double aggression on Flesh Ream /barb skills

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

One point I think is missed is that noone expects a barb with +3gear to hold aggro from a DD with +10. A barb should need similarly refined gear.

The other problem is that bosses are designed for average geared squads. +10, 5aps players typically have the gear to tank anything average barbs can.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

Archers_Soul - Lost City wrote: »

No. Let assassins tank. That's the logical and true way to solve the tank problem.

thats exactly whats happening




---
ohai

its your fault when ur gear is +10ed all over, and u get bored^^
there is no need to make stronger bosses, wich cant be killed by averange geared ppl

remember this game is Free to Play
you pay for easy mode, you get easy mode b:chuckle

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

DivineClaw - Raging Tide wrote: »

when i read this polls topic i really wanted to quit and start again as a bm but then i thought about it.first not every one is a cash shoper and not every one can get lunar claw +10 and even if he got those he ll need to spend more cash to get good armor to keep up with the bosses damage( no point in being a tank if you cant take the damage) .i dont think every end game bm can replace us .i think there are a few bms with high refined -int gear and +5 to +10 lunar claw .archers ,psychics and assassins can take aggro to but they wont stand the damage (unless with godly gear) .so im not quiting my barb and i still find barbs needed a lot on WC for tt/bh/gamma/delta and fc .the only bms that replace us are ones that CS a lot b:surrender.also i voted yes ,better aggro holding will make things easier b:victory

While I agree that we need more barbs with this kind of attitude, what I am saying here is true to some extent(depending on the people you meet and the factions you are in) and I hope that this has prepared you enough for whats to come in your end game.

I am not condemning tank barbs, I wouldn't be here without them. But the reality is, I feel that fixing aggro would not benefit them as much as ...making a much harder boss untankable by any other classes for example, in order to make them relevant in our gameplay again.

I think this would be my last post here, 90% of the posts in this thread are bragging(look at my 5aps and how barbs are useless, 5aps barbs or gtfo) or i-want-barbs-aggro-to-increase-and-then-what? kind of posts. There are only few suggestions in this thread as to how to fix this problem.

@Asterelle aggro scaling with refines has been suggested and frankly, I think its a good move if you want to increase a barb's aggro without introducing any damage increase. But as I said, I felt that the problems is bigger than that. Its not just the aggro, its the damage, the tank role(not roll) and other things that barb can do are so replaceable at end game.

@Hex you still cant guarantee a barb being wanted if their aggro is increased. x.x

Reshanta - Sanctuary

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Hex you still cant guarantee a barb being wanted if their aggro is increased. x.x

Thousands of psychics may think otherwise........(even those that mastered aggro control)

Oo_Rinoa_oO - Harshlands

i havent seen any BM who tanks full 3-3 yet though ive seen mass amount of BM who stole aggro and put into graves.

need of barb? i guess its huge.



oh, think of keeping this thread like no barb needed.
next new server will fail in oracles, cuz there exists no barb, then no BH, no FC till 9x, no GV.

get your mind fixed at hospital and respect barbs.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Making a boss untankable by any but barb is going to be a heck of a lot more difficult than people seem to make it out.

Barbs seems to prefer VIT sharding, while some BMs are sharding DEF. With the higher gears and refines, DEF will actually come out better for tanking purposes. And if the BM restats min req for weapon to increase VIT, they can pretty easily get the same level of survivability as a barb. Would have to nullify DEF boost, which would be its own kind of BS.

It would have to by hybrid boss most likely, since a pure physical would deal less damage to a BM anyways with phys marrow. And have it close to melee, so ranged don't simply tank the magic attacks from a safe distance.

With similar survivability, damage output with BP buff will also play a larger effect in survivability. And DEF lvl sharding essentially amps the effects of heals during a fight. Rendering it better to pretty much all but one shots, as charms would still be a major player in this boss if the drop is that good. And it would have to be a random, no build-up one shot or a fister could simply get the timing with sparking to be immune to it, or cancel.

There's alot more involved as well, but it would seem strange to go to all that effort of making such an exacting requirement for a boss' exact skill criteria just to end up hearing this, "Tank gets first pick."

Oo_Rinoa_oO - Harshlands wrote: »

oh, think of keeping this thread like no barb needed.
next new server will fail in oracles, cuz there exists no barb, then no BH, no FC till 9x, no GV.

