double aggression on Flesh Ream /barb skills

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ajay and I farmed all our 99 gold @ level 99 duoing 3-2 and 3-3.. just cause you havent seen it doesnt mean it wasnt done.



+1

It's ashame that to keep aggro people expect you to re-roll and use fists... I may be wrong but I dont think you can use barb skills with fists? So then what I propose is that they change all barbs skills to include fist use, if just increasing hate is "too much to ask for"

Yes u cant use barb skills with fists.

Lol... I can just imagine a 5 akt rate barb in tiger... lol...b:sad no plz...


I got a friend fist barb, he's awsome DD. But he doesn't get to use em much outside nirvana; mostly in bhs, tts he just in tiger tanking the "normal" way.

i havent seen any BM who tanks full 3-3 yet though ive seen mass amount of BM who stole aggro and put into graves.

I have seem, & not only a bm but an archer as well (not me QQ) & no they didn't have insane OP gear with lots of hp.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Those 2 BMs must be idiots then. This can be prevented by having a small talk before/during the boss as to who should tank, and the other one maybe let a 10 sec or 1 minute head start on aggro. Which goes back to working as a squad....

A barb getting to control the situation might be nice, but its clearly the 2 bms at fault here. And they deserve the exp loss(cuz if you lose nothing, you gain nothing). Maybe, next time, they would be smarter than to think that they can hold aggro. I mean, 7 deaths? >_>'''

ps. I didnt post this b:avoid

Then the soul reason a BM being in a squad to DD is negated. They are there to DD away, not hold themselves back. This situation could also be avoided by putting on different fists, one going axe, or one not demon sparking, but all of the result in the negation of them being put in the squad to DD. If i was in the squad and another BM was there then that's 2 people that need to hold back DDing. I'd rather have one barb and 2 BMs going all out then 1 BM going all out and 2 holding back.

The main point of the story is if I could at least hold aggro they could just go all out and not be afraid to DD like they are suppose too.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

theres not really a good reason to not make flesh ream etc generate 2-10x more aggro, whatever needed to keep it 100% at sage or demon flesh.

it's so annoying barb cannot keep aggro as its hte whole purpose of it. as it is now flesh ream is close to useless.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then the soul reason a BM being in a squad to DD is negated. They are there to DD away, not hold themselves back. This situation could also be avoided by putting on different fists, one going axe, or one not demon sparking, but all of the result in the negation of them being put in the squad to DD. If i was in the squad and another BM was there then that's 2 people that need to hold back DDing. I'd rather have one barb and 2 BMs going all out then 1 BM going all out and 2 holding back.

The main point of the story is if I could at least hold aggro they could just go all out and not be afraid to DD like they are suppose too.

Yes, that what you achieved with that squad. And having you is not useless, the boss won't go to the cleric if both of them are dead. You have become the off tank in that case, keeping your squad alive when the real tanks are down. Not saying that you are not needed at all, but as far as I can see, you have done your role.

Dont tell me that the aggro switching happened for the first time during that boss because we know that there is more than 1 boss in that TT. Problem is, they didnt not consider possible outcome, and insists that they can tank it and you know that the cleric would be affected the most by an aggro battle. (Especially if both of them are dead, causing the cleric to die as well)

And if they can ping pong aggro like that, that means that they have about the same damage output. You do not need to go as far as one person equipping axe, and the other fists, but instead just getting 1 of them to stop DD for a good 10-30 sec in order to let the other guy keep his aggro.(maybe he dont need to spark during that time)
A smooth run is much better than a run with uncertainties.

