Sins having best DPS in game

rikako

Yet its something you can't deny, who knows if pwi releases 200 rep point candies or whatever.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

maocchi wrote: »

He has about 10k HP, which is a lot more than any typical HA users have. His gear is unrealistic for most people.

Yeah, his gear is unrealistic. But without it, you won't out-DPS anything. And I mean it: anything. At this very moment, every sin is getting out-DPS'd by a fist user. That happens to be an archer. But without that kind of gear, there is no way a sin can beat a fist BM in DPS. And I know it will take long before we see +12 weapons on sins. After that, we will see. b:bye

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

Legendadry - Harshlands wrote: »

ok this is damage per second. A sin base attack is 1.25 attack per second. A fist BM has 1.43 base attack unbuffed. 1.43>1.25.
QUOTE]

bla bla bla. Nirvana can get -0,05 on several pieces and -0,1 on 1st recast 99gold daggers. we can both reach 5.0 if putting them time into. also it seems the dream breaker dagger is wepeon of sages. also have -0,1 interval.

edit: damn what did i remove too much in Quote.. lol

ShadowsWrath - Heavens Tear

As we speak its

Bm > Sins (since atm sin's can't achieve 5/atk)

In the future if everything pans out like the math dictates then

Sins > Bm .

But TBH wether its a BM, Sin or Archer its not a class claim to fame, since only a very few players will be able to afford the gear for 5atk/s.

It doesnt suddenly make the whole class X more pr0 or more wanted by squads.

Its nothing more than a "Who has the biggest e-peen contest"

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

so basically what your saying is if a sin cant tank they cant DPS right? so i guess barbs and BMs tanking while the DD class DDs is no longer a strategy in this game anymore huh?

or maybe by your logic HP and Defense adds to overall DPS.

No, he's making a practicality argument. In many cases, an Assassin wouldn't want such a high DPS. In PvE in particular, they'd pull aggro and get themselves killed. If you're the one tanking (like BMs frequently do), then you're free to increase your DPS as much as you wish because it helps you keep aggro. If you're not tanking, then you must limit your DPS to the main tank's DPS+aggro rate, to avoid pulling aggro.

It's somewhat different in PvP, as players are more judicious in who they elect to target.

Starchief - Sanctuary wrote: »

Fist BM has more dps, because they have faster attack and faster chi gain 5 instead of 4, faster chi means more sparks, more sparks means higher dps.

That is irrelevant. At 5 atk/sec and 4 chi per hit, you generate 3 sparks in 15 seconds. Demon triple spark lasts 15 seconds. So even 4 chi per hit is sufficient to keep yourself permanently demon triple sparked.

Similarly, the use of any attack skills is irrelevant because they have a fixed channel+cast time which kills your DPS. The skills may let you do more damage per hit. But in the time it takes you to use the skill (typically 1-2 seconds), you would've hit so many times with regular attacks that using the skill actually reduces your DPS. The only exception is buff skills which augment your regular attack damage, and even those need to be looked at case-by-case.

Legendadry - Harshlands wrote: »

ok this is damage per second. A sin base attack is 1.25 attack per second. A fist BM has 1.43 base attack unbuffed. 1.43>1.25. End of dissucion i dont know y it took 9 pages to establish that buy yeah.

1.43 atk/sec and 1.25 atk/sec is just a difference of -0.1 delay (0.7 sec per attack vs. 0.8 sec per attack). The key bone of contention has been whether Assasins would get -0.1 interval daggers (akin to Deicide and the rank 8 fist weapon), and whether they would get -0.1 interval on their rank 8 chest armor like archers do.

All the other interval gear in the game will give you -0.3.

• Wrists give -0.1
• Love Up & Down gives -0.05
• lunar cape gives -0.05
• two pieces of lionheart armor gives -0.05
• two pieces of ashura's (usually ornaments) gives -0.05.

This puts fists at 0.4 sec (2.5 atk/sec) and daggers at 0.5 (2 atk/sec).

Having -0.1 interval on the weapon itself puts fists at 0.3 (3.33 atk/sec) and daggers at 0.4 (2.5 atk/sec). The latest pwdatabase update shows endgame Assassin weapons with -0.1 interval.