Not sure how it was on your early servers, but on Sanctuary barb wasn't always the tank on FBs, because there wasn't one high enough lvl yet. We had BMs, wizzies, clerics, and venos who took their turns pulling tank duty on at level FBs. BHs are like a dumbed down version of that, so except for maybe BH69 there really shouldn't be an issue on the other BHs.

FCC and GV might see a renewed interest in sword path for Myriad Sword Stance to do them, as non-barb rebirths have been possible already; and claws are not the reason for that.

I really think most of the ideas to reintegrate barb's are not as thought through so as to make them viable. And if they make the barb indispensable, it will see a resurge of the selfish **** barbs that used to be all over. And losing them is not a bad thing.

Possibly might need to add new skills, like something that builds rage and causes a damage amp based off of rage built from skill use? Something that could be personal, making them great for any long lasting boss, or a smaller one that boosts group damage. Would also make the reward of the good barbs stand out from lazier ones, so there is incentive to more active playing. Personal increase would assist them in staying as tank, debuff type would assist in shortening the length of the battle.

EDIT: Should go without saying that the skill idea is based on the idea that claws become BM only, as otherwise clawbarbs would be even more powerful.

Oo_Rinoa_oO - Harshlands

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not sure how it was on your early servers, but on Sanctuary barb wasn't always the tank on FBs, because there wasn't one high enough lvl yet. We had BMs, wizzies, clerics, and venos who took their turns pulling tank duty on at level FBs. BHs are like a dumbed down version of that, so except for maybe BH69 there really shouldn't be an issue on the other BHs.

FCC and GV might see a renewed interest in sword path for Myriad Sword Stance to do them, as non-barb rebirths have been possible already; and claws are not the reason for that.

well, how many times have you been in a squad with "oh, we need barb" ?
and i wanna see any 8x FC with BM (or any class) pulling and running smooth.

and that GV, arent you talking about the delta with some nicely geared BM (well, ive seen no BM and Barb from PW-JP)?
i was talking about alpha, beta, gamma, that people could use to level up.
i dont think any BM at the level range of these can pull as barbs.


well, i know about 90% of pwi people are self-concerned and cant respect barbs while being taken care by them.
ive seen so many people who ask me to tank TTs and yet QQs on veno a lot for its solo ability.


saying barbs aint doing their designed job is like....
telling your mom and dad "oh, im adult now. thx for spending money for me, i dont need you now though, gtfo"

Danikovich - Heavens Tear

The solution is simple, balance -int gear, the -0.05 become -0.025 and the -0.10 become -0.05

haybails

I absolutely agree that Barb aggro should be increased. Sadly, I don't see that it is the sole solution. A two layer solution would be needed.

Boosting Barb aggro won't mean that other classes can't tank so a means of making it more of a risk for other classes to tank would need to be implemented too. Say, in instances only, if another class steals (or holds) aggro, they suffer some kind of 'shock' (Barbs immune to this) which reduces the dodge/defence of the character, thus meaning they take a good deal more damage. Scare the life out of the aggro stealer/holder and inevitably (unfortunate I know) the cleric... Make this scaled right between the classes for balance, such as that BM's shouldn't be on the edge as readily as some other classes, being pretty much as they are a hardy warrior class. Also, making it more complex, would be, to a point, mob (melee/magic) dependent of course!

With something like the combination above, at least the Barb could still have the chance of a role to play in the game, otherwise we have a dead (already dying) breed. b:sad

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Oo_Rinoa_oO - Harshlands wrote: »

i havent seen any BM who tanks full 3-3 yet though ive seen mass amount of BM who stole aggro and put into graves.

3-3 is pretty easy, any fist/claw BM with 8k-ish hp+ can tank 3-3. The only bosses that you might have a problem with if your hp were under 8k would be Emperor and Colluseast. Crystal Terror, the dex mat card boss in 3-3 pretty much needs a barb, or someone with 13-14khp+.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Making a boss untankable by any but barb is going to be a heck of a lot more difficult than people seem to make it out.

Not really hard at all. Like I mentioned, Crystal Terror pretty much requires a barb, so did Herzen Sori Demos, 1st lunar secret boss... but he was removed when they nerfed the instance.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

3-3 is pretty easy, any fist/claw BM with 8k-ish hp+ can tank 3-3. The only bosses that you might have a problem with if your hp were under 8k would be Emperor and Colluseast. Crystal Terror, the dex mat card boss in 3-3 pretty much needs a barb, or someone with 13-14khp+.




Not really hard at all. Like I mentioned, Crystal Terror pretty much requires a barb, so did Herzen Sori Demos, 1st lunar secret boss... but he was removed when they nerfed the instance.

