I am not speaking for them, just making sure they noticed you were.
Thank you for giving me a dictionary definition of the term Meatshield, this must be the latest edition of websters as I was unaware of the change in meaning.
I look forward to your reply with baited (and switched) breath, and good luck with fixing your PC with your phone or whatever is causing you pain in your rear.
Thanks for your reply.
i took some pcp angel dust and
sudenly i see you was right all along
tr dont need dmg or stealth coz we can fly i forgot all abouth it
im so sory man
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited December 2014
Although I am not sure nezyrworks realizes it, he/she is actually agreeing with Tyrion. Shocking Execution does too much damage, and all rainbow-premading TRs are effectively forced into running SE if they want to compete.
This is not a l2p issue. Tyrion is top 5 GWF in the game in time spent practicing vs. high quality TRs. Many, many months of practice. In fact, he wrote this post after spending > 6 hours in dwarven valley practicing vs TRs in 1v1 and 2v1. He speaks from experience, and he is correct. Given their ability to survive, TRs can do too much spike damage with SE.
Although I am not sure nezyrworks realizes it, he/she is actually agreeing with Tyrion. Shocking Execution does too much damage, and all rainbow-premading TRs are effectively forced into running SE if they want to compete.
This is not a l2p issue. Tyrion is top 5 GWF in the game in time spent practicing vs. high quality TRs. Many, many months of practice. In fact, he wrote this post after spending > 6 hours in dwarven valley practicing vs TRs in 1v1 and 2v1. He speaks from experience, and he is correct. Given their ability to survive, TRs can do too much spike damage with SE.
now tell me what class could tr kill 1v1 with se nerf and stealth auto crit removed
now tell me what class could tr kill 1v1 with se nerf and stealth auto crit removed
That'd be interesting. I don't presume to know the answer before testing such changes. Might be overkill. But I have tested the current stuff and it is significantly imbalanced. I want TRs to be good, just not so great that no one wants to q for pvp without having at least 2 of them in their party.
ty for your time
real players appreciate good trs in a match
going all out for some stupid nerfs not cool at all
Also might not be overkill. Point is, TRs can do too much damage. Hopefully you at least agree on that. Assuming you do, what is your proposed solution?
Tyrion isn't trying to 'go all out', he is simply proposing 1 reasonable solution. It would still require testing to make sure it wasn't too far (or not far enough). If there are alternative solutions, please share.
Although I am not sure nezyrworks realizes it, he/she is actually agreeing with Tyrion. Shocking Execution does too much damage, and all rainbow-premading TRs are effectively forced into running SE if they want to compete.
This is not a l2p issue. Tyrion is top 5 GWF in the game in time spent practicing vs. high quality TRs. Many, many months of practice. In fact, he wrote this post after spending > 6 hours in dwarven valley practicing vs TRs in 1v1 and 2v1. He speaks from experience, and he is correct. Given their ability to survive, TRs can do too much spike damage with SE.
Not entirely. Im against 100% crit removal. Im after unmitigable damage sab and exe are causing. This combined with first strike change would remove oneshot once and for all (by oneshot i mean oneshot on tanks, not low gs pug).
And i was not speaking about his admirable Gwf skills but on Tr ones.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Not entirely. Im against 100% crit removal. Im after unmitigable damage sab and exe are causing. This combined with first strike change would remove oneshot once and for all (by oneshot i mean oneshot on tanks, not low gs pug).
Seems reasonable to me. If cryptic went this route, could work.
On the 100% crit removal:
I am not against the possibility of a TR doing 35k - 45k with a shocking. I'm against it happening 100% of the time (when stealthed). 25% - 35% chance to do 35k - 45k with daily may be fine for an executioner TR.
naaah! balance doesnt exist virtually even in real life, can you tell how many good and bad people there is? I bet there are more bad people than good people. So if you are asking for balance it will never happen whats good for your GWF tolkien is bad for other class whats bad for other class is good for your GWF and vice versa. A perfectly balanced game is impossible to achieve its like asking for melee class to be superior in both durability and offense compared to range class because being melee you need to go near your opponent but in this game range class is better than melee.
Seems reasonable to me. If cryptic went this route, could work.
