double aggression on Flesh Ream /barb skills

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear

if u saw my very first post (and even second) on this thread, u'll see the suggestions that I already gave..and they r pretty simple too.

Edit : I gave one suggestion of making the bosses in instances hit as hard as those in Warsong. Sum1 objected to it by saying that not all barbs can afford high refines or event gear & stuff. But I myself am a non-cashshopping barb with a decent tt90-99 gear which I farmed bit-by-bit & with no money used. Also, Warsong bosses do a max of 5.5-6k & sumtimes 6.5k dmg. a 15k+ hp barb (not my hp)should be able to do the tanking work easily (assuming clerics do their job right too). Also, I'd openly say, any barb that hasnt got ATLEAST 15k at lvl 100...has messedup himself (thats only way I could put it 'nicely'). Also, increasing the Damage (not referring to aggro here) on Barb's tiger form skills will help too. If u have a look at all tiger form skills...they just suck totally bad compared to other melees. Now yeah, sum1 might argue saying why do barbs need dmg, they were desinged to be the tanks. THATS another point here...the same people who say barbs r nomore the end-game tanks might acknowledge thats barbs r a tank class..and if Barbs ARE a tank class, then why dont they deserve that status end-game too? Tell me, if these int/claws thing wasnt discovered...would've people taken BMs everytime for 'tanking '& ignored barbs on end-game TTs & Lunar & other such runs? the event fcukedup things for barbs upto the point that they r now forced to reroll Claw/Fists inspite of NOT able to use their skills with those weapons..just to remain competitive in today's cashshoppers' pwi.

Like I mentioned earlier twice, Flesh Ream - the TANK's main skill- gets maxed at lvl 54...isnt that stupid? The aggro/threat lvl really need to get fixed on barb's skill..taking them back to their class' primary role..and that is, to tank

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Having a Barb since beta stages of pw, lemme give u a bit of insight abt the BM class. BM class was made to use a variety of skills/weapons & were primarily a Dmg Dealing Class, And a Secondary Tank class. they used to (and r supposed to) wear LA gear to have a kin of "balance" between their Mag & Phy Defenses. They were NEVER meant to be the main tank class at end-game. But since every game evolves/adapts to better stuff...few people started wearing HA gear for more HP from better refines which HA gives ("End-game" was 80-90 then). Since then, (and since they could use HA effectively) almost every1 started using HA & now the guides of BM forums instruct the new players playing BMs to use HA gear. Ofc, the anni packs came & fcukedup balance between classes later on. Then sum1 discovered the end-game dmg from stacked int & claws, and thus spread the madness abt Claws..which were considered as the most crappiest of wep choice among the BMs b4.

So your saying that people who played BMs before PWI for years and used HA from the start didn't use the class as "supposed"? If you say yes, stop posting. If you say no, then what? I agree with the rest of your post, but hearing that BM was "made" to use LA is just wrong.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...
One thing I'll like to suggest in case Devs dont care abt giving us better aggro-holding skills is that, Make all the end-game bosses atleast a bit hard. Make every boss in each instance hit as hard as the bosses in Warsong do.

This idea can work, but it'll need some fine-tuning. Make the bosses too hard, regular barbs can't tank, making the bosses too easy, BM can still replace you. Normally, once an instance is released, there won't be any changes to it. What you want now is something like the previous FC or old lunar.

However, from my personal point of view, asking this to be implemented is a little selfish of the barbs. It allows barbs to demand for stuff like first pick or a free hp charm(not saying all barbs would abuse this, but....)

And like what I have mentioned, 1 step forward(barbs should be more popular as tank now), 2 steps backward ( barbs can abuse this, and DDs cannot maximise damage output)

Also, another thing to consider, how would a fist barb fit into this? If the fist barbs can tank, and the other 5 aps cant, its creating another problem.

Just my 2 cents.

