Sins having best DPS in game

MANray_ - Sanctuary

b:thanks

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

lets say it has 1 garnet gem, and the user has 2x lunar rings, level 99, 405 dex.

(522 + 97 + 97 + 99 + 75) * (1 + 405 / 150 + .6 + 5) = 8277 min
(783 + 97 + 97 + 99 + 75) * (1 + 405 / 150 + .6 + 5) = 10704 max

that is actually average 9491 DPS, NOT 13925.

i dont think you know how to calculate demon spark |:

b:thanks Much obliged. And no, this is the first time i ever try to calculate Demon Spark.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:thanks

b:thanks Much obliged. And no, this is the first time i ever try to calculate Demon Spark.

its not a problem, just take the equipment values + their level + weapon min and max
multiply it by (1 + dex / 150 + mastery + 5 for spark) (thanks for aster for teaching me that lol.)

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Ok, hope i get it right tis time around. Since Nirvanas are 603-904, lvl 100 weps, then... (I'll use the same lunar rings and garnet gem from the previous example).

(603+100+97+97+75)*(1+405/150+.6+5)=8073
(904+100+97+97+75)*(1+405/150+.6+5)=10573

That's 9323 damage per second with Demon Spark.

Anyone wishing to add skills can take it from here. Since i'm already 20 mins. late for meeting some friends i'll continue tomorrow. Please feel free to double check my math (never been my strong suit). Now that we have something of an educated guess we may compare to what we know of other classe's dps...

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

you did the order of operations wrong, min should be 9039 max should be 11838

add them together and divide by 2 = 10439 average.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

Do Assassins have a sustainable AoE?

Wizards and Archers can AoE multiple targets virtually indefinitely (one can spend a few thousand dollars on MP charms and Yuanxiao). Therefore, the total sum damage per second should be higher than a class that cannot sustain an AoE indefinitely.

We are talking theory, here, of course. If we can ignore aggro issues with dealing incredible amounts of damage, then we can also ignore the practicality of luring multiple bosses and mobs together and zhenning them.

I looked at ecatomb and could not find a sustainable AoE skill for Assassins. However, on the (fairly good) chance they have something wrong, I am asking here. Do Assassins have a sustainable AoE? If not, then I think wizards and archers have a higher damage-per-second sum total output when compared to Assassins.

Nightwhisper - Harshlands

Sins do not have a continuous AoE effect. So a wizard could do more damage if you somehow lured 10k mobs to him.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Do Assassins have a sustainable AoE?

Wizards and Archers can AoE multiple targets virtually indefinitely (one can spend a few thousand dollars on MP charms and Yuanxiao). Therefore, the total sum damage per second should be higher than a class that cannot sustain an AoE indefinitely.

We are talking theory, here, of course. If we can ignore aggro issues with dealing incredible amounts of damage, then we can also ignore the practicality of luring multiple bosses and mobs together and zhenning them.

I looked at ecatomb and could not find a sustainable AoE skill for Assassins. However, on the (fairly good) chance they have something wrong, I am asking here. Do Assassins have a sustainable AoE? If not, then I think wizards and archers have a higher damage-per-second sum total output when compared to Assassins.

no they dont. there only aoe is earthen rift and subsea strike.

Giodia - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Do Assassins have a sustainable AoE?

Wizards and Archers can AoE multiple targets virtually indefinitely (one can spend a few thousand dollars on MP charms and Yuanxiao). Therefore, the total sum damage per second should be higher than a class that cannot sustain an AoE indefinitely.

We are talking theory, here, of course. If we can ignore aggro issues with dealing incredible amounts of damage, then we can also ignore the practicality of luring multiple bosses and mobs together and zhenning them.

I looked at ecatomb and could not find a sustainable AoE skill for Assassins. However, on the (fairly good) chance they have something wrong, I am asking here. Do Assassins have a sustainable AoE? If not, then I think wizards and archers have a higher damage-per-second sum total output when compared to Assassins.

True that they do not have sustainable AOE, but they are talking about normal attacks which in fact is also our rice bow (Archers).

The key word is DPS. If sins does that without skills, AOEs shouldn't be used to counter their claims at all.

Revoltech - Lost City

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Or am I totally wrong here?

I am aware that this is a relatively old post, but I feel it is relevant so long as you have posted recently.

You are wrong here.

