Sins having best DPS in game

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  • Ignation - Lost City
    Ignation - Lost City Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    What if the sin gets spam stunned by the boss? o.O
    think it wont make any use of the DPS xD jk b:surrender

    I honestly think that a sin can do way better than a fist BM.
    look at it this way:

    Sin = High crit + High dmg + fast DPS (regardless of the fact that they can or can't achieve 5 attacks a sec.)

    BM = Fast DPS + Meduim to high damage.

    just needed to point that outb:bye

    Edit: umm and this a DPS thread not a survival thread.
    "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »
    lol this discussion is still going?


    Both classes can reach 5 atks/sec, highest DPS = constant triple spark/melee with genie skills maybe, if you want DPS you won't use any damn 2 spark skills. That's just stupid. Sins have a higher critrate and can increase their crit damage half the time, and both get the same genie skills/chi gain.


    Endgame potential = Sin > BM.

    their + crit skill IS a 2 spark skill so ya...

    bm's however can use dragon bane whenever its out of CD (only 1 spark)

    lunar recasted claws with adv revenge + recast legs find a way to do more damage than that and you get highest possible DPS(god i sound like a broken record)

    try looking up both sides of nirvana gear and skills before you argue this people >.<
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    True that they do not have sustainable AOE, but they are talking about normal attacks which in fact is also our rice bow (Archers).

    The key word is DPS. If sins does that without skills, AOEs shouldn't be used to counter their claims at all.

    DPS means "Damage Per Second". It does not matter if that damage comes as a form of normal attacks, skills, damage over time, or max HP reduction.

    The opening poster asked which class can deal the most damage per second. There was no statement singling out one single target. Furthermore, in a fair discussion, we must take into account multiple targets, since casting AoE on multiple characters in a TW is a valid tactic. It is not something just made up. Ignoring AoEs for DPS calculations is a bias toward classes without AoEs.

    If our goal is to have a real discussion, then we must remove any bias. Otherwise, I could ask the question: which class can deal the most damage to a single target that is always 15 meters away from you? This is obviously a stupid question as it is biased toward ranged classes. Stating that we are limiting this DPS question to only a single target is just as unreasonable.

    A machine gun can fire many bullets per second. It is faster to single out targets and kill them. A bomb can destroy a city. It is slower to place and arm properly. I think a bomb has a higher DPS.
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think a bomb has a higher DPS.
    especially those ones that have lasting radiation effects for quite a time after =)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Legendadry - Harshlands
    Legendadry - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I guess you all really cant read. Sin's werent meant to do dps. They were meant to have hard hitting skills w/out takeing a hit. End game or not it doesnt change mechanics. This thread is full of ppl who just dont understand that. what difference does it make that u can hit 5 times a second if i can just 1 shot u cuz ur la? WTB people who learned to read
    I dont level Slow I just enjoy the game b:surrender
  • rikako
    rikako Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    doesnt change a **** because dps doesnt necessary has to do something with pvp. dps is also usefull in pve.
  • Legendadry - Harshlands
    Legendadry - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    rikako wrote: »
    doesnt change a **** because dps doesnt necessary has to do something with pvp. dps is also usefull in pve.

    so u want to kill mobs w/ 5 attacks per second? what a waste. Also you do know that fists have - interval stuff as well. I'm sure some CS sin can get 5 attacks per second as well as a fist BM which is already proven w/ the 95 lunar claws.
    I dont level Slow I just enjoy the game b:surrender
  • rikako
    rikako Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    read the thread, archer can solo bosses so will sin, and using skills on mobs is just plain stupid. didnt said sin wasnt able to reach 5.0 please dont make stuff up.
  • Legendadry - Harshlands
    Legendadry - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    rikako wrote: »
    read the thread, archer can solo bosses so will sin, and using skills on mobs is just plain stupid. didnt said sin wasnt able to reach 5.0 please dont make stuff up.

    lol dude u need to chill. when did i start talking about archer's? I'm talking about OP. OP was about sin dps not about tanking bosses and what not. they talking about end game gear i'm pretty sure some person will gear there sin to do that and if they want it fine. I"m just sayin from reading sins skills they're more suited for just useing high dmg attacks to take down targets. Whether that be mobs or player or what have you.
    I dont level Slow I just enjoy the game b:surrender
  • rikako
    rikako Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    nobody talked about tanking bosses, you said ****/second was a waste and i said it wasnt, because its usefull to take bosses down ffs. of course sin seems like being built for using skills only, but theres other options as u said.
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Hmm lemme think on the history of this:-

    1.) Person A says assassins not getting squaded
    2.) People argue on the usefulness of assassins in a squad
    3.) Argument devolves into the DPS of sins and person B asks for proof from person C
    4.) This thread is created by person C to prove to person B about a sin's DPS
    5.) Argument continues on DPS of sins (similar to another thread in the sin forums)
    6.) Now its come down to how to define DPS

    *watches intently while having popcorn and coke* b:chuckle

    As far as I am concerned, DPS reflects more on the speed at which damage is dealt while DPH defines how much damage you can deal per hit.

