The enemies that CAN be controlled are weak enough that it's just faster to blow them up. The enemies that are dangerous enough that you WANT to control them are control immune. And then the real challenges are the bosses, where control is completely useless.
But then when CW's focus on damage, they get bashed because they're suppose to be about "control".
In a way, it's like the old problems where DC's didn't need to heal, GF's didn't need to tank, and TR's didn't do as much damage. What makes the class unique feels neutered, so we just go back to the old standby of big AOE damage.
And then thread after thread pops up about how CWs do too much damage and should be nerfed.
It's lose/lose for us.
That's the raw deal. We're hosed either way.
Imagine what would happen if Cryptic cut CW damage in half, but made our CC spells unresistable in PvP? You know...actually being "control" wizards? The amount of rage would be indescribable. So right now, almost all of our CC abilities are incredibly weak in PvP because a) they break very, very quick. Often times CC will break as soon as the casting animation is done and b) every class has so much on-demand CC immunity, there's very little opportunity to actually CC someone. The best you can do is occasionally get a Entangling Force off right at the start of the fight, but even that's rare versus most classes. And stacking chill is nearly useless because even the tiniest bit of momentary CC immunity clears the stacks.
So what are we left with? Damage. That's it. That's all we can bring to the table.
And as far as PvE? Do you remember before Module 1? What was the most common build for a CW? The Singbot. Our main job in dungeons was to build AP as fast as possible, then chain cast Singularity to group up all the mobs, keep them controlled and let the other classes burn down the big groups of mobs. But that got nerfed. Apparently being able to relibably control dungeon adds made things "too easy". So what are we left with? Damage.
That's it. That's our only fallback because in both PvP and PvE there is incredible resistance to actually letting a CC class shine when it comes to CC. No pun intended.
Think about it this way.
What if all the "hard" mobs and bosses were immune to critical hits? How much fun would that be for Rogues, Rangers, and GWFs?
What if all the attacks from "hard" mobs and bosses were unblockable? How much fun would that be for Guardian Fighters (and Paladins)?
What if you couldn't heal or mitigate with powers any of the damage from "hard" mobs or bosses? How much fun would that be for Clerics?
And what if "hard" mobs and bosses were completely immune to any effect involving lifesteal or health stealing powers? What would Warlocks think?
But you know what? As a CW using control powers in dungeons, you know what I see ALL THE STINKING TIME? Immune. Immune. Immune. Boss fight? It's nothing but immune. Immune. Immune.
Even my guide on CWs, that I know is extremely popular around here, is actually a tongue and cheek dig at the class. Death is the best crowd control. If it sounds ironic, that's because it is.
We have been so painted into a corner with our class, that the marquee element of a control wizard, control, has been gutted and mitigated to a side effect of doing damage.
At the end of the day, the reason you see CW's going for all out damage is because that's all we have.
^ they already did that. they nerfed CW dps by over 75% and beefed freeze to make up for it. then everyone cried like babies with a full diaper "CONSTANT FREEZE WTEFFF!!!!" so they nerfed freeze.
so now apparently CW aren't supposed to control, aren't supposed to DPS. what are they supposed to be again? oh yea they're tanks now, because shield..... #SMF
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
So what are we left with? Damage. That's it. That's all we can bring to the table.
At the end of the day, the reason you see CW's going for all out damage is because that's all we have.
Before I even start to comment on the rest, this is wrong in so many ways it's unbelievable. A Warlock brings nothing but damage, not a control wizard, not by a long shot.
Let's look at just a few wizard powers.
Steal Time – AoE damage and stun. In mastery slot gives combat advantage and speed bonus.
Icy Terrian – AoE damage, slows any mob that enters the area.
Shard Of The Endless Avalanche – AoE damage, prones mobs it sweeps over and those it explodes into.
Icy Rays roots, Ray of Enfeeblement debuffs, Repel pushes mobs away, etc.
Compared to someone like a warlock that has......Damage...more Damage...a Prone....more Damage...
But no, you're right, a control wizard brings NOTHING but damage, it's “all it has”. Come on I have a CW and a SW and know that's a bold face lie.
But you know what? As a CW using control powers in dungeons, you know what I see ALL THE STINKING TIME? Immune. Immune. Immune. Boss fight? It's nothing but immune. Immune. Immune.
.
Because God forbid something has a downside.
A healer can't heal someone that gets hit by a one shot.
A GWF/HR/SW can't prone a prone immune target.
All this reads to me is “I want to be able to be good at everything all the time”.
What if all the "hard" mobs and bosses were immune to critical hits? How much fun would that be for Rogues, Rangers, and GWFs?
What if all the attacks from "hard" mobs and bosses were unblockable? How much fun would that be for Guardian Fighters (and Paladins)?
What if you couldn't heal or mitigate with powers any of the damage from "hard" mobs or bosses? How much fun would that be for Clerics?
And what if "hard" mobs and bosses were completely immune to any effect involving lifesteal or health stealing powers? What would Warlocks think?
.
Think about it this way, you're making a huge fallacious argument. In one instance you can't use a control power on a boss, and that somehow makes all your control worthless because?
Harrow storm can't prone most bosses or larger mobs, does that make it useless? How about take-down?
What about Hawk shot in a small fighting area?
What about Path Of Blades against a single boss that has no mobs?
How about a cleric trying to heal against any one shot attack?
You should have to change to adapt to a situation. Fighting a boss? Use Shield and Ray of Enfeeblement and Icy Rays, and not Icy Terrain or Entangling Force. Each power should have a use somewhere, not a “one slot fits all”.
A CW can adapt from mob spam, to single target, to a boss fight. So again, what's your point? That you have to actually change how you play depending on the situation? Yay?
Imagine what would happen if Cryptic cut CW damage in half, but made our CC spells unresistable in PvP? You know...actually being "control" wizards? The amount of rage would be indescribable. So right now, almost all of our CC abilities are incredibly weak in PvP because a) they break very, very quick. Often times CC will break as soon as the casting animation is done and b) every class has so much on-demand CC immunity, there's very little opportunity to actually CC someone. The best you can do is occasionally get a Entangling Force off right at the start of the fight, but even that's rare versus most classes. And stacking chill is nearly useless because even the tiniest bit of momentary CC immunity clears the stacks.
And as far as PvE? Do you remember before Module 1? What was the most common build for a CW? The Singbot. Our main job in dungeons was to build AP as fast as possible, then chain cast Singularity to group up all the mobs, keep them controlled and let the other classes burn down the big groups of mobs. But that got nerfed. Apparently being able to relibably control dungeon adds made things "too easy". So what are we left with? Damage.
That's it. That's our only fallback because in both PvP and PvE there is incredible resistance to actually letting a CC class shine when it comes to CC. No pun intended.
We have been so painted into a corner with our class, that the marquee element of a control wizard, control, has been gutted and mitigated to a side effect of doing damage.
.
Here's the issue you will have any time you bring in control, whether it be stuns, prones, dazes, freezes, being able to manipulate movement, whatever you want to pick, is that you have to think about how it affects the enjoyment of the other players.
How fun is it to fight a group of mobs that are permanently controlled and can't ever fight back? Or for PvP another team that cant ever fight back?
The other issue is how balanced is it? And how does it affect the other group members?
Examples
Why would you need a tank if everything is controlled all the time? Nothing can hit you, every mob is in the right position where you need them, so why bring a tank? Which then leads to why would you need a healer if nothing can ever get you? Why do you need any other class? A CW can just control everything and deal damage in a nice AoE so why bother to bring anything else if you can keep mobs controlled 24/7?