On the 100% crit removal:
I am not against the possibility of a TR doing 35k - 45k with a shocking. I'm against it happening 100% of the time (when stealthed). 25% - 35% chance to do 35k - 45k with daily may be fine for an executioner TR.
how can you defend your self from something or someone you cant see? would you like that 100% crit chance to be changed to 100% ignore DR?
Also might not be overkill. Point is, TRs can do too much damage. Hopefully you at least agree on that. Assuming you do, what is your proposed solution?
Tyrion isn't trying to 'go all out', he is simply proposing 1 reasonable solution. It would still require testing to make sure it wasn't too far (or not far enough). If there are alternative solutions, please share.
he wants crit nerf , daily nerf and by hes own words stealth reveal is fine
so that is all out .
yeah try to fight dc with stealth reveal and no viable daily .
my opinion is tr has no place in the mid with a single encounter its dualist class
1v1 has no utility on mid what so ever
so it needs to be viable
but not as running on cap in stealth but fighting on a cap
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
he wants crit nerf , daily nerf and by hes own words stealth reveal is fine
so that is all out .
yeah try to fight dc with stealth reveal and no viable daily .
No, here is what he proposed in the OP: "take away the assured crit from stealth. " That's it. With OP's proposal, your SE can still 1-shot. It will just be less likely. Maybe 33% of time rather than 100% of time.
He said the stealth reveal isn't that significant, and therefore he doesn't care if they revert it.
Again, from tyrion: "I never proposed the idea of stealth reveal, I don't particularly like it, I simply stated what its effects are on the preview shard."
Iyon the Dark
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited December 2014
"take away the assured crit from stealth"
Translates to - " I cannot see you, nor hear you, nor know where you are, but I don't want it assured you hit me."
Okay so reduce it to 90-95% then to accomidate a possible tripping on the TR's part, or bad aim, or being distracted by an epically sexy female orc, or something.
Everybody rolls a 1 sometime on a 1d20.
Just don't make it something that translates to "using sneak attacks means you have a flaming neon sign above your head as people glitter bomb you".
I can see it reasonable as a TR you're revealed AFTER a successful Crit Hit, but if you miss the stealth should stay on. You can pull a Sir Robin then, or whatever is the next tactic.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
- trs do actually one shot a tank
- maybe i;m deaf... i see no reason for your headphones and i can take it as pure discrimination.
One other note: this should not be a fps where i can die from 1 shot, even there is not 1 shot all the time like is TR now.
And where did i said i like it. On a contrary i want piercing damage to be subject to dr and tenacity. This changes nothing for pve crowd but makes a viable step forward to tr "balance" (hate this word because it means so little in mmo's)
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
I don't have problems reading, but you try reading someone who speaks your language as a second language, their ability to convey meanings is sometimes lost. This is why I asked you to clarify, let's see if you did that.
So you have again insulted all players who are Saboteur like Sicarius, Dark Angel, Brollax, Nocturnal... etc? Interesting. These are very experienced players I think the vast majority of the PVP community would disagree with your premise.
Have i? Experience only ensures more kills/death ratio in their favour. It have nothing to do with simplicity. They are playing it because its the most "effective" build out there and easy at the same time. Do they sweat on it? Doubt that considering what i saw Sica did with people on icewind. So let me ask you a question. Apart from oneshot executor (which we know is just childish) which is an easier spec: scoundrel or saboteur?
Piercing damage is high damage primarily because, like the HR of last mod, it ignores DR. Ignoring DR is always a bad idea IMHO, why should people even bother with Defensive stats if this is the case? If, as you said "combined with 100% crit makes it an overkill by small margin" you are reiterating my point. I do think that everything should respect DR. This is another potential fix for the problem. They could also make SE respect DR. I'm advocating for a decrease in overall DPS for TRs (most especially MI's) related to the 2 problems you just reiterated for me. I'd be amenable to anything that aids in that cause. No TR should be able to one shot with a daily, have consistently extremely high dps related to DR ignoring and 100% crit chance uptime. You are still agreeing with me here, thank you. You keep referring to PVE, this is not a PVE discussion as I stated before. Post PVE suggestions in your own forum post please because they don't further the discussion here, thanks.
there is no pvp only discussion as its parallel. You cant simply say nerf something for pvp because its remotely impossible for the devs. Dont ask me why but we had seen that didn't we? Also i think you still have a problem with comprehention. Not only i made myself clear twice about piercing damage already but also said that to about 2 other posting forum members only here. Not counting the other topics.