You mentioned about full DD output. Tell me, during the deaths, can the BM attack? If its a smooth run, the BM can keep himself (close to/or) perma sparked bringing more damage, rather than lying dead on the ground while the cleric rezzes him.

tl;dr You do not need an aggro boost in that situation, there are other better ways to deal with it.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver wrote: »

theres not really a good reason to not make flesh ream etc generate 2-10x more aggro, whatever needed to keep it 100% at sage or demon flesh.

it's so annoying barb cannot keep aggro as its hte whole purpose of it. as it is now flesh ream is close to useless.

and i would argue that there is no good reason to boost the aggro of flesh ream. it will only be good for those "stretching the 90+" (something telarith said) and barbs ego boost. People would still look for better DD tanks to make their run efficient. (unless its like a faction run or friends run)

I think i have said too much here. .___.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then the soul reason a BM being in a squad to DD is negated. They are there to DD away, not hold themselves back. This situation could also be avoided by putting on different fists, one going axe, or one not demon sparking, but all of the result in the negation of them being put in the squad to DD. If i was in the squad and another BM was there then that's 2 people that need to hold back DDing. I'd rather have one barb and 2 BMs going all out then 1 BM going all out and 2 holding back.

The main point of the story is if I could at least hold aggro they could just go all out and not be afraid to DD like they are suppose too.

In this example, then DDs should never have been placed in a group this whole time, as they've always had to hold back as is; whether BM, archer, or wizzie. Thing is, the BMs can still dish out plenty of damage very well, and they could have still done it without ping ponging aggro.

1st one should have started with Dragon Bane, and demon sparked to attack, second should have done Demon Heavens Flame, Cyclone, and attacks. The first 9 seconds would be increasing their damage output, as the double damage would act like both had around 45% crit rate and were both attack sparked. By the time it falls, enough chi would have been generated for the second to spark up and attack as usual. They could do an ulti every other one, and delay their triple spark by just a bit each time. They would simply be transferring a portion of their damage over to the main tank. No damage is really lost, and aggro is maintained.

Again, those were clueless BMs. In a terribad way.

Balticus - Lost City

I myself would like that idea,since the fish and fist bm's have ridiculously fast interval hit it causes agro tag,anyone who says no to this idea is a noob,we barbs have fewer skill compared to other clases and only 3 agro skills (roar being useless thanks to its low effect unless its sage)while everyone has killing damage and mo-fo damage (human dragons),keeping agro from everyone is easy except for the fish and fist/claw bms with full interval gear and +10 to +12 refine,come on the barb class has been neglected and never looked at throw us a bone and give us increased agro 100% increased agro on skills wouldn't be bad,why the hell would anyone else want agro except us? unless they're morons who want to take our jobs instead of playing their class like they're intended b:chuckle, if we barbs get this done we would have time to breathe and would be able to hold it for a little while getting a drink or going for a quick sweet release


thank yo all you've been wonderfulb:thanks

P.S dont you dare say our flesh ream has full power and all that when you have skills that can oneshot most peopleb:angry

Asperitas - Lost City

Balticus - Lost City wrote: »

P.S dont you dare say our flesh ream has full power and all that when you have skills that can oneshot most peopleb:angry

Armageddon oneshots a lot of people, and has a chance to zerk at that.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And if they can ping pong aggro like that, that means that they have about the same damage output. You do not need to go as far as one person equipping axe, and the other fists, but instead just getting 1 of them to stop DD for a good 10-30 sec in order to let the other guy keep his aggro.(maybe he dont need to spark during that time)

You don't even need to stop. 2 fist/claw BMs with absolutely identical gear and stats don't need to hold back... there is no aggro switching unless one or both of them are just idiots. One person tanks, the other is a dragon ***** (female dog)... no need for one to stop attacking.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

You don't even need to stop. 2 fist/claw BMs with absolutely identical gear and stats don't need to hold back... there is no aggro switching unless one or both of them are just idiots. One person tanks, the other is a dragon ***** (female dog)... no need for one to stop attacking.

Yea your way is better, but look here I am no BM and yet i can understand that there is no need to gimp your damage that much in order for one to hold aggro.