Which also leads to how would you ever lose? How do you create content that can challenge people if they can't ever lose because as soon as you see a mob it gets controlled, can't do anything, and sooner or later dies without touching the party.
This is why in Magic they had to add so many cards (Especially to Green) that read “This card cannot be countered” since a Blue mage was able to simply counter any card you played, had perfect control so to say, and it was extremely frustrating to play against along with being way too powerful. It was both unfun and imbalanced, so it changed. You can look at Hearthstone “Freeze mages” and you'll find it's the same logic. This situation is no different.
Also again, a CW does not bring “nothing to the table” except damage, especially not renegades. Buffs, debuffs, control, are all things that the CW brings. Can you even name another class that brings nearly as much control as the CW?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2015
Slintash, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
It's simply impossible for Crytpic to give CW's the type of control that would make a "control" wizard viable. That's why we have what we have now. Damage wizards with a side of control, instead of control wizards with a side of damage.
At the end of the day, people don't WANT to see real "control" wizards. They just want to see CW's nerfed.
It's simply impossible for Crytpic to give CW's the type of control that would make a "control" wizard viable. That's why we have what we have now. Damage wizards with a side of control, instead of control wizards with a side of damage.
At the end of the day, people don't WANT to see real "control" wizards. They just want to see CW's nerfed.
Actually you arn't talking about what im talking about at all. You lied about CW having "nothing but damage" and can't refute me at all.
Control can and does exist. It exists in this game, in magic, in hearthstone, and in many other games. That does not mean that it makes you a god. It balanced, it has mobs it cannot affect, it has downsides, so again what is your point?
If you "agreed" with me and were talking about the same thing as me you wouldnt of said that CWs cannot control, that they bring nothing to the party but damage.
How about this, why don't you tell me what a "real control wizard" is then. Since apparently every ability having both damage and some sort of control/buff/debuff isnt control enough for you.
It's simply impossible for Crytpic to give CW's the type of control that would make a "control" wizard viable. That's why we have what we have now. Damage wizards with a side of control, instead of control wizards with a side of damage.
At the end of the day, people don't WANT to see real "control" wizards. They just want to see CW's nerfed.
I don't want CWs nerfed, I just want other classes buffed. I think we have to face the reality that in mod 6 there are core classes that are actually viable and necessary to success in pve and pvp: cw, dc, tr. The other classes are filler: hr, gwf,gf, sw, and (probably) op. The way things are now, the filler classes need to be buffed to core status. And not buffed a lot. I think GWF and OP have a chance to be tweaked to core in mod 6 still, and maybe even HR, but GF and SW will almost certainly remain filler. If that is how it turns out and if some other issues are resolved or at least damage-controlled and we have to wait till mod 7 for the filler to be core, well that will have to be good enough.
Just saying this to spell out my intent in saying what I do about the classes. I think cw and tr and dc are were they need to be. The other classes are not. My point is never nerf, but buff. Just enough.
The newly buffed zones like WoD are ridiculously difficult even for the CW. 28 pages of nerf CWs is dumb, why do this every mod. The new zones need to be toned down AND some classes need to be balanced up (buffed) to be more in line with CW, DC, TR and possibly the HR.
aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited March 2015
What Zerg is saying is without our damage, our CC sucks. Against the CC immune, we have nothing but damage and a single target debuff that isn't so great.
Steal Time: It's great CC, but mostly because it's great damage.
Icy Terrain, used with other chilling powers has good control, but is used mainly to proc storm spell and to buff our damage..
Shard isn't worth using without the old damage. The control it offers isn't worth it. Why? Because they're going to stand up in a second and they're going to be very mad at us.
Icy Rays is single target. I never use it against something that can be controlled. It's used only for damage. The root is a side effect that is barely noticeable.
Repel is useless unless there is a fatal cliff to push them over. One of the best ways to get kicked from a party is to use Repel.
Harrow storm can't prone most bosses or larger mobs, does that make it useless?
If it doesn't do a lot of damage, it's useless against them.
What Zerg is saying is without our damage, our CC sucks. Against the CC immune, we have nothing but damage and a single target debuff that isn't so great.
Steal Time: It's great CC, but mostly because it's great damage.
Icy Terrain, used with other chilling powers has good control, but is used mainly to proc storm spell and to buff our damage..
Shard isn't worth using without the old damage. The control it offers isn't worth it. Why? Because they're going to stand up in a second and they're going to be very mad at us.
Icy Rays is single target. I never use it against something that can be controlled. It's used only for damage. The root is a side effect that is barely noticeable.
Repel is useless unless there is a fatal cliff to push them over. One of the best ways to get kicked from a party is to use Repel.
You mean to tell me they all do exactly what I say and provide CC and not just damage, thereby proving my point that CW doesnt "just bring damage and nothing else"? Thanks.
Also most of your "explanations" are, "It's great except for X time". Not every power is going to be good in every situation, why is that so hard for some people to understand?
And against CC immune targets you cant use CC....you dont say!!! It's almost like that's the whole point of them being Immune. You're saying nothing new, you're not refuting me at all, all you're saying is "yes we have a downside but I dont like it". Well too bad?
If it doesn't do a lot of damage, it's useless against them.
Nice quote mining. Also it has nothing to do with the damage, but the prone. Harrow cannot prone a boss, along with most prones, and it's a part of alot of classes such as the GWF. So why should CW be allowed to use CC on bosses and not any other class? Again, it's more of the "I want to be able to do everything" attitude I keep seeing.
aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited March 2015
You mean to tell me they all do exactly what I say and provide CC and not just damage, thereby proving my point that CW doesnt "just bring damage and nothing else"? Thanks.
They do what they do. Nobody is denying it. Not even Zerg. If those powers didn't do a lot of damage damage, we wouldn't use them and we'd never get into groups.
Also most of your "explanations" are, "It's great except for X time". Not every power is going to be good in every situation, why is that so hard for some people to understand?
We all understand it.
Nice quote mining. Also it has nothing to do with the damage, but the prone. Harrow cannot prone a boss, along with most prones, and it's a part of alot of classes such as the GWF. So why should CW be allowed to use CC on bosses and not any other class? Again, it's more of the "I want to be able to do everything" attitude I keep seeing.
I have no idea what Harrow is. My SW is only lvl 30 and is only used for professions and invoking. But I daresay that if it doesn't do a lot of damage, it's a waste against CC immune mobs, just like every CW power would be if we didn't do a lot of damage.
Is that hard to understand?
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited March 2015
CW defensive mechanism has something noone bothered to say.Guardian fighter hold shift to block.Rogue press tab to stealth.Great weapon fighter press tab for determination.CLeric use an astral shield.BUT wizard automitigate damage.Without press a button mitigate damage i dont care if lose a control or a damage encounter i care automitigate is 100% passive mechanism.
And against CC immune targets you cant use CC....you dont say!!! It's almost like that's the whole point of them being Immune. You're saying nothing new, you're not refuting me at all, all you're saying is "yes we have a downside but I dont like it". Well too bad?
You missed the core point, friend.
You understand what the downside to a Control Wizard is...and that is CC immunity.
You talk about mitigating our downsides? That's exactly what CWs have been doing. Let me walk you through it.
Why would you want to CC a mob? Because it's dangerous to the group, right?
