seams like you dont know what classes can do what and where there best at
gwf tr are great single target dps ie boss
cw sw are multi target dps
gf dc are suport this means they canbuff de buff tank as needed or they can dps as needed and yes gf need huge help
all you want to do is put everone in 1 box and tell everyone what there role will be
ill never understand why some people think that all classes have to fit in there box
every class has 3 trees they can mix and match to suit there play style
just because you want them to fit into your idea of what they should be doesnt make it so
ill never understand why some people think that all classes have to fit in there box
every class has 3 trees they can mix and match to suit there play style
just because you want them to fit into your idea of what they should be doesnt make it so
Yeah I don't really get it either.
I think it is a combination of two things: 1. narrow-minded thinking about class roles, and 2. agenda-pushing, in this case, the GWF tribe vs. the CW tribe. (Which is a false choice, BTW.)
why do you think gwf and tr do so good in elol and cws always do less
0
zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited March 2015
Well technicly gwf have 2 good aoe skills, Spin and WMS, thats all about good ones. Intimidation is an abomination. U call this aoe class?
R u joking me? Cw have: coi, shard on tab, IT, ST, OF, Singu, IS, SS, check even Icy rais is 2 targed with rly good dmg. Pardon me, but who do u call newbie? I can admit i can do pretty sirius aoe dmg, but only while spaming one at-will and using daily from time to time. TR is more aoe class than us, gwfs. Tho offten im dealing more dmg with daring, flourish, IBS (dont call this small cilinder an aoe, its good if it hits 2 targets), sure + WMS and crescendothan any other class which can spam aoe. TR is much more aoe class than gwf, since this class first choice encounters r all aoe.
Ahh, right, frontline, honesty? i prefer even NSF more...
ill never understand why some people think that all classes have to fit in there box
every class has 3 trees they can mix and match to suit there play style
just because you want them to fit into your idea of what they should be doesnt make it so
"experience"+honesty
Some classes permanently (cw) or not (a rondom overbuffed class) are able to satisfy different areas of gameplay, including,,, ahn... a secundary striker be better striker than a primary striker or be a better defender than a defender.
or you "Put the classes in boxes" and from there to the "balance things", defining trees to accommodate to the individuality of a PLAYER (that is, a conservative way never tested), or makes all classes capable to protect themselves / kill opponents.
The second alternative is done in rotation with all classes, with the exception of cw which always remains independent. even if you sustain all classes broken in this module, well, that is not street of rage or final fight.
if u doesnt score 1st place as dps in any DG as CW ur just bad and thats explains it also from what i ve noticed you doesnt know much about ur own class so your just probly bad CW
thats just plain wrong cws suffer in elol because there are only pulls of up to 5 at a time making single target hitteres better in there
cws do most of thee dps while controling mobs of 15 or more
fix storm spell critting.
remove target cap from singularity.
reduce disintegrate damage
fix pillar proccing chaos magic without dealing damage.
introduce a cap to heal procced by capstone.
if more cws are present, dont let chaos magic stacks.
make chaos magic procd by encounters only
i think these changes would not affect hard performances and i see them as needed badly
in my opinion, the best way to balance cws dont envolve only cws: introduce this rule: range classes dont have dodge, have a fast move back (to be worked for hr ). introducing dodge to gwf. make gf/paladin/sentinels even better to mitigate damage (ac/debuffs/etc).
for now, leave cws to the damage. if the enemies still hit hard, well, the lack of dodge will do a cw player more conservative.
0
zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
in my opinion, the best way to balance cws dont envolve only cws: introduce this rule: range classes dont have dodge, have a fast move back (to be worked for hr ). introducing dodge to gwf. make gf/paladin/sentinels even better to mitigate damage (ac/debuffs/etc).
for now, leave cws to the damage. if the enemies still hit hard, well, the lack of dodge will do a cw player more conservative.