But in that squad with 2 bm, 1 cleric, 1 barb and maybe other people, they could not even stop to think and maybe even agree on who's tanking. Thats a big fail in my opinion, and its not excusable. What I suggested might not be the best way to do it since I am not a BM, I dont think like one, but it still works. I mean how much damage are you missing out with like a 30 sec of fisting without spark? But I like Telarith's and your idea more, the second BM HF so that the first BM would be able to keep his aggro better and at the same time, he is not gimping any damage.

And he putting the blame onto his aggro skills is just wrong in that case. It might be good in that situation, but there is no need for it. And that was the point that I was trying to convey here. Sometimes, there are better way to do something but everyone wants the easy way out: let the barb tank, let him take aggro.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But in that squad with 2 bm, 1 cleric, 1 barb and maybe other people, they could not even stop to think and maybe even agree on who's tanking. Thats a big fail in my opinion, and its not excusable.

Agreed. That is pretty inexcuseable.

And he putting the blame onto his aggro skills is just wrong in that case. It might be good in that situation, but there is no need for it. And that was the point that I was trying to convey here. Sometimes, there are better way to do something but everyone wants the easy way out: let the barb tank, let him take aggro.

I still think that a barb with lvl 11 aggro skills should be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game though. They should indeed have a skill that can always hold aggro... that's kind of the point of a tanking class, and at end-game, that should be an almost guaranteed trait.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I still think that a barb with lvl 11 aggro skills should be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game though. They should indeed have a skill that can always hold aggro... that's kind of the point of a tanking class, and at end-game, that should be an almost guaranteed trait.

Lets do an analogy to show you how broken this concept is. Are you saying that a cleric with lvl 11 heal skills should be able to full heal anyone?

Solandri - Heavens Tear

I suppose another way to "fix" it if they wanted to be mean would be to give more bosses and mobs a reflect damage self-buff. Make it short duration, like 5 sec. Most players can hit a mob with reflect few times, notice it, and stop their attacks before killing themselves. But anyone with high DPS would have to really be on their toes to immediately stop attacking the moment it's cast. Since one of the main reasons cited for aggro management is for DD classes to learn how to manage their damage, this would essentially accomplish the same thing.

(And while you're at it, give some mobs a Soulburn skill which they only cast on psychics. b:chuckle)

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I still think that a barb with lvl 11 aggro skills should be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game though. They should indeed have a skill that can always hold aggro... that's kind of the point of a tanking class, and at end-game, that should be an almost guaranteed trait.

That exemplifies another problem with this whole thing. If you give more aggro-holding ability to barbs who are grouping with 5 APS +12 fist BMs, then the less aggro management needs to be practiced by 2 APS +5 weapon DDs. Essentially, by trying to balance aggro end-game with uber gear, you unbalance it pre-end-game with normal gear.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I still think that a barb with lvl 11 aggro skills should be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game though. They should indeed have a skill that can always hold aggro... that's kind of the point of a tanking class, and at end-game, that should be an almost guaranteed trait.

this was my whole point in making this thread lol




@solandri
ah and i read of a +12 barb not being able to keep aggression too
what now

Balticus - Lost City

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Armageddon oneshots a lot of people, and has a chance to zerk at that.

so thats 1 skill with high miss rate,while our archers and wizzies can oneshot everyone except most barbs with almost any skill,but lets not change the subject b:laugh


increasing the agro of skills would be a nice upgrade to the neglected class that is the barb
b:victoryb:thanks

O.O why does my join date say nov 2009 when I started playing october 2008

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lets do an analogy to show you how broken this concept is. Are you saying that a cleric with lvl 11 heal skills should be able to full heal anyone?

Bad analogy. A cleric *can* fully heal people with several heal skills, a barb should be able to hold aggro over just about everyone spamming aggro skills. If you spam heal skills, the whole party should be fully healed most of the time.

If you couldn't keep a party healed by spamming your heal skills, then it would need to be fixed, right?