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

So your saying that people who played BMs before PWI for years and used HA from the start didn't use the class as "supposed"? If you say yes, stop posting. If you say no, then what? I agree with the rest of your post, but hearing that BM was "made" to use LA is just wrong.

if ya ever saw players in the few months since the commercial launch of pwi, they used to wear LA..coz it provided about same/equal amount of magical/physical defenses. But later on the trend changed after few people(read BMs specifically) which were in that time's "end-game" lvls of 80-90 started using HA gear coz it provided better refines than LA. and since they could do better with higher phy def & slightly lesser mag def, it became the norm for BMs to use HA. (nowhere saying BMs shouldnt use HA..just stated a fact)

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

if ya ever saw players in the few months since the commercial launch of pwi, they used to wear LA..coz it provided about same/equal amount of magical/physical defenses. But later on the trend changed after few people which were in that time's "end-game" lvls of 80-90 started using HA gear coz it provided better refines than LA. and since they could do better with higher phy def & slightly lesser mag def, it became the norm for BMs to use HA. (nowhere saying BMs shouldnt use HA..just stated a fact)

Basically, most BMs just failed in their armor choice. You can call it "the dark ages". Lyndura bashing fists and BMs using LA. To think that in China, years before this, people already understood it all.

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However, from my personal point of view, asking this to be implemented is a little selfish of the barbs. It allows barbs to demand for stuff like first pick or a free hp charm(not saying all barbs would abuse this, but....)

And like what I have mentioned, 1 step forward(barbs should be more popular as tank now), 2 steps backward ( barbs can abuse this, and DDs cannot maximise damage output)

Dont just blame it on the barbs...that 'system' was designed by every1 in the old days...and people just followed it upto this day. Dont say the barbs will get arrogant & demand first pick coz of it. If u do think so, make it clear how the split is gonna be at the very start of the run. There's nothing selfish about it

about ur last para, what makes ya think barbs will "abuse" it? its their JOB to be the tank, if sum DD just likes to steal aggro only for fun..then he deserves to die

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

this paragraph kinda screams infinite aggro to me, so I had to address it, somehow.

I guess you have selective reading.

I still think that a barb with lvl 11 aggro skills should be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game though. They should indeed have a skill that can always hold aggro... that's kind of the point of a tanking class, and at end-game, that should be an almost guaranteed trait

I'll clarify my thoughts for you.

I think if an end-game barb, (defining end-game to be well geared and with their lvl 11 skills,) is to just sit there and spam their skills, yes, they should be able to hold aggro on a ? mob, even from 5aps users as long as they are not permasparked.

A barb has never been a DD class, (with the exception of fist/claw users who can't even use their skills, which turns them into DD class not a tanking class,) their role has been to hold aggro so other people can DD. This is true in most mmos. Their job is to hold aggro and tank. They can no longer do this.

A barb's aggro skills should be increased. Whether or not it's a straight up doubling (messy solution) to having it scale with their weapon grade and refines WITHOUT increasing damage would be far more desirable. Threat generation as it is now, for Barbs, is not based on damage, but based on the skill itself and the effect of damage dealt by the tank is negligible in the case of generating threat and holding aggro. This needs to be fixed. The mechanics need to be fixed. Almost all the other solutions in this thread are beyond ridiculous or just plain stupid.


I haven't posted in this thread in the last couple of days because you and others are guilty of making the most unrealistic and horribly stupid suggestions on how to fix a rather simple problem. Way to blow off the real issue and troll the rest. It's apparent that you would just as soon have PWI delete all barbs and pretend they never existed. b:bye

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This idea can work, but it'll need some fine-tuning. Make the bosses too hard, regular barbs can't tank, making the bosses too easy, BM can still replace you. Normally, once an instance is released, there won't be any changes to it. What you want now is something like the previous FC or old lunar.

There are currently no bosses that are too hard. Unless you want to consider Harpy Wraith or Sonic Oppressor, or maybe one or two other world bosses, but they're still defeatable.

As for bringing back old Lunar or old Frost? Yes please.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

hey michael

its me, what i do is always messy b:cute




my original thought was a EASY TASK for those who can change game files :P

Marista - Lost City

Sonic Oppressor? That's not hard. We've done it with one squad, with LordKazahana (Bm) as the tank. Sure, it took a while with the random agro oneshotting the other dds, but it wasn't that big a deal....

On topic: I see no reason to give barbs more agro skills. There's no reason for them to hold agro at this point, and after all the stupid babying they used to get, I'd be quite happy to see them made effectively useless for the role. They had their day, and now it's done.

fulgida

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

A barb has never been a DD class, (with the exception of fist/claw users who can't even use their skills, which turns them into DD class not a tanking class,) their role has been to hold aggro so other people can DD. This is true in most mmos. Their job is to hold aggro and tank. They can no longer do this.

Maybe if they were built for aggro, rather than for soaking damage, they could hold aggro.

