double aggression on Flesh Ream /barb skills
Comments
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Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »No they can tank. Find lowbies/mages/venoes of the faction. With a +12 nirvana I am pretty sure you can hold aggro vs them.
You have mentioned the problem. They still won't be the most desirable tank, it might improve them a little. But the problem with the aggro mechanics is how much do you want to improve their aggro?
A mediocre geared barb able to hold aggro vs 5 aps DDs? Where do you want to draw the line? Too high, and you might as well not have aggro in this game. Part of challenge in this game is aggro management, and letting barbs dealing infinite aggro can be considered game breaking as well.
Giving barbs not enough aggro, lets say they can hold aggro vs +5 fist now, t is improved so that they can hold vs +6 fist now, they would still QQ about +7 fists later on.
So you see, its not as easy as letting barbs generate tons of aggro. A lot of other things should be considered as well. You are jsut being selfish if you insist on wanting it.
What is trying to be said is...all things being equal, a barbarian cannot hold aggro from a (interval class), despite spamming their aggro skills.
How this is fixed, is controversial. Obviously it wouldn't do to have a barbarian in +5 Calamities holding aggro from a +12 Striking Dragon. It needs to be somehow scaled in a way that reflects gear and refine changes on the barbarian. Perhaps base aggro generation on their physcal damage? I don't know.
But as of now, I don't see how you can say with a straight face things are okay.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Look at the title of this thread. All I am saying is that double aggression on flesh ream/barbs skills won't work.
I don't think I've said anything about everything being OK.
Me qq-ing about channeling is one of them. Jones does not break the game that much, in fact since it is available to all classes, it is definitely more balanced than intervals.What is trying to be said is...all things being equal, a barbarian cannot hold aggro from a (interval class), despite spamming their aggro skills.
All things being equal? Perhaps you can start assuming that when mages get their channeling boosted. Barbs can reroll into fists, a mage can't. (Well, they technically can, but would not get the desired effect)
Another way to look at this. Do you think a barb's aggro is balanced? Do you think interval geared DDs are OP? All things being equal? The game doesnt even allow you to equate that.Thanks Chillum for the nice Sig.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »Bunch o' ****.
1) You're a psychic. You aren't going to be able to tank the same things LA -int fist/claw archers are, nor BMs - and yes BMs that stack their -int are DDs and yes they are damned good tanks.
2) You have to control your damage so you don't steal from a barb but you're apparently going to steal from a stacked -int user at 5APS? Ha ha ha. You're a joker.
The appropriate question is WTF is wrong with you. You have clearly never been in a squad where capable DDs have tanked (which means I assume you Oracle'd and Hyper'd your way into your levels because I have had plenty of experience with archer tanks, BM tanks and Sin tanks) and you clearly don't have a single clue what you're talking about.
The good tank in this game is the guy/girl who can tank a boss and survive. Nowhere in that description is their a limit on class.
Just because you're a 93 psychic who can't tank worth a **** that doesn't mean you need to pretend no DD can tank, and just because you've never squadded with a real -int user with 5 APS triple sparked that doesn't mean you can pretend you're going to steal aggro off everything.
Kindly leave this thread, get a clue, and come back when you're more knowledgeable, kthnx.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »Jones does not break the game that much, in fact since it is available to all classes, it is definitely more balanced than intervals.
/facepalm
You're not in a TW or in a faction that PKs are you? Jones blessing doesn't not break the game that much. lol You really are trolling.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
jones blessing are a real gift
i cant take much so i dont care if they hit 30% harder
when i get killed in 1 stun anways blessing or not
..good update for squishies with bad gear
but what the heck brings up the jones blessing in the barb aggro thread
?
past pages:
lylfo vs the rest of the community loli like potato0 -
You're post is a success no matter what. The vote to increase aggro on barb skills has won by a land slide. Time to ignore Lyfo's posts.0
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All right, because there still seems to be some confusion out there, I'll lay out some of the challenges facing Late-End game barbs with all the changes this past year.
!. Aggro retention due in part to all the new high damage gear, and also due to increasingly available massive -int stacking gear. Damage output has been ramped up significantly, aggro skills have not been adjusted at all. Strike 1 for barb.
2. Decreased role of meat-shield in pve due to new high grade armor/refines/gems/stones. Without barb needed to soak up damage (our real true specialty) our lack of aggro is not even missed in most instances. Survivability of all classes has been increased, instances have been 'revamped' to make them easier, who needs a meat shield? Strike 2 for barb.