If you think Sab, without the use of firststrike, don't 1 shot then you don't play PVP sir, or you are poorly specced or don't understand other specs, or you are intentionally dealing misinforamtion. Whichever of the 3 is the case it makes your argument here irrelevant. I have hours, HOURS of footage detailing single shot SE's after the recent patch that, umm, nerfed it.
Again look above and below for answers. Changes to piercing damage would be enough for most of it.
So the only proper spec for a TR is scoundrel? You really are stretching your credibility here, is this a troll? am I on like candid forum camera or something?
Nope but it is the only one requiring skill to be effective against good players whereas the sab and exe just benefit from design flaws and are much easier to pull off. just try it for yourself. Oh wait you do play saboteur already so why would you change for something not so good
Most end game players, myself included, do wear headphones. However this should not be a necessity to purchase in addition to the game in order to properly play. If that's the case it should state it in the game requirements.
Its not the tetris you know that don't you. Im not speaking about casual 2 times a day pvp where people hope to get a good group they would stick to and win by hanging on the end of the foodschain chain. I do speak about getting good at it and making progress regardless of the class.
In terms of having better gear this is true. However the problem is that even undergeared TR's right now are still one shotting said heavily geared, heavily skilled players because of feats and abilities (like DR ignoring abilites and 100%crit) are unbalancing PVP.
Again see for my comment about piercing damage. And also talk with someone that actualy played tr in mod 3 or so and ask about gs progress as oposed to gwf
I continue to read and hear the word "adapt" from TR's, I have to say I love this. It just continues to show how TRs want everyone else to "adapt" to their undodgeable, unmittagateable, tenacity ignoring abilites while unwilling to adapt to potential changes that may come to their class. To quote Inigo Montoyez "you keep using that word..." this is not a rant. This game is so gear dependant that in a current state of it its just unwise to cling to one setup when the meta changes. And i mean Any class not just vs TR fights. Small changes can make nice impact on the field. If u slot against overused build of certain class you adapt dont you?
The leaderboard is another discussion altogether, and I can guarantee that being page 1 isn't the goal of every PVPer, most experienced PVPers recognize the LB for what it is. Accepting the fate that is delivered by OP classes/encounters/feats/dailies is what I must do, but I can also come here and give viable feedback to the devs for said issues related to balancing and that is what I'm doing. This is another example of your selective reading. You underline in green words you like and make a sentence out of it losing wider context. Just as with almost anything i said so far (i think you have something to do with jehowah witnesses) was twisted by you so it could fit your cause. All i said is that people need to be prepared to not only win but lose. Thre will always be a bigger fish.
I can only assume that by "meat shields" you are referring to all "tanks" or tank hybrids in which case you are basically slapping at least 2/6ths of the gaming community in the face with your commentary. I always appreciate unbiased agendas like the one you are clearly forwarding.
explained already. If people are ignorant and oblivious about whats going on around them its just their loss
If only all TR's would heed your sage advice, perhaps they could learn to play their class properly. f2pma you listening? Nanners? You guys need to listen to this guy. You aren't playing your class right apparently. Apparently you only think you know. Better start following this fella's posts if you want to be pro. Already answered to that one. It just makes me laugh when you are trying to stand on the watch as the last righteous man and advocate something you came up with disregarding every other voice from real TRs. And knowing what i said i will ask you did your proposed changes were discussed with Nan? Or Sica? Hmm. Well i do like people with initiative but i wouldnt hire electrician to do the plumming if u catch my drift.
Thanks, I mean seriously, thank you so much for your post!
thank you too, but next time i suggest underlining in green the whole sentences otherwise you might lose the context. Maybe doing them in pink would also help you? idk?
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited December 2014
Devs have already set a precedent for skills having different effects in PVE than in PVP. Various forms of CC, Disheartening Strike damage, stealth reveal, tenacity, Frontline Surge, etc. It's no longer correct to say that devs can't adjust PVP without impacting PVE. Thus, OP's position is valid; this is only a PVP suggestion.
