double aggression on Flesh Ream /barb skills

Asheera - Raging Tide

I don't know how Flesh Ream works, if it really resets aggro, but if it does it resets barb's as well.

Otherwise the accumulated aggro of the barb on the boss wouldn't be easy to take when he'd reset when boss has low HP for example, ijs

Traz - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

They have a skill that does exactly that called Flesh Ream lol. That doesnt mean the archer/bm/sin cant get aggro back in half a second..

FR doesn't reset any aggro it just adds for us, but 60k DPS bms or assassin generate WAY more aggro then we can even remotely get close to.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've seen a lot of BMs with more HP than that.

it s jsut example

how many 14k hp 5aps bms u know?

then oke- let it be 16k (i dont wanna say 20k cuz that would be too much for many barbs)

there always will be few extreme overgeared ppl but most 5aps bms i know are 8-10k, few 12k, so it would be enough

it also would prevent archers and sins from tanking instance..



then 11lvl aggro skills should be made much more powerful (1-10 could stay same) and 100+ pve would be somewhat fixed for barbs =P

Telarith - Sanctuary

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

it s jsut example

how many 14k hp 5aps bms u know?

then oke- let it be 16k (i dont wanna say 20k cuz that would be too much for many barbs)

there always will be few extreme overgeared ppl but most 5aps bms i know are 8-10k, few 12k, so it would be enough

it also would prevent archers and sins from tanking instance..



then 11lvl aggro skills should be made much more powerful (1-10 could stay same) and 100+ pve would be somewhat fixed for barbs =P

Still doesn't address one issue I brought up; DEF sharded BM with refined gear and BP. They can have a smaller health amount, and still have the same survival vs. spike as a higher health barb. And the DEF level makes healing them even easier than a barb, so issue still remains. Most people comparing BM to barb for tankability are basing it off of experience or theory of similarly sharded characters. End game a BM should pretty much be DEF for best effect.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

yes of course

anyone who is lvl 100 has +10 and is completely covered in Jade of Steady Defense!

Telarith - Sanctuary

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yes of course

anyone who is lvl 100 has +10 and is completely covered in Jade of Steady Defense!

Not everyone had to wait for someone else to tell them the gems were good, so some of us got a ton of em for cheap. Only reason the lazy people found out, was Sanc's archers being mouthy when they found out from BMs.

EDIT: Though by similar token; yes, of course. Because every lvl 100 barb is going to be covered in VIT stones to reach a high enough amount of health to survive the boss designed to be impossible for other tanks to kill.

IceWolf - Dreamweaver

Well i understand the problem bro, and yes perhaps it could be a good decesion, mainly for a noncash player barb as me, but other way: learn from CHILI, he was an idol for me. He was always one of the best DD, but he always could control his power. So until no changes, best thing if everybody try to learn their real job. To steal aggro at all cost is not the best properties of a good DD. Real good DD can optimize his power when it needs. For example at warsong bhs, u can steal aggro against mobs, that is not a problem, but try to concentrate against boss and dont kill full team with a "bad movement".

Telarith - Sanctuary

IceWolf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well i understand the problem bro, and yes perhaps it could be a good decesion, mainly for a noncash player barb as me, but other way: learn from CHILI, he was an idol for me. He was always one of the best DD, but he always could control his power. So until no changes, best thing if everybody try to learn their real job. To steal aggro at all cost is not the best properties of a good DD. Real good DD can optimize his power when it needs. For example at warsong bhs, u can steal aggro against mobs, that is not a problem, but try to concentrate against boss and dont kill full team with a "bad movement".

Thing is, we're trying to come up with not just ways to make barbs more equal in requirement to group at end game, but ones that actually will work. Many seem to forget, end game just about any class can tank. Some aren't worth looking at (punish the group for not having a barb tank, that is ridiculous), while some don't have enough knowledge to make a good suggestion. For the most part, I'm putting in counter-points for the blatantly obvious ideas with work-arounds to clear the bad ideas out to make way for good ones.