But most of the dangerous mobs in dungeons also happen to be CC immune. Same with bosses, which are also the most dangerous and challenging fights in the dungeon.
The dungeon mobs that AREN'T immune to CC tend to be weak and die quickly.
So now we have a quandary here. How should I build my character?
If the mobs I really want to take out of the fight are also CC immune, then how do I quickly take them out of the fight? More damage.
If the mobs I'm not really worried about die quickly under heavy fire, then how do I quickly eliminate them? More damage.
If the boss mobs are totally immune to CC and those spells have no effect on them, what do I need to bring to boss fights? More damage.
So you see where we're at? The current meta demands that in order to maximize your effectiveness, you need to dial the damage number way up, and then take whatever CC is tied to that.
Hence the cheekiness of my build. Death is the best crowd control. If I want to bring the most effective CC to a group, that CC comes in one ultimate form. Death.
Hopefully that shines some light on why most CW's tend to go all in on damage and just take whatever CC comes along as a bonus. Because ultimately this game offers very little reward to the CW's that do heavily invest in CC.
You understand what the downside to a Control Wizard is...and that is CC immunity.
You talk about mitigating our downsides? That's exactly what CWs have been doing. Let me walk you through it.
Why would you want to CC a mob? Because it's dangerous to the group, right?
But most of the dangerous mobs in dungeons also happen to be CC immune. Same with bosses, which are also the most dangerous and challenging fights in the dungeon.
The dungeon mobs that AREN'T immune to CC tend to be weak and die quickly.
The down side of any X is immunity. Not just control from CWs, but prones, even in some games spells or physical damage. It is designed that way for a reason, one of which is to force class variety, another of which is to keep power levels in check. If there were no control immune mobs we go right back to what i said earlier on what happens when anything and everything can be controlled 24/7.
Furthermore, this is not something that just CWs face, why would I use Avalanche of Steel, Take Down, Frontline Surge, so on so forth, against a boss such as Valindra that is immune to prones? You've yet to give me one good reason on why a boss or a “immune” mob then “needs” to be affected by control powers. You're not refuting me still at all, all you are saying is you want to be able to control All of the time in any situation, that you dont want to adapt like every other class does in every single event. A ranger doesnt use AoE powers when fighting one boss same as they dont use powers like Aimed Shot against 100 imps.
Better yet, tell me how this will work in your mind, that we can use control powers such as Take Down or Shard Of The Endless Avalanche on a boss and the boss actually gets a chance to fight back.
The next issue after that is why are you so focused on fighting bosses? You are a controller, your entire job is to control mobs, to help out the party in a different way. Why do you want to do the exact same role as a ranger or as a rogue? They're all suppose to have different roles and different strengths. Why are you not focused on all the mobs during the boss fights and instead want to focus on the boss?
After all that we arrive at an issue of content not of class. If all of the non-immune mobs are too weak then that has Nothing to do with class balance. Suggest making more larger mobs that can be controlled or that have 25-75% resistance to control instead of being immune. All those issues with content do not mean that you need huge amounts of damage buffs or need to make your control powers have effects on immune mobs.
And finally, part of being a controller in D/D is AoE damage. They are suppose to deal large amounts of damage to “trash mobs” so this is fine. What is not fine is when a CW can solo entire mob groups that include larger CC immune mobs and kill them just with their damage and no control.
So now we have a quandary here. How should I build my character?
If the mobs I really want to take out of the fight are also CC immune, then how do I quickly take them out of the fight? More damage.
If the mobs I'm not really worried about die quickly under heavy fire, then how do I quickly eliminate them? More damage.
If the boss mobs are totally immune to CC and those spells have no effect on them, what do I need to bring to boss fights? More damage.
So you see where we're at? The current meta demands that in order to maximize your effectiveness, you need to dial the damage number way up, and then take whatever CC is tied to that.
You know, you could always just do other things. And again, you're just proving my point that you want to be able to do literally everything. You want to take out the big mobs, the little mobs, and the boss, I'm curious what you think the rest of your party is doing in this instance.
The next issue is your back on a content issue and not a class issue. Can't ever control anything? Then ask for more content or provide ideas for mobs that can be controlled, not make excuses for having huge amounts of damage and still be able to control when needed. No class can control or prone targets that are immune, this is not an issue for just CWs, but for HR's, GWFs, and basically any class or power that attempts to control or prone.
After all that you then have to accept that different classes will be better at different dungeons because the dungeons and bosses themselves need to be different. Sometimes a boss will have 100 mobs that endlessly spawn and you'll be able to be the champion that keeps them all controlled while the rest of your party kills the boss and keeps everyone healed. Sometimes it'll be just a single powerful boss with no mobs, and you'll have to adapt and not be able to use CC at all, and that's fine it keeps the game with a sense of variety. Sometimes they'll even be one larger boss and the mobs will be CC immune like in valindra because you're meant to kill her and the mobs are more of a timer than something you're actually meant to fight.
Basically what Im saying is this – Suggest to the Devs to make more varied dungeons/events so that CC becomes more important, if you feel it is undervalued, while also accepting that you can't expect to walk into every dungeon/event and play them all the exact same way using CC all of the time. Sometimes you'll be using alot of single target powers, other times you'll be using alot of crowd control powers.
So you see where we're at? The current meta demands that in order to maximize your effectiveness, you need to dial the damage number way up, and then take whatever CC is tied to that.
Hence the cheekiness of my build. Death is the best crowd control. If I want to bring the most effective CC to a group, that CC comes in one ultimate form. Death.
Hopefully that shines some light on why most CW's tend to go all in on damage and just take whatever CC comes along as a bonus. Because ultimately this game offers very little reward to the CW's that do heavily invest in CC.
Which is again still a content issue and not a class issue. The point people are making is that CW's are dealing too much damage while still being able to support others with buffs/debuffs/control. The issue people are stating is that a CW can still do more damage than say a SW, when a SW is built just for damage. That is the issue people are talking about, the class itself, not the content.
Right now, even with all the CC immune you are complaining about, CW's dominate. They deal the most damage in a variety of situations, on a variety of modes (PvP, PvE), on a variety of dungeons, even when they are so “crippled” that they can't use a CC power on say a boss or on a golem. How do you not realize that it is an issue that you believe CW's cannot control and that is suppose to be one of their main roles, but can still face-tank most content, do the most damage, and there's somehow not an issue?
Everything is somehow fine, that a CW can deal the most damage, while still supporting the party in other ways. Meanwhile classes such as SW that do only damage not only cannot keep up with CW on live, even with a broken set that does more damage than most of their powers combined, but are getting huge nerfs, while CW's are mostly unaffected. Are powers such as Tyrannical Threat overpowered? Yes, and it deserved to be nerfed by half, yet at the same time powers like Sudden Storm are dealing huge amounts of damage and is staying the same. That is what people are having an issue with, a controller class becoming more and more powerful in the DPS department and leaving the rest in the dust.
Anyway, this could go on for a while so I'll simply leave it at that.
why so much mimimi? this is not about opinion, is about the history of the game.
cw should
1- lose dodge
2 - lose shield
3 - lose half of the damage.
and lets see what happens if the class only have the best cc of the game/a lot of utility and range.
if, after that, the class be dead in one module, in one single module, well, welcome to the team. all classes know what is that, less cw.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited March 2015
Furthermore, this is not something that just CWs face, why would I use Avalanche of Steel, Take Down, Frontline Surge, so on so forth, against a boss such as Valindra that is immune to prones?