(Strength build demon barbs can generate all sorts of aggro, for example.)

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Marista - Lost City wrote: »

Sonic Oppressor? That's not hard. We've done it with one squad, with LordKazahana (Bm) as the tank. Sure, it took a while with the random agro oneshotting the other dds, but it wasn't that big a deal....

Oh yeah, I know it's easy in one sense... I can tank him, but I don't want to. Most people *don't* do Sonic Oppressor cause he does one shot a lot of people. Kind of a waste of time and dolls. People only do him cause none of the other bosses are usually up.

On topic: I see no reason to give barbs more agro skills. There's no reason for them to hold agro at this point, and after all the stupid babying they used to get, I'd be quite happy to see them made effectively useless for the role. They had their day, and now it's done.

At least you're honest. b:victory

fulgida wrote: »

Maybe if they were built for aggro, rather than for soaking damage, they could hold aggro.

(Strength build demon barbs can generate all sorts of aggro, for example.)

They were built for holding aggro. But with enough +10 orb sales and enough event gear, they've lost that ability because their threat generating skills haven't scaled as has the release of newer gear. The new gear does nothing to help them generate threat, with the exception of going fist/claw.

Bartack - Heavens Tear

Ya, so for those of you just coming in or catching up to the drama of this thread, here is a refresher of the main problems being theoretically solved for our own peace of minds only (because no one is going to read this thread and say 'AHA lets change the game like THAT'). b:pleased

FIRST BIG PROBLEM

Anyway, barb aggro skills fail to scale with changes to game in terms of available damage output. Barbs sit comfortably on the bottom of the DD scale (sans fist-barb) so DD aggro is a no-go.

We have one reliable aggro skill that hits level 10 VERY early in game, and the level 11 version does not seem to keep up. Other aggro skills fail to adequately support, and have problems of their own when used. IE: Devour reduces targets defense, allowing DD's to create even more hate. Roar resets aggro, and generates little. 79 skill generates way too little, and not usable in tiger form.b:cry

My best solution? Have aggro amount generated by skills calculated out in skill description, much like spell damage is. IE: 'Flesh ream deals base physical damage, causes target to bleed X damage over 15 seconds. Forces aggression of target on caster, causing X units of hate' and here is my big contribution 'and an additional X% of weapon damage converted to hate'.

Did ya see that? How it not only now explains the amount of aggresion generated, the formula for it AND how I added a scaling component? b:victory
Yes folks a scaling aggro component added to skills makes barbs still need to keep up with DD gear-wise, but not have to out DD them for aggro. We can still be tanks. Yay.

SECOND PROBLEM

Even if we can hold aggro and tank, party no longer needs us taking up a DD slot. We are rendered obsolete (for the most part if not entirely) by gear. Others have mentioned the idea of making bosses/instances harder, so I wont go into that.

Unfortunately, we do happen to come around to that old 800 pound gorilla in the room. Yep, -int fist is over powered. Its as plain as that. Argue if you must, but if you have a weapon class so strong that more than half the classes in the game yearn to equip it because it makes them more powerful than the gear they have skills for, OP. Well, fists AND daggers, but sins are sort of an op weapon class of themselves.b:surrender

Will -int ever be fixed? Will PWI ever stop selling packs?...No...I very much doubt it due to it being a bit of a cash-cow. Face it, 5aps aint cheap folks, and the seductive lure of about half a servers population scrambling over themselves to throw cash at the game and snatch it up like an iphone4 on launch day is just too danged irresistible.

But I still say cap max aps to 3.33. I like that number. LAUNCH THE QQ MISSILES!!! MWAHAHAHAH!!! Anyway, I say that or turn -int gear to +attack rate gear, such as: change 'interval between hit -.10 seconds' to '+.10 attacks per second'. But believe me, while that option scales better between weapons, its much harsher to fists than the first option.

Either way still lets BM's and whoever tank, but with the, oh-I-don't know...INFINITE AGGRO THEY HAVE NOW? Now I know 5aps aggro is not technically infinite, but when your DD aggro is that high and all other DD classes can go crazy to their 'full potential' without fear of being squished by boss...wasn't that a previously mentioned way to 'break the game'?