People really should be thanking the Tideborn though, since without them they wouldn't have reworked DEF scaling. BMs would have been THE tank if that hadn't happened, was actually the route I was working on too. There's just so much going on that most haven't even looked into, that their ideas to change something run into one of them and ultimately do nothing. Another problem is people thinking tank must be barbarian. They are called Barbarian, not Tank. BMs were offtank, which if people didn't realize that meant end game they could primary tank shows poor thinking skills. Higher refines and end game will change gameplay alot, similarly to how barb's sucked at PvP before hitting level 77. And how most won't even change from VIT tank barb, even though BMs changed from VIT axe realizing how bad it was finally. If people are being pigeon-holed into set roles, then Arma needs to be removed; tank only class should not be dishing out DD type damage after all.

Barbs that were actually helpful and not selfish should really have no problem finding groups still anyways. The ones who faction hop, are greedy, complain about tank costs while demanding repair costs and first pick, etc. are the main ones who are getting screwed. And I can't find any sympathy for them, or a wish for them to remain playing. So I prefer ideas for the first group of barbs, and be of little or no help for the second group. Working to make something barb tankable only, ever, just means a resurge of the selfish jerks.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

ohhey ice!
i still remember my first TT runs back in lvl 6X with you! b:chuckle
youre one of the few barbs who did actually bother canceling every aoe on bosses xd
so u couldnt type lol.
interesting how u connect "bad movements" to me b:laugh

and aggro control hmmm..., even CHILI is (or was?) limited to his class
wiz Aggro Control on lvl-? bosses should be easy, there is none, no stealing , not with crit spree sparked/frenzy :x, damage output over time cant compete with anything that uses fists. check nien event rankings

major thought is: why control when you know you can take the beating anyways and just speed it up b:surrender

idk just thought it would be nice for barbs to take the beating, .......i know you want the beating b:sin





EDIT

i agree people who think barbs are the only tanks are stupid
but to think Barbs and BMs are the only tanks just as bad lol


what pissed me off most when i was like lvl60:
an AXE bm tanking ..omg
(ok no matter what lvl, that ll suck always)

only to realize that the "soso" squishies can tank most of the stuff a bm can tank too (back at low lvl again)

everyone is and always was Tank-sidekick


oh why is your avatar stuck at 77? made me look at you from adifferent perspective, lol sry ranting a bit





uhm what are we talking about again? i miss the point, less wall of text plz aargh

Telarith - Sanctuary

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

EDIT

i agree people who think barbs are the only tanks are stupid
but to think Barbs and BMs are the only tanks just as bad lol


what pissed me off most when i was like lvl60:
an AXE bm tanking ..omg
(ok no matter what lvl, that ll suck always)

only to realize that the "soso" squishies can tank most of the stuff a bm can tank too (back at low lvl again)

everyone is and always was Tank-sidekick


oh why is your avatar stuck at 77? made me look at you from adifferent perspective, lol sry ranting a bit





uhm what are we talking about again? i miss the point, less wall of text plz aargh

VIT axe tank has always been terrible for BM, VIT spear with dance of universe +6 was terrible too, as archers/wizzies stole aggro from them in no time. Blade or fist are pretty much best bet for BM tanking, and they need to have some -int gear at least.

BM and Barb are not, and have never been the only tanks. I was first on server, and every boss for culti or FB had a discussion of who would tank the boss based off of gear and set-up. Everyone was of level, so couldn't over-power through it. Wizzie typically got fire/water/earth ones, krixxix was almost always wizzie. Cleric could do all pretty equally, but slowed unless someone else healed them. Veno pet was usually doing the mod-50 blue bosses, typically bugging them with flying pet on Gouf and Kimsa or whatshisname south of Stairway.

Honestly, the barb must be tank mentality came later on, when barb's would go back and help in FBs. The higher level made it not matter that they weren't the best suited for it, and the newer servers had these people move over and continue the trend. I don't think any of the older 3 servers started like that, since we had so many come from other PW versions.

Avatar has been perma-bugged for going on a year, none of the usual fixes worked so I stopped worrying about it.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

FR doesn't reset any aggro it just adds for us, but 60k DPS bms or assassin generate WAY more aggro then we can even remotely get close to.

It definitely resets all aggro.

Flesh ream steals aggro momentarily from 5aps archers even if they have built up like 30s of aggro. That is an obscene amount of aggro to overcome even for a split second. If flesh ream was that powerful it would be impossible to lose aggro to non 5aps classes after a single flesh ream at the beginning.