M8... u want to see world burn... this class will die, literaly, without dodge. Only thing that bad and good cw have in common is ability to run around with swarm on them and dodge (well for first 3 dodges, after that bad ones die). U can see cleary when border lies for cw's, u may meet cw with 18k gs dealing 10mln dmg in, lets say, elol and 23k cw dealing 8mln in elol, or even worse next 18k cw dealing 3mln (thats only made up numbers for proportion). Its not the problem that this class is weak or so. U just have bad players, and true problem with this class is, that its highly visible, when u have bad cw. Nobody trust for gwf to carry party, but when u have 18k cw joining u, u hope he wont be screwed. TR's now encounter same problem, when u have 18k tr and he is under equal geared gwf/cw/hr u know he is bad one. Especialy when this tr have 2mln dmg and 1k gs lower tr have 9mln dmg and worse enchants.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
0
aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
thats just plain wrong cws suffer in elol because there are only pulls of up to 5 at a time making single target hitteres better in there
cws do most of thee dps while controling mobs of 15 or more
dude ur just bad CW, you know nothing about ur own class you re making urself look more silly everytime you post something.
The only one wrong here is Teribad. eLOL and eSOT were designed as content that CWs would not be best at. CWs thrive in situations in which there are a ton of adds and mobs, so that our AoE spells deal as much damage as possible.
Teribad, you're the only one who looks silly here, you obviously don't understand the mechanics of AoE damage that does a certain amount of damage to all of the enemies within range. If there are less enemies at once, less damage is dealt by the CW, and the single target class such as TR flourishes.
P.S. When you're telling someone off because you think they're wrong and calling them bad, use grammar and spelling, because it at least provides you with the facade of knowing what you're talking about. Even though you don't.
You keep bringing up the prone thing, and I don't know why. Is there a "Prone Weapon Fighter" in the game that I'm missing? Is there some argument out there that GWFs should ONLY prone stuff and that's it?
Because there sure as heck is the argument here that CW's should only be about control. And that's where you're missing the point.
I'm not saying that CWs need to be the best at everything, only that they should be able to contribute in every situation. Just like every other class.
Before I even start replying, Stop being condescending. I don't treat you like an idiot, so stop with these “hurr hurr i didnt know prone warrior is a thing” <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> attacks, it's pathetic and immature. You'll also notice if you ever played a GWF, that a large amount of their powers use prones. Take Down, Front Line Surge, Indomitable Battle Strike, Savage Advance, Avalance of Steel, all do nothing against prone immune targets except damage. This is a comparison to CW powers that control and deal damage, they are less effective towards CC immune targets as is a prone power to a prone immune.
Secondly, I explained why I brought up prones, and heals, and everything else multiple times in my responces which you clearly are not reading, and I can tell this since later on you will argue against me on points that I even stated and agreed on. But I digress.
For the third and FINAL time, GWFs/GFs/HRs/ etc cannot use a power that prones on a prone immune target and then expect to get the full effect of that power, and in many cases they're better powers to use. You aren't going to use front line surge against valindra when they're multiple different options, same as you wont use steal time against valindra. That is the entire point, immunities make you adapt, lots of small mobs need AoE powers, big mobs need single target. I will NOT explain this to you or anyone else again as i have done so in greater deal in 2 previous and long posts now.
No actually, the argument is that the CW is too powerful overall in every aspect. But you can honestly believe what you want at this point, you won't seem to come to any sort of agreement with me. Secondly it has been said by other people that they are fine with Cws doing AoE damage since that is part of their role, it is the AMOUNT of damage that people have issue with in cases such as storm spell. But again, continue to misrepresent people's arguments, that'll get us so far.
And once again, name ONE situation in which a CW “doesn't contribute” when I have give you, in detail, multiple options for Every situation you have brought up in which you cant control something such as a boss. Fight/control the mobs around the boss, use single target powers, use ray of enfeeblement to debuff, so on so forth. There is not one situation you can give me in which a CW can do Nothing. Can't control? Do damage. Lots of little mobs? Use AoE. A big immune target? Use Single target damage. Compared to a cleric in which – Cant heal? Debuff/Buff. Everyone can change roles, accept it or dont.
If people want to make control THE thing for Wizards, I'm 100% fine with it. That would be awesome. In fact, over two years ago that's why I feel in love with the class while I was leveling up. I didn't do a ton of damage, and all the AOE didn't come until later, but it was a lot of fun to dance around the mobs, being strategic with my casting in order to keep things locked down as much as I could. Leveling up you rarely dealt with control immune mobs, and even when you did it was only while they were performing certain moves, and not a blanket immunity.