It also shows Assassin rank 8 chest as having -0.1 interval. I thought it was highly unlikely that PWE would do that (since -interval affects fast weapons more than slow weapons like bows), but looks like I was wrong. That lowers the Assassin's attack interval to 0.3 (3.33 atk/sec), matching a fist BM.

The remaining -0.1 is achieved with demon triple spark, which reduces interval by 25%. This lowers the interval to 0.225, which the game rounds down to 0.2 (5 atk/sec). This appears to be the cap. You can add red bubble, Relentless Courage, or Wind Shield to improve this, but from what I read from people who've tried this, your attack speed doesn't go higher than 5 atk/sec.

So it would appear both BM and Assasins can reach 5 atk/sec.

Astoru - Heavens Tear

Multi-path BM with 5 m/s attack speed has the highest DPS.

You really think that Assassin can out-DD a heaven flame + 5 m/s fist?

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Multi-path BM with 5 m/s attack speed has the highest DPS.

You really think that Assassin can out-DD a heaven flame + 5 m/s fist?

Yes, they do think that. There is no evidence however, none. Even theories need to concern themselves with technical details. Now, as an update;

NO EVIDENCE HAS BEEN PRESENTED SO FAR IN THIS THREAD.

Apparently calculating a sin's dps is so mindnumbingly difficult no one cares to even try...

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

ShadowsWrath - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As we speak its

Bm > Sins (since atm sin's can't achieve 5/atk)

In the future if everything pans out like the math dictates then

Sins > Bm .

"

I doubt and the math part hmm I don't think so.I don't think you understand the role of Sin it is a hit and runner as with its LA on.It can't stand there dealing out the damage like a BM or even Barb can.you are much like an Archer although theirs is ranged.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Biggest thing is everyone assumes that all weapons in game have the same ceiling for attacks per second. Fists was found when people had enough -interval to get 6.67, but still attacked at a rate of 5 per second in actual. So for some reason, everyone seems to believe 5 is the same for all weapons. Not sure why, as it seems pretty counter to the weapon balance.

If interval gear had stayed as it was, then things may have been different. But they added another piece of -interval gear, which would mean fists have less of a premium now. If they add another piece of -interval, then even heavy venos could be in contention for highest DPS, since their mag sword has .8 interval as well and the highest weapon mastery bonus of all classes.

Now beside all that, this would make fists largely pointless at that time. Suddenly even magic users would be dealing more damage than a fister, which would bring up the reason of why even using fists to begin with. This may be wrong, but they designed fists for this specific role: why remove the purpose just to change DPS in such a random manner? While possible, it seems unlikely. So a character screenie wouldn't be useful as proof, since fists can show above 5 APS, it would really need a video showing chi gain to really determine what the ceiling truly is for other weaponry.

Giodia - Heavens Tear

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

seems like its accepted that sins are the best dps. strange tho that for that to happen we had to go over a ****load of text and flames...so useless...
Strange Giodia what convinced u otherwise? since the arguments and theories didn't change as well as the arguments for this statement.

I'm was never convinced at all.....not by you oscar winning emo acting... nor anyone else.

So far, the scientist has put off alot of theories throughout human history. But many a times, they were wrong too.

What makes this theory more 'right' than most?

Personally, even if you have the best dps, you will just pull aggro and die.

Are you able to use your so-called best dps at bosses with aoe?

Turn emo with a bow and shoot away, therefore also gimping your best DPS?

At that point, what's makes you any different from other DDs, when you are not able to DD to your full potential ?

It seems that you are trying to seek supremacy over all DD classes to 'find' a hole for yourself.

At the end of the day, you are not any more awesome than us.

edit: do feel free to replace any class if you simply need that to satisfy your emotional well-being.

Without BH, I can still grind in the air. So assure yourself that the throne is yours.

Nightwhisper - Harshlands

This argument is kinda dumb.... I thought i would add some numbers to this...