3. No longer stand out as 'the durable class' in pvp. Sure, barbs are not the biggest hitters out there (except a lucky arma or 2) but we used to get by on our shear ability to just take hit after hit. Even with all the defense bonuses introduced lately, Jones has come along and hammered the final nail in our coffin. We are now squishy. Not 1 or 2 shots like everyone else now (for the most part), but squishy none the less. Strike 3 for barb.
There are some solutions being used in game, but none of them are great. The number one solution being restating and going fist with stacked -int. This will effectively make your barb a lot like a fist BM. yay. Sure you can keep up damage wise (so long as you don't buff the BM) but you give up your skills and most of the advantages of being a barb.
Barbs have always been a bit mismanaged in their damage formula to be great DD. Barbs are generally locked into one weapon type, hammers and axes. Hammer/Axe weapons, in terms of melee weapons, are on one side of the dph/dps scale. (the dph side) Now DPH weapons benefit the most from spamming attack skills, as the speed of skills is always the same anyway. Problem is, barbs attack skills generally suck damage-wise. Just look up the numbers in www.ecatomb.net and compare our skill damage with BM or sin.
The true irony of it is that barb buff skills give us relatively large gains in weapon damage, a trait thats best suited to dps weapons. Its that trait that even allows us to keep up when using fists. And don't give me that Jones Blessing ****, because if you were on top or bottom of the DD totem before Jones, your still on the top or bottom now. It was a linear change (except in helping to defeat one of the barbs only specialties, survival)
"So?" you say "barbs arent meant to be DD, they have all those defensive skills, aggro skills, and high hp instead." Exactly. Except tall those traits are really only good for tanking, and as we have seen have all become obsolete...Oh well, at least we have good buffs, right?0 -
Lylfo hates Barbs, ah well. =(Like they say in my country:
When you are too smart, smartness eats you up.0 -
Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »Barbs are still needed in mid to high level tanking like squads with venos, wizards, psychics, clerics, non-interval archer, non-interval fist bm, and non interval sins. intervals starts to come in the bigger picture at level 95+, so at your lvl 90, you might not have much experience yet. That and the limited number of 5aps DD who can tank.
edit : http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=757772&page=3
here is a nice thread on what 90+ sins can tank.
first: why would a DD want to TANK thats the question I want you to ask yourself
second:DD tanking is not faster at all,DD's wouldn't hold much against a boss that deals 6k unless he had ballin gear like +10 or more(reference sin tanking frost >.>)
third:barbs provide quality tanking and a more safe run since we are meatshields after all
fourth:we're actually faster since you can do all ultimate attacks without us losing agro(taking out each boss in 5-6 mins)and we require less heals which lets the cleric get a couple of hits on the boss too.
fifth:lol at my lvl? I've holded agro from 95+ barrage from archer hh 99 gold bow +8 and full diamond of T,so yeah I've been through alot as a tank
please guys whats the NO about? why dont you want us to have more agro in our skills? why do you want us to go claw and fist?restating to dex for claws would make us what? fail bms?
STOP hating on us kitties and let us do our job,when a DD can take a 10k hit from a boss and run at 9.5 meters through all the instance let me be struck by lighting
b:thanks0 -
Bartack, I agree with everything you've said up to this:Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »And don't give me that Jones Blessing ****, because if you were on top or bottom of the DD totem before Jones, your still on the top or bottom now. It was a linear change (except in helping to defeat one of the barbs only specialties, survival)
Jones blessing benefits ranged classes far more than it does melee in PvP. As a melee, you have a harder time even reaching the mage or archer. In TW, the +30 blessing means nothing to barbs and bms... it only hastens their demise.Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »You're post is a success no matter what. The vote to increase aggro on barb skills has won by a land slide. Time to ignore Lyfo's posts.
I don't think I've seen a popular poll that has been so lopsided. 159 to 14 so far. I never thought users on this forum could ever come to a majority consensus such as this. It is convincing.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »Bartack, I agree with everything you've said up to this:
Jones blessing benefits ranged classes far more than it does melee in PvP. As a melee, you have a harder time even reaching the mage or archer. In TW, the +30 blessing means nothing to barbs and bms... it only hastens their demise.
I don't think I've seen a popular poll that has been so lopsided. 159 to 14 so far. I never thought users on this forum could ever come to a majority consensus such as this. It is convincing.
I'm not really against, but here's a few problems:
*For me agro management & learning when to stop was part of the game & what makes it fun. This was while I was still squishy enough if I pulled agro I payed for it b:cry But learned in the process. If they increase the agro that the barb will be able to easily hold from 4/5 aps or x3 spark demons... That is dumbing the game so much... It's like taking Arma in 3-3 & taking out his aoe, drain & one shot skill (blah can't think of a better analogy)... Do you get what I mean?