    The 5 atks per second is the max attack rate any one can achieve in this game and any class who can attain that (cash shop or otherwise) have the right to state they have max attack rate. That being max DPS can be achieved by BMs (proven), Sins (will be proven when they get their skills completed) and Archers (proven).

    Now the above does not mean all of them deal the same amount of damage over a given period of time. What truely determines that is the DPH + DPS.

    So now please modify your theories to suite the new requirement.

    Which class has the maximum DPH + attack rate combo since that is what would determine the DPS.

    Just because a class can reach 5 attack/sec doesnt mean that they have the highest DPS automatically.

    Edit: Modified DPS as attack rate in select sections since what I had put earlier did not make much sense to me either :P
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Now the above does not mean all of them deal the same amount of damage over a given period of time. What truely determines that is the DPH + DPS.

    What are you talking about? "Damage per second" means "damage over time".

    You cannot add DPH and DPS. The units are wrong. 
    Damage      Damage
------  +  --------  =  ???
1 Hit      1 Second
  • Lulznotwar - Lost City
    Lulznotwar - Lost City Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Just a thought to pose.

    If and i say IF sins have a higher DPS than fist bms

    would that not make fistbms almost redundant besides a secondary tank?

    Considering how well balanced classes are endgame, me no thinks so b:victory

    I'd say they are both very similar DPS wise but then again most of the sins max hits etc are just theory cause no one knows
    RIP spoons
    RIP PWI
    The game is dead
  • Olba - Sanctuary
    Olba - Sanctuary Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What are you talking about? "Damage per second" means "damage over time".

    You cannot add DPH and DPS. The units are wrong. 
    Damage      Damage
------  +  --------  =  ???
1 Hit      1 Second

    I somehow hope that he was not referring to actually adding them up to form some arbitrary "damage unit", but rather that he meant the relation between them. Too high DPS with low DPH is useless in PvP, whereas low DPS with high DPH is useless in PvE, the optimal setting being somekind of a balance between these two.
    If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.

    Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I somehow hope that he was not referring to actually adding them up to form some arbitrary "damage unit", but rather that he meant the relation between them. Too high DPS with low DPH is useless in PvP, whereas low DPS with high DPH is useless in PvE, the optimal setting being somekind of a balance between these two.

    DPS does not automatically imply regular attacks, which is what I think Elviron is assuming. DPS just means the damage over time, no matter the cause. Within the context of PvP, the Venomancer's Phoenix has a high DPS with the Bleed Skill. This is not based on normal attacks, yet I'm fairly certain people will say the Phoenix has a high DPS (for PvP).
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Legendadry - Harshlands wrote: »
    I guess you all really cant read. Sin's werent meant to do dps. They were meant to have hard hitting skills w/out takeing a hit. End game or not it doesnt change mechanics. This thread is full of ppl who just dont understand that. what difference does it make that u can hit 5 times a second if i can just 1 shot u cuz ur la? WTB people who learned to read
    how many BMs/Archers actually kill things with skill spamming? Sins are a combination of the two. I know you're low leveled and ignorant, but axes are hardly good weapons for 1v1 later on. Unless you count duels...
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • maocchi
    maocchi Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Lulznotwar - Lost City wrote: »
    Just a thought to pose.

    If and i say IF sins have a higher DPS than fist bms

    would that not make fistbms almost redundant besides a secondary tank?

    Um, no. Fist BMs can dish out damage AND take damage so aggro stealing is less problematic than for Sins.

    Even if Sins do have higher DPS, as stated before, they won't be able to put it to use because they can't afford to steal aggro.

    This discussion is about who has the higher DPS, not who is more useful.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    First, a big thanks to Waffle for actually doing all the math. Whatever else archers remain PW's mathematicians and it seems obvious to me neither sins nor venos are anywhere near contending for that. Now, the 10439 figure i'm forced to make a correction on (mistake was certainly mine, not in any way Waffle's) as this is an average attack figure and not dps.

    Second, as for wether using skills or not is effective, even meagre math skills like mine should be sufficient to determine that, instead of ranting about it just do the math. You dont even need an actual dps estimate for that one.

    Third, it seems the actual dps number would be (assuming the final figure to correspond to a single attack, as going over the equation i didn't find 5 att/sec to have been accounted for) 10439*5= 52195. Which does seem grossly overpowered to say the least... but...