8k unbuffed or buffed?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Ehh. This topic really only applies at 99+. Given how crappy 100+ PVE is I don't see why people care who tanks. Barbs are always appreciated for their buffs alone as well as all their support skills.

@rawrgh I was able to tank 3-3 when I had 10k buffed HP and I'm LA. Should be easier for BM

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

8k unbuffed or buffed?

Either. As long as you have over 8khp tank should be fine with two clerics. If the bm has horrible mdef, over 9khp would probably be better. With 10k hp I can tank either with one cleric.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Well, barbs can always spam devour for the 5 aps users, best pdef reduction skill in the game as far as I'm aware.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well, barbs can always spam devour for the 5 aps users, best pdef reduction skill in the game as far as I'm aware.

Demon Veno's Ironwood Scarab of 100% phys def reduction would like to have a word with you... (only 20% to land the debuff though)

Airyll - Dreamweaver

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon Veno's Ironwood Scarab of 100% phys def reduction would like to have a word with you... (only 20% to land the debuff though)

Don't forget their 79 Rainbow Myriad skills, although the chance of hitting the physical debuff all the time is naturally rather slim.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

whatever.. nobody will take barb to instance as buff monkey

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon Veno's Ironwood Scarab of 100% phys def reduction would like to have a word with you... (only 20% to land the debuff though)

Only 20% though. 50% pdef reduction 100% of the time > 100% pdef reduction 20% of the time.


I've gone to TTs before where BMs tank and my role was just to spam devour.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Only 20% though. 50% pdef reduction 100% of the time > 100% pdef reduction 20% of the time.


I've gone to TTs before where BMs tank and my role was just to spam devour.

and buff and cancel anything you can and rush certain parts for the squishies

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

and buff and cancel anything you can and rush certain parts for the squishies

while cleric debuff for 40%

and everyone can cancel with genies or just spark when genie is on cd



it s maybe not efficient like 50% devour or altracity, and barbs have attack buff - but it s not enough to waste slot in party. Better to get other 5 aps than buffer


sry but endgame pve is bit broken for barbs, they sure will get squads but not those best ones.

increasing aggro skills power will help in some way but wont fix problem.



i can understand frustration - i would be pissed too if f.e. 5aps bms would take sins with bloodpaint instead of clerics..

Traz - Dreamweaver

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

while cleric debuff for 40%

and everyone can cancel with genies or just spark when genie is on cd



it s maybe not efficient like 50% devour or altracity, and barbs have attack buff - but it s not enough to waste slot in party. Better to get other 5 aps than buffer


sry but endgame pve is bit broken for barbs, they sure will get squads but not those best ones.

increasing aggro skills power will help in some way but wont fix problem.



i can understand frustration - i would be pissed too if f.e. 5aps bms wouls take sins with bloodpaint instead of clerics..

You act like every squad can cover for a barb, they can't. You act like there are endless 5.0s out that you can get at a moments notice, you can't. I get into plenty of the "best" squads for the things I need.

truekossy

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You act like every squad can cover for a barb, they can't. You act like there are endless 5.0s out that you can get at a moments notice, you can't. I get into plenty of the "best" squads for the things I need.

This.


Sure, if everyone was able to run around at 5.0 and every squad was good enough, barbs wouldn't be able to do much... but the reality of things is that it isn't the case.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You act like every squad can cover for a barb, they can't. You act like there are endless 5.0s out that you can get at a moments notice, you can't. I get into plenty of the "best" squads for the things I need.

for bh?

Reality is that there will be more and more 5 aps people.


Also farming instances will be even less profitable for 'normal' squads. Uncanies price is low and will go lower. Cheaper golds mats already droped greatly while 2x (empire sigh is worth 10m in 1k, blazing wings 3.5m+ while u could buy them for 2m sic!)

So there wont be much sentiment for axe barbs. Just like with wizzes now - they can have decent gear, brag about frostblade buff - but everyone know how reality looks for them


And if cats would be able to tank at least (healing 20k barb is very comfortable, i love those) but ffs they cant even do that now



Tho you both are right - it s not like every barb should quit now :P

But you need to agree that demand for axe barbs is decreasing. Otherwise so many cats wouldnt restat to claws.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Just like with wizzes now - they can have decent gear, brag about frostblade buff - but everyone know how reality looks for them

Stop making it sound as if it's only bad now.... NOBODY EVER WANTED WIZES IN PARTIES AS DDS.