Those assassins whining about not feeling wanted in squads are a loud and, perchance, annoying few: Emphasis on loud and few. These are not the majority of assassins, just the most dramatic of the class. Go bash the person complaining, not the class.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Weapon Damage Ratio of Daggers to Fist

Based off of my neglected assassin

Dex 113

Dagger 105 - 157 range 52

Damage 322 - 413 range 91

91/52 = 1.75 damage multiplier

1.75 - 1 from the base given, leaving 113 dex giving .75 multiplier

113/150 = .75

RATIO is 1:1, as expected.

Revoltech - Lost City

Dreaded_Fate - Lost City wrote: »

I love all these 4x and 5x sins posting lol.

Because a person's level definitely determines the validity of their argument.

Revoltech - Lost City

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ok, so i used Ecatomb's calculator using the highest level of daggers i could find there (lvl 99 Barrier thorn-Gutbreaker) which are rated at 522-783 (much less than Nirvana daggers). With 405 points in Dex this makes for 2302-3268 phys attack. The average dmg would be 2785. Let's use this number.

With 5 attack a sec this would be an average dps of 13925.

Demon spark adds 500% of weapon damage, that's an extra 3262 per second

17187 b:shocked

Once again this figure would certainly be lower than the real one since i'm using lower damage just for the exercise.

Edit; please, i would really appreciate it if someone could find a flaw in my logic.

I am SO glad you took the initiative yourself. It was frustrating to see how zealous you were on the issue of numbers, yet you refrained from taking any action. Thank you.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

TurismoX - Lost City wrote: »

I don't see why this discussion even exists, I mean, it is blatantly obvious that an Assassin will out damage a fist BM.

Absolutely everything points towards it.. basically, we have to just wait until our 79 moves are implemented, we get demon/sage moves and triple spark just so we can "prove" it to the idiots that are in denial.

Dude, chill a bit. And show me the points. Points or GTFO. I mean really, if I was walking on a street and saying "there is no god, all things are against it", would you believe me? I wouldn't. I am really getting pissed of by this. Stop thinking you are the gods of PWI. You. Are. Not. b:bye

rikako

Damn and i believed in god, you totally crushed my entire life. b:cry

Revoltech - Lost City

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Dude, chill a bit. And show me the points. Points or GTFO. I mean really, if I was walking on a street and saying "there is no god, all things are against it", would you believe me? I wouldn't. I am really getting pissed of by this. Stop thinking you are the gods of PWI. You. Are. Not. b:bye

It's illogical to think otherwise. But that is a much deeper tangent. My apologies.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Revoltech - Lost City wrote: »

It's illogical to think otherwise. But that is a much deeper tangent. My apologies.

Yeah. But anyway, I understand that some of you might think that assassins have better DPS than fist BMs. It is possible. But that means:

1) +10 all equipment
2) +12 weapon
3) Nirvana gear
4) 5k RL cash

I am sure you don't have it. I am almost completely sure that all these "I am better than you, yet there is no proof but I just can't be worse than some random guy I don't know" people don't have it. Some random cash shopper has it. If s/he has any interest to sins, he might do it. But in any case, that just leaves one thing. If someone posts a video of sins DPS to youtube with godly gear and all and gets better result than a fist BM, it doesn't mean that others who have posted to this thread are any better than others in DPS. And let me clear this:

1) I don't hate sins
2) I don't hate you
3) I don't like your attitude

If you are just making assumptions based on thoughts like "it could be that way", it is okay for me. However, if you say it's the only right thing or you think you are always right, then please think twice before posting.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

Revoltech - Lost City wrote: »

It's illogical to think otherwise. But that is a much deeper tangent. My apologies.

pls dont start that here.

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I am sure you don't have it. I am almost completely sure that all these "I am better than you, yet there is no proof but I just can't be worse than some random guy I don't know" people don't have it. Some random cash shopper has it. If s/he has any interest to sins, he might do it.

Thats what it pretty much boils down to tbh.

Sins might as a class have the potential to have the highest DPS endgame but very few will achieve it, most will end up being mediocre to good (The same as Fist Bm's).

A very few being able to achieve it doesnt (unlike what some posters think) make the WHOLE class godly

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

A very few being able to achieve it doesnt (unlike what some posters think) make the WHOLE class godly

My point exactly.