Assumptions:
1) fist weapons and dagger weapons deal ruffly the same damage.
2) fist weapons and daggers refine at ruffly the same rate.
----Therefor weapon damage= X for both classes
3) sparked 5 attacks per second is the best DPS.
4) BM's can get 5 attacks per second using fists.
5) at lvl 100 a BM will devote about 300 points to str and 200 to dex
6) at lvl 100 a sin will devote about 400 points to dex and 100 points to str
7) the damage calculation will remain the same for fists and for daggers.

---

Therefor each sin hit will do more damage then a fist BM hit and have more chance to crit.
8) the max attack is 5 per second for both classes.
9) both classes have endless amounts of cash

all that's left is to find out if sins can get to 5 attacks per second...
0.8 - Base dagger attack speed.
0.1 - rank 8 tunic
0.1 - Nirvana daggers or rank 8 daggers (possibly)
0.1 - TT 99 Light arms
0.05 - TT 99 light armor set bonus (arms + boots)
0.05 - TT 99 HA set bonus (neckless + belt)
0.05 - lunar cape
0.05 - scroll of tome
0.05 - Nirvana legings

---

.25 attack speed
0.05 Demon spark.

---

0.2 attack speed or 5 attacks per second

sins can get to 5 attacks per second and each hit will do more damage and have a higher chance to crit then BM...

Therefore: Sins can sustain a higher DPS then fist BM's


*Note: I said SUSTAIN, perhaps a spark>HF.5attck/sec would be more DPS for a short time... but so would a crit BDIS

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Nightwhisper - Harshlands wrote: »

This argument is kinda dumb.... I thought i would add some numbers to this...

Assumptions:
1) fist weapons and dagger weapons deal ruffly the same damage.
2) fist weapons and daggers refine at ruffly the same rate.
----Therefor weapon damage= X for both classes
3) sparked 5 attacks per second is the best DPS.
4) BM's can get 5 attacks per second using fists.
5) at lvl 100 a BM will devote about 300 points to str and 200 to dex
6) at lvl 100 a sin will devote about 400 points to dex and 100 points to str
7) the damage calculation will remain the same for fists and for daggers.

---

Therefor each sin hit will do more damage then a fist BM hit and have more chance to crit.
8) the max attack is 5 per second for both classes.
9) both classes have endless amounts of cash

all that's left is to find out if sins can get to 5 attacks per second...
0.8 - Base dagger attack speed.
0.1 - rank 8 tunic
0.1 - Nirvana daggers or rank 8 daggers (possibly)
0.1 - TT 99 Light arms
0.05 - TT 99 light armor set bonus (arms + boots)
0.05 - TT 99 HA set bonus (neckless + belt)
0.05 - lunar cape
0.05 - scroll of tome
0.05 - Nirvana legings

---

.25 attack speed
0.05 Demon spark.

---

0.2 attack speed or 5 attacks per second

sins can get to 5 attacks per second and each hit will do more damage and have a higher chance to crit then BM...

Therefore: Sins can sustain a higher DPS then fist BM's


*Note: I said SUSTAIN, perhaps a spark>HF.5attck/sec would be more DPS for a short time... but so would a crit BDIS

*Screen shot then write these (quoute) down to paper.
Awesome b:shocked, so basically what makes the winner in the end is "critical rate", "critical damage", and amount of cash they willing to use.

Here 2 weapons, both npc weapon, check them out :
Conquest Fist Glove lv 83 < Iron Fist str based
Thunder Thorn lv 85 < Dagger dex based
* i chose the 83 - 85 one since, i can't find npc dagger around lv 100.

Wolf Emblem : 30 % more critical damage, Power Dash : 40% more rage damage (aka critical), Chill Deep : 30 atk lv.

But an assassin need good gear, refines, and shards to be able to keep survive from boss aoe or if they steal agroo.
(edit : i mean these thread just talking about best dps not talking survive rate, because some people just not realize it x.x)

Giodia - Heavens Tear

Nightwhisper - Harshlands wrote: »

math formula edited off.

sins can get to 5 attacks per second and each hit will do more damage and have a higher chance to crit then BM...