One last paice here, someone scoffed at another post about bleed on Flesh Ream having NOTHING to do with aggro...I just cant let that go. Bleed damage has several effect on aggro. Each tick of bleed damage counts aggro-wise as a 'hit' (add very small amount of aggro) plus aggro generated by bleed damage (add a little more aggro, not a lot, but a little) and the absense of aggro decay-over-time that DOT skills negate, and the bleed on Flesh Ream (and sunder too) begins to make sense as to why its there. Oh well, its sort of a moot point at the moment considering the topic of this thread.

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear

Marista - Lost City wrote: »

On topic: I see no reason to give barbs more agro skills. There's no reason for them to hold agro at this point, and after all the stupid babying they used to get, I'd be quite happy to see them made effectively useless for the role. They had their day, and now it's done.

Make a seperate thread for people like u who got a similar view regarding barbs. This thread is to discuss the problems related to barbs' aggro skills & it'll be better if barb-haters like u will stay out of it if u dont have any contructive thing to say.

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

One last paice here, someone scoffed at another post about bleed on Flesh Ream having NOTHING to do with aggro...I just cant let that go. Bleed damage has several effect on aggro. Each tick of bleed damage counts aggro-wise as a 'hit' (add very small amount of aggro) plus aggro generated by bleed damage (add a little more aggro, not a lot, but a little) and the absense of aggro decay-over-time that DOT skills negate, and the bleed on Flesh Ream (and sunder too) begins to make sense as to why its there. Oh well, its sort of a moot point at the moment considering the topic of this thread.

it was me buddy in an earlier post saying the thing abt Bleed, but actually stated that aggro on Flesh Ream isnt related to the bleed dmg. Ofc Bleed DOES help in regards to aggro..but the dmg done bleed efect isnt that much in current scenario. Same with Sunder + the fact that it takes 2 sparks, & is not a 'reliable' skill in End-Game squads in end-game instances. b:thanksb:surrender Its more related to the aggro mechanics behind FR that helps generate higher threat lvl for barbs..not the bleed on it

Dsholder - Dreamweaver

How can you say increasing aggro of a Barb would break the game when you suggest a barbarian change to a weapon that was designed for a blademaster? A Barbarian can't use his skills with a claw and isn't meant to be using claws. Barbarians where designed to take the hits off of other players in instances. You know what I see fist barbs asking in World Chat? I see them asking for Tank barbs to pull Delta for them and that's pathetic because they have broken their own class.

Skinnard - Lost City

Dsholder - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How can you say increasing aggro of a Barb would break the game when you suggest a barbarian change to a weapon that was designed for a blademaster? A Barbarian can't use his skills with a claw and isn't meant to be using claws. Barbarians where designed to take the hits off of other players in instances. You know what I see fist barbs asking in World Chat? I see them asking for Tank barbs to pull Delta for them and that's pathetic because they have broken their own class.

1. who does full rb anymore

2. what barb uses claws in rb

Traz - Dreamweaver

Skinnard - Lost City wrote: »

1. who does full rb anymore

2. what barb uses claws in rb

1. Me

2. Let us pray

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ya, so for those of you just coming in or catching up to the drama of this thread, here is a refresher of the main problems being theoretically solved for our own peace of minds only (because no one is going to read this thread and say 'AHA lets change the game like THAT'). b:pleased

FIRST BIG PROBLEM

Anyway, barb aggro skills fail to scale with changes to game in terms of available damage output. Barbs sit comfortably on the bottom of the DD scale (sans fist-barb) so DD aggro is a no-go.

We have one reliable aggro skill that hits level 10 VERY early in game, and the level 11 version does not seem to keep up. Other aggro skills fail to adequately support, and have problems of their own when used. IE: Devour reduces targets defense, allowing DD's to create even more hate. Roar resets aggro, and generates little. 79 skill generates way too little, and not usable in tiger form.b:cry

My best solution? Have aggro amount generated by skills calculated out in skill description, much like spell damage is. IE: 'Flesh ream deals base physical damage, causes target to bleed X damage over 15 seconds. Forces aggression of target on caster, causing X units of hate' and here is my big contribution 'and an additional X% of weapon damage converted to hate'.

Did ya see that? How it not only now explains the amount of aggresion generated, the formula for it AND how I added a scaling component? b:victory
Yes folks a scaling aggro component added to skills makes barbs still need to keep up with DD gear-wise, but not have to out DD them for aggro. We can still be tanks. Yay.

SECOND PROBLEM

Even if we can hold aggro and tank, party no longer needs us taking up a DD slot. We are rendered obsolete (for the most part if not entirely) by gear. Others have mentioned the idea of making bosses/instances harder, so I wont go into that.