Devs have already set a precedent for skills having different effects in PVE than in PVP. Various forms of CC, Disheartening Strike damage, stealth reveal, tenacity, Frontline Surge, etc. It's no longer correct to say that devs can't adjust PVP without impacting PVE. Thus, OP's position is valid; this is only a PVP suggestion.
I dont know why people think piercing damage effects PVE. ARP is VERY VERY VERY easy to get to the cap. In fact most classes have atleast 10% built INTO their class from sheer stats alone. Look a Con on a GWF... Most have atleast 20 that = 10% ARP. Just throw on about 1200-1400 more and BOOM. CAPPED.
Piericing damage ONLY effects PVP. Again, it ONLY effects PVP because players have much more than 24% capped DR
(PVE).
So yes, they can EASILY do away with this type of damage that causes MASSIVE coding issues and MASSIVE balance issues. Just beef up all the damage feats/abilities by about 25%, then remove their ability to bypass all DR. DONE.
The PVE crowd should love this as its a buff for PVE. PVPers itll be a small nerf in damage.
Thats the real issue. The damage only really effects PVP. Or if you want to argue that would make those abilities too good in PVE (which I doubt) Then just give it a flat damage boost against other players. Something like (deals an additional 25% more damage to other players) or w.e.
Allow me, if you will, to voice this argument in a different format. I expect I will continue to get opposition from TRs who want do defend their class because it is fun to play the OP fotm class. These, however, are the facts as they stand:
1) TRs get 100% critical chance during stealth. No other class gets 100% critical save CW's only during EoS which is brief and not easily timed (read takes skill). All other classes have to spec into critical strike for this effect.
2) Feats such as shadowy opportunity, Exposed weakness, Shadow of Demise, and Gutterborn either diminish the targets defense or ignore it completely with piercing damage. All other classes have to spec into armor penetration for this effect.
3) Feats like Knife's edge in combination with BB reduce all your cooldowns to zero so that you always have all of your encounters up immediately following a daily, which after the encounters are used you can use another daily immediately. All other classes have to spec into recovery for this effect.
4) TRs are able to use a daily that ignores all defense, deflect, and even tenacity in combination with 100% critical from stealth. The damage on this daily is through the roof. It is a one shot depending on your power. All armor and tenacity on any class then becomes paper. There is no way to mitigate this. No other class has a encounter or daily that can be compared to this ability. It is THE most OP ability in the game.
5) TRs cannot be seen unless they attack you first. Most TR attacks from stealth will be aimed at stunning the target so that while you can see them you will be stunned. If they attempt gloaming cut they will come in, GC and dodge roll away hitting you for 8-14k and using only one of their many escape tactics (they will have multiple rolls, itc, and stuns ready if you happen to hit them at that point). No other class has as many escape and cc resist tactics as the TR.
6) TR has very high deflect capabilities built in to the class. Many stuns simply are deflected without the need for ITC.
7) TR has one of, if not the, highest AP gain of any of the classes in the game, allowing them to get their one shot daily up very quickly, or if they are pressed by 2-3v1 they can use BB to instantly refill all their encounters and reset any loss of rotation.
8) Depending on their build or feats they can do very high end burst damage even with little gear because their feats give them all the offense they need without having to gear for it. Crits (auto from stealth), critical severity (Arterial Cut), armorpen (Shadowy Opportunity), power (Shadowborn), recovery (Shadowy Preparations, Knife's Edge) ... all these are simply handed to the rogue through feats.
This is the primary problem, TRs are just handed offensive stats hand over fist far beyond what their gear would allow.
Now there are several proposed fixes to this issue:
1) Make all damage subject to DR, remove piercing damage and make SE respect DR/Tenacity.
2) Remove automatic crits from stealth allowing burst damage to be percentage based. You may one shot, you may not, it would depend on the roll of the dice.
3) Decrease the number of escapes TRs have, multiple dodge rolls/ITC/stealth/invulnerability during dailies/stuns. This is the equivalent to having more Armor than tanks as it's better to be able to avoid damage than it is to tank it.