All that happens is that it resets all aggro and gives you some.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

It definitely resets all aggro.

Flesh ream steals aggro momentarily from 5aps archers even if they have built up like 30s of aggro. That is an obscene amount of aggro to overcome even for a split second. If flesh ream was that powerful it would be impossible to lose aggro to non 5aps classes after a single flesh ream at the beginning.

All that happens is that it resets all aggro and gives you some.

We had a great barb, and we had a trial on that giant ant in OHT for aggro. Flesh Ream doesn't seem to reset aggro, so much as it either lowers others aggro or simply forces aggro over. Because while the first Flesh Ream transferred aggro back for 5 seconds, each successive time it lowered how long aggro would be transferred back until it would immediately swap back to me almost immediately. So it can't be a full reset, or the results would end the same each time instead of shortening.

EDIT: This is when I was either 3.33 or 4 APS, and again, this barb was one of the best I've seen at using their skills for aggro management.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Honestly, the barb must be tank mentality came later on, when barb's would go back and help in FBs. The higher level made it not matter that they weren't the best suited for it, and the newer servers had these people move over and continue the trend. I don't think any of the older 3 servers started like that, since we had so many come from other PW versions.

ur talknig about low levels.

i dont remeber bms, wizzes or venos tanknig TT bosses. drummer, mirror guy or even snake would eat alive anyone else trying to tank.


imo prob is that endgame instnces arent designed for OP ppl we have now. If everyone woulds run around in 90 green gear refined to 3-6 with some single gold pieces , and without any event/lunar stuff then tanknig 3-3 would look bit different.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

ur talknig about low levels.

i dont remeber bms, wizzes or venos tanknig TT bosses. drummer, mirror guy or even snake would eat alive anyone else trying to tank.


imo prob is that endgame instnces arent designed for OP ppl we have now. If everyone woulds run around in 90 green gear refined to 3-6 with some single gold pieces , and without any event/lunar stuff then tanknig 3-3 would look bit different.

FB59, FB69, FB79, FB89, FB99 were done by non-barb tanks as well. Drummer I soloed with my cleric in 1-2 in 7X range in single, and later on had my BM with a 2nd account cleric kill 1-3 squad drummer with BB going in either high 8X or low 9X area. And we usually have a BM tank snakefist BH100 while our barb goes human form for the boss.

So.......

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

sorry but u do 1-2 on 65-75 lvls tops

1-3 on 75-85

so not with +10lvl higher people.

beside that, you also had to make inefficient squads (2nd cleric just for perm BB? or u were tanking with charm?)



so... cant take it as valid argument (we arent talking about normal squads in normal lvl range)

Telarith - Sanctuary

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

sorry but u do 1-2 on 65-75 lvls tops

1-3 on 75-85

so not with +10lvl higher people.

beside that, you also had to make inefficient squads (2nd cleric just for perm BB? or u were tanking with charm?)



so... cant take it as valid argument (we arent talking about normal squads in normal lvl range)

Could probably have done it earlier, but I needed to level up my 2nd account cleric to finally get BB, and by that time my BM was higher. And it was just my BM and my lvl 59 cleric in there. Also did a 3-1 squad mode all bosses with the same set-up right after. No 2nd cleric, just the one. And that was before I made an assassin on the 2nd account to give the BloodPaint buff, which made it even easier. And 3-1 is in lvl range for where I was at the time.

BB was done mostly to keep cleric alive and make it easier controlling 2 characters at once, spamming IB kind of sucks when trying to tank and kill at same time. Though if I use them again, they will likely BB to make BloodPaint's heal effect that much better. Cleric being low level was the main reason holding off on doing solo squad TT runs (or duo, depending on how you look at it).

Checked pictures and was 92 I think for the 1-X and 3-1s. Pretty much went through and tried to see what could be done with just a 59 cleric and a BM, getting down timings and survivability to compare the difference in damage between a said instance and the next one I want to go on, to decide what needs to be increased to complete it. Really, them adding assassins made everything a heck of a lot easier.