While other classes are able to tank through all lvls depending on bosses/gear/etc still at lower lvls I'm sure a squad would pref a barb for Pole in 69 rather than risk with a bm. The most QQ is about endgame barbs only being useful as catapullers because a lot of parties DON'T EVEN WANT THEM & THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF POOR AGRO SKILLS, but because replacing a barb with a fist DD that can successfully tank is going to save tons of time & resources for everyone; since compared to the DD BARB DMG IS ****.
*Let's say agro skills for puppies are increased, if I had a choice, for example, for nirvana or any other instance, to take a puppy or a DD that can tank. I would choose the DD, because saving time is nice; unless the barb has some crazy refines or fist/claw user.
So... to conclude, if you increase the agro of barb (THIS DEPENDs HOW & BY HOW MUCH THOUGH), a DD tank is still preffered because of dealing more damage; while at the same time making the game even easier & less challenging for those DDs that can't tank, since thye will no longer worry about getting any agro.
BUT HERE IS A + NO MORE CLERIC QQ THREADS ABOUT HOW DDS CAUGHT AGRO & BLAMED THE CLERIC FOR NOT HEALING THEM IN TIME. Lol a clerics job will be even more a spam heal on a single barb if he's in squad. Guess won't be much QQ any longer about fail clerics as well.
Oh what the hell increase the agro[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »*For me agro management & learning when to stop was part of the game & what makes it fun. This was while I was still squishy enough if I pulled agro I payed for it b:cry But learned in the process. If they increase the agro that the barb will be able to easily hold from 4/5 aps or x3 spark demons... That is dumbing the game so much... It's like taking Arma in 3-3 & taking out his aoe, drain & one shot skill (blah can't think of a better analogy)... Do you get what I mean?
No, I don't get that analogy. *anyone* can tank Illusion Lord. At 101 unless you have horrible gear, you should be able to solo tank it. He hits melee harder, but I can live long enough on hp food for a cleric to die, go to town and come back...
There shouldn't be anything in 3-2 or 3-3 that you as an archer can't tank. So no, I don't understand how scaling threat for barbs level 11 skills would even be comparable.While other classes are able to tank through all lvls depending on bosses/gear/etc still at lower lvls I'm sure a squad would pref a barb for Pole in 69 rather than risk with a bm. The most QQ is about endgame barbs only being useful as catapullers because a lot of parties DON'T EVEN WANT THEM & THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF POOR AGRO SKILLS, but because replacing a barb with a fist DD that can successfully tank is going to save tons of time & resources for everyone; since compared to the DD BARB DMG IS ****.
RANDOMLY CAPITALIZING CERTAIN SENTENCES DOES NOT MAKE YOUR POINT MORE VALID.
DO YOU THINK I ALWAYS WANT TO BE THE ONE TANKING? DO I LIKE TO TANK EVERYTHING AND EVERY WORLD BOSS? NO I DON'T
OK so your solution is just to let barbs remain worthless. Good job professor.QQQQQQQ
/facepalmI post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
/facepalm I wasn't tanking about myself tanking 3-3. I meant that in my opinion this would make the game even easier... Which I'd think would kind'a suck.No, I don't get that analogy. *anyone* can tank Illusion Lord. At 101 unless you have horrible gear, you should be able to solo tank it. He hits melee harder, but I can live long enough on hp food for a cleric to die, go to town and come back...
There shouldn't be anything in 3-2 or 3-3 that you as an archer can't tank. So no, I don't understand how scaling threat for barbs level 11 skills would even be comparable.
No but it makes the main point more visible through a wall of text. Meh I'll just use some colour text b:cuteRANDOMLY CAPITALIZING CERTAIN SENTENCES DOES NOT MAKE YOUR POINT MORE VALIDOK so your solution is just to let barbs remain worthless.
I guess the colourful text & larger font didn't help... BACK TO MY CAPSI'm not really against, but here's a few problems:
IN MY OPINION, it is part of being a DD & knowing when to stop while still dealing decent dmg... Or atleast it was till I got good gear. Now it's afk hit on auto atk - I get agro - meh w/e - continue auto atking.DO YOU THINK I ALWAYS WANT TO BE THE ONE TANKING? DO I LIKE TO TANK EVERYTHING AND EVERY WORLD BOSS? NO I DON'T
However if they increase barb agro that lvl interval when doing bhs was actually challenging & I didn't want as hell getting agro b:shocked would go bye bye b:bye
Before you reply I copy paste again
(increase in barb agro)I'm not really against, but here's a few problems:
I Remember when I got into the +90s with my barb... It was hell... I couldn't hold any agro... Almost ragequit him. Back then changing cultis wasn't available, so going demon & having no dmg reduction or a faster demon ream wasn't an option...