4) Decrease base damage of encounters/at-wills
Now these are possibilities. Of which I would say removing automatic crit would work. However removing all DR ignoring feats/piercing damage as well as making SE respect DR and tenacity would work as well. Arguments could be made for or against any of these. However, to balance PVP and make it interesting/challenging for all classes, one of these needs to be addressed if not multiple. I would be amenable to anything that would give TRs a proverbial ch!nk in their leather armor. As it stands, they have too much going for them.
I could post an entirely different discussion about Scoundrels, particularly WK scoundrels and their CC abilities but dealing with this issue takes precedence over all. I'm still open to different opinions/viewpoints but the fact stands TRs need balancing and all classes except those TRs who refuse to admit they are unbalanced agree on it.
Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Great post. I'd add one more point about SE. Lots of newbie or simply ignorant TRs keep telling others to "learn2dodge" or "run more". That is not possible for 3 classes that have no dodge immunity: GF, GWF and SW. Their abilities only increase DR which is completely negated by SE.
I want TRs to be good, just not so great that no one wants to q for pvp without having at least 2 of them in their party.
I think it's rather ballsy of you to be referring to mostly just a few players from one guild when you say "no one."
In any case, if they make SE respect tenacity/DR, I think TR will be balanced, as long as tenacity doesn't negate too much of SE's damage. It should still hit really hard; just not essentially guarantee a kill the moment a player is at ~70-80% HP.
Great post. I'd add one more point about SE. Lots of newbie or simply ignorant TRs keep telling others to "learn2dodge" or "run more". That is not possible for 3 classes that have no dodge immunity: GF, GWF and SW. Their abilities only increase DR which is completely negated by SE.
Not to mention, any half decent TR will not use SE unless their target is dazed.
I think it's rather ballsy of you to be referring to mostly just a few players from one guild when you say "no one."
In any case, if they make SE respect tenacity/DR, I think TR will be balanced, as long as tenacity doesn't negate too much of SE's damage. It should still hit really hard; just not essentially guarantee a kill the moment a player is at ~70-80% HP.
To be fair Req, I have seen your guild as well as other guilds Qing with 2 TRs in their team so...
That said, I agree that SE is the biggest problem and I appreciate you adding your voice to that end.
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Devs have already set a precedent for skills having different effects in PVE than in PVP. Various forms of CC, Disheartening Strike damage, stealth reveal, tenacity, Frontline Surge, etc. It's no longer correct to say that devs can't adjust PVP without impacting PVE. Thus, OP's position is valid; this is only a PVP suggestion.
There is no way to remove 100% crit from stealth just from PvP. And in PvE it's a needed DPS boost.
If 100% crit from stealth is removed then I want EotS nerfed for SS CWs. Fair's fair.
There is no way to remove 100% crit from stealth just from PvP. And in PvE it's a needed DPS boost.
If 100% crit from stealth is removed then I want EotS nerfed for SS CWs. Fair's fair.
There most definitely are ways to code separate effects for PVP and PVE, they already do. FLS knocks prone in PVE it does not in PVP, this is one of many encounters/feats that work differently in different environments. Let's try and stay on PVP here, feel free to start another forum post about PVE and TRs dps.
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Comments
i took some pcp angel dust and
sudenly i see you was right all along
tr dont need dmg or stealth coz we can fly i forgot all abouth it
im so sory man
This is not a l2p issue. Tyrion is top 5 GWF in the game in time spent practicing vs. high quality TRs. Many, many months of practice. In fact, he wrote this post after spending > 6 hours in dwarven valley practicing vs TRs in 1v1 and 2v1. He speaks from experience, and he is correct. Given their ability to survive, TRs can do too much spike damage with SE.
Iyon the Dark
now tell me what class could tr kill 1v1 with se nerf and stealth auto crit removed
well i still want to hear opinion from lyon
hes online so im waiting with a smile
btw i was fighting scoundrel bis gear he couldnt kill me even with 30 sec daily bb so bad dmg
cant imagine getting killed with such changes
That'd be interesting. I don't presume to know the answer before testing such changes. Might be overkill. But I have tested the current stuff and it is significantly imbalanced. I want TRs to be good, just not so great that no one wants to q for pvp without having at least 2 of them in their party.