This is just personal experience though, Josh has regularly been tanking the TT bosses at level without having gold equipes and doing just fine. He does it in groups where he tanks, whereas I built up to where I could safely profit from making solo player runs in squad mode.

Sallust - Dreamweaver

People with 5 aps will always be a better tank then any barberian tank.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Sallust - Dreamweaver wrote: »

People with 5 aps will always be a better tank then any barberian tank.

Not always, but most things in the game do not, and have not, required a barb to always be tank. And the ones who do, will eventually be tankable by others since they have reached end game area. So they get the best gear, socket it out, and refine it higher and higher. Which means less and less mobs will require a barb as a must have for tanking. Even the PQ100 boss is already tankable with just BP and the JJ event food (lvl 25 giving 2500 health) and sparking with +5 Windpours. Won't even tick a charm when you get the timing down, and I have less than 6K health atm.

So even if they make a boss untankable by all but barb, is it going to be for current gear, or future gear? Because people who have been playing almost 2 years are going to be there before the 3rd year is finished. If it's future, then they will be fussed at for making something no one but a professional group can tank. If it's current, then there will already be some non-barbs able to tank it, and eventually the same issue of higher refined gear making everyone able to tank it that already exists.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

We had a great barb, and we had a trial on that giant ant in OHT for aggro. Flesh Ream doesn't seem to reset aggro, so much as it either lowers others aggro or simply forces aggro over. Because while the first Flesh Ream transferred aggro back for 5 seconds, each successive time it lowered how long aggro would be transferred back until it would immediately swap back to me almost immediately. So it can't be a full reset, or the results would end the same each time instead of shortening.

EDIT: This is when I was either 3.33 or 4 APS, and again, this barb was one of the best I've seen at using their skills for aggro management.

Well if you were 3.33 you werent sparking all the time which would mean you werent doing steady DD.

Try using another weapon after a flesh ream that a barb would normally be able to hold against. If you still had any of that large amount of aggro you started with then youd steal it back even if you lowered your dps. What happens tho is that the barb holds no matter how much aggro you built up.

You see this in nein event too. This is also why if you have several fisters it tends to jump around a bit after a flesh ream while with no flesh ream the highest DD holds it steady.

volst

Some people need to learn to read better. I said "except their own".

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you make bosses too hard that you need +10 gear with a BARB tanking, then a lot many more ppl will QQ about the too high difficulty, than the ones QQing about being too easy now. And not to mention devs want their content explored by as many people as possible and not just a few uber geared ones I bet.

What the hell are you talking about? Even before floods of Nirvana gear and +10 orbs, event gear for those that had it really didn't make anything OP at all. Bosses like old Primal Fear, Herzen Sori Demos, Crystal Terror and others were still tankable by barbs with decent gears from standards a year ago. Primal Fear has been nurfed (though was never really tankable by melee), Sori has been removed from the game, and Crystal Terror is still there.

There are maybe 2 or 3 world bosses that a 10k hp bm can't tank. That's with genies... this game is too easy as it is now. Perhaps old Frost would still be difficult, but 10x BMs, Barbs and Sins solo Frost. So I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Apparently you don't either because you're very new to the game despite your irrelevant number next to your name.

...

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Flesh Ream doesn't seem to reset aggro, so much as it either lowers others aggro or simply forces aggro over. Because while the first Flesh Ream transferred aggro back for 5 seconds, each successive time it lowered how long aggro would be transferred back until it would immediately swap back to me almost immediately. So it can't be a full reset, or the results would end the same each time instead of shortening.

No, Flesh Ream and Roar do not fully reset aggro. Aggro mechanics would seem to be quite complicated actually.... in testing various veno pet skills as well as observation over the past year, none of the aggro skills appear to fully reset. Try attacking a boss and then stop, let the barb or herc flesh ream or roar and let the barb die. The boss doesn't reset, it will still go to the next highest DD and proceed to attack until they're dead.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

imo prob is that endgame instnces arent designed for OP ppl we have now. If everyone woulds run around in 90 green gear refined to 3-6 with some single gold pieces , and without any event/lunar stuff then tanknig 3-3 would look bit different.

No, actually it wouldn't look much different at all. Even without event gears and +!0 orb sales, 3-3 could still be tanked by a BM, Archer or even mage with good gear... it would just take a lot more time than it does with 5aps, 8jun or nirvana weapons. Most of the 'tricks' for doing these older instances were figured out way before any of the event gears came out.