Until that horrible nerf, that I still wish they would reverse, Takedown and FLS did good damage against CC immune mobs, just like the CW powers we don't want nerfed too.
The next issue after that is why are you so focused on fighting bosses? You are a controller, your entire job is to control mobs, to help out the party in a different way.
If you don't want to agree that damage is a form of control, then I'll say that control is NOT our entire job. A clerics job is not just to heal. Thast's why they have great debuffs and great damage, that sometimes compares to CWs. A GFs job is not just to hold aggro (though they need more damage).
Why do you want to do the exact same role as a ranger or as a rogue?
Then why do they want roots and smoke bomb? Are CWS upset that other classes have control powers? Not that I've ever heard.
After all that you then have to accept that different classes will be better at different dungeons because the dungeons and bosses themselves need to be different.
We do understand that. We don't complain when other classes out damage us, as long as it's not because we got heavily nerfed.
What are we supposed to do when fighting CC immune mobs? Stay in the last room until everyone is done, or damage them instead? What does a Cleric do when nobody needs healing? He debuffs and damages.
Everything is somehow fine, that a CW can deal the most damage, while still supporting the party in other ways. Meanwhile classes such as SW that do only damage not only cannot keep up with CW on live, even with a broken set that does more damage than most of their powers combined, but are getting huge nerfs, while CW's are mostly unaffected.
What kind of warlock can't keep up with a CWs damage? I admit that I haven't done many T2s since the SW came out, but in SoT, LoL and Tia, SWs smoke me. At 19K, I was invited to a Tia group when someone saw my high DPS, so I assume I'm not considered to be a scrub. They parse every run, and there is a 16K HR who beats me every time. #1 is usually a SW. Yes, sometimes #1 is a CW, but not even most of the time.
From how far away can you cast TT? A CW has to be real close to melee range to use Sudden Storm, and it's easy to miss with it. Can you miss with TT? I don't play an SW, so I don't know. I am in no way in favor of nerfing SWs. Any incoming nerf on them should be fought against as hard as we're fighting against being nerfed. I've certainly never seen any 30 page threads calling for SW nerfs.
Until that horrible nerf, that I still wish they would reverse, Takedown and FLS did good damage against CC immune mobs, just like the CW powers we don't want nerfed too.
Using a prone power against a prone immune target is the same as using a CC power against a CC immune target. They do damage, and they do not prone/CC, making them less effective than normal. They're other options, use them.
If you don't want to agree that damage is a form of control, then I'll say that control is NOT our entire job. A clerics job is not just to heal. Thast's why they have great debuffs and great damage, that sometimes compares to CWs. A GFs job is not just to hold aggro (though they need more damage).
Except, I wrote this:
“And finally, part of being a controller in D/D is AoE damage.”
Then why do they want roots and smoke bomb? Are CWS upset that other classes have control powers? Not that I've ever heard.
Tell me, you are really going to compare a root or a single power (Smoke bomb) to an entire array of control powers that the CW has? The classes have different roles, they have different power levels in terms of DPS, Defence, Health, so on so forth. A control wizard can control mobs infinitely better than a DC or a HR or a TR.
What are we supposed to do when fighting CC immune mobs? Stay in the last room until everyone is done, or damage them instead? What does a Cleric do when nobody needs healing? He debuffs and damages.
Same thing I said before, multiple times now, slot different powers. Use ray of enfeeblement, use shield, use single target powers, control the mobs, or keep complaining that you “can't do anything”, it's honestly your choice at this point, I cant feed you a solution you arn't willing to accept.
What kind of warlock can't keep up with a CWs damage? I admit that I haven't done many T2s since the SW came out, but in SoT, LoL and Tia, SWs smoke me. At 19K, I was invited to a Tia group when someone saw my high DPS, so I assume I'm not considered to be a scrub. They parse every run, and there is a 16K HR who beats me every time. #1 is usually a SW. Yes, sometimes #1 is a CW, but not even most of the time.
From how far away can you cast TT? A CW has to be real close to melee range to use Sudden Storm, and it's easy to miss with it. Can you miss with TT? I don't play an SW, so I don't know. I am in no way in favor of nerfing SWs. Any incoming nerf on them should be fought against as hard as we're fighting against being nerfed. I've certainly never seen any 30 page threads calling for SW nerfs.
No actually, we should not fight the TT nerf because it is OP. TT works as follows, you start the animation, which takes a good 3 seconds, then you mark each mob/boss, takes another 1 or so, and then after that you blast away at one of them and hope they are all within 15' range of each other so the damage gets linked. TT then deals 40% damage to ALL units within that 15' range, meaning if you marked 3 mobs it is a 120% AoE damage. To put it simply I can solo an entire cleric spawn in Tiamat on my SW, that should NOT be possible on any class.
The other thing I said was how the armour set for SW is what makes it so viable, which again is “gone” in mod 6. Take dreadtheft, it ticks 24 times in one cast, and the armour set deals 2k damage per tick, so thats 48k damage just from the armour before you even take into account of any other damage source, powers, etc. Now link that with TT and you're doing that damage in an AoE to every target around the mark(ed) one(s). ALL of that power is disappearing on mod 6, think about how large that nerf is, compared to CW which is only losing the HV set. TT also only works if they're 2 or more targets, so it is useless on bosses such as lostmouth since he is the only target.
You also won't find a 30 page thread asking for nerfs on a SW because it's one of the weaker classes in the game EVEN with all the bugged powers in it's favour such as the armour set. There definitely wont be any nerf SW threads at all when this goes live since SW is very pitiful on preview.
If something is broken, you fix it, you don't go and make everyone else just as broken. We didn't buff everyone to the level of a GWF back in mod 2/3 because they were broken (Due to some buggy powers mostly), the same needs to happen anytime any class steps above and beyond the power of other classes, whether it be in PvE, PvP, or both.
I don't want CWs nerfed, I just want other classes buffed. I think we have to face the reality that in mod 6 there are core classes that are actually viable and necessary to success in pve and pvp: cw, dc, tr. The other classes are filler: hr, gwf,gf, sw, and (probably) op. The way things are now, the filler classes need to be buffed to core status. And not buffed a lot. I think GWF and OP have a chance to be tweaked to core in mod 6 still, and maybe even HR, but GF and SW will almost certainly remain filler. If that is how it turns out and if some other issues are resolved or at least damage-controlled and we have to wait till mod 7 for the filler to be core, well that will have to be good enough.
Just saying this to spell out my intent in saying what I do about the classes. I think cw and tr and dc are were they need to be. The other classes are not. My point is never nerf, but buff. Just enough.
Easy to answer.
All those control spell have (pick at least one): long casting animation or casting delay, need to be at melee range, take full duration to be effective, single target (aka not AoE) or have targeting restriction.
> Shard need 2 targets to explode for the prone and damage, and it take a long time to load. Damage have been nerfed very badly.
> Icy terrain need it's full 6s duration for being an effective control spell and it need to be at melee range. It hit like a wet noodle; It's used to proc things.
> Steal time need to be charged (stop the charging put it on cooldown for 4s), it require to be at melee range and the stun duration is not that long. Positive point, it's damage are good for a control spell.
> all other spell are single target or damage spell (damage resist debuff = more damage, not control).
> Even the new Icy Veins is limited at melee range.