And if you had bothered to actually read my post, I did say 'almost guaranteed trait'.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That exemplifies another problem with this whole thing. If you give more aggro-holding ability to barbs who are grouping with 5 APS +12 fist BMs, then the less aggro management needs to be practiced by 2 APS +5 weapon DDs. Essentially, by trying to balance aggro end-game with uber gear, you unbalance it pre-end-game with normal gear.

Yes, you're right. All the servers are just overflowing with +12 5aps BMs. That's such a huge issue.

Alternative: Ignore the barb, they're unnecessary. They're not even needed in Delta. Be a good barb and know that your place is to buff and devour. You don't even need to refine your weapon. Just take min str for Calamities and restat the rest into vit cause your only real use is cata pulling. b:bye

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lets do an analogy to show you how broken this concept is. Are you saying that a cleric with lvl 11 heal skills should be able to full heal anyone?

Clerics can do that. If I spam IH I can fully heal anyone. If I use stream, I can fully heal in one use of that skill. So thanks for proving that yes, barbs should be able to hold aggro by spaming their aggro skills.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I still think that a barb with lvl 11 aggro skills should be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game though. They should indeed have a skill that can always hold aggro... that's kind of the point of a tanking class, and at end-game, that should be an almost guaranteed trait.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Bad analogy. A cleric *can* fully heal people with several heal skills, a barb should be able to hold aggro over just about everyone spamming aggro skills. If you spam heal skills, the whole party should be fully healed most of the time.

If you couldn't keep a party healed by spamming your heal skills, then it would need to be fixed, right?


And if you had bothered to actually read my post, I did say 'almost guaranteed trait'.

A barb now can also hold aggro with the use of several aggro skills(over time). There is nothing to be fixed because, frankly, what you say is true. Then you might say something like, if the DD keeps DD-ing, the barb will lose aggro. Same thing applies to healing. If the person being healed is constantly being attacked, (imagine 5 aps), your heals are not going to keep up. So is that when we ask for double effectiveness of IH?

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Clerics can do that. If I spam IH I can fully heal anyone. If I use stream, I can fully heal in one use of that skill. So thanks for proving that yes, barbs should be able to hold aggro by spaming their aggro skills.

Wow, you can fully heal a barb with 40k hp with just one stream?

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A barb now can also hold aggro with the use of several aggro skills(over time).

No, they can't. That's the point of this thread. Duh.

There is nothing to be fixed because, frankly, what you say is true. Then you might say something like, if the DD keeps DD-ing, the barb will lose aggro. Same thing applies to healing. If the person being healed is constantly being attacked, (imagine 5 aps), your heals are not going to keep up. So is that when we ask for double effectiveness of IH?

/facepalm

How many 5aps fist/claw mobs are there in PvEland?

If the person being healed is constantly being attacked, a cleric can keep up with those heals. Duh. Or, your matk sucks, your weapon refine sucks and you have way too many points into vit. I guess you can't solo heal for most bosses... I feel sorry for you. b:bye

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If the person being healed is constantly being attacked, (imagine 5 aps), your heals are not going to keep up. So is that when we ask for double effectiveness of IH?

Your analogy was bad enough to start with and then you went off into non-sense land.

X_trigger_X - Heavens Tear

The best damage dealer is the dd that does the maximum amount of damage on the target without taking aggro.

Personally I try my hardest to keep aggro from the +10 claws or whatever. If they dont gimme a chance (demon sparking 1 sec after I attack for example) I let them tank seeing as they must want aggro b:kiss

Is there really any need for any class but the cleric and claw user these days? (PvE wise :P)

SaintDominic - Sanctuary

X_trigger_X - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The best damage dealer is the dd that does the maximum amount of damage on the target without taking aggro.