    Fourth, We have yet to compare this to the potential dps of other classes. I will concede the point when proven to me, we are not there yet. For those of you arguing the potential benefits or downsides to using any class on pve or pvp this does allow the chance to compare the effects of skills actually being used. Now, i do have some stuff to do (and have already shown myself far from being skilled at doing numbers) so i may be going a bit slow about posting, but hopefully this may be settled today.
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What are you talking about? "Damage per second" means "damage over time".

    DPS and DoT are the only two being bandied about that are different.

    DPS is a straight constant rate usually, as it averages out over the duration.

    DoT is doing less damage initially, to have a greater damage stack later on. The DPS ends up being variable, so harder to put in one category.

    But this DPS + DPH = GED that the guy was talking about.

    DPS is DPH * APS. DPH is already counted by going through DPS. That would just be redundant to count it twice. So even if they weren't adding the two, they are still wrong by counting it twice.
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

    Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx

    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    DPS and DoT are the only two being bandied about that are different.

    Ugh, I shouldn't have used "Damage over Time" as that means something else.

    I meant damage per second is the damage taken over some period of time (1 second).

    Anyways, I think people are equating DPH with "damage from a skill or a single regular attack" (which is correct) and DPS with "damage from regular attacks only" (which is wrong). DPS does not necessarily imply regular attacks.

    If Assassins have the highest DPS, then they'd be the desired DDs for zhen parties. However, since they cannot kill N targets more quickly than a Wizard or Archer, then that means they are not dealing more total sum damage over a period of time of, say, an hour.

    I do not know why people are ignoring the AoE aspect when having this DPS discussion.
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    @Elena
    Yes you are right. I edited my post before I saw yours since i realized that I had used DPS incorrectly. And here the only argument i see is that of Attack Rate and not "DPS". :P


    What I meant to say was, just because a class can attain 5 atks/sec doesnt mean theyre the best DPS in game.

    DPS = Damage Per Second

    Irrespective of the method used (normal shots/skills), the class which can dish the most damage in a given interval of time is the best DPSer.

    High attack rate with crappy damage per hit cannot be considered better than medium atk rate with high damage per hit.

    DPS is very circumstantial as each class can fare better than the other under certain situations.

    For example, on TT bosses Venos get the best DPS due to the fact that their pet doesnt suffer any damage penalty. Unless you can match the veno+pet damage with your attacks which is pretty difficult. Similarly for other classes.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    For example, on TT bosses Venos get the best DPS due to the fact that their pet doesnt suffer any damage penalty. Unless you can match the veno+pet damage with your attacks which is pretty difficult. Similarly for other classes.

    2 things:

    1) It's not the lack of damage penalty. It's the reflection damage that is massive.

    2) Asterelle can steal aggro from a herc in a TT run (using her bow). I assume fist BMs and Assassins can as well.
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    2 things:

    1) It's not the lack of damage penalty. It's the reflection damage that is massive.

    2) Asterelle can steal aggro from a herc in a TT run (using her bow). I assume fist BMs and Assassins can as well.

    Yep, 10K+ per second is simple for fisters at 5 APS on ? bosses. Only channeling time of sparking slows the killing rate down. Happiness will be when one can solo kill squad mode Djinnscream before 4 mins is up :)
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

    Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx

    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    But this DPS + DPH = GED that the guy was talking about.

    DPS is DPH * APS. DPH is already counted by going through DPS. That would just be redundant to count it twice. So even if they weren't adding the two, they are still wrong by counting it twice.
    In relation to what the guy was talking about, I'm in complete agreement with you. However, it's important to keep in mind that DPS is an average over time. If (say) a caster has a big damage spell with a long cooldown, and the cooldown time must be filled with lower damage spells, their DPH may be more important than their DPS.

    Here's an example graph I made to demonstrate this long ago. The issue being debated was which did more damage - the herc or the magmite? The herc has higher DPS, but the magmite has higher DPH (slower attacks). Due to the front-loading of the damage (the damage gets applied, then you have a delay til the next attack), it creates a staircase damage profile, not a smooth diagonal ramp. Consequently, for certain time periods and hp thresholds at the start of the fight, the magmite actually kills faster despite its lower DPS:

    herc-vs-mag.png

    This shouldn't matter for the BM/Sin debate though since they're both attacking at the same rate. Just pointing it out in case anyone mistakenly tries to take what you say and misapply it to something like Wiz vs. Sin.
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    @Elena
    Which is why I added the part that said "unless you can match the veno+pet damage". Guess at higher levels its not so much of an issue for an archer.

    But I guess you get my point on DPS being circumstantial rather than a definite measure of determining the best DPS class in a game.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    But I guess you get my point on DPS being circumstantial rather than a definite measure of determining the best DPS class in a game.

    Sorry, I don't get this, though I think it may be a communication/language issue.

