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TR's on the preview server: a look at the proposed upcoming changes to TR.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
As a proponent of balance and after talking with multiple TR friends and playing a TR (both WK and MI) in executioner/saboteur/scoundrel setups, as well as practicing on the preview shard I feel a few changes still may need to be made.
Firstly the dailies. Bloodbath is a little less bloody on the preview shard which I was very glad to see. Being able to wipe an entire node with 1-2 dailies was way too strong. Shocking execution is still able to take my GWF's health from 44k to ~ 5k with a single hit despite the proposed nerf to base damage. I think this can be solved along with some other issues which I will summarize at the end.
Secondarily the stealth changes. After testing on the preview shard with TR's I noticed that the stealth reveal is actually not that revealing. It is a couple of seconds but it's not terribly different from the fact that they are close enough to be revealed when they come in to do a gloaming cut and dodge roll away and they will be in stealth again by the time their roll is up anyway. I know this may not make TR's very happy but I see it as little difference to stealth overall.
Thirdly gloaming cut for saboteurs does around 8-15k damage per hit with at wills from stealth. This is very good, very high dps and very difficult to deal with. I do feel that dps from a TR should be high and considering they sacrifice their encounters to maintain stealth or itc or to stun then all that's left for killing is at-will dps and dailies. However 15k per hit for an at will guaranteed from stealth is a bit much. Not to mention the secondary damage you will take from feats in the executioner tree and saboteur tree.
To summarize I feel that dps for the TR is very strong and that SE is definitely too strong when the class has so much other utility working in its favor. Here is what I propose: take away the assured crit from stealth. This would leave the chance for high damage (often greater than 30% crit chance) but it would force TR's to feat into crit rather than leaving it up to a class feature. It would mean that 1 of every 3 shockings would take you down to 5% of your HP and 1 of every 3 gloaming cuts would hit for 15k. This alone would be enough to balance the DPS of the TR this mod imho. I don't propose any other large changes to the class but TR's should not have the ability to 1v2 other classes and kill both of them assuming equal gear and skill.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
Firstly the dailies. Bloodbath is a little less bloody on the preview shard which I was very glad to see. Being able to wipe an entire node with 1-2 dailies was way too strong. Shocking execution is still able to take my GWF's health from 44k to ~ 5k with a single hit despite the proposed nerf to base damage. I think this can be solved along with some other issues which I will summarize at the end.
Secondarily the stealth changes. After testing on the preview shard with TR's I noticed that the stealth reveal is actually not that revealing. It is a couple of seconds but it's not terribly different from the fact that they are close enough to be revealed when they come in to do a gloaming cut and dodge roll away and they will be in stealth again by the time their roll is up anyway. I know this may not make TR's very happy but I see it as little difference to stealth overall.
Thirdly gloaming cut for saboteurs does around 8-15k damage per hit with at wills from stealth. This is very good, very high dps and very difficult to deal with. I do feel that dps from a TR should be high and considering they sacrifice their encounters to maintain stealth or itc or to stun then all that's left for killing is at-will dps and dailies. However 15k per hit for an at will guaranteed from stealth is a bit much. Not to mention the secondary damage you will take from feats in the executioner tree and saboteur tree.
To summarize I feel that dps for the TR is very strong and that SE is definitely too strong when the class has so much other utility working in its favor. Here is what I propose: take away the assured crit from stealth. This would leave the chance for high damage (often greater than 30% crit chance) but it would force TR's to feat into crit rather than leaving it up to a class feature. It would mean that 1 of every 3 shockings would take you down to 5% of your HP and 1 of every 3 gloaming cuts would hit for 15k. This alone would be enough to balance the DPS of the TR this mod imho. I don't propose any other large changes to the class but TR's should not have the ability to 1v2 other classes and kill both of them assuming equal gear and skill.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
I agree scoundrel TR's have a lot of dazes and perhaps a bit much control but they also have to give up ITC to make it work so they must control while they are out of stealth. They could probably do with a little less up time on their stuns. Reducing the duration would be enough in my opinion to take care of this. I actually stated the other day to a CW in my guild that it seems they took the control from control wizards and gave it to scoundrels and trappers lol.
Thanks for your reply.
Comments in green.