Iyon the Dark
ty for your time
real players appreciate good trs in a match
going all out for some stupid nerfs not cool at all
Also might not be overkill. Point is, TRs can do too much damage. Hopefully you at least agree on that. Assuming you do, what is your proposed solution?
Tyrion isn't trying to 'go all out', he is simply proposing 1 reasonable solution. It would still require testing to make sure it wasn't too far (or not far enough). If there are alternative solutions, please share.
Iyon the Dark
Not entirely. Im against 100% crit removal. Im after unmitigable damage sab and exe are causing. This combined with first strike change would remove oneshot once and for all (by oneshot i mean oneshot on tanks, not low gs pug).
And i was not speaking about his admirable Gwf skills but on Tr ones.
Seems reasonable to me. If cryptic went this route, could work.
On the 100% crit removal:
I am not against the possibility of a TR doing 35k - 45k with a shocking. I'm against it happening 100% of the time (when stealthed). 25% - 35% chance to do 35k - 45k with daily may be fine for an executioner TR.
Iyon the Dark
how can you defend your self from something or someone you cant see? would you like that 100% crit chance to be changed to 100% ignore DR?
he wants crit nerf , daily nerf and by hes own words stealth reveal is fine
so that is all out .
yeah try to fight dc with stealth reveal and no viable daily .
my opinion is tr has no place in the mid with a single encounter its dualist class
1v1 has no utility on mid what so ever
so it needs to be viable
but not as running on cap in stealth but fighting on a cap
No, here is what he proposed in the OP: "take away the assured crit from stealth. " That's it. With OP's proposal, your SE can still 1-shot. It will just be less likely. Maybe 33% of time rather than 100% of time.
He said the stealth reveal isn't that significant, and therefore he doesn't care if they revert it.
Again, from tyrion: "I never proposed the idea of stealth reveal, I don't particularly like it, I simply stated what its effects are on the preview shard."
Iyon the Dark
Translates to - " I cannot see you, nor hear you, nor know where you are, but I don't want it assured you hit me."
Okay so reduce it to 90-95% then to accomidate a possible tripping on the TR's part, or bad aim, or being distracted by an epically sexy female orc, or something.
Everybody rolls a 1 sometime on a 1d20.
Just don't make it something that translates to "using sneak attacks means you have a flaming neon sign above your head as people glitter bomb you".
I can see it reasonable as a TR you're revealed AFTER a successful Crit Hit, but if you miss the stealth should stay on. You can pull a Sir Robin then, or whatever is the next tactic.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
And where did i said i like it. On a contrary i want piercing damage to be subject to dr and tenacity. This changes nothing for pve crowd but makes a viable step forward to tr "balance" (hate this word because it means so little in mmo's)
Close. "I cannot see you, nor hear you, nor know where you are, so therefore I don't think it's balanced that you can 1-shot me."
100% chance to crit <> 100% chance to hit. Also, i don't actually agree with the quote above. TR can be heard and seen a little.
Iyon the Dark
Iyon the Dark
I dont know why people think piercing damage effects PVE. ARP is VERY VERY VERY easy to get to the cap. In fact most classes have atleast 10% built INTO their class from sheer stats alone. Look a Con on a GWF... Most have atleast 20 that = 10% ARP. Just throw on about 1200-1400 more and BOOM. CAPPED.
Piericing damage ONLY effects PVP. Again, it ONLY effects PVP because players have much more than 24% capped DR
(PVE).
So yes, they can EASILY do away with this type of damage that causes MASSIVE coding issues and MASSIVE balance issues. Just beef up all the damage feats/abilities by about 25%, then remove their ability to bypass all DR. DONE.
The PVE crowd should love this as its a buff for PVE. PVPers itll be a small nerf in damage.
Thats the real issue. The damage only really effects PVP. Or if you want to argue that would make those abilities too good in PVE (which I doubt) Then just give it a flat damage boost against other players. Something like (deals an additional 25% more damage to other players) or w.e.
Now its fixed for PVP and doesnt touch PVE.
1) TRs get 100% critical chance during stealth. No other class gets 100% critical save CW's only during EoS which is brief and not easily timed (read takes skill). All other classes have to spec into critical strike for this effect.