Unfortunately, we do happen to come around to that old 800 pound gorilla in the room. Yep, -int fist is over powered. Its as plain as that. Argue if you must, but if you have a weapon class so strong that more than half the classes in the game yearn to equip it because it makes them more powerful than the gear they have skills for, OP. Well, fists AND daggers, but sins are sort of an op weapon class of themselves.b:surrender

Will -int ever be fixed? Will PWI ever stop selling packs?...No...I very much doubt it due to it being a bit of a cash-cow. Face it, 5aps aint cheap folks, and the seductive lure of about half a servers population scrambling over themselves to throw cash at the game and snatch it up like an iphone4 on launch day is just too danged irresistible.

But I still say cap max aps to 3.33. I like that number. LAUNCH THE QQ MISSILES!!! MWAHAHAHAH!!! Anyway, I say that or turn -int gear to +attack rate gear, such as: change 'interval between hit -.10 seconds' to '+.10 attacks per second'. But believe me, while that option scales better between weapons, its much harsher to fists than the first option.

Either way still lets BM's and whoever tank, but with the, oh-I-don't know...INFINITE AGGRO THEY HAVE NOW? Now I know 5aps aggro is not technically infinite, but when your DD aggro is that high and all other DD classes can go crazy to their 'full potential' without fear of being squished by boss...wasn't that a previously mentioned way to 'break the game'?

One last paice here, someone scoffed at another post about bleed on Flesh Ream having NOTHING to do with aggro...I just cant let that go. Bleed damage has several effect on aggro. Each tick of bleed damage counts aggro-wise as a 'hit' (add very small amount of aggro) plus aggro generated by bleed damage (add a little more aggro, not a lot, but a little) and the absense of aggro decay-over-time that DOT skills negate, and the bleed on Flesh Ream (and sunder too) begins to make sense as to why its there. Oh well, its sort of a moot point at the moment considering the topic of this thread.

This is much better than your first post, I can see nothing wrong with having a scaling increasing aggro (instead of a static increasing aggro like what this thread title suggests)
The question is, what kinda scaling would be necessary? Scaling with weapon damage, weapon refine or even scaling with level is something to be considered. Also, how far can you go with this scaling. Does it allow a +12 nirvana axe to hold aggro against a +12 warsoul dagger sin with 5aps(or close to 5 aps)? Thats another point to consider.

About your 2nd point, 3.33aps or 5 aps, people will stll go for the high dps DDs. Your "solution" might not do anything to the 2nd problem, just making DD tanks take a longer time killing bosses.

However, I would like to say that, like what some people have mentioned, nerfing something in game is kinda rare(they would rather buff everyone else in order to avoid mass QQs).

Bleed is a DoT making it kinda hard to be used as something to hold aggro with. I would rather not consider it at all.

Either way still lets BM's and whoever tank, but with the, oh-I-don't know...INFINITE AGGRO THEY HAVE NOW? Now I know 5aps aggro is not technically infinite, but when your DD aggro is that high and all other DD classes can go crazy to their 'full potential' without fear of being squished by boss...wasn't that a previously mentioned way to 'break the game'?

This is kinda off from what I had in mind. The reason why I said a static amount of aggro added will not solve the problem is there are 2 extremes of barbs not able to hold aggro. Regular 90+ barb vs 3 aps BM and end game barb with +12 nirvana vs 5aps DD with high refines. If you add too little aggro, only the bottom group will benefit, the problem will still be there when you reach end game with high refines 5aps DDs. If you add too much(like infinite aggro), you break the aggro mechanics. So my conclusion is, there is no "right amount of aggro" to add. Making aggro scale would be a much better idea than what the OP of this thread can come up with.

The reason why I even brought up static aggro increase is the thread title. No one has ever defined anything up there, and reading it just like that gave me the impression of adding a static amount of aggro to the barb's skill.

And also, the reason why I kept talking about fist barbs is it is the only thing right now that you can do in game to keep up with others. Yes, I am trying to tell you not to rely on this thread and whatever good suggestions it have, because it takes time to update, find the solution and even identifying the problem. The fix can come tomorrow, the fix can come next year, or even 50 years from now. It is good that you want the game to do something about it, but what you can do now is restat to fist(If you don't like the idea, and would like to wait for the fix, it is your choice)(I am not advocating fist barbs in any way, just letting you know of another option to take right now)

@ Dsholder. Read and maybe youll find the answer. Increasing aggro is such a vague idea(it can even mean giving infinite aggro). About fists being the Bm's weapon and not archers or barb's intended weapon, if a weapon is not class locked, it's fair game. I suppose you'll start to KOS every single fist archers then if you hate fists barb that much?