With all the +10 orb sales, nirvana and event gear, it's sad that people can't do old Frost. That would actually be fun for 10x.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

@Telarith

yeah, u were doing 75-85 instance with 92 bm..

and sorry, but i cant imagine tanking 1-3 drum or soul by 75-85 lvl bms much. Without BB they pretty often would just get oneshot. And even with BB, boss would do enough DPS to kill many (if no 2nd healer or charm).


@Michael_Dark

it would look different. BM would have to be vit build to be able to tank beast or empe, Vit bms would suck at holding aggro, so ppl would choose barbs as tanks.

dex bms without really good gear would simply get oneshot or would require 2nd cler or charm


ofc you can do few bosses there ranged, but that requires well geared ppl. Averange, dex archer would have hard times on emperor- this guy can actually hit hard with ranged attacks


to avoid all those problems many averange squads were deciding to take cat often. (you cant always get 7k hp archer or bm for buff)


barbs were comfortable and reliable- they made things go much easier


atm we are at point that nobody really care anymore if there will be barb in squad. 'Anyone' can tank without much effort. BH/hyper **** dont use any 'old tricks' in 3-3 - they just tank everything with gear.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about? Even before floods of Nirvana gear and +10 orbs, event gear for those that had it really didn't make anything OP at all.

I don't see how this part makes any sense at all.

"Event gear" was the same back then as it is now.

Of course TT3-x are "easy" for a level 100 with lvl100 uber refined gear... you forget those are supposed to be ran by people before having that gear in the first place. Much of refining is also cash-shop based so that throws the high refining requirement. (hey it's still technically Free-to-Play in PvE right?). Makes as much sense as requiring people to wear nirvana equipment before opening nirvana!

Unless you are one of those who thinks instances should last 3-5 hours, I'm pretty sure that most people have a life though and the devs realized that.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

No, Flesh Ream and Roar do not fully reset aggro. Aggro mechanics would seem to be quite complicated actually.... in testing various veno pet skills as well as observation over the past year, none of the aggro skills appear to fully reset. Try attacking a boss and then stop, let the barb or herc flesh ream or roar and let the barb die. The boss doesn't reset, it will still go to the next highest DD and proceed to attack until they're dead.

Maybe I should be clear what I meant. While the boss doesnt forget about you, it no longer has any notion of how much damage anyone has done after a flesh ream.

The boss keeps an ordered list of everything it hates and works its way down from the top. The top entry changes as targets die or as DD out aggro eachother. When you flesh ream everyones entry but the barb is reset but noone is removed from the list. You get attacked because you're still on the list even though the barb reset all the aggro you built.

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Maybe I should be clear what I meant. While the boss doesnt forget about you, it no longer has any notion of how much damage anyone has done after a flesh ream.

The boss keeps an ordered list of everything it hates and works its way down from the top. The top entry changes as targets die or as DD out aggro eachother. When you flesh ream everyones entry but the barb is reset but noone is removed from the list. You get attacked because you're still on the list even though the barb reset all the aggro you built.

By this Theory then, doesn't that mean if everyones aggro is reset but you still stay on the list, if the barb were to flesh ream and then no damage is dealt by anyone however the cleric is still healing the barb wouldnt that then make the cleric 2nd in the list to be attacked if the barb died?

Im pretty sure that doesn't happen though unless I misunderstood you.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver wrote: »

By this Theory then, doesn't that mean if everyones aggro is reset but you still stay on the list, if the barb were to flesh ream and then no damage is dealt by anyone however the cleric is still healing the barb wouldnt that then make the cleric 2nd in the list to be attacked if the barb died?

Im pretty sure that doesn't happen though unless I misunderstood you.

From what I understand, damage generates aggression and only the aggression part can be reset but roar and alpha male, but it's the combination of the two that decides who gets aggro. Healing aggression is factored in but I'm not totally sure how.