Personally I try my hardest to keep aggro from the +10 claws or whatever. If they dont gimme a chance (demon sparking 1 sec after I attack for example) I let them tank seeing as they must want aggro b:kiss

Is there really any need for any class but the cleric and claw user these days? (PvE wise :P)

Agreed. I prefer a dynamic squad anyday. A cleric and a claw user is just plain BORING and not challenging.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Here's trying to clarify... b:surrender

Assume that a barb has an aggro move with aggro equivalent to 3000 damage per sec. The problem is that most high aps DD can deal more than 3000 damage per sec so the barb loses aggro.
----> if the DD deal 6000 damage, the barb would need 2 sec to match the aggro from the damage. (assuming that the DD stops attacking after dealing 6000 damage)


Now the cleric part. Lets assume that a cleric can heal 3000 damage per sec. You say that a cleric can fully heal a person by stacking ih and casting spells, which costs time. Imagine someone dealing more than 3000 damage per sec to the person being healed. Thats when the heal can't keep up.

---

> if the attacker only deals 6000 damage, the cleric would need 2 sec to heal the damage (assuming that the attacker stops attacking after dealing 6000 damage)

See the analogy here? Of course things are different with clerics and barbs since
1. aggro generated only depends on skill level, healing amount depends on magic attack too.
2. a DD in squad can +12 his weapon and increase his damage output, an attacker in the clerics case in PvE would be dealing damage in a fixed range.

The reason I brought this up is, note that the barb doesnt need to refine or spend as much in his character in order to generate a lot of aggro, he will only lose aggro against people with better refined weapons/stacked interval gears.
A cleric however, needs to refine his weapon/improve magic attack if he wants to heal more.

Asking for an aggro boost to barb would be unfair for the other classes. We spend this much time farming/buying the gears, and they just need to upgrade their skill to level 11 to keep up?

Michael_Dark - Lost City

SaintDominic - Sanctuary wrote: »

A cleric and a claw user is just plain BORING and not challenging.

It's more challenging than a full squad these days.

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The reason I brought this up is, note that the barb doesnt need to refine or spend as much in his character in order to generate a lot of aggro, he will only lose aggro against people with better refined weapons/stacked interval gears.

You're wrong. I have +12 nirvana lunar axe and I lose argo to +5 claw bms/sins/archers. Some of them aren't even 5 APS sparked yet. Demon barb with lvl 11 fr here.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The reason I brought this up is, note that the barb doesnt need to refine or spend as much in his character in order to generate a lot of aggro, he will only lose aggro against people with better refined weapons/stacked interval gears.
A cleric however, needs to refine his weapon/improve magic attack if he wants to heal more.

Asking for an aggro boost to barb would be unfair for the other classes. We spend this much time farming/buying the gears, and they just need to upgrade their skill to level 11 to keep up?

With Rank 8, Nirvana and other highly refined wepaons (thanks to +10 orb sales), barb threat generation doesn't scale and has lost their primary role as tanks.

Telling a whole party to hold back or the barb would lose aggro instead of fixing the problem is just plain stupid. I guess, in your opinion, the days of the barb are over then. They're only needed for pulling catas in TW now. That's fine with me. There are only a few world bosses I can't tank and the ones I can't, most parties wouldn't want to do anyway.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're wrong. I have +12 nirvana lunar axe and I lose argo to +5 claw bms/sins/archers. Some of them aren't even 5 APS sparked yet. Demon barb with lvl 11 fr here.

"The reason I brought this up is, note that the barb doesnt need to refine or spend as much in his character in order to generate a lot of aggro, he will only lose aggro against people with better refined weapons/stacked interval gears."

You might have the refine part, but you do not have the stacked intervals. So technically, my statement still holds true.

Now think about how you want to fix this problem. Would doubling the aggro generated from flesh ream solve your problem?

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

With Rank 8, Nirvana and other highly refined wepaons (thanks to +10 orb sales), barb threat generation doesn't scale and has lost their primary role as tanks.

Telling a whole party to hold back or the barb would lose aggro instead of fixing the problem is just plain stupid. I guess, in your opinion, the days of the barb are over then. They're only needed for pulling catas in TW now. That's fine with me. There are only a few world bosses I can't tank and the ones I can't, most parties wouldn't want to do anyway.