No thanks man.
yes one of 3 is way to low for a single encounter class with lowest base dmg
and slowest at wills in the game against 5 dodges classes .
how many atwill u land on target
i say less then 3 per 1v1 u eather dead or made a kill so 35% has 0 chance
you said :
After testing on the preview shard with TR's I noticed that the stealth reveal is actually not that revealing.
based on what
your experience against tr
what about tr vs cw or hr
you just post a tr that you can easy beat and act like its a balance
when you take back something for the sake of balance, you have to give back something else.
you cant say:
"from now on stealth depletion and reveal but here you are guys 100% crit"
and after 2 weeks:
" from now on stealth depletion reveal and here you are a kick in the ***"
no.
instead let's start from the thing that is getting abused: gloaming cut. It does not deplete stealth, if feated it refills it....should it crit 100% ?? no.
Proposed change: gloaming cut now deplete stealth. If feated it does not deplete stealth, it refills it BUT THIS SKILL CANNOT CRIT.
This is a changed aimed to kill permastealth damage
1) Bloodbath on live is too strong. Ask anyone besides a TR.
2)I never proposed the idea of stealth reveal, I don't particularly like it, I simply stated what its effects are on the preview shard.
3)If you are hitting for 6k then you may be specced in a way that does less damage, you don't state your build here or your stats so it's like saying that because you don't hit that hard, noone does.
4)I am speaking from BIS down to 10k beginners. The TR is obviously too strong this mod as anyone, and I mean anyone playing any class other than TR as their main will tell you. My friends and guildees who main TR's state they are too strong. I am not here advocating a class nerf, I'm advocating balance and allowing other classes the opportunity to be able to withstand the TR at the very least 1v2 and if all is right the potential to kill them 1v1. Now there are other factors at play as well, gear varies, skill level varies. I'm speaking from an "across the board" stance here. That said, generally speaking, imho, TR's need a decrease in their crit chance from stealth so they aren't guaranteed to do max damage with every hit from stealth. All other class have to manage crit chance, TR's simply should not be immune to this limitation either.
Thanks for your time and conideration.
I'm sorry if TRs feel they can't do anything without permastealth but i'm sure their superior skills and nerve will allow them to overcome this terrible nerf.
Thanks Tyrion for sharing some impressions and open to some quiet discussion on the matter. Unfortunately i could not test these changes on preview so i'll need to wait till tomorrow to play and see.
I figured the 2 seconds reveal were not a big issue for hit-run tactics but i think they are aimed at preventing what i mentioned above: people getting killed while the TR pretty much never shows his face.
As Panderus said, we'll see how it goes and they'll keep working on balancing this matter in the new year.
Feats and encounters are what make classes different bro.
There is no putting in line with other classes.
Other classes cannot use stealth
Other classes are not based on critical attack.
Some classes are based on defense
Some classes are based on offense
Some classes can perma freeze / perma control you with uber high damage.
Some classes can snipe you from 100m range with high damage
you get the point....
We are all different classes for good reason. (Rules of D&D say so)
Go join him in the Poking stick only matches..
Putting in line with other classes means you don't get an insta win considering equal gear and skill.
Other classes cannot use stealth that is correct, you have grasped a difference between TR's and other classes, grats.
Other classes, most certainly, are based on critical attack, if I don't crit... I don't do big damage either. This is a basic understanding amongst PVPers.
Other classes are based on defense, this is true, so why should my 50% DR, 35% deflect, 18% tenacity, 80% unstoppable DR, and 30% sprint DR be ignored on a 54k crit shocking execution?
Some classes are based on offense, this is absolutely true as well. Pretty basic stuff here.
Some classes can perma-freeze you or perma daze you however it's not the CW so much anymore as other classes have as much or more control than CW's used to.
Some classes can try and snipe from 100m which doesn't do any good in PVP whatsoever as you can't win a node from a pillar. So they are forced to go melee.
We are all different classes for good reason, all of which should balance out in our different utilities. TR's are not balanced atm, so I posted to that effect.
Thanks for your reply.
so we have this stealthed guy that is killing people around.
What does it do?
Bloodbath
Gloaming
why are people dying to these skill/combos? Because they crit and apply piercing damage.
What can we do to stop this?
Bloodbath does 10-12k max without piercing damages, something that is being fixed right now. So problem solved
Gloaming cut. It does not deplete stealth, if feated it refills it....should it crit 100% ?? no.