Dice_i - Sanctuary

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no.
if you do this, barbs would have to tank in true form which is away from what it is now
the ideal end game tank have to tank with stacked interval fist or claw and making flesh ream 2 times as effective would be promoting the wrong idea ie you have to stay in true form and tank while dealing less damage(as a sage and beacuse all the time used in spamming fleshream would be better spent in fisting the boss to death)

Sorry for quoting a necro but this made me laugh. End game tank needs claws and fists? That's why it's called Axe&Hammer Mastery and not Fist&Claws.. indeed.. b:surrender

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't see how this part makes any sense at all.

"Event gear" was the same back then as it is now.

Of course TT3-x are "easy" for a level 100 with lvl100 uber refined gear... you forget those are supposed to be ran by people before having that gear in the first place. Much of refining is also cash-shop based so that throws the high refining requirement. (hey it's still technically Free-to-Play in PvE right?). Makes as much sense as requiring people to wear nirvana equipment before opening nirvana!

Unless you are one of those who thinks instances should last 3-5 hours, I'm pretty sure that most people have a life though and the devs realized that.

When event gear first came out, what, last October, most people didn't have ridiculously high refines... I ran 3-3 when I was high 8x in a squad of mostly 9x BEFORE event gear came out, guess what, our squad lived and finished the whole instance. I guess that's just impossible by your book. Old Lunar was doable without event gears. So was old Frost. You think things are too difficult now? lol. You don't even have a clue how difficult the game was before all this happened...

Since that's probably too difficult for you to understand, event gears, when they first came out didn't tip the balance alone. The +10 orb sales have done farm more to imbalance the game than the gear they gave away in packs. Event boots OP? HH99 Boots aren't significantly worse. Event Helm? Sure it's really nice, but G11 helm could be pretty easily farmed in 2nd map... and it refined the same. Not much of an imbalance. It wasn't until earlier this year that game balance started to become significantly skewed. But, of course, that's too adult a puzzle for you to comprehend with your tiny, narrow minded idealistic view of how things were when you weren't even around and don't have a clue.

Yeah, you want your easy game... port into instance, kill one mob, have it drop all the mats you need... you're done! I'm sure glad you have no influence over game development here. There wouldn't actually be any game left to play with your free coin giveaway quests, easy mode gaming. Perhaps a game like Jade Dynasty would be more fitting for you. Sit there, gain exp, win. Just your style.

lol, you're a 9x mage who can't even afford or farm your own 90 gear. How fail is that... b:bye

Telarith - Sanctuary

@Paramedic
Josh was tanking that particular boss (Drummer) at lvl, I did not bother with it until lvl 92 range. At which point I soloed squad mode of 1-3 squad mode, and then 3-1 squad mode (which 92 is in range of). That was not when drummer first became possible, just when I actually attempted it. Again, that was without BP buff, and survivability was a non-issue with just BB and the healing of it from a lvl 59 cleric. Josh proves it can tank that specific boss without losing aggro, I proved 3-1 squad was possible.

@Asterelle
Perma-spark or not does not matter in this particular instance. What matters is taking it all into account with cycles. I would have back to back sparks about the first time, and then have a set down-time afterwards with 3.33. If Flesh Ream reset aggro completely each time, it should have had me grab aggro faster in the beginning, before being the same time from then on in subsequent spark cycles.

But it didn't. Longest time I didn't have it would be during the high damage part, and the shortening occurs during the lower damage set cycle time. Which would be when it should always be close to the same, not constantly lowering until practically null.

EDIT: And I know I'm going to regret treating Borsuc's post as having factual basis, but where the heck did he get that Nirvana needed Nirvana gear to beat? Or high refines for that matter? I had 90 chest and leggings still when doing it, and armor refined through mirage with no refining aids. Better yet, has he even done a Nirvna run to have input that could even be considered valuable about it?

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

@Telarith

then Josh is one of those exceptions that proves the rule


how much hP/def have typical late-70s or early-80 bm?


1-3 drum have 3229 - 9685 p.attack, and 4842 - 14527 m.attack

it means that 70-80lvl HA tank should have 8k HP (or even 10k if 70lvl) to not get oneshot by worst nukes

and you need to add to this 900-2.7k dmg per every melee hit, so your tank would be able to survive nuke+ melee combo


so yeah, without perm BB and another cler healing, and vit build- this boss is quite impossible to tank for normal bm at level