But once you get to 60, CC immunity is incredibly common. It's the single most common immunity in the game. Which means it's just not effective for CW's to focus on control. Especially when Cryptic spent the first year and a half of the game nerfing our CC abilities.
Singularity use to be one of the best team-oriented control spells in the game. When's the last time you saw a top end CW casting singularity? You don't, because Cryptic decided that a spell that allowed one class to pull all the enemies together so that it was easier for the entire team to burn them down wasn't what they wanted. And the CW community protested like crazy about the move. But here we are.
So unless that changes, and CC has SOME effect on EVERYTHING, whether it's an actual CC effect or just a debilitating debuff, then there's no point in arguing that a control wizard should be all about the control.
Hey look at what I wrote about it being a content issue and how if there's too much CC immune you should ask cryptic for better content.....shame you either didn't read what I wrote or you're being willfully ignorant and like fighting with me for the sake of fighting.
I'll make a TL;DR version.
Mass control to the point of permanent control/stun/freeze etc is unfun in ANY game and gets dealt with.
Mass control in the ways of singularity makes multiple other roles such as tank/healer useless since the mobs will never hurt anyone or need defending against by a tank since you can simply control them instead.
Every power you mentioned the control lasts for less than 2 seconds no matter how much control bonus you have, then you have one angry mob chasing you while all those same powers are on a stupid high CD, I guess you would rather spend all your time picking up a crappy control spec wizard. If what you suggest happened you would kick that CW for being a **** that didnt know how to play his CW.
Yet you fail to give a solution, any idea, you just rant “all these powers suck”. Tell me, how long do you want the control powers to last? How “good” do they need to be to be usable? So it's not enough that you have multiple powers, even though i got told “Cws only bring damage”, but now they're all not good enough. Solution? Suggestion? Reasoning? Anything?
You come here and tell this as the armor set loss would be all CWs fault.
High Vizier, High Prophet, Knight Captain and other great party buff sets are out of the game too! Boss fights, Tiamat will be much harder and I am sorry but Accoursed Diabolist is nothing but a selfish self dps set and noone will miss other than dps centered SWs.
Btw you can nerf wish CWs all you want then HRs, GWFs and TRs will be outdps you at the end of the day!
Sigh, do people actually read what I write or do people like you just find it fun to quote mine? Honest question. You'll also notice that NOWHERE did I say losing armour sets was the fault of CW's, seriously, stop making up lies.
Read what I said, that Cws will lose their HV set. I said it, in my post, clear as day. The difference between Diabolist set and the HV set is something you said yourself actually, one benifits the party, one benifits just the SW. Losing the HV set doesn't Just affect the CW class, it affects everyone, it makes everyone else deal less damage since they will no longer have a DC/CW/GF using their armour sets to help out the group. Meanwhile, SW's lose alot of their DPS potential that only affects them because of the armour loss, that was the point.
As for the last part, classes such as Hrs are primary strikers, Cws are controllers, if a HR does more DPS than a CW then nothing is wrong, UNLESS it is by a large factor. See the issue is the same as many others that have replied to me, you want to be able to do everything, the most damage, the most control, anything.
Bottom line is:
The content as of right now does not require pure control wizards. So it shouldn't be surprising that very few CW's build for pure control, and instead focus on AOE damage.
The content as of right now also does not require pure healing clerics. So it shouldn't be surprising that very few DC's build for pure healing, and instead focus on buff/debuffing.
This is a part of the problem, the content itself, which again, doesn't just affect Cws. It affects every class such as DC's as you've pointed out.
But I don't see 30+ page threads complaining about the debuffing abilities of DC's when "they are supposed to be healers". Gee I wonder why? Perhaps it is because this CW hate has been around for a very long time, since the beginning of the game.
The “hate” CW's are getting is because they do too much of X to the extent it is broken/unbalanced. The main source that people complain about is storm spell because of how much damage it deals, that feat alone can deal 30-40% of a CW's damage, that's insane coming from one feature. The same can be said of Tyrant and Diabolist, both dealt way too much damage for the SW and needed to be toned down (In the case of Diabo basically removed), and that's honestly fine, it should be fixed. I really do not understand why people get all defensive when someone points out 'this is overpowered”, especially when it IS overpowered.