Proposed change: gloaming cut now deplete stealth. If feated it does +30 % damage, not deplete stealth, it refills it BUT THIS SKILL CAN NO MORE CRIT.
This mixed to reveal will balance things.
People will have two ways of playing: who cares about stealth lemme hit my 10k gloaming with depletion or lemme play save with no critted gloaming. ( both path will be able to eventually kill the enemy )
Piercing damage: remove it and give an healing feat as compensation
It's a skill that ignores all defense on a class that, you just stated, should focus on defense. Not only does it ignore all defense it is also an insta crit from stealth. So when I play my GWF I should simply accept that on a defensive class with very high defensive stats I will, inevitably, be one shotted every time I encounter a TR as there is nothing I can do about it? That sounds very fair and balanced mate. Well here let me flush this one out for you even more. Let's say I slot avalanche and mighty leap just to deal with TR's. You start a SE, I hit avalanche, you dodge roll out and maintain your AP. I land, I die. Same with mighty leap. Very balance friend.
Let's say I'm a class with dodges, like my CW, or my HR, you hit me with an impact shot, dazing strike, or use a stun feat depending on your skill tree. Then you SE me for all my life. Again same issue. The easy fix is that you only get an insta kill one out of every 2-3 dailies because you obey crit rules. Easiest fix of all. That means I may actually get to fight you one out of every 2-3 times I step foot on your node. However if you think actually having to fight is too difficult and that one shot dailies should do all your work for you I don't know that we have anything else to discuss.
Thanks for your reply.
nice christmas list for santa.
it's not going to happen..
All you get this xmas is a sack of coal.
I have my own list of things I could complain about with other classes
Do I care to do complain and cry when I lose? NO
I will study a class and find ways to win.
Why is this so hard for you guys?
Was it that hard for you to get an A+ on your work at school?
quote the bible, "study to find yourself approved"
The skill is designed to destroy a class with super defense (given)
The skill can be dodged (fact)
You can sprint out of range of the skill (fact)
You can counter the skill with your own skills (fact)
There are many more things you can do... but I don't feel like being your (easy) button
The biggest problem I think all classes have suffered in PvP is the constant change to mechanics. I would like to see the meta game develop a bit before any more drastic changes are made.
I like the stealth reveal idea, because it makes sense that if you are hit by somebody, it would get your attention. Also, it gives players at least a chance to react and fight back. Let's see how the meta develops for a while before we start asking for more adjustments.
When this became a problem with CW's the class feature "chill" was nerfed so that after you are frozen, you are immune to chill for 3 seconds. Chill needs to reach 6 stacks to freeze and can be applied at the rate of 1 stack per second. It is possible to lower that to 6 stacks in 3 seconds with the arti weapon and glacial advance. Some encounters also apply chill, so if the cw spams out chill encounters into ray of frost the time to freeze can be less. However, the meta is renegade (where chill stacking with encounters is not optimal) with a different arti weapon, so you never see CW's doing this anyway.
This means once you have been frozen, you will not be frozen again for 6-9 seconds at least. How would you like the stealth reveal upped to 3 seconds and to have to apply 6 stacks of "stealth" to regain stealth in addition to that?
Over the course of mod 4, aka the rise of the CW, the class took several nerfs. I don't recall any TR's arguing that CW's need their damage because they are squishy, or that CW's are supposed to deal tons of damage at high levels because D&D says they do, or CW's have to fight at long range because that is their only defense, or that CW's have been PvP punching bags forever and deserve to be good, etc.
Finally, tenacity has been given significantly increased value. It also affects control resist. This is an indirect nerf to CW cc, and a buff to all classes survivability, including the TR. Let's see what this stuff actually feels like in game and let the meta/builds develop a bit before we get too worked up.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
I may reconsider my position if there were people who don't play TR's telling me that they feel TR's are balanced. If any of my friends, guild-mates, in-game acquaintances were saying that TR's are fine I wouldn't be here posting. I would be re-examining if I am overly biased against a class.
That said, everyone, and I mean everyone including end game TR's, is telling me that TR's are too strong. Their damage is too high this mod. I know that by saying that I will inevitably experience disagreement and disgruntlement from TR's, particularly those who are enjoying their "time in the sun" at the moment. I'm sorry if I disappoint the few to advocate for balance for the many. I know, however, that if any changes come to TR's at all, they will persevere as a class, just as they have always have.