Therefore: Sins can sustain a higher DPS then fist BM's


*Note: I said SUSTAIN, perhaps a spark>HF.5attck/sec would be more DPS for a short time... but so would a crit BDIS

Please do enlighten me, may I know the true usage of your 5 pattk/sec?

If you are soloing, yes, I see the point.

If you are pvping, yes I see the point too.

If you are squading, you would pull aggro if you do not watch it. (and that defeats the purpose of having best dps).

Or if the boss has an aoe, best dps with Daggers may be able to heal you enough, but then again, why squad when you can solo and get the epic lootz?

Am I correct to assume, the purpose of justifying the dps and the gear is to satisfy the innate need of recognition and feel needed in squads, probably arose from the depths of insecurity that the sins seems to portray?

Or am I totally wrong here?

Asperitas - Lost City

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Or if the boss has an aoe, best dps with Daggers may be able to heal you enough, but then again, why squad when you can solo and get the epic lootz?

Because:

1. Soloing takes a long time
2. Maybe you're doing it for friends
3. Costly

Also, we're talking about "potential" DPS here. Potential, meaning the best a class can do, not the best the situation allows you to.

I don't think it's so much as to establish a class superiority or to create a niche for sins to fill. But since day 1, everyone's been saying how sins can't do this, can't do that, can't match anything. But everyone's forgetting it's just simply a statement.

"Sins have potentially the highest DPS."

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything regarding it's usefulness and feasibility is external to this matter.

It's purely a matter of "can a sin reach that dps or not". That's exactly the question being answered here.

ShadowsWrath - Heavens Tear

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Am I correct to assume, the purpose of justifying the dps and the gear is to satisfy the innate need of recognition and feel needed in squads, probably arose from the depths of insecurity that the sins seems to portray?

Pretty much yeah lol

Killahoe - Harshlands

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But i dunno how assassin survive without epic gear & shards. b:laugh

This topic isnt about survival, its about raw dps.

Why do people always go off on tangents and argue things that have no direct relivance to what is being said.

A dead sin killed by a boss because he has the highest dps still achieves the goal of being the highest dps class.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Killahoe - Harshlands wrote: »

This topic isnt about survival, its about raw dps.

Why do people always go off on tangents and argue things that have no direct relivance to what is being said.

A dead sin killed by a boss because he has the highest dps still achieves the goal of being the highest dps class.

no no i don't mean that . . . sowwy b:surrender (edit my earlier post)
It just so . . . people that read my post, understand that what we mean by assassin as the best dps not mean we saying assassin can replace tank too . . .
These thread just discus dps, simply just deal dps thats it b:surrender

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

for the guys that keep saying "you will always pull aggro and die" u do know that is exactly why devs lowered the aggro gain on both sins and psys a few patches back right? and even if a sin does get aggro simply force Stealth which will erase all hate that u did gain on the mob... the boss will then proceed to hit the barb/BM who is generating aggro after the sin.

Giodia - Heavens Tear

Killahoe - Harshlands wrote: »

This topic isnt about survival, its about raw dps.

Why do people always go off on tangents and argue things that have no direct relivance to what is being said.

A dead sin killed by a boss because he has the highest dps still achieves the goal of being the highest dps class.

The game as I believe is about team play. If the sins gets killed by the boss, please be assured that someone or people will join him if it's in a squad.

Giodia - Heavens Tear

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

for the guys that keep saying "you will always pull aggro and die" u do know that is exactly why devs lowed the aggro gain on both sins and psys a few patches back right? and even if a sin does get aggro simply force Stealth which will erase all hate that u did gain on the mob... the boss will then proceed to hit the barb/BM who is generating aggro after the sin.

Precisely of what you can do that makes people wary of your class. You can prevent a death on yourself. But others will need to run for it. Will it be fair to others if this death (and exp lost) is caused by you?

You may think that it's not your exp lost, so you wouldn't care at all.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The game as I believe is about team play. If the sins gets killed by the boss, please be assured that someone or people will join him if it's in a squad.

like i said if the sin is smart they will force stealth and erase any hate that was gained on them. and they will stay in stealth and not atk for a bit to let the barb/BM regain a bit more aggro before the sin starts atking again...