Are you sure that its the threat/aggro generating part that has lost them their primary role as tank? Or is it the ability of other classes to become tank and DD at the same time? Tell me, what would increasing aggro do in this case, assuming barbs are given the ability to generate tons and tons of aggro? Would they return to their role as tanks? Or would people use barbs as tanks jsut for people who cannot tank the bosses(generally low DD squad) and would prefer DD tanks to farm with?

No, days of barbs are not over. I have mentioned this in my first post here. The only way they can remain relevant in pve is to reroll fist barbs.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Originally Posted by SaintDominic - Sanctuary
A cleric and a claw user is just plain BORING and not challenging.

& it's sooooooo challenging spam healing & keeping smb with +20k hp alive... Right...

Michael_Dark - Lost City

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

& it's sooooooo challenging spam healing & keeping smb with +20k hp alive... Right...

Ever do a 2 man 3-3 or Nirvana? It is challenging. A lot more challenging than doing it with a full squad. b:bye

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Here's trying to clarify... b:surrender

Assume that a barb has an aggro move with aggro equivalent to 3000 damage per sec. The problem is that most high aps DD can deal more than 3000 damage per sec so the barb loses aggro.
----> if the DD deal 6000 damage, the barb would need 2 sec to match the aggro from the damage. (assuming that the DD stops attacking after dealing 6000 damage)


Now the cleric part. Lets assume that a cleric can heal 3000 damage per sec. You say that a cleric can fully heal a person by stacking ih and casting spells, which costs time. Imagine someone dealing more than 3000 damage per sec to the person being healed. Thats when the heal can't keep up.

---

> if the attacker only deals 6000 damage, the cleric would need 2 sec to heal the damage (assuming that the attacker stops attacking after dealing 6000 damage)

See the analogy here? Of course things are different with clerics and barbs since
1. aggro generated only depends on skill level, healing amount depends on magic attack too.
2. a DD in squad can +12 his weapon and increase his damage output, an attacker in the clerics case in PvE would be dealing damage in a fixed range.

The reason I brought this up is, note that the barb doesnt need to refine or spend as much in his character in order to generate a lot of aggro, he will only lose aggro against people with better refined weapons/stacked interval gears.
A cleric however, needs to refine his weapon/improve magic attack if he wants to heal more.

Asking for an aggro boost to barb would be unfair for the other classes. We spend this much time farming/buying the gears, and they just need to upgrade their skill to level 11 to keep up?

If this were true.. and it is not.... why would Steuk re-roll a demon -int barb and keep his cata barb instead of just changing to demon form sage? ... He has high refines and nirvana axes on his cata barb. Barbs cant keep aggro against int users and have become useless. I suggest you walk a minute in others shoes before you make ridiculous claims.

Here's how the game was designed...

Cleric = heal.
DD= deal as much damage as possible.
Barb= hold aggro and tank.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If this were true.. and it is not.... why would Steuk re-roll a demon -int barb and keep his cata barb instead of just changing to demon form sage? ... He has high refines and nirvana axes on his cata barb. Barbs cant keep aggro against int users and have become useless. I suggest you walk a minute in others shoes before you make ridiculous claims.

"Barbs cant keep aggro against int users and have become useless."
You mean this claim? I suggest you reading thru the posts in this thread. There are accounts of barbs role being overtaken by other classes.

Vit barbs are still useful actually, but only for squads that cannot tank the instance. For example, TT3-3 with mostly mid 90s.

Also why do you do TTs with Ajay and not with some other barbs if they are still useful?

"Here's how the game was designed...

Cleric = heal.
DD= deal as much damage as possible.
Barb= hold aggro and tank."

Here is how the design is broken

cleric = replaced by sin's blood paint
DD = deal as much damage as possible with perma sparks and 5 attacks per sec, tanking at the same time
barb = squad buffer

Its a wonderful 3 in 1. Even though in most cases, clerics are still needed, things are moving towards that trend now for people in their end game.