When the content DID require pure control wizards (because players were all much weaker and the trash mobs were actually dangerous), CW's DID spec for pure control, high-WIS, high-Recovery, high AP gain for high Singularity uptime, etc. And people complained because "every dungeon run requires 2/3 CW's and the rest of us are locked out". But now that the content DOESN'T require pure control wizards, and CW's spec more for AOE damage dealing potential, people still complain, because "every dungeon run has 2/3 CW's because they can 'do it all'". Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
If you want to nerf the AOE damage dealing abilities of the CW, then that's fine. So which class is going to get it? Because the need for AOE damage isn't going to go away.
And if that is what you really want, then what you'd be doing is turning the CW into a pseudo-tank. Because that is all the CW would be good for, then - to continually keep mobs occupied (but without killing them!) while everyone else kills the mobs. So if you're going to want a CW to act like a tank, then I'm going to request that the CW gets a substantial defense boost to make up for it.
Just because people want the CW AoE damage to be toned down doesn't mean that there needs any class to “replace” them at all, it means people feel/think/know that a CW is performing far too well compared to other classes, or simply performing far too well at it's own role.
As for your “pseudo-tank” comment, that isn't what most of us are asking for, it's for things like storm spell to get nerfed because it deals too much damage. The people asking to do just control are usually people like Zerg who want to be controllers, and they “cant”.
Honestly the biggest issues i can see are, the content doesn't allow a vast array of options at the moment, from CC immune bosses with no mobs (No control options), to one shot bosses/mobs (No healing), that cant be fixed by class balance. The next issue is class balance, so many things are changing in mod 6 that will affect every class, from the loss of armour sets, to new feats, powers, and it is not going to be balanced right off the bat. The last issue is the players themselves, who honestly refuse to play anything other than “the best”, then complain that the style they do want to play isn't considered the best. Maybe pure control isn't as good as Control/AoE damage, oh well, no one is stopping you from playing pure control but you. And if you say “people will kick me out”, that is why we have guilds, and friends, try another option.
i have said many times i have no problem with lossing some ss damage but only if it gets replaced with more control but everyone will complain if we have more control because cc cws will be stronger in pvp even though there are way to manny cc imune classes out there almost every calss has a cc break except cws i dont know if sw dc have a cc break honestly i never played them
i have said many times i have no problem with lossing some ss damage but only if it gets replaced with more control but everyone will complain if we have more control because cc cws will be stronger in pvp even though there are way to manny cc imune classes out there almost every calss has a cc break except cws i dont know if sw dc have a cc break honestly i never played them
DCs have no CC break at all. Some will try to point to Cleanse, but to activate that feat you need to heal yourself for the 10-30% chance of it proccing. If the DC is under control, unable to act, then the DC obviously can't heal.
As to the post, I just think:
1. Storm Spell should be in line will all other procced damage from other classes, hence it should not be able to crit.
2. Control duration in PvP needs to be reduced. With a base 20% Control Resistance from wisdom, and the additional Tenacity from a full purified black ice armour set, my DC still gets permacontrolled in a single rotation with an Ice Knife finisher from ONE cw similarly geared.
3. Icy Rays needs to be fixed. To this point, as far as I know, it STILL virtually cannot be dodged, with more damage output (as an encounter) than the DC's Hammer of Fate (a daily).
fix storm spell critting.
remove target cap from singularity.
reduce disintegrate damage
fix pillar proccing chaos magic without dealing damage.
introduce a cap to heal procced by capstone.
if more cws are present, dont let chaos magic stacks.
make chaos magic procd by encounters only
i think these changes would not affect hard performances and i see them as needed badly
This. 100% this.
I'm going to address slintash briefly.
I 100% read your posts, ok, I didn't read the last one but I read all the others. When ironzerg addresses your points, he generally admits when you have a valid point, and you have many. When you address ironzerg, you seem to miss any valid points he may be making.
To sum up what ironzerg has been saying, if I may be so bold, is that many good control wizards DO focus controlling as much as they can. But with alternating rooms of mobs that have CC resist, its INEFFICIENT to switch your entire spellbar just to deal with a couple CC immune elites every other room. Its much easier to make your AoE CCs actually hit hard, which is why CWs focus on being primary dps and secondary control, instead of vice versa. I think we all agree that there is a content issue that needs to be addressed.
I 100% read your posts, ok, I didn't read the last one but I read all the others. When ironzerg addresses your points, he generally admits when you have a valid point, and you have many. When you address ironzerg, you seem to miss any valid points he may be making.