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear

Giodia. First of all i never acted emo. I love this class and i never regretted it that i made a sin. I was simply worried that sins might be useless in squads since for latter lvls the other classes do just fine (they did before the expansion and obviously doin now).
The whole terade started with the claim that sins can outdps an archer or a fist bm. At first u flamed like crazy turning every point back even when it was clear with the knowledge, people have.
Now in this Thread u suddenly said it like " so what if sins are the best dps, do u wan't a trophy?". In the end we got the fact that sins have the potential to be the best DPS class in PWI.
That most of the players aren't capable of achieving it because of financial issues, wasn't in descussion. The Fist Bm was regarded as the best DPS even though not every Fist Bm could afford all the gear to get 5dps. We were always talking of the maximum capabilities of a class.

Now that this is clear, u pointed out that we wouldn't be able to use our full potential in squads duo to high dps. But that wasn't the issue either, since we never said we wouldn't get aggro with that. We just said that we are a better DD class than fist bms or archers. We can control our Dps very well and i don't believe that Fist Bms(alltho the can) are going all out on bosses when squaded(if Barb tanks). If the Barb is a pro and a Bm can go all out, then we sins can aswell.
If u say that Archers are able to go all out without pulling aggro then they shouldn't be regarded as DDs at all. I don't believe an archer won't pull aggro when going all out. So in the end all DD classes have to hold back depending on the situation. That means this point is invalid aswell.

So stop flaming and accept that we are the best class for DD, Whether its usefull or achievable for most of the players isn't important.

(i somehow got the feeling i just made this whole situation worse)

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

(i somehow got the feeling i just made this whole situation worse)

Pretty much b:beatup
Better be quiet, just go lvl in game, and wait until tideborn get complete skill then start argue again after that. b:shutupb:beg
Btw, these thread rank was around 60th on most reply, from 500+ thread.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Giodia. First of all i never acted emo. I love this class and i never regretted it that i made a sin. I was simply worried that sins might be useless in squads since for latter lvls the other classes do just fine (they did before the expansion and obviously doin now).
The whole terade started with the claim that sins can outdps an archer or a fist bm. At first u flamed like crazy turning every point back even when it was clear with the knowledge, people have.
Now in this Thread u suddenly said it like " so what if sins are the best dps, do u wan't a trophy?". In the end we got the fact that sins have the potential to be the best DPS class in PWI.
That most of the players aren't capable of achieving it because of financial issues, wasn't in descussion. The Fist Bm was regarded as the best DPS even though not every Fist Bm could afford all the gear to get 5dps. We were always talking of the maximum capabilities of a class.

Now that this is clear, u pointed out that we wouldn't be able to use our full potential in squads duo to high dps. But that wasn't the issue either, since we never said we wouldn't get aggro with that. We just said that we are a better DD class than fist bms or archers. We can control our Dps very well and i don't believe that Fist Bms(alltho the can) are going all out on bosses when squaded(if Barb tanks). If the Barb is a pro and a Bm can go all out, then we sins can aswell.
If u say that Archers are able to go all out without pulling aggro then they shouldn't be regarded as DDs at all. I don't believe an archer won't pull aggro when going all out. So in the end all DD classes have to hold back depending on the situation. That means this point is invalid aswell.

So stop flaming and accept that we are the best class for DD, Whether its usefull or achievable for most of the players isn't important.

(i somehow got the feeling i just made this whole situation worse)

Drop your arrogance. I'm getting so sick and freaking tired of hearing you badger on about your DPS. Seriously.

If you can't use your full DPS then why does it even matter?

Answer me that.

Before you run around saying "WE'RE A BETTER DD CUZ WE CAN DO MORE DAMAGE" you tell me when you can actually, truly use that DPS in a squad without jeopardising something. You can't? Precisely. Exactly. You have to nerf in a squad as much as the next DD - because if you don't control your damage and you steal aggro and die, you're a bad DD anyway.

I couldn't care less if you had the best DPS in the game or not, your attitude absolutely sucks big ones and you have even admitted you can't use your full DPS in a squad anyway.

Are you starting to realise why people dislike you? And this thread? And Tideborns in general? Your attitude absolutely stinks and you're arguing about the most pointless **** ever when it comes to being in a squad in a general squad situation that requires teamwork.

If you want to talk about PvP, fine, go ahead and claim you have the best DPS. But if you're going to talk about a general squad situation, please kindly shut the hell up and GTFO. If you go all out like so many sins I squad with and watch, you will steal, and like all those other sins (and psychics too) you will die.