Killahoe - Harshlands

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The game as I believe is about team play. If the sins gets killed by the boss, please be assured that someone or people will join him if it's in a squad.

I know you read my post, but did you realy understand what i said?

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Precisely of what you can do that makes people wary of your class. You can prevent a death on yourself. But others will need to run for it. Will it be fair to others if this death (and exp lost) is caused by you?

You may think that it's not your exp lost, so you wouldn't care at all.

/facepalm

aegfwgf

Asperitas - Lost City

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The game as I believe is about team play. If the sins gets killed by the boss, please be assured that someone or people will join him if it's in a squad.

The game has a combination of teamplay and soloplay. And while there's aspects of both, the topic is about DPS, which is irrelevant to teamplay, or aggro generation or anything of that matter.

When you discuss potential DPS of a BM, you give him expensive equips with lunar claws or TT100 fists. That's his potential. Does that mean he won't draw aggro with a set up like that? Of course not. 9/10 times a permasparked BM with 5 attacks/second will draw aggro. But does that discount their potential? No. We still talk of BMs as high dpsers even if they do draw aggro.

Bring the same concept here.

DPS is DPS, regardless of aggro, regardless of what your squad does, regardless of if you die or not.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

b:tired . . . let see . . . how these thread flow . . .

"Sins having best DPS in game"


A : "Assassin has potential to become the best dps."
B : "Hell fist bm > assassin."

A : "Lots of new -interval gear available now, and dagger speed is 1,25."
B : "You need tons of cash."

A : "Assassin has tons of critical."
B : "That useless because you will died because of that, a dps that can't survive is useless"
C : "Their skill not complete yet, we can't decide yet"

A : "If we steal agroo or tank died, we just run around long enough then stealth so squad can run away"
B : "Then you ok with people dying because you go stealth ?"

A : "You won't agree ?"
B : "Show me real math."
C : "o.o"


*more coming later, have to go now. Btw, this is just how these thread flow so far o.o i just read first page to last page.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Before anyone takes the "highest dps" thing for granted let me remind all you again IT HASN'T BEEN THEORETICALLY PROVEN. As i understand it Demon Spark multiplies weapon damage, let's asume for argument's sake it will work the same with sins. What is the level of the daggers that give -interval? Are there higher level fists that provide it too? What's the numbers on said daggers? Do you know if the attack provided by each point of Dex overwhelms what BMs get from Str 2-1? Cause that may as well be the ratio needed considering 2.5 Str is the fist build. People are going on about using Subsea Strike and Power Dash along with Demon Spark, which can't be sustained at 4 chi a hit, not with both skills at a cost of two sparks.

This theory, as sound as it may seem, works off unproven concepts.

1. Daggers generally get higher damage than claw/fists. At same level yes, probably, but what is the level of the daggers that provide interval?

2. Higher crit rate allows for considerable extra damage. How much higher is the extra crit rate? 10%? A level 100 sin should have around 20% crit without gear bonuses, a fistie may get half that. How much does each get from gear? Is a 10% chance really enough to overwhelm other factors in average dps.

3. Higher dex provides more of an advantage than lesser amounts of Str. We don't know how much or if any at all. As i've said before the ratio interests us.

4. Gear bonuses are equivalent at same level. Not necesarily true, since a fistie may have easier access to - interval he may gear something different that may provide a crucial advantage. Is the BM forced to use a tome that provides faster attack for instance? And what else could he equip that may raise his damage if not?

5. All pertinent factors have been accounted for. Does anyone even know what the highest proven (as in actually demonstrated) dps is? There may be something missing in the picture none of us has thought about.

Proving something, even in theory, requires intellectual rigueur. You can't just take things for granted and assume everything will go your way. This sin theory is flawed since is yet to be supported by, yes theoretical, math.

You can't just design a pet theory and consider it fact without actually going into details. As i've said before, there is such a thing as character calculators, USE THEM. If the gear required is missing LOOK IT UP, screen it, and do the math yourself. I'm not just taking someone's word that something is in game when i haven't seen it. There's such a thing as burden of proof. IT'S THE DUTY OF WHOEVER MAKES THE CLAIM TO PROVE IT.