To sum up what ironzerg has been saying, if I may be so bold, is that many good control wizards DO focus controlling as much as they can. But with alternating rooms of mobs that have CC resist, its INEFFICIENT to switch your entire spellbar just to deal with a couple CC immune elites every other room. Its much easier to make your AoE CCs actually hit hard, which is why CWs focus on being primary dps and secondary control, instead of vice versa. I think we all agree that there is a content issue that needs to be addressed.
Solution 1 - Swap-able quick-bars, thereby making it easier to go from control to single target when needed.
Solution 2 - Adjust the content to be more friendly to multiple class types.
The issue remains the same as I've stated before however, unless you have a way to keep control in check so that you still need healers/tanks, it just won't happen. The second issue is with the AoE damage, it's not that CW's "shouldn't do tons of damage, it's that they deal too much as quoted above with things like storm spell.
Which then leads to:
Reduce Storm Spell's damage/remove the crits
Make more varied mobs/dungeons
Comments
corection gwf tr are single target strikers
cw sw are more multi target strikers
hr are switch hitteres depending on stance
seams like you dont know what classes can do what and where there best at
gwf tr are great single target dps ie boss
cw sw are multi target dps
gf dc are suport this means they canbuff de buff tank as needed or they can dps as needed and yes gf need huge help
all you want to do is put everone in 1 box and tell everyone what there role will be
every class has 3 trees they can mix and match to suit there play style
just because you want them to fit into your idea of what they should be doesnt make it so
Yeah I don't really get it either.
I think it is a combination of two things: 1. narrow-minded thinking about class roles, and 2. agenda-pushing, in this case, the GWF tribe vs. the CW tribe. (Which is a false choice, BTW.)
cws are cc / striker
R u joking me? Cw have: coi, shard on tab, IT, ST, OF, Singu, IS, SS, check even Icy rais is 2 targed with rly good dmg. Pardon me, but who do u call newbie? I can admit i can do pretty sirius aoe dmg, but only while spaming one at-will and using daily from time to time. TR is more aoe class than us, gwfs. Tho offten im dealing more dmg with daring, flourish, IBS (dont call this small cilinder an aoe, its good if it hits 2 targets), sure + WMS and crescendothan any other class which can spam aoe. TR is much more aoe class than gwf, since this class first choice encounters r all aoe.
Ahh, right, frontline, honesty? i prefer even NSF more...
Geez.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
"experience"+honesty
Some classes permanently (cw) or not (a rondom overbuffed class) are able to satisfy different areas of gameplay, including,,, ahn... a secundary striker be better striker than a primary striker or be a better defender than a defender.
or you "Put the classes in boxes" and from there to the "balance things", defining trees to accommodate to the individuality of a PLAYER (that is, a conservative way never tested), or makes all classes capable to protect themselves / kill opponents.
The second alternative is done in rotation with all classes, with the exception of cw which always remains independent. even if you sustain all classes broken in this module, well, that is not street of rage or final fight.
thats just plain wrong cws suffer in elol because there are only pulls of up to 5 at a time making single target hitteres better in there
cws do most of thee dps while controling mobs of 15 or more
or a liar... this class have a strange "sex appeal".
remove target cap from singularity.
reduce disintegrate damage
fix pillar proccing chaos magic without dealing damage.
introduce a cap to heal procced by capstone.
if more cws are present, dont let chaos magic stacks.
make chaos magic procd by encounters only
i think these changes would not affect hard performances and i see them as needed badly
for now, leave cws to the damage. if the enemies still hit hard, well, the lack of dodge will do a cw player more conservative.
M8... u want to see world burn... this class will die, literaly, without dodge. Only thing that bad and good cw have in common is ability to run around with swarm on them and dodge (well for first 3 dodges, after that bad ones die). U can see cleary when border lies for cw's, u may meet cw with 18k gs dealing 10mln dmg in, lets say, elol and 23k cw dealing 8mln in elol, or even worse next 18k cw dealing 3mln (thats only made up numbers for proportion). Its not the problem that this class is weak or so. U just have bad players, and true problem with this class is, that its highly visible, when u have bad cw. Nobody trust for gwf to carry party, but when u have 18k cw joining u, u hope he wont be screwed. TR's now encounter same problem, when u have 18k tr and he is under equal geared gwf/cw/hr u know he is bad one. Especialy when this tr have 2mln dmg and 1k gs lower tr have 9mln dmg and worse enchants.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
If you can't beat a CW in LoL, you're either a GF, a GWF, or you just plain suck.