Only 20% though. 50% pdef reduction 100% of the time > 100% pdef reduction 20% of the time.

However you forgot that venos can also amp & purge & some ST for 20%... While barbs got what else? 20% to purge for a mere +40m at lvl 100?


I think it's kinda stupid trying to "limit" tanking to barbs.... So what venos will get an electrocute sesion each time they try for a tt? Or bms which were alwasy considered secondary tanks? Yes & wizes/psy/cleric/& their mamas tanking magic bosses is just wrong!!! Tanking was never just a barb thing... But thye were a safety cushion & taking anyther class worked in most cases but was considered risky & uncommon so a suggestion for a mage to tank 59 would most likely result in "OMG U MAD? WE NEED A BARB!".



It would be nice though if they modified some barb agro skills & not with the intention to tank against 5atkrates... but I want my afk time on auto-atk bk -.- can't even do that anymore; even when using slow as hell +5 xbow.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stop making it sound as if it's only bad now.... NOBODY EVER WANTED WIZES IN PARTIES AS DDS.

maybe it was bad example. Venos would be better i guess -if not proper geared (herc) then parties tend to pick other ones

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

However you forgot that venos can also amp & purge & some ST for 20%... While barbs got what else? 20% to purge for a mere +40m at lvl 100?

meh, dont even compare those. ..

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think it's kinda stupid trying to "limit" tanking to barbs.... So what venos will get an electrocute sesion each time they try for a tt? Or bms which were alwasy considered secondary tanks? Yes & wizes/psy/cleric/& their mamas tanking magic bosses is just wrong!!! Tanking was never just a barb thing... But thye were a safety cushion & taking anyther class worked in most cases but was considered risky & uncommon so a suggestion for a mage to tank 59 would most likely result in "OMG U MAD? WE NEED A BARB!".

yea, but we are getting to the point where nothingis left to tank for barb lol


devs should also add new content where you would really need barb. Something bit harder than nirvana that could be done by 80s squads if they would be able to open it..


TT 4-x where bosses cannot be tanked by someone with HP under 12-14k =P

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

It would be nice though if they modified some barb agro skills & not with the intention to tank against 5atkrates... but I want my afk time on auto-atk bk -.- can't even do that anymore; even when using slow as hell +5 xbow.

that dont bother me too much actually b:chuckle

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

yea, but we are getting to the point where nothingis left to tank for barb lol


devs should also add new content where you would really need barb. Something bit harder than nirvana that could be done by 80s squads if they would be able to open it..


TT 4-x where bosses cannot be tanked by someone with HP under 12-14k =P

I've seen a lot of BMs with more HP than that.

truekossy

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

devs should also add new content where you would really need barb. Something bit harder than nirvana that could be done by 80s squads if they would be able to open it..


TT 4-x where bosses cannot be tanked by someone with HP under 12-14k =P

And then the BMs just refine their gear and restat to min str/dex for weaps and rest in vit.

Not like we don't already have cash shoppers who break 12k without a sweat. If the game ever got to the point where everyone was in +10 (or higher) gear, barbs would basically be obsolete as tanks for PvE. It's just becoming more obvious now that we have so many people powered by packs and reaching goals that, a year o two ago, would've been considered impossible.

Asheera - Raging Tide

truekossy wrote: »

And then the BMs just refine their gear and restat to min str/dex for weaps and rest in vit.

Not like we don't already have cash shoppers who break 12k without a sweat. If the game ever got to the point where everyone was in +10 (or higher) gear, barbs would basically be obsolete as tanks for PvE. It's just becoming more obvious now that we have so many people powered by packs and reaching goals that, a year o two ago, would've been considered impossible.

Well nothing to do much with the thread but yeah the reason Nirvana is so easy and most other content is that maybe they balanced for +1 or +2 gear.

If you make bosses too hard that you need +10 gear with a BARB tanking, then a lot many more ppl will QQ about the too high difficulty, than the ones QQing about being too easy now. And not to mention devs want their content explored by as many people as possible and not just a few uber geared ones I bet.

volst

Just give barbs a skill that resets everyone's aggro (except there own). Maybe a barb only genie skill that debuffs someone with aggro reset.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

volst wrote: »

Just give barbs a skill that resets everyone's aggro (except there own). Maybe a barb only genie skill that debuffs someone with aggro reset.

They have a skill that does exactly that called Flesh Ream lol. That doesnt mean the archer/bm/sin cant get aggro back in half a second..