Thanks for your time
I don't have a problem with CW, TR, GWF, GF, SW, HR, or DC.
I have a problem with people coming here acting like their way and their ideas MUST be put in place to make the game balanced.
I would be fine with no stealth depletion in PVE as well on top of no reveal. I don't even advocate for reveals in PVP.
Thanks for your reply.
Mmmh...no?
I've never seen the guy for more than 0.2s a barely visible figure before he could roll away.
But if it pleases you: he was killing people while being in stealth, coming out of stealth for a fraction of a second just to get back to stealth again. And it's not like we didn't see this stuff on video too.
I do not call every TR a perma, it's quite clear from my past posts. But 90% of PvP TRs make a HEAVY use of stealth and are barely visible for short periods of time. I may be a nab but also TRs here on forums tell people to "listen to the sounds with a 5.1 headset" or train to find the TR in stealth. These are the proposed solutions for TRs i read here.
Changes are needed cause a 5.1 headset and beast training to be able to just fight back against a specific class are plain stupid. Every class can be countered with knowledge and a REASONABLE level of training/ skill.
TRs are special? They need to be the one and only class you need to specifically train like a beast or be able to "sense" them through stealth? Do we need to train with Obi Wan Kenobi to fight TRs or we are skill-less?
To cut it: hear them with 5.1 sound, train to "find them" through stealth, nail a 0.2s opportunity through latency to hit them.
These are not solutions.
This is not balance.
These things are insanity. What TRs so far defined as "counters" to their class.
Every class has specific weaknesses and is prone to specific counterattacks.
TRs must be no different.
You have some interesting opinions and to be honest my first reaction was – they have just made changes to stealth, reduced the TR’s damage even more with a release today? So before this even hits the live system you are already politely suggesting that the TR’s should be ground into the dust with yet even more damage reductions that will affect both PVP and PVE TR’s adversely. How nice for them!
Perhaps we could all wait at least one day and actually try out the changes in a live system, and see how they affect everybody rather than just the people who politely agreed to test with you before calling for yet more reductions to the TR’s. Would that be completely unreasonable?
Obviously the answer is yes.
So lets have a look at your suggestions;
So apart from creating an impression that all TR’s hit for 39,000 with SE, and kill up to 5 players with bloodbath – not sure if you mean repeated bloodbaths here – no real substance to your remarks, for example please let us know what level TR’s are doing this. I have two – and before the changes they could not do this.
Then this sounds about right – so a TR attacks you see them for 2 seconds, are you saying this is not working as intended? Again your point is what – TR’s should be visible all the time?
Ok – so here I think you are saying gloaming cut is OP as an at will doing 8-15K damage. Again what level of TR, if all TR’s 10K to whatever it was you mentioned do this, then yes GC is OP
So essentially you have pointed out 2 daily powers and one at will that you believe are overpowered and doing too much damage. Ok let say you are right – your suggestion is remove assured critical from stealth which will what – reduce all of TR’s damage for every encounter, every at will, and every daily power. So in fact you are not asking for overpowered damage from Gloaming cut, bloodbath and SE to be reduced, you are asking for everything a TR has to be reduced.
Again how nice – so basically you ask for old mod4 TR damage levels, with stealth reveal, with stealth depletion with at will ect.
Is my summation of your request right or wrong?
Thanks for your time and consideration.
And my warmest regards to you
Matthew
(claps for matt)
You got it bro
I will try to cut to the chase here as it seems that putting words in my mouth is becoming quite popular. Very simply put TR's deal too much damage from stealth, mainly related to their guaranteed crits. Reverse guaranteed crits from stealth and problem solved. I don't advocate for stealth reveal, I don't advocate for further nerfs to base damage. This is plainly stated in my first post.
Thanks for your time.
I do, however appreciate all of your feedback, biased or not and take it into consideration.
Thanks for your time.
I do not know what you mean by a "silenced weapon." Do you mean HR's disruptive shot?