The only one wrong here is Teribad. eLOL and eSOT were designed as content that CWs would not be best at. CWs thrive in situations in which there are a ton of adds and mobs, so that our AoE spells deal as much damage as possible.
Teribad, you're the only one who looks silly here, you obviously don't understand the mechanics of AoE damage that does a certain amount of damage to all of the enemies within range. If there are less enemies at once, less damage is dealt by the CW, and the single target class such as TR flourishes.
P.S. When you're telling someone off because you think they're wrong and calling them bad, use grammar and spelling, because it at least provides you with the facade of knowing what you're talking about. Even though you don't.
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this is not about anarchy, is abour order.
if is to the game have balance, cws dont should help defenders for charity, but, if do a bad job, will die. the same for strikers.
Before I even start replying, Stop being condescending. I don't treat you like an idiot, so stop with these “hurr hurr i didnt know prone warrior is a thing” <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> attacks, it's pathetic and immature. You'll also notice if you ever played a GWF, that a large amount of their powers use prones. Take Down, Front Line Surge, Indomitable Battle Strike, Savage Advance, Avalance of Steel, all do nothing against prone immune targets except damage. This is a comparison to CW powers that control and deal damage, they are less effective towards CC immune targets as is a prone power to a prone immune.
Secondly, I explained why I brought up prones, and heals, and everything else multiple times in my responces which you clearly are not reading, and I can tell this since later on you will argue against me on points that I even stated and agreed on. But I digress.
For the third and FINAL time, GWFs/GFs/HRs/ etc cannot use a power that prones on a prone immune target and then expect to get the full effect of that power, and in many cases they're better powers to use. You aren't going to use front line surge against valindra when they're multiple different options, same as you wont use steal time against valindra. That is the entire point, immunities make you adapt, lots of small mobs need AoE powers, big mobs need single target. I will NOT explain this to you or anyone else again as i have done so in greater deal in 2 previous and long posts now.
No actually, the argument is that the CW is too powerful overall in every aspect. But you can honestly believe what you want at this point, you won't seem to come to any sort of agreement with me. Secondly it has been said by other people that they are fine with Cws doing AoE damage since that is part of their role, it is the AMOUNT of damage that people have issue with in cases such as storm spell. But again, continue to misrepresent people's arguments, that'll get us so far.
And once again, name ONE situation in which a CW “doesn't contribute” when I have give you, in detail, multiple options for Every situation you have brought up in which you cant control something such as a boss. Fight/control the mobs around the boss, use single target powers, use ray of enfeeblement to debuff, so on so forth. There is not one situation you can give me in which a CW can do Nothing. Can't control? Do damage. Lots of little mobs? Use AoE. A big immune target? Use Single target damage. Compared to a cleric in which – Cant heal? Debuff/Buff. Everyone can change roles, accept it or dont.
Hey look at what I wrote about it being a content issue and how if there's too much CC immune you should ask cryptic for better content.....shame you either didn't read what I wrote or you're being willfully ignorant and like fighting with me for the sake of fighting.
I'll make a TL;DR version.
Mass control to the point of permanent control/stun/freeze etc is unfun in ANY game and gets dealt with.
Mass control in the ways of singularity makes multiple other roles such as tank/healer useless since the mobs will never hurt anyone or need defending against by a tank since you can simply control them instead.
The issue is the content, not the classes.
Yet you fail to give a solution, any idea, you just rant “all these powers suck”. Tell me, how long do you want the control powers to last? How “good” do they need to be to be usable? So it's not enough that you have multiple powers, even though i got told “Cws only bring damage”, but now they're all not good enough. Solution? Suggestion? Reasoning? Anything?
Sigh, do people actually read what I write or do people like you just find it fun to quote mine? Honest question. You'll also notice that NOWHERE did I say losing armour sets was the fault of CW's, seriously, stop making up lies.