That's why I ask for a way for mage to control more than one mob at range. And I speak of mob, not player. The distinction can be made to as effective or not working on player's character.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Using a prone power against a prone immune target is the same as using a CC power against a CC immune target. They do damage, and they do not prone/CC, making them less effective than normal. They're other options, use them.
You keep bringing up the prone thing, and I don't know why. Is there a "Prone Weapon Fighter" in the game that I'm missing? Is there some argument out there that GWFs should ONLY prone stuff and that's it?
Because there sure as heck is the argument here that CW's should only be about control. And that's where you're missing the point.
I'm not saying that CWs need to be the best at everything, only that they should be able to contribute in every situation. Just like every other class.
A GF needs to be able to tank every mob in the game. A DC needs to be able to heal all the damage in the game. And the HR, TR and GWF need to be able to DPS every mob in the game.
If people want to make control THE thing for Wizards, I'm 100% fine with it. That would be awesome. In fact, over two years ago that's why I feel in love with the class while I was leveling up. I didn't do a ton of damage, and all the AOE didn't come until later, but it was a lot of fun to dance around the mobs, being strategic with my casting in order to keep things locked down as much as I could. Leveling up you rarely dealt with control immune mobs, and even when you did it was only while they were performing certain moves, and not a blanket immunity.
But once you get to 60, CC immunity is incredibly common. It's the single most common immunity in the game. Which means it's just not effective for CW's to focus on control. Especially when Cryptic spent the first year and a half of the game nerfing our CC abilities.
Singularity use to be one of the best team-oriented control spells in the game. When's the last time you saw a top end CW casting singularity? You don't, because Cryptic decided that a spell that allowed one class to pull all the enemies together so that it was easier for the entire team to burn them down wasn't what they wanted. And the CW community protested like crazy about the move. But here we are.
So unless that changes, and CC has SOME effect on EVERYTHING, whether it's an actual CC effect or just a debilitating debuff, then there's no point in arguing that a control wizard should be all about the control.
Same thing I said before, multiple times now, slot different powers. Use ray of enfeeblement, use shield, use single target powers, control the mobs, or keep complaining that you “can't do anything”, it's honestly your choice at this point, I cant feed you a solution you arn't willing to accept.
Every power you mentioned the control lasts for less than 2 seconds no matter how much control bonus you have, then you have one angry mob chasing you while all those same powers are on a stupid high CD, I guess you would rather spend all your time picking up a crappy control spec wizard. If what you suggest happened you would kick that CW for being a **** that didnt know how to play his CW.
The other thing I said was how the armour set for SW is what makes it so viable, which again is “gone” in mod 6. Take dreadtheft, it ticks 24 times in one cast, and the armour set deals 2k damage per tick, so thats 48k damage just from the armour before you even take into account of any other damage source, powers, etc. Now link that with TT and you're doing that damage in an AoE to every target around the mark(ed) one(s). ALL of that power is disappearing on mod 6, think about how large that nerf is, compared to CW which is only losing the HV set. TT also only works if they're 2 or more targets, so it is useless on bosses such as lostmouth since he is the only target.
You also won't find a 30 page thread asking for nerfs on a SW because it's one of the weaker classes in the game EVEN with all the bugged powers in it's favour such as the armour set. There definitely wont be any nerf SW threads at all when this goes live since SW is very pitiful on preview.
90% of it made by the same dozen ppl.
Last time I checked it was some CW thread but nice to see TTs usage too.
You come here and tell this as the armor set loss would be all CWs fault.
High Vizier, High Prophet, Knight Captain and other great party buff sets are out of the game too! Boss fights, Tiamat will be much harder and I am sorry but Accoursed Diabolist is nothing but a selfish self dps set and noone will miss other than dps centered SWs.
Btw you can nerf wish CWs all you want then HRs, GWFs and TRs will be outdps you at the end of the day!
The other thing I said was how the armour set for SW is what makes it so viable, which again is “gone” in mod 6. Take dreadtheft, it ticks 24 times in one cast, and the armour set deals 2k damage per tick, so thats 48k damage just from the armour before you even take into account of any other damage source, powers, etc. Now link that with TT and you're doing that damage in an AoE to every target around the mark(ed) one(s). ALL of that power is disappearing on mod 6, think about how large that nerf is, compared to CW which is only losing the HV set. TT also only works if they're 2 or more targets, so it is useless on bosses such as lostmouth since he is the only target.
in my case the damage loss would be >30% for SB-fury Warlock, for hellbringer its worse i think
thats a number but we can´t do anything about it i guess
only solution, play CW and be happy with the "all-in-one" superclass
Then delete any char and play TR in PVP for easy win, no boons etc needed, leveled in 4 days...and be happy
Bottom line is:
The content as of right now does not require pure control wizards. So it shouldn't be surprising that very few CW's build for pure control, and instead focus on AOE damage.
The content as of right now also does not require pure healing clerics. So it shouldn't be surprising that very few DC's build for pure healing, and instead focus on buff/debuffing.
But I don't see 30+ page threads complaining about the debuffing abilities of DC's when "they are supposed to be healers". Gee I wonder why? Perhaps it is because this CW hate has been around for a very long time, since the beginning of the game.
When the content DID require pure control wizards (because players were all much weaker and the trash mobs were actually dangerous), CW's DID spec for pure control, high-WIS, high-Recovery, high AP gain for high Singularity uptime, etc. And people complained because "every dungeon run requires 2/3 CW's and the rest of us are locked out". But now that the content DOESN'T require pure control wizards, and CW's spec more for AOE damage dealing potential, people still complain, because "every dungeon run has 2/3 CW's because they can 'do it all'". Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
If you want to nerf the AOE damage dealing abilities of the CW, then that's fine. So which class is going to get it? Because the need for AOE damage isn't going to go away.
And if that is what you really want, then what you'd be doing is turning the CW into a pseudo-tank. Because that is all the CW would be good for, then - to continually keep mobs occupied (but without killing them!) while everyone else kills the mobs. So if you're going to want a CW to act like a tank, then I'm going to request that the CW gets a substantial defense boost to make up for it.
Comments
That's the raw deal. We're hosed either way.
Imagine what would happen if Cryptic cut CW damage in half, but made our CC spells unresistable in PvP? You know...actually being "control" wizards? The amount of rage would be indescribable. So right now, almost all of our CC abilities are incredibly weak in PvP because a) they break very, very quick. Often times CC will break as soon as the casting animation is done and b) every class has so much on-demand CC immunity, there's very little opportunity to actually CC someone. The best you can do is occasionally get a Entangling Force off right at the start of the fight, but even that's rare versus most classes. And stacking chill is nearly useless because even the tiniest bit of momentary CC immunity clears the stacks.
So what are we left with? Damage. That's it. That's all we can bring to the table.
And as far as PvE? Do you remember before Module 1? What was the most common build for a CW? The Singbot. Our main job in dungeons was to build AP as fast as possible, then chain cast Singularity to group up all the mobs, keep them controlled and let the other classes burn down the big groups of mobs. But that got nerfed. Apparently being able to relibably control dungeon adds made things "too easy". So what are we left with? Damage.
That's it. That's our only fallback because in both PvP and PvE there is incredible resistance to actually letting a CC class shine when it comes to CC. No pun intended.
Think about it this way.
What if all the "hard" mobs and bosses were immune to critical hits? How much fun would that be for Rogues, Rangers, and GWFs?
What if all the attacks from "hard" mobs and bosses were unblockable? How much fun would that be for Guardian Fighters (and Paladins)?