Learn when your DPS counts and when to control your damage or please GTFO. This game has enough oracle noob archers/wizards/BMs at this point without Tideborns who don't know how the hell to DD being around.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

recast nirvana legs and adv revenge recast claws

theres the bm counterpoint

also dex is a static dmage add while strength has a multiplying effect of weapon damage last i looked

imo it all comes down to 2 things at 100+

dagger vs fist refine rate

and possible animation speed cap

if those work right sins greater than bm's at 100+ but before that they have vastly lower DPS due to the way intreval stacks

still havent seen you answer this one fishie

also keep in mind that

a)sins can gain full spakrks near instantly

b)sin 2 spark skills suck compared to the bm skills that do the same for 1 spark

c)aftercast time does exist as does server lag and no skills are truely *instant cast* just look at dimond sutra and marrows for your comparison

and yes i really am laughing at these sins ...like now thaksies waffles for the amusement

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear

If you can't use your full DPS then why does it even matter?

When we claimed that we have the best DPS we got flamed and everyone said how BMs and Archers are better. I just merely said that even if we have to hold back in squads so do BMs and Archers. In the end we are all the same. I never said Sins are the best to squad, The first thing i posted about squads with sins is some suggestion what to do if sins are squaded with u. Thats it. So try to read and get an overview of the whole situation.

arrogance? the only thing i said is that we are the best dps. and that its not very usefull in squads is mentioned by me aswell so tell me where is the arrogance? just confirming that we can get the highest DPS? oh please, either u misread or u didn't even try to read my post.

and about the whole hating me thing. well honestly if i see ppl flaming and trying to shut up players(who btw have another high lvl chara) who play a sin, not raelizing that they themselves are claiming to be the best and an ownage class, well i don't care. it would be another thing if i were the one ranting here and not listening to other opinions while the others are calm and friendly

BIaze_ - Heavens Tear

ok ok to settle this BMs + barbs + Sins + archers (if they got a mental fist build) can stay in demon spark for there rest of there life if they wanted too.
well, Sins will when they get demon spark.

we all hit fast and hard, 2/4 depends on the boss, can take the hits

but what bms can do and what other classes cant do is Demon spark > Cyclone > get enough chi for hf and have OP amped damage + a quick attack rate so this might just give them the edge over the rest of the classes.

/closethread

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear

lol now we're at it again....but honestly..u know what.....Who cares? the first thing is to have fun and i do have fun with my class...and i bet those who rolled a sin do aswell. thats it. everyone plays depending on his style

/closethread

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I just merely said that even if we have to hold back in squads so do BMs and Archers.

Depends on the boss TBH and the situation
Ie: Like last night in BH Abbadon the Cleric BB'ed due to bosses AOE (apart from me it was a 90's squad book hunting) So My BM could go full out, knowing if I stole agro then I could tank the boss myself.

BIaze_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

but what bms can do and what other classes cant do is Demon spark > Cyclone > get enough chi for hf and have OP amped damage + a quick attack rate so this might just give them the edge over the rest of the classes.

Im pretty sure they dont stack. If you Cyclone it will overwrite the speed buff from Demon spark making the att/s less. Better off Sparking then using Chi pot if want to HF

BIaze_ - Heavens Tear

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Im pretty sure they dont stack. If you Cyclone it will overwrite the speed buff from Demon spark making the att/s less. Better off Sparking then using Chi pot if want to HF

well if they dont then this saves us an extra second or 2 to get in atleast 5-10 more attacks, but if a 90+ demon bm could confirm it would be great.

although i seen bms use it in within demon spark

still we all hit 5 attacks a second its just that if everyone starst with 0 chi BMs will get extra advantage with cyclone and if everyone starts with full chi then im sure everyone will do the same if not more with certain debuffs each class can do.

overall we all give bosses a good beatin

Joshcja - Sanctuary

BIaze_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

well if they dont then this saves us an extra second or 2 to get in atleast 5-10 more attacks, but if a 90+ demon bm could confirm it would be great.

although i seen bms use it in within demon spark

still we all hit 5 attacks a second its just that if everyone starst with 0 chi BMs will get extra advantage with cyclone and if everyone starts with full chi then im sure everyone will do the same if not more with certain debuffs each class can do.

overall we all give bosses a good beatin

dosent stack

^*points at my last post* still waiting for the fishies to top it

Kristoph - Lost City

lol this discussion is still going?


Both classes can reach 5 atks/sec, highest DPS = constant triple spark/melee with genie skills maybe, if you want DPS you won't use any damn 2 spark skills. That's just stupid. Sins have a higher critrate and can increase their crit damage half the time, and both get the same genie skills/chi gain.


Endgame potential = Sin > BM.