If I truly hate barb, I would do something like Marista. Something short and I dont need to try to clarify anything I have written. "Let barbs be useless" lol

@fulgida A tank barb's true asset lies in the fact that they have much more hp and defense than a regular DD. Saying that barbs should concentrate more in aggro holding is exactly what fist barbs are doing, they are sacrificing the ability to tank harder bosses(think Delta).

@Micheal

show me the unrealistic ideas then.

I dont know why you dont want barbs to hold aggro vs perma sparked 5 aps.

This is a rather simple problem? PWI is not even treating it as a problem lol.

Also at your point of saying aggros does not depend on damage for barbs. I can agree with you that the amount of aggro from flesh ream(high) might not compare to aggro from a barb's damage(low) but every source of aggro counts. And it works, this is how fist barbs hold aggro. It is something that has been proven.

And your last point there, I would say its hard to draw the line between whats tankable by only barbs and whats tankable by 5 aps DDs, making the suggestion of barb specific bosses hard to implement. But think back to the time when you need a barb to tank TTs and all other lower level instances. what is the reason behind wanting a barb in the squad?

Btw, you still have not said anything about the real problem here. Even if a barb's aggro is increased, why would other people still want barbs in high aps squads with someone who can tank? Or are you fine with things as they are. Let barbs be capable of holding aggro, their popularity as tanks in farming instances(like TT or Lunar) should not be considered in this thread at all.

Also, barbs can still hold aggro in squads without high aps DDs(in other words, wizzies, clerics, non-fist venos and psychics).

Traz - Dreamweaver

Why the hell are you kids still babbling on about this topic? Aggro is broken and it needs fixed.

/end thread

Veins - Dreamweaver

Or another idea (I don't know if it's been posted, I haven't read all 38 friggin' pages), is to have something set up similar to soulforce, barb-specific, where your refines govern the amount of aggro you generate and maintain. This would work perfectly in terms of scaling, especially since it would give barbs another incentive to refine their armor better, and wouldn't necessarily depend on refining an axe up to +10 (which isn't working regardless, obviously).

Bartack - Heavens Tear

Should a barb w +12 axes be able to hold aggro against same grade weapon at same refine level? Absolutely. That's the whole point in having aggro skills verses high damage aggro. And if devs continue to keep -int gear as it is, skills should be able to compensate for that too. (We all know by now I would rather -int was dealt with) Barbs should at least be capable of performing their role as tank even if not always needed as one.

As to all you 5aps fist users who don't like the idea of a speed nerf, what happens when more 'end game' gear is released should it contain more -int? You have the sweet spot at 5aps, but more -int isn't going to help you guys. What happens if/when other weapons hit 4+ aps? Game gets too easy. What about scaleing weapon damage on slower weapons to compensate? Again, game gets too easy.

My first post simply talked about letting barbs use skills w all melee weapons. I still like that idea.

Also as to all the dd's tanking, how about releasing some shards/stones that increase damage by a fair extent with a negative defensive side effect?

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also as to all the dd's tanking, how about releasing some shards/stones that increase damage by a fair extent with a negative defensive side effect?

Then people just wouldn't use those.

My original rule still applies: "never nerf, just buff". Buffing something doesn't get that much QQ compared to nerfing. If barbs can tank as well as or even better than 5 aps character (minus the damage part), they can get to any squad they want. If you completely destroy the int gear, the money flow for the company won't be as big as it is now. Why shoot your own leg? And honestly, capping the attack speed to 3.33 (or anything over 2 for that matter) still won't make barbs the "best" tanks. Those days are over; the thing we should be looking here is "tanking class that can hold aggro better than any other class and have the best buffs for tanking, but may not be able to deal as much damage as a DD tank". Basically, what it was before but now people know that DDs can tank as well.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Jesus God almighty man... you need to learn how to be concise. Half of what you've written is obviously there to satisfy your need to ramble rather than making clear and simple points.

I hate to sound like an English teacher, but cut the filler. I feel like I'm reading a one paragraph essay stretched to fit 1000 words. b:surrender

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Micheal

show me the unrealistic ideas then.