What if you couldn't heal or mitigate with powers any of the damage from "hard" mobs or bosses? How much fun would that be for Clerics?
And what if "hard" mobs and bosses were completely immune to any effect involving lifesteal or health stealing powers? What would Warlocks think?
But you know what? As a CW using control powers in dungeons, you know what I see ALL THE STINKING TIME? Immune. Immune. Immune. Boss fight? It's nothing but immune. Immune. Immune.
Even my guide on CWs, that I know is extremely popular around here, is actually a tongue and cheek dig at the class. Death is the best crowd control. If it sounds ironic, that's because it is.
We have been so painted into a corner with our class, that the marquee element of a control wizard, control, has been gutted and mitigated to a side effect of doing damage.
At the end of the day, the reason you see CW's going for all out damage is because that's all we have.
so now apparently CW aren't supposed to control, aren't supposed to DPS. what are they supposed to be again? oh yea they're tanks now, because shield..... #SMF
Before I even start to comment on the rest, this is wrong in so many ways it's unbelievable. A Warlock brings nothing but damage, not a control wizard, not by a long shot.
Let's look at just a few wizard powers.
Steal Time – AoE damage and stun. In mastery slot gives combat advantage and speed bonus.
Icy Terrian – AoE damage, slows any mob that enters the area.
Shard Of The Endless Avalanche – AoE damage, prones mobs it sweeps over and those it explodes into.
Icy Rays roots, Ray of Enfeeblement debuffs, Repel pushes mobs away, etc.
Compared to someone like a warlock that has......Damage...more Damage...a Prone....more Damage...
But no, you're right, a control wizard brings NOTHING but damage, it's “all it has”. Come on I have a CW and a SW and know that's a bold face lie.
Because God forbid something has a downside.
A healer can't heal someone that gets hit by a one shot.
A GWF/HR/SW can't prone a prone immune target.
All this reads to me is “I want to be able to be good at everything all the time”.
Think about it this way, you're making a huge fallacious argument. In one instance you can't use a control power on a boss, and that somehow makes all your control worthless because?
Harrow storm can't prone most bosses or larger mobs, does that make it useless? How about take-down?
What about Hawk shot in a small fighting area?
What about Path Of Blades against a single boss that has no mobs?
How about a cleric trying to heal against any one shot attack?
You should have to change to adapt to a situation. Fighting a boss? Use Shield and Ray of Enfeeblement and Icy Rays, and not Icy Terrain or Entangling Force. Each power should have a use somewhere, not a “one slot fits all”.
A CW can adapt from mob spam, to single target, to a boss fight. So again, what's your point? That you have to actually change how you play depending on the situation? Yay?
Here's the issue you will have any time you bring in control, whether it be stuns, prones, dazes, freezes, being able to manipulate movement, whatever you want to pick, is that you have to think about how it affects the enjoyment of the other players.
How fun is it to fight a group of mobs that are permanently controlled and can't ever fight back? Or for PvP another team that cant ever fight back?
The other issue is how balanced is it? And how does it affect the other group members?
Examples
Why would you need a tank if everything is controlled all the time? Nothing can hit you, every mob is in the right position where you need them, so why bring a tank? Which then leads to why would you need a healer if nothing can ever get you? Why do you need any other class? A CW can just control everything and deal damage in a nice AoE so why bother to bring anything else if you can keep mobs controlled 24/7?
Which also leads to how would you ever lose? How do you create content that can challenge people if they can't ever lose because as soon as you see a mob it gets controlled, can't do anything, and sooner or later dies without touching the party.
This is why in Magic they had to add so many cards (Especially to Green) that read “This card cannot be countered” since a Blue mage was able to simply counter any card you played, had perfect control so to say, and it was extremely frustrating to play against along with being way too powerful. It was both unfun and imbalanced, so it changed. You can look at Hearthstone “Freeze mages” and you'll find it's the same logic. This situation is no different.
Also again, a CW does not bring “nothing to the table” except damage, especially not renegades. Buffs, debuffs, control, are all things that the CW brings. Can you even name another class that brings nearly as much control as the CW?
It's simply impossible for Crytpic to give CW's the type of control that would make a "control" wizard viable. That's why we have what we have now. Damage wizards with a side of control, instead of control wizards with a side of damage.
At the end of the day, people don't WANT to see real "control" wizards. They just want to see CW's nerfed.
Actually you arn't talking about what im talking about at all. You lied about CW having "nothing but damage" and can't refute me at all.
Control can and does exist. It exists in this game, in magic, in hearthstone, and in many other games. That does not mean that it makes you a god. It balanced, it has mobs it cannot affect, it has downsides, so again what is your point?
If you "agreed" with me and were talking about the same thing as me you wouldnt of said that CWs cannot control, that they bring nothing to the party but damage.
How about this, why don't you tell me what a "real control wizard" is then. Since apparently every ability having both damage and some sort of control/buff/debuff isnt control enough for you.
I don't want CWs nerfed, I just want other classes buffed. I think we have to face the reality that in mod 6 there are core classes that are actually viable and necessary to success in pve and pvp: cw, dc, tr. The other classes are filler: hr, gwf,gf, sw, and (probably) op. The way things are now, the filler classes need to be buffed to core status. And not buffed a lot. I think GWF and OP have a chance to be tweaked to core in mod 6 still, and maybe even HR, but GF and SW will almost certainly remain filler. If that is how it turns out and if some other issues are resolved or at least damage-controlled and we have to wait till mod 7 for the filler to be core, well that will have to be good enough.
Just saying this to spell out my intent in saying what I do about the classes. I think cw and tr and dc are were they need to be. The other classes are not. My point is never nerf, but buff. Just enough.
Steal Time: It's great CC, but mostly because it's great damage.
Icy Terrain, used with other chilling powers has good control, but is used mainly to proc storm spell and to buff our damage..
Shard isn't worth using without the old damage. The control it offers isn't worth it. Why? Because they're going to stand up in a second and they're going to be very mad at us.
Icy Rays is single target. I never use it against something that can be controlled. It's used only for damage. The root is a side effect that is barely noticeable.
Repel is useless unless there is a fatal cliff to push them over. One of the best ways to get kicked from a party is to use Repel.
If it doesn't do a lot of damage, it's useless against them.
You mean to tell me they all do exactly what I say and provide CC and not just damage, thereby proving my point that CW doesnt "just bring damage and nothing else"? Thanks.
Also most of your "explanations" are, "It's great except for X time". Not every power is going to be good in every situation, why is that so hard for some people to understand?
And against CC immune targets you cant use CC....you dont say!!! It's almost like that's the whole point of them being Immune. You're saying nothing new, you're not refuting me at all, all you're saying is "yes we have a downside but I dont like it". Well too bad?
Nice quote mining. Also it has nothing to do with the damage, but the prone. Harrow cannot prone a boss, along with most prones, and it's a part of alot of classes such as the GWF. So why should CW be allowed to use CC on bosses and not any other class? Again, it's more of the "I want to be able to do everything" attitude I keep seeing.
They do what they do. Nobody is denying it. Not even Zerg. If those powers didn't do a lot of damage damage, we wouldn't use them and we'd never get into groups.
We all understand it.
I have no idea what Harrow is. My SW is only lvl 30 and is only used for professions and invoking. But I daresay that if it doesn't do a lot of damage, it's a waste against CC immune mobs, just like every CW power would be if we didn't do a lot of damage.
Is that hard to understand?
You missed the core point, friend.