As for being lifted and pushed by CW's when not frozen, please consider that this means 2 out of 4 possible encounters are not applying chill, and entangle and repel have little damage compared to other options. If the CW is actually running 4 encounters, that means no shield. You know darn well that TR's salivate at the sight of a CW without shield. If they are running shield, that means they are running a control setup at the cost of damage output. See, a CW needs to sacrifice one to accomplish the other. Now about that TR...
Remember my point about tenacity. This is the biggest thing in the patch notes I think people are overlooking. Rogues will get increased cc resist and survivability from a 36% increase to tenacity.
***I do not want TR's nerfed into oblivion, and none of the ideas being implemented were suggested by me. I did give my opinion of the proposed changes in some other threads, but they are nothing more than my opinion.
In Mod 4 we got arti gear, and because I cannot afford to gear multiple characters, I chose to play my CW as a "main" so that I could have one uber-geared character. But I miss my rogue, and I loved playing it also. I do not hate the rogue class at all, despite how I may have come across in the recent past. I just want the game to be better balanced so that it is more fun for everybody, not just the fotm OP class.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
any class can 1v2 any class of equal gear and skill, you just want to make sure TR's are never that class.
Thank you for driving home what I expected was the ulterior motive that is sometimes stated plainly by its proponents. It's the "every class has their day in the sun" phenomenon. Where the favored OP class defends its position by saying "but but such and such class was OP for a long time, now it's our turn, don't take our fun away". This is exactly the problem. No one class GWF, CW, HR, TR, GF, or SW should be OP... EVER. When GWF's became ridiculous in mod 3 I advocated for a nerf. I knew roar was OP and stated so to everyone. I actually stopped playing GWF towards the mid/end of the mod because it was too strong.
It's difficult when your class is the one being affected but, trust me, any class can and will adapt to changes and the end result is to try and achieve a balanced PVP environment or at least get as close as humanly possible.
Thanks for your reply.
Thanks to tolkienbuff ,pando38 and the rest of the guys here that know what LOGIC is.
Sincerely yours, Atsaliagos.
uhhh, i can freeze someone in the time it takes for my entangle to end by just pointing ray of frost without the arty for it. oppressors can still perma-control with just 3 control encounters and the 4th is just for more damage or defense. and i only have 85% control bonus.
As you clearly read in my post to which you replied:
"...It is possible to lower that to 6 stacks in 3 seconds with the arti weapon and glacial advance. Some encounters also apply chill, so if the cw spams out chill encounters into ray of frost the time to freeze can be less."
Yes, you can do things to increase the rate/effectiveness of chill with feats/gear. You can also increase the rate of loss/effectiveness of stealth in the same way.
***Edit:
I do realize that entangle, RoF can freeze people, but not the way you say it can. Not without feats or arti-weapon, or also using a chill-stacking encounter. I play an Oppressor CW. I use the arcane eye of the golden dragon, not the chilling, because armor pen. I get the stacks from glacial advance, but not from the arti. I do not use orb of imposition because ITC, unstoppable, block, etc.
I cannot freeze somebody before entangle ends without using an encounter even with glacial advance. Maybe I could with orb of imposition, but that would mean removing a more flexible passive to accomplish.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
You say
No it was not plainly stated as such in your first post. But hidden amidst the lovely written paragraphs and requesting an overall damage reduction for a class while stating you do not advocate further nefts to base damage is plain old double standards. – Regardless of how prettily you write.
But since you say now that you are just asking for a damage reduction for all TR’s and all TR’s encounters/atwill and what have you’s , I will give you my opinion of the TR before the changes made today. Yes some TR's did too much damage in PVP environment only – the Devs answer to this was to have a stealth reveal and some damage reductions, which may very well cure this issue.
Why did the DEVS take this approach – personally I feel it was because you all moaned more about perma stealth than anything else, even when TR’s were saying it’s not the stealth. So you got what you ask for – So again how about now trying it out for a time in a live systems for all before requesting yet more reductions, and especially reductions that will very badly and adversely affect people in the PVE game, (or are you trying to tell me that TR’s are OP in that area too) but that is the point really is it not, you just don’t really care about them. Because for you balance is all about high end BIS PVP
Again right or wrong – and if right please request changes for a PVP balance that only affects PVP and does not ruin the PVE classes. And if No please do let us know how the TR’s are OP class in PVE
Thank you for your reply
And my warmest regards to you
Matthew