People are suggesting nerfing interval, giving barbs more damage, just ignoring them because nobody wants them anyway... those are the unrealistic ideas that people are dribbling on and on about.j

I dont know why you dont want barbs to hold aggro vs perma sparked 5 aps.

I never freaking said that.

...

This is a rather simple problem? PWI is not even treating it as a problem lol.

Also at your point of saying aggros does not depend on damage for barbs. I can agree with you that the amount of aggro from flesh ream(high) might not compare to aggro from a barb's damage(low) but every source of aggro counts. And it works, this is how fist barbs hold aggro. It is something that has been proven.

You don't differentiate between threat/hate and aggro. They're two separate things. If I have to explain the difference to you, you shouldn't even be participating in this discussion.

And your last point there, I would say its hard to draw the line between whats tankable by only barbs and whats tankable by 5 aps DDs, making the suggestion of barb specific bosses hard to implement. But think back to the time when you need a barb to tank TTs and all other lower level instances. what is the reason behind wanting a barb in the squad?

Also, barbs can still hold aggro in squads without high aps DDs(in other words, wizzies, clerics, non-fist venos and psychics).

I've already said this, not every BM wants to tank everything at the same time. You get so lost in your long-winded posts filled with blabber that you completely mis-quote and take what I've said out of context.

Btw, you still have not said anything about the real problem here. Even if a barb's aggro is increased, why would other people still want barbs in high aps squads with someone who can tank? Or are you fine with things as they are. Let barbs be capable of holding aggro, their popularity as tanks in farming instances(like TT or Lunar) should not be considered in this thread at all.

OK, who are you to dictate to me what the real problem here is? The real problem here is that threat generation by barbs does not scale with many of the other classes at end game.

Fact: Barbs cannot hold aggro against the latest generation of +10 lunar and nirvana geared archers, sins, bms, mages, etc... which have largely become 'standard' around these parts.

The threat/hate generation of an end-game barb with end-game gear and refines with lvl 11 skills does not scale to that of many other classes. This needs to be directly addressed.

Your solution? To throw barbs away, or to make people use crappy gear?

Just.. wow. /headspin

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I think if an end-game barb, (defining end-game to be well geared and with their lvl 11 skills,) is to just sit there and spam their skills, yes, they should be able to hold aggro on a ? mob, even from 5aps users as long as they are not permasparked. yea you freaking never said that, clarify your sentence lol

But who are you to say that those ideas are unrealistic? 1 opinion does not matter.
Aggro = hate/threat level for me. Define it if you wana talk about it. Ive said that aggro is the amount of damage a DD can deal before taking aggro. You can always walk out if you cannot talk to me lol.

Show me something ive taken out of context then.
And I said 5 aps DDs, and not BMs, stop taking my words out of context.

OK, who are you to dictate to me what the real problem here is? never tried, im just saying PWI is not looking at this a s a problem, im not even asking you about what is the problem hereThe real problem here is that threat generation by barbs does not scale with many of the other classes at end game.

Fact: Barbs cannot hold aggro against the latest generation of +10 lunar and nirvana geared archers, sins, bms, mages, etc... which have largely become 'standard' around these parts.agreed

The threat/hate generation of an end-game barb with end-game gear and refines with lvl 11 skills does not scale to that of many other classes.agreed too This needs to be directly addressed.directly addressed? how? i can say the same general things like barbs should be able to hold aggro vs similar refined DDs, or barbs should be tanks again, or even every class has a role, you are avoiding the topic here

Your solution? To throw barbs away, or to make people use crappy gear?i didnt say thats a solution, solutions ive mentioned are in the posts before this. and you are still avoiding the topic. what makes you think that by making barbs able to hold aggro, that other people will use barbs in squad? and i certainly didnt say anything about throwing barbs away, or making people use crappy gear(whatever this mean lol)

all im asking is, what is going to happen to barbs after they can hold aggro?


Just.. wow. /headspin

replies in red
b:pleased

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why the hell are you kids still babbling on about this topic? Aggro is broken and it needs fixed.

/end thread

Yea, it needs to be fixed.

How?

And even after fixing aggro, what happens? Will barbs be the popular tanks again? Or things will remain as they are now, DDs being the tank?

I'm have been repeating this alot of times. Or do you simply dont care what happens to barbs after they can hold aggro? Then why increase the aggro in the first place?