You understand what the downside to a Control Wizard is...and that is CC immunity.
You talk about mitigating our downsides? That's exactly what CWs have been doing. Let me walk you through it.
Why would you want to CC a mob? Because it's dangerous to the group, right?
But most of the dangerous mobs in dungeons also happen to be CC immune. Same with bosses, which are also the most dangerous and challenging fights in the dungeon.
The dungeon mobs that AREN'T immune to CC tend to be weak and die quickly.
So now we have a quandary here. How should I build my character?
If the mobs I really want to take out of the fight are also CC immune, then how do I quickly take them out of the fight? More damage.
If the mobs I'm not really worried about die quickly under heavy fire, then how do I quickly eliminate them? More damage.
If the boss mobs are totally immune to CC and those spells have no effect on them, what do I need to bring to boss fights? More damage.
So you see where we're at? The current meta demands that in order to maximize your effectiveness, you need to dial the damage number way up, and then take whatever CC is tied to that.
Hence the cheekiness of my build. Death is the best crowd control. If I want to bring the most effective CC to a group, that CC comes in one ultimate form. Death.
Hopefully that shines some light on why most CW's tend to go all in on damage and just take whatever CC comes along as a bonus. Because ultimately this game offers very little reward to the CW's that do heavily invest in CC.
The down side of any X is immunity. Not just control from CWs, but prones, even in some games spells or physical damage. It is designed that way for a reason, one of which is to force class variety, another of which is to keep power levels in check. If there were no control immune mobs we go right back to what i said earlier on what happens when anything and everything can be controlled 24/7.
Furthermore, this is not something that just CWs face, why would I use Avalanche of Steel, Take Down, Frontline Surge, so on so forth, against a boss such as Valindra that is immune to prones? You've yet to give me one good reason on why a boss or a “immune” mob then “needs” to be affected by control powers. You're not refuting me still at all, all you are saying is you want to be able to control All of the time in any situation, that you dont want to adapt like every other class does in every single event. A ranger doesnt use AoE powers when fighting one boss same as they dont use powers like Aimed Shot against 100 imps.
Better yet, tell me how this will work in your mind, that we can use control powers such as Take Down or Shard Of The Endless Avalanche on a boss and the boss actually gets a chance to fight back.
The next issue after that is why are you so focused on fighting bosses? You are a controller, your entire job is to control mobs, to help out the party in a different way. Why do you want to do the exact same role as a ranger or as a rogue? They're all suppose to have different roles and different strengths. Why are you not focused on all the mobs during the boss fights and instead want to focus on the boss?
After all that we arrive at an issue of content not of class. If all of the non-immune mobs are too weak then that has Nothing to do with class balance. Suggest making more larger mobs that can be controlled or that have 25-75% resistance to control instead of being immune. All those issues with content do not mean that you need huge amounts of damage buffs or need to make your control powers have effects on immune mobs.
And finally, part of being a controller in D/D is AoE damage. They are suppose to deal large amounts of damage to “trash mobs” so this is fine. What is not fine is when a CW can solo entire mob groups that include larger CC immune mobs and kill them just with their damage and no control.
You know, you could always just do other things. And again, you're just proving my point that you want to be able to do literally everything. You want to take out the big mobs, the little mobs, and the boss, I'm curious what you think the rest of your party is doing in this instance.
The next issue is your back on a content issue and not a class issue. Can't ever control anything? Then ask for more content or provide ideas for mobs that can be controlled, not make excuses for having huge amounts of damage and still be able to control when needed. No class can control or prone targets that are immune, this is not an issue for just CWs, but for HR's, GWFs, and basically any class or power that attempts to control or prone.
After all that you then have to accept that different classes will be better at different dungeons because the dungeons and bosses themselves need to be different. Sometimes a boss will have 100 mobs that endlessly spawn and you'll be able to be the champion that keeps them all controlled while the rest of your party kills the boss and keeps everyone healed. Sometimes it'll be just a single powerful boss with no mobs, and you'll have to adapt and not be able to use CC at all, and that's fine it keeps the game with a sense of variety. Sometimes they'll even be one larger boss and the mobs will be CC immune like in valindra because you're meant to kill her and the mobs are more of a timer than something you're actually meant to fight.
Basically what Im saying is this – Suggest to the Devs to make more varied dungeons/events so that CC becomes more important, if you feel it is undervalued, while also accepting that you can't expect to walk into every dungeon/event and play them all the exact same way using CC all of the time. Sometimes you'll be using alot of single target powers, other times you'll be using alot of crowd control powers.
Which is again still a content issue and not a class issue. The point people are making is that CW's are dealing too much damage while still being able to support others with buffs/debuffs/control. The issue people are stating is that a CW can still do more damage than say a SW, when a SW is built just for damage. That is the issue people are talking about, the class itself, not the content.
Right now, even with all the CC immune you are complaining about, CW's dominate. They deal the most damage in a variety of situations, on a variety of modes (PvP, PvE), on a variety of dungeons, even when they are so “crippled” that they can't use a CC power on say a boss or on a golem. How do you not realize that it is an issue that you believe CW's cannot control and that is suppose to be one of their main roles, but can still face-tank most content, do the most damage, and there's somehow not an issue?
Everything is somehow fine, that a CW can deal the most damage, while still supporting the party in other ways. Meanwhile classes such as SW that do only damage not only cannot keep up with CW on live, even with a broken set that does more damage than most of their powers combined, but are getting huge nerfs, while CW's are mostly unaffected. Are powers such as Tyrannical Threat overpowered? Yes, and it deserved to be nerfed by half, yet at the same time powers like Sudden Storm are dealing huge amounts of damage and is staying the same. That is what people are having an issue with, a controller class becoming more and more powerful in the DPS department and leaving the rest in the dust.
Anyway, this could go on for a while so I'll simply leave it at that.
cw should
1- lose dodge
2 - lose shield
3 - lose half of the damage.
and lets see what happens if the class only have the best cc of the game/a lot of utility and range.
if, after that, the class be dead in one module, in one single module, well, welcome to the team. all classes know what is that, less cw.
Until that horrible nerf, that I still wish they would reverse, Takedown and FLS did good damage against CC immune mobs, just like the CW powers we don't want nerfed too.
If you don't want to agree that damage is a form of control, then I'll say that control is NOT our entire job. A clerics job is not just to heal. Thast's why they have great debuffs and great damage, that sometimes compares to CWs. A GFs job is not just to hold aggro (though they need more damage).
Then why do they want roots and smoke bomb? Are CWS upset that other classes have control powers? Not that I've ever heard.
We do understand that. We don't complain when other classes out damage us, as long as it's not because we got heavily nerfed.
What are we supposed to do when fighting CC immune mobs? Stay in the last room until everyone is done, or damage them instead? What does a Cleric do when nobody needs healing? He debuffs and damages.
What kind of warlock can't keep up with a CWs damage? I admit that I haven't done many T2s since the SW came out, but in SoT, LoL and Tia, SWs smoke me. At 19K, I was invited to a Tia group when someone saw my high DPS, so I assume I'm not considered to be a scrub. They parse every run, and there is a 16K HR who beats me every time. #1 is usually a SW. Yes, sometimes #1 is a CW, but not even most of the time.
From how far away can you cast TT? A CW has to be real close to melee range to use Sudden Storm, and it's easy to miss with it. Can you miss with TT? I don't play an SW, so I don't know. I am in no way in favor of nerfing SWs. Any incoming nerf on them should be fought against as hard as we're fighting against being nerfed. I've certainly never seen any 30 page threads calling for SW nerfs.