Read what I said, that Cws will lose their HV set. I said it, in my post, clear as day. The difference between Diabolist set and the HV set is something you said yourself actually, one benifits the party, one benifits just the SW. Losing the HV set doesn't Just affect the CW class, it affects everyone, it makes everyone else deal less damage since they will no longer have a DC/CW/GF using their armour sets to help out the group. Meanwhile, SW's lose alot of their DPS potential that only affects them because of the armour loss, that was the point.
As for the last part, classes such as Hrs are primary strikers, Cws are controllers, if a HR does more DPS than a CW then nothing is wrong, UNLESS it is by a large factor. See the issue is the same as many others that have replied to me, you want to be able to do everything, the most damage, the most control, anything.
This is a part of the problem, the content itself, which again, doesn't just affect Cws. It affects every class such as DC's as you've pointed out.
The “hate” CW's are getting is because they do too much of X to the extent it is broken/unbalanced. The main source that people complain about is storm spell because of how much damage it deals, that feat alone can deal 30-40% of a CW's damage, that's insane coming from one feature. The same can be said of Tyrant and Diabolist, both dealt way too much damage for the SW and needed to be toned down (In the case of Diabo basically removed), and that's honestly fine, it should be fixed. I really do not understand why people get all defensive when someone points out 'this is overpowered”, especially when it IS overpowered.
Just because people want the CW AoE damage to be toned down doesn't mean that there needs any class to “replace” them at all, it means people feel/think/know that a CW is performing far too well compared to other classes, or simply performing far too well at it's own role.
As for your “pseudo-tank” comment, that isn't what most of us are asking for, it's for things like storm spell to get nerfed because it deals too much damage. The people asking to do just control are usually people like Zerg who want to be controllers, and they “cant”.
Honestly the biggest issues i can see are, the content doesn't allow a vast array of options at the moment, from CC immune bosses with no mobs (No control options), to one shot bosses/mobs (No healing), that cant be fixed by class balance. The next issue is class balance, so many things are changing in mod 6 that will affect every class, from the loss of armour sets, to new feats, powers, and it is not going to be balanced right off the bat. The last issue is the players themselves, who honestly refuse to play anything other than “the best”, then complain that the style they do want to play isn't considered the best. Maybe pure control isn't as good as Control/AoE damage, oh well, no one is stopping you from playing pure control but you. And if you say “people will kick me out”, that is why we have guilds, and friends, try another option.
DCs have no CC break at all. Some will try to point to Cleanse, but to activate that feat you need to heal yourself for the 10-30% chance of it proccing. If the DC is under control, unable to act, then the DC obviously can't heal.
As to the post, I just think:
1. Storm Spell should be in line will all other procced damage from other classes, hence it should not be able to crit.
2. Control duration in PvP needs to be reduced. With a base 20% Control Resistance from wisdom, and the additional Tenacity from a full purified black ice armour set, my DC still gets permacontrolled in a single rotation with an Ice Knife finisher from ONE cw similarly geared.
3. Icy Rays needs to be fixed. To this point, as far as I know, it STILL virtually cannot be dodged, with more damage output (as an encounter) than the DC's Hammer of Fate (a daily).
Cheers.
This. 100% this.
I'm going to address slintash briefly.
I 100% read your posts, ok, I didn't read the last one but I read all the others. When ironzerg addresses your points, he generally admits when you have a valid point, and you have many. When you address ironzerg, you seem to miss any valid points he may be making.
To sum up what ironzerg has been saying, if I may be so bold, is that many good control wizards DO focus controlling as much as they can. But with alternating rooms of mobs that have CC resist, its INEFFICIENT to switch your entire spellbar just to deal with a couple CC immune elites every other room. Its much easier to make your AoE CCs actually hit hard, which is why CWs focus on being primary dps and secondary control, instead of vice versa. I think we all agree that there is a content issue that needs to be addressed.
Solution 1 - Swap-able quick-bars, thereby making it easier to go from control to single target when needed.
Solution 2 - Adjust the content to be more friendly to multiple class types.
The issue remains the same as I've stated before however, unless you have a way to keep control in check so that you still need healers/tanks, it just won't happen. The second issue is with the AoE damage, it's not that CW's "shouldn't do tons of damage, it's that they deal too much as quoted above with things like storm spell.
Which then leads to:
Reduce Storm Spell's damage/remove the crits
Make more varied mobs/dungeons