version, jsut like how jungle ruins will be brought back. It has nothing to do with us(forums) at all despite theres a few posts every once in a while to bring it back.

Some of the issues were brought to the GM's attention like the DQ price reduction. Until now, we did not get any response as to how they will compensate this version. Aggro mechanics is way, way above price of DQ. If they wanted to have a balanced game, they shouldnt have let too many interval gears into the game at all.

And the reason why I dont support this idea of increasing aggro is I believe there is a bigger problem out there. Even though increasing aggro might be a good direction to making everything balanced again, assuming that everything will be ok if you increase aggro is kinda short-sighted and does not benefit barbs that much.

I'm pretty sure the tournament's been working on the other versions (PW-JP) for a very long time. At least from the videos I've watched, dating many months ago, it was working. If PWI were to bring it back because other servers had it, then it would have been then, not now.

Increasing the amount of aggro on certain skills is not reworking the whole aggro mechanism. I'm no expert in programming, but I'd wager that increasing aggro on certain skills is substantially easier than reworking the whole concept of aggro.

And if I may ask, what is the bigger problem you speak of? The way I see it, if you increase threat levels on barbarian skills, it may not make them become the most desired tank, but it will at least let them be able to tank.

As of now, they can't tank even if they wanted to, save restating to claws.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Generally, the DD that's pulling aggro is gonna be the DD LEAST suited for tanking, because they have the most points in their damage attributes. I'm controlling my damage for every boss I ever fight. Barbs ARE the only good tanks, if you ask me. Why? Cause they're the only ones that can hold aggro against me.

ROFL so a barb is the only tank yet you still holdin out anyway?

If anything else is tanking, I gotta sit back

I find I can actually do good DDing with a decent bm tanking rather than a barb.

have the highest DPS for the majority of the game

Lol wut? You're a psy right?


Never seen a single one pull agro from me whether on melee or when I'm ranging bosses/mobs. Yeah sure you deal much more dmg than me per atk; but good luck catching up in speed.

So yeah, they are undoubtedly the best tanks and having one allows for the party as a whole to deal more damage.

Yes... cause me zzzz half of the boss is damage dealing.... If your avi is correct you are 93. Wait till 95/99 when more -int is available. Then good luck pulling agro from a user with decent -int.

Take it from me, because unless we're talking about a BM or Sin with high (keyword high) -interval gear in the party,

That's exactly what we are tanking about here...
Though I remember my time during 90-99 when I used to tank my bhs, even with very little int available. The only ones I ever seen pull agro from me were VERY well geared sins.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the tournament's been working on the other versions (PW-JP) for a very long time. At least from the videos I've watched, dating many months ago, it was working. If PWI were to bring it back because other servers had it, then it would have been then, not now.

Increasing the amount of aggro on certain skills is not reworking the whole aggro mechanism. I'm no expert in programming, but I'd wager that increasing aggro on certain skills is substantially easier than reworking the whole concept of aggro.

And if I may ask, what is the bigger problem you speak of? The way I see it, if you increase threat levels on barbarian skills, it may not make them become the most desired tank, but it will at least let them be able to tank.

As of now, they can't tank even if they wanted to, save restating to claws.

No they can tank. Find lowbies/mages/venoes of the faction. With a +12 nirvana I am pretty sure you can hold aggro vs them.

You have mentioned the problem. They still won't be the most desirable tank, it might improve them a little. But the problem with the aggro mechanics is how much do you want to improve their aggro?

A mediocre geared barb able to hold aggro vs 5 aps DDs? Where do you want to draw the line? Too high, and you might as well not have aggro in this game. Part of challenge in this game is aggro management, and letting barbs dealing infinite aggro can be considered game breaking as well.

Giving barbs not enough aggro, lets say they can hold aggro vs +5 fist now, t is improved so that they can hold vs +6 fist now, they would still QQ about +7 fists later on.

So you see, its not as easy as letting barbs generate tons of aggro. A lot of other things should be considered as well. You are jsut being selfish if you insist on wanting it.