To keep going I refed the hell out of my weapon, I changed my build from vit to one that would help me deal more dmg... I learned how & when to to use my skills better & I became a better tank & player that could hold agro pretty well... (At least till I got to 100 lol) & All this was because I had problems holding agro.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
all the Reds, and Caps and and and Quotes are making me go b:cry
my last exp playing a barb was a TT3-3 run back when my dear companions ( :P )were unable to tank it, and not even full intervall, with like +3 on everything
i wont say im good at playing barb, but i know the basics
+barb had all tanking skills in sage version
sweating, unable to type anything due to skill spams, stress and the fish was still dead every now and then (without sparking)
chance to keep 2sparks for *worst case turtle mode* ? NO WAY i like potato0 -
This is one of them times when it would be nice if a dev or GM is following this thread and finding out if any updates are possible or in the pipeline allready.02/07/2011 - Lost paitence with PWI sold all my gear bought packs and wasted my coin till it was gone... goodbye PWI b:bye0
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Sirsmokealot - Raging Tide wrote: »This is one of them times when it would be nice if a dev or GM is following this thread and finding out if any updates are possible or in the pipeline allready.
Yeah but saying "nothing will be done" nicely is kinda hard.100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.0 -
Please say NO, I want cheaper repair bills please...b:laugh[SIGPIC]http://a.imageshack.us/img714/9433/testoz.jpg[/SIGPIC]
If I had a dime for every time I was wrong, I'd be broke.0 -
Dsholder - Dreamweaver wrote: »Please say NO, I want cheaper repair bills please...b:laugh
Then why bother rolling a barb then? O.o0 -
Why is this even an issue?
People who want faster runs will go with -interval tanks. People who want safer runs or don't know any high-interval peeps that can actually tank too will go with a Barb. Just up the barb's aggro so they actually have at least a slight chance to do what they were designed to do and let people decide who they want to work with. >.>0 -
runs are safe enough with decent non-barb tank
and there will be more and more well geared ppl since there is nothing else to do on 100 than just gear urself
and now -int became main goal for most ppl
so it is just matter of time..BUILD EFFICIENCY CALCULATOR: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1129681
AGGRO MECHANICS: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=481682
GAME IS DEAD wiki-article: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=9382820 -
Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »runs are safe enough with decent non-barb tank
and there will be more and more well geared ppl since there is nothing else to do on 100 than just gear urself
and now -int became main goal for most ppl
so it is just matter of time..
This is assuming that everyone in the squad knows what they're doing. For those that are still sifting through random squads until they can enjoy the luxury of regular people to work with that's not always the case though. =(0 -
I don't care if a BM tanks and/or if a squad doesn't want to invite me, but the option to tank should still be there for me which leads to the following:
Not all BMs want to tank, so I stay tiger and tank it if aggro gets fixed (even if they are 5.0)
If BMs want to tank it *changes to human form* or don't invite me to squad
That's the end of the story BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
If you dont want a barb in your squad then fine but according to the poll a good quantity of people want our skills upped(which our skills where nerfed to begin with thanks to old claims of us being OP >.>),if you dont want a barb then fine STOP TROLLING AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE OTHER PEOPLE DO WANT US AS TANKS0
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There is no "fun" in trying to not take aggro. In fact this game is weird and lacks an aggro meter with which you can see boss's aggro list when you select it.
In the other game I played there was a thread about tanks being useless, but that's because most other classes could tank if properly geared (and tanks do crappy damage). But they had no problems at keeping aggro, as it should be. Was a bit hard to keep it from a DD fully nuking (I mean, no slacking allowed, do your best) but not impossible.
Having to nerf your damage from even the most pro barbs with similar gear to yours is stupid and proves the flawed design of their aggro skills.First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
Quit.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
I don't think I've seen a popular poll that has been so lopsided. 159 to 14 so far. I never thought users on this forum could ever come to a majority consensus such as this. It is convincing.
Im thinking Lyfo logged at least 10 alts to forums to vote no.. but I am just a conspiracy theorist.0 -
Or the flawed design of the insane DPS of DDs.Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »Having to nerf your damage from even the most pro barbs with similar gear to yours is stupid and proves the flawed design of their aggro skills.0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Or the flawed design of the insane DPS of DDs.