STEP UP OR STFU!

Asperitas - Lost City

I've tried building up the two characters on pwcalc.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8613efc28f14745f
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8187e858ac73a34b

The assassin calculator doesn't seem to be complete, but the gear is there. Just missing the weapon. If you factor in the nirvana daggers, you'll end up with the same interval as BMs.

I also couldn't locate daggers on pwdatabase so I can't post it here. But I've compared the lv 69 daggers to the lv 70 claw Dark Flash, and the daggers have a slightly higher damage.

Giodia - Heavens Tear

It seems that people (especially sins and psys) do not understand the concept of co-relativity and consequences.

It seems that I am unable to gasp the true intention of the potential which many speaks.

Imho, the awesome 'dps' (or 'best' dps for that matter) is like a double edged sword which you may not be able to use to it's full potential due to factors with I have repeated too many a times.

Then what good is power when one is unable to use when the potential is able to bear fruit?

The concept of talking about a 'potential' in theory, are just words and very much a dream which many will not be able to achieve with the price tag.

Now, it brings the fundamental question on why humans would talk about a dream endlessly. Perhaps, it's the very hope that these players need. The very hope to feel needed or wanted. The very need for recognition from their peers. Or perhaps, it's the need to prove the majority wrong that drives them like slaves to their anger or discontent.

When the humans in question, leaves the game eventually, it will inevitably ends with a 0 once again. I do believe some humans thrive in conflicts and it's that excitement that drives them on day by day.

But eventually, everything ends with a 0.

Asperitas - Lost City

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It seems that people (especially sins) do not understand the concept of co-relativity and consequences.

It seems that I am unable to gasp the true intention of the potential which many speaks.

Imho, the awesome 'dps' (or 'best' dps for that matter) is like a sword which you may not be able to use to it's full potential due to factors with I have repeated too many a times.

Then what good is power when one is unable to use when the potential is able to bear fruit?

The concept of talking about a 'potential' in theory, are just words and very much a dream which many will not be able to achieve with the price tag.

Now, it brings the fundamental question on why humans would talk about a dream endlessly. Perhaps, it's the very hope that these players need. The very hope to feel need or wanted. The very need for recognition from their peers. Or perhaps, it's the need to prove the majority wrong that drives them like slaves to their anger or discontent.

When the humans in question, leaves the game eventually, it will inevitably ends with a 0 once again. I do believe some humans thrive in conflicts and it's that excitement that drives them on day by day.

But eventually, everything ends with a 0.

In reality, yeah it is probably just a dream, or something of latent potential that is unable to be harnessed.

But it's part of your class, and it's what your capable of doing. No harm in pointing that out. You know you have it at your disposal. Whether to use it or not is totally up to you. Knowledge is power.

When someone asks you:

"Hey your car's top speed?"

You're going to peek at the dashboard, look at the highest number on the speedometer and tell them something like

"230 km/h"

You're not going to say:

"100 km/h" because that's how fast the road limit is.

Point is, nobody's talking about how useful this is going to be in squad situations. They're talking about potential, capability and possibility.

And people like discussing about those things

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

like i said if the sin is smart they will force stealth and erase any hate that was gained on them. and they will stay in stealth and not atk for a bit to let the barb/BM regain a bit more aggro before the sin starts atking again...

Yes, that's all fine and dandy but...

What if there is no barb... and the party consists of a BM, Archer, Mage, etc... you force stealth, aggro is reset, then the boss will target the next highest aggro class, such as mage or archer. If the BM cannot quickly steal aggro, or if a cleric fails to keep up with who to heal... the potential of a party wipe is pretty high. Herc may gain aggro, but only after the other dps classes realize that they need to stop DD and wait for the herc. In those few seconds a lot can happen.

So you may indeed be right if there is a barb around, but there isn't always a barb around, and an archer or mage with highly refined weapons can easily keep a herc from getting or holding aggro, even on ? bosses.