Veins - Dreamweaver

@Lylfo

Whether or not fixing aggro will make people want to bring a barb is completely irrelevant; there's a clear issue and it needs resolution.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Veins - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Lylfo

Whether or not fixing aggro will make people want to bring a barb is completely irrelevant; there's a clear issue and it needs resolution.

If you say that, what is making this an issue then? Why do you want barbs to be able to hold aggro?

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the original tank class cant tank anymore with current damage dealers


a small modification to aggression would make all Axe-barbs happy (and clerics) b:cute



this is only a High-lvl issue,
if you just power up the sage and demon versions... ... that would help







i didnt post this in suggestion box for some reason dont move plz^^

Here read the first post. Tell me, how irrelevant is my concern? Do you want to fix aggro for the sake of fixing aggro?

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you say that, what is making this an issue then? Why do you want barbs to be able to hold aggro?

That you can do runs with friends where you can be sure you can keep aggro without needing to hold back too much.

Veins - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you say that, what is making this an issue then? Why do you want barbs to be able to hold aggro?

It's the role the class was designed for. The reason they have an HP buff, more HP in tiger form, the most HP per vitality, the best armor typing....

Whether or not people would rather bring a DD who can tank instead of a barb is completely irrelevant to the concept of "are aggro skills broken?" Your argument, in its entirety, is "who cares?" And if you look at the poll, over 90% of the people who voted care. That's a pretty overwhelming majority.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Lylfo, just please, give it up. It's getting painful to read.

Firstly, Michael never said he wanted barbs to have infinite threat generation, nor did he say he wanted them to be able to hold aggro against a permasparked 5aps DD. In fact, the opposite. A permasparked 5aps DD should be able to generate more threat then anything else in this entire game in the shortest amount of time, meaning that even a barbarian should not be able to take aggro from them, nor keep it from them.

Secondly. Threat =/= aggro. Threat and hate is what generate aggro.
Aggression = the person the monster is attacking. Aggro changes when somebody else builds up more threat/hate than the current person who has aggro. At this point, the monster turns around and attacks the person who has now generated the most amount of threat, thus meaning the new person now has aggro. See the difference?
Threat = what causes a monster to attack somebody
Aggro = the person who has generated the most threat out of the entire squad

People regularly confuse these two terms, but they are not the same.

Thirdly, people want this issue fixed because it's an issue and because it needs to be fixed. Clearly my analogy earlier in the thread went ignored by you, when I pointed out how very flawed your thinking on this issue is. So, let's try again.

Let's say that level 11 cleric healing skills just didn't heal any more because everybody with +10 gear with 4 vit stones in it could heal themselves better than a cleric. (Yes I know they technically can't, but the point is I'm trying to get you to realise why you're argument is so wrong.) According to your own arguments, this means cleric healing skills shouldn't be fixed. No, it just means clerics should have better gear themselves or that the people should wear crappier gear.
See? The argument doesn't hold water. You would rage if clerics were no longer needed to heal because your skills had not kept up with the game.

Stop treating barbs like they're being unreasonable to want to fix their broken skills so they have a chance at keeping up with the game, please, because you would do exactly the same thing if it was you.

worldsanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

. . . aggro thieves have always been a problem. Before interval gear was so easy to get, it wasn't so noticeable and generally it wasn't such an issue, but this has always been an underlying issue.

The main point is a damage dealer needs to learn how to deal the optimum amount of damage without grabbing aggro. This can take a lot of effort to actually master, particularly when you consider the skill level that varies from barb to barb, and while one barb will be able to let you get away with a lot more, another of the same level may not.

^this.

If it weren't for epeens, they would learn how to control their DD to not pull aggro. Its not that you can't hold it as well as always, its that there is a new DD on the block that it TRYING to take aggro. Some BM's I know actually use alpha male to intentionally take it away from the barb because it makes them look OP (or more OP than they really are).

If you can't hold aggro, I say you let them take it. Take the repair bill, take the damage, take the pot costs. I smell a little kitty ego in this post too . . . .

And if you get a buff so those BM's and Archers don't steal aggro, how about giving the original arrgo thieves a buff too to do more damage? I have to really, really try hard to get aggro if there is an aggro fight with the barb, bm and archer. Alot more difficult than it was 2 years ago. As long as you are handing out buffs to keep with the original intent of the game, show the wizzies some love too! b:cry