The game is capped at 5.0 but our skills were not designed to scale to 5.0 for aggro, so yes flawed design of our aggro skills.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »1) You're a psychic. You aren't going to be able to tank the same things LA -int fist/claw archers are, nor BMs - and yes BMs that stack their -int are DDs and yes they are damned good tanks.
Read my post again. I'm pretty sure there's only one point in there where I even alluded to a BM dying. My complaints were more about aggro held by -APS not being as stable as that held by barbs, in my experience. I dunno why because I dunno how aggro is calculated, but unless we're talking about a top tier BM with really high -APS, then aggro is still snatchable for a Psy.2) You have to control your damage so you don't steal from a barb but you're apparently going to steal from a stacked -int user at 5APS? Ha ha ha. You're a joker.
Read my last post again. Pretty sure I said the BM needs HIGH APS to hold aggro. Never said I could steal from 5APS.The appropriate question is WTF is wrong with you. You have clearly never been in a squad where capable DDs have tanked (which means I assume you Oracle'd and Hyper'd your way into your levels because I have had plenty of experience with archer tanks, BM tanks and Sin tanks) and you clearly don't have a single clue what you're talking about.
Ja that's the way to react. I provide an opposing argument, so you should turn into a total bish. That's definitely how all good debates should be run.
My point was, and I don't mean that in an arrogant way, I probably have more experience pulling aggro than you, and because a Psy's neck is usually on the line before an Archer's neck, then perhaps I have a better appreciation for a classic barb tank.The good tank in this game is the guy/girl who can tank a boss and survive. Nowhere in that description is their a limit on class.
Just because you're a 93 psychic who can't tank worth a **** that doesn't mean you need to pretend no DD can tank, and just because you've never squadded with a real -int user with 5 APS triple sparked that doesn't mean you can pretend you're going to steal aggro off everything.
Kindly leave this thread, get a clue, and come back when you're more knowledgeable, kthnx.
Listen, I've tanked. Several times. And that as pure magic.
My point was more that I, as the highest DPS class for the majority of the game, have often run into instances where some person INSISTS they can out-do me aggro wise, and then when they don't, they end up getting our squad killed or causing little annoying bumps in the instance run. They either try TOO hard or don't control their damage in an attempt to out-do me or it's another class (BM or Sin) insisting we don't need a barb cause they can tank and hold aggro cause they have higher DPS than me. As I said before, pulling aggro off a sin or BM is an absolute pain, cause they can't grab aggro again as quickly as a barb.
So my point was more: Know your job. When you gave your speech about how DD's can tank and the above post about how Archers can tank, part of me wanted to cringe knowing that other players insisting they can tank is probably about as troublesome for the barb as it is for a Psy when other players insist they can hold aggro better.
You've obviously got some beef with barbs and you seem to think they're arrogant for thinking they're the only tanks. No, they simply know they're the best tanks. That's not arrogance; that's FACT. It's the same with when I say Psys have the best DPS for the majority of the game. I don't mean to be bragging or anything; I'm just stating what I know to be true based on hundreds of runs where I'm exclusively the only one pulling aggro on mobs.
So while I do think a BM with -int can tank and probably hold aggro, I simply say I'd feel much more safe behind a barb who has two skills programmed to help hold aggro. Instead, you're revelling in their loss of title as the best tank, seemingly calling Barbs arrogant for thinking they're the only tanks. Well, I've been called arrogant for saying I'll probably pull aggro or whatever, and again: I'm NOT trying to brag. I'm just stating a flippin' fact. I'm sure the barbs are doing the exact same thing when they say they should be tanking, so lighten up on them, will ya?I
AGOREY0 -
as the highest DPS class for the majority of the game
DPA.... not DPS...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
there is no insane damage output on psych
i think a lvl80 psych outdamages or at least aggros a lvl90+ wizard or cleric, as i encountered *aggro-dance* especially on water targets :P
(this is what clerics hate lol, constantly switching tanks on 1 boss >_>)
your aggression rate might be higher
but still not even a half (bow using) archer in terms of total damage
+lvl to 99 where magic dds become a non factor pve wise due to TT99 armory /end
just watch the time needed to kill a TT boss with certain squads b:surrender
i can boost psychs damage by spamming def debuffs by a fair amout similar to a jones blessing but that wont make them able to compete with dex classes
uh thats got like nothing to do with barbs xD
ps i only tank when everyone else capable of it is dead
its like HERE slow motion starts!i like potato0
![http://a.imageshack.us/img714/9433/testoz.jpg[/SIGPIC]](http://a.imageshack.us/img714/9433/testoz.jpg[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
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