    How is DPS not a definite measure in determining the best DPS class?
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ok I guess its more of a communication/language issue or the fact that am unable to word it correctly.

    DPS is circumstantial and attack rate alone cannot determine the best DPS class in a game.

    Sins providing the reason that because they have crit boosts and can achieve 5 atks/second doesnt automatically make them the best DPS class for all situations.

    Like you mentioned for AOE, sins are not the best DPS class in game. That would be claimed by archers/wizards depending on the mobs being AoEed which is again circumstantial (i.e. inc mag resist or inc phy defese)

    Also DPS considers the time during which youre dead or unable to attack as well. If am lying on the floor for 5 mins out of 10 mins, I couldnt be considered the best DPS class in that situation.

    Effectively if a lower level tank is present and an assassin/archer/wizard is holding back on his/her damage then their DPS is effectively cut down and that assassin/archer/wizard is no longer the desired DPS class for that situation.

    This entire argument about which class has the best DPS is really not required/needed.

    This is nothing against assassins in particular but a simple fact that all DDers have to deal with. There is no best DPS class or DDer in this game. Its just you need to determine in which situations you can do more damage and adapt accordingly.
  • Firefeng - Dreamweaver
    Firefeng - Dreamweaver Posts: 421 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    There is so much dumb in this thread it hurts.

    Power Dash increases critical rate. If any of you ever used it, or had it used on you, you would know this. Or you can just continue pouting and declaring that Power Dash does what its glitched, wrong description says it does despite numerous people with actual experience with the skill telling you otherwise.

    There is already a level 100 Sin with demon spark on Dreamweaver. His name is Ri$en, but his original character was swordman, who you may recognize as being one of the highest ranked PKers on the server. Now, Ri$en is only -0.05 interval short of having 5 attacks/second with daggers. He needs Nirvana daggers, if I'm not mistaken, to get this. Right now, he's statted to use either Deicide claws or TT100 fists, which he uses to kill decked out, 5 atk/sec Fist BMs and Barbs with 20k HP. As for survivability, numerous PKers in my faction are annoyed, because his Assassin is much harder to kill than his BM; between stealth, Deaden Nerves, and insane DPS coupled with life leech, he tends to destroy just about anything one-on-one, the exception being a tricked out Barb and BM, who he can only kill some of the time. Bear in mind, this is before (and assuming) he restats to pure Dex for more dmg.

    Now, Daggers have higher base damage than fists. My 80 fist BM only had about 2.8k base attack when using fists. My 80 Assassin has an average base attack of 4k. Ignoring Sacrificial Strike--which the uber rich assassins can get as a spawn on Nirvana daggers, by the way--because 5 atks/sec coupled with Sac Strike is stupid and will light up the user more than their opponents' skills will, similarly sharded and refined daggers of the same grade as a particular fist will always deal more damage than fists.

    You don't need heavy mathematics to figure this out, people. If you pump 500M-1B coin into an Assassin compared to any other class, it will be the deadliest, period. Of course, good luck with that; I can't even doublespark on most bosses without pulling hate unless the barb is good, or a higher level. Even using Power Dash for the increased critical rate pulls hate, a lot of the time.

    You should thank your lucky stars that most people will never have that much money, leaving Sin relatively balanced in the grand scheme of things. Maybe. My ability to spark in stealth and then immediately open with a 2-spark stun with high damage seems to make the squishies not like me so much, but I'm also not at the 9x stage where mages can get 10K+ physical defense.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=5129096004&dateline=1267246196[/SIGPIC]
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    DPH gets calculated into DPS over time. So if magmite kills faster, it has higher DPS. It isn't calculated for every second, it's total damage divided by time for DPS. Spike would be in regards to charms and short, high-powered debuffs. So a sustained DPH that deals more damage over time than another, is higher DPS. Only thing that would change that would be fitting it into a certain time interval, with anything outside being cut-off.
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

    Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx

    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • Ignation - Lost City
    Ignation - Lost City Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    If you all consider DPS as using skills or regular attacks.
    Then i think the sin wins just because they have that +30 attack buff.

    This will make this whole argument pointless.

    You guys are saying DPS like its just reaching 5.0 attacks per second while forgetting that DPS stands for (Damage Per Second).

    Like i said, higher critical rate is with the sin, and their power comes from dexterity.

    While a fist BM compared to a Sins build is like a hybrid due to the fact that (as the OP said) they have to split points between dexterity+strength while they may or may not add points to vitality.

    Higher critical rate = higher damage.

    And remember, it does not have to be 5 attacks per second, it can be 3 or 4 attacks per second for the sin and he will be able to strike harder and crit harder than a fist BM can ever reach or do. b:shocked

    If you think i'm wrong, please correct me, but please do remember the damage dealt per second, and i will bet you the sin wins in that part. b:chuckle
    "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

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