Using a prone power against a prone immune target is the same as using a CC power against a CC immune target. They do damage, and they do not prone/CC, making them less effective than normal. They're other options, use them.
Except, I wrote this:
“And finally, part of being a controller in D/D is AoE damage.”
This is why you do not quote mine.
Tell me, you are really going to compare a root or a single power (Smoke bomb) to an entire array of control powers that the CW has? The classes have different roles, they have different power levels in terms of DPS, Defence, Health, so on so forth. A control wizard can control mobs infinitely better than a DC or a HR or a TR.
Same thing I said before, multiple times now, slot different powers. Use ray of enfeeblement, use shield, use single target powers, control the mobs, or keep complaining that you “can't do anything”, it's honestly your choice at this point, I cant feed you a solution you arn't willing to accept.
No actually, we should not fight the TT nerf because it is OP. TT works as follows, you start the animation, which takes a good 3 seconds, then you mark each mob/boss, takes another 1 or so, and then after that you blast away at one of them and hope they are all within 15' range of each other so the damage gets linked. TT then deals 40% damage to ALL units within that 15' range, meaning if you marked 3 mobs it is a 120% AoE damage. To put it simply I can solo an entire cleric spawn in Tiamat on my SW, that should NOT be possible on any class.
The other thing I said was how the armour set for SW is what makes it so viable, which again is “gone” in mod 6. Take dreadtheft, it ticks 24 times in one cast, and the armour set deals 2k damage per tick, so thats 48k damage just from the armour before you even take into account of any other damage source, powers, etc. Now link that with TT and you're doing that damage in an AoE to every target around the mark(ed) one(s). ALL of that power is disappearing on mod 6, think about how large that nerf is, compared to CW which is only losing the HV set. TT also only works if they're 2 or more targets, so it is useless on bosses such as lostmouth since he is the only target.
You also won't find a 30 page thread asking for nerfs on a SW because it's one of the weaker classes in the game EVEN with all the bugged powers in it's favour such as the armour set. There definitely wont be any nerf SW threads at all when this goes live since SW is very pitiful on preview.
If something is broken, you fix it, you don't go and make everyone else just as broken. We didn't buff everyone to the level of a GWF back in mod 2/3 because they were broken (Due to some buggy powers mostly), the same needs to happen anytime any class steps above and beyond the power of other classes, whether it be in PvE, PvP, or both.
Easy to answer.
All those control spell have (pick at least one): long casting animation or casting delay, need to be at melee range, take full duration to be effective, single target (aka not AoE) or have targeting restriction.
> Shard need 2 targets to explode for the prone and damage, and it take a long time to load. Damage have been nerfed very badly.
> Icy terrain need it's full 6s duration for being an effective control spell and it need to be at melee range. It hit like a wet noodle; It's used to proc things.
> Steal time need to be charged (stop the charging put it on cooldown for 4s), it require to be at melee range and the stun duration is not that long. Positive point, it's damage are good for a control spell.
> all other spell are single target or damage spell (damage resist debuff = more damage, not control).
> Even the new Icy Veins is limited at melee range.
That's why I ask for a way for mage to control more than one mob at range. And I speak of mob, not player. The distinction can be made to as effective or not working on player's character.
You keep bringing up the prone thing, and I don't know why. Is there a "Prone Weapon Fighter" in the game that I'm missing? Is there some argument out there that GWFs should ONLY prone stuff and that's it?
Because there sure as heck is the argument here that CW's should only be about control. And that's where you're missing the point.
I'm not saying that CWs need to be the best at everything, only that they should be able to contribute in every situation. Just like every other class.
A GF needs to be able to tank every mob in the game. A DC needs to be able to heal all the damage in the game. And the HR, TR and GWF need to be able to DPS every mob in the game.
If people want to make control THE thing for Wizards, I'm 100% fine with it. That would be awesome. In fact, over two years ago that's why I feel in love with the class while I was leveling up. I didn't do a ton of damage, and all the AOE didn't come until later, but it was a lot of fun to dance around the mobs, being strategic with my casting in order to keep things locked down as much as I could. Leveling up you rarely dealt with control immune mobs, and even when you did it was only while they were performing certain moves, and not a blanket immunity.
But once you get to 60, CC immunity is incredibly common. It's the single most common immunity in the game. Which means it's just not effective for CW's to focus on control. Especially when Cryptic spent the first year and a half of the game nerfing our CC abilities.
Singularity use to be one of the best team-oriented control spells in the game. When's the last time you saw a top end CW casting singularity? You don't, because Cryptic decided that a spell that allowed one class to pull all the enemies together so that it was easier for the entire team to burn them down wasn't what they wanted. And the CW community protested like crazy about the move. But here we are.
So unless that changes, and CC has SOME effect on EVERYTHING, whether it's an actual CC effect or just a debilitating debuff, then there's no point in arguing that a control wizard should be all about the control.
Every power you mentioned the control lasts for less than 2 seconds no matter how much control bonus you have, then you have one angry mob chasing you while all those same powers are on a stupid high CD, I guess you would rather spend all your time picking up a crappy control spec wizard. If what you suggest happened you would kick that CW for being a **** that didnt know how to play his CW.
Last time I checked it was some CW thread but nice to see TTs usage too.
You come here and tell this as the armor set loss would be all CWs fault.
High Vizier, High Prophet, Knight Captain and other great party buff sets are out of the game too! Boss fights, Tiamat will be much harder and I am sorry but Accoursed Diabolist is nothing but a selfish self dps set and noone will miss other than dps centered SWs.
Btw you can nerf wish CWs all you want then HRs, GWFs and TRs will be outdps you at the end of the day!
in my case the damage loss would be >30% for SB-fury Warlock, for hellbringer its worse i think
thats a number but we can´t do anything about it i guess
only solution, play CW and be happy with the "all-in-one" superclass
Then delete any char and play TR in PVP for easy win, no boons etc needed, leveled in 4 days...and be happy
The content as of right now does not require pure control wizards. So it shouldn't be surprising that very few CW's build for pure control, and instead focus on AOE damage.
The content as of right now also does not require pure healing clerics. So it shouldn't be surprising that very few DC's build for pure healing, and instead focus on buff/debuffing.
But I don't see 30+ page threads complaining about the debuffing abilities of DC's when "they are supposed to be healers". Gee I wonder why? Perhaps it is because this CW hate has been around for a very long time, since the beginning of the game.
When the content DID require pure control wizards (because players were all much weaker and the trash mobs were actually dangerous), CW's DID spec for pure control, high-WIS, high-Recovery, high AP gain for high Singularity uptime, etc. And people complained because "every dungeon run requires 2/3 CW's and the rest of us are locked out". But now that the content DOESN'T require pure control wizards, and CW's spec more for AOE damage dealing potential, people still complain, because "every dungeon run has 2/3 CW's because they can 'do it all'". Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
If you want to nerf the AOE damage dealing abilities of the CW, then that's fine. So which class is going to get it? Because the need for AOE damage isn't going to go away.
And if that is what you really want, then what you'd be doing is turning the CW into a pseudo-tank. Because that is all the CW would be good for, then - to continually keep mobs occupied (but without killing them!) while everyone else kills the mobs. So if you're going to want a CW to act like a tank, then I'm going to request that the CW gets a substantial defense boost to make up for it.