2) Feats such as shadowy opportunity, Exposed weakness, Shadow of Demise, and Gutterborn either diminish the targets defense or ignore it completely with piercing damage. All other classes have to spec into armor penetration for this effect.
3) Feats like Knife's edge in combination with BB reduce all your cooldowns to zero so that you always have all of your encounters up immediately following a daily, which after the encounters are used you can use another daily immediately. All other classes have to spec into recovery for this effect.
4) TRs are able to use a daily that ignores all defense, deflect, and even tenacity in combination with 100% critical from stealth. The damage on this daily is through the roof. It is a one shot depending on your power. All armor and tenacity on any class then becomes paper. There is no way to mitigate this. No other class has a encounter or daily that can be compared to this ability. It is THE most OP ability in the game.
5) TRs cannot be seen unless they attack you first. Most TR attacks from stealth will be aimed at stunning the target so that while you can see them you will be stunned. If they attempt gloaming cut they will come in, GC and dodge roll away hitting you for 8-14k and using only one of their many escape tactics (they will have multiple rolls, itc, and stuns ready if you happen to hit them at that point). No other class has as many escape and cc resist tactics as the TR.
6) TR has very high deflect capabilities built in to the class. Many stuns simply are deflected without the need for ITC.
7) TR has one of, if not the, highest AP gain of any of the classes in the game, allowing them to get their one shot daily up very quickly, or if they are pressed by 2-3v1 they can use BB to instantly refill all their encounters and reset any loss of rotation.
8) Depending on their build or feats they can do very high end burst damage even with little gear because their feats give them all the offense they need without having to gear for it. Crits (auto from stealth), critical severity (Arterial Cut), armorpen (Shadowy Opportunity), power (Shadowborn), recovery (Shadowy Preparations, Knife's Edge) ... all these are simply handed to the rogue through feats.
This is the primary problem, TRs are just handed offensive stats hand over fist far beyond what their gear would allow.
Now there are several proposed fixes to this issue:
1) Make all damage subject to DR, remove piercing damage and make SE respect DR/Tenacity.
2) Remove automatic crits from stealth allowing burst damage to be percentage based. You may one shot, you may not, it would depend on the roll of the dice.
3) Decrease the number of escapes TRs have, multiple dodge rolls/ITC/stealth/invulnerability during dailies/stuns. This is the equivalent to having more Armor than tanks as it's better to be able to avoid damage than it is to tank it.
4) Decrease base damage of encounters/at-wills
Now these are possibilities. Of which I would say removing automatic crit would work. However removing all DR ignoring feats/piercing damage as well as making SE respect DR and tenacity would work as well. Arguments could be made for or against any of these. However, to balance PVP and make it interesting/challenging for all classes, one of these needs to be addressed if not multiple. I would be amenable to anything that would give TRs a proverbial ch!nk in their leather armor. As it stands, they have too much going for them.
I could post an entirely different discussion about Scoundrels, particularly WK scoundrels and their CC abilities but dealing with this issue takes precedence over all. I'm still open to different opinions/viewpoints but the fact stands TRs need balancing and all classes except those TRs who refuse to admit they are unbalanced agree on it.
Thanks for your time.
Great post. I'd add one more point about SE. Lots of newbie or simply ignorant TRs keep telling others to "learn2dodge" or "run more". That is not possible for 3 classes that have no dodge immunity: GF, GWF and SW. Their abilities only increase DR which is completely negated by SE.
I think it's rather ballsy of you to be referring to mostly just a few players from one guild when you say "no one."
In any case, if they make SE respect tenacity/DR, I think TR will be balanced, as long as tenacity doesn't negate too much of SE's damage. It should still hit really hard; just not essentially guarantee a kill the moment a player is at ~70-80% HP.
Not to mention, any half decent TR will not use SE unless their target is dazed.
To be fair Req, I have seen your guild as well as other guilds Qing with 2 TRs in their team so...
That said, I agree that SE is the biggest problem and I appreciate you adding your voice to that end.
Thanks for your reply.
If 100% crit from stealth is removed then I want EotS nerfed for SS CWs. Fair's fair.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
There most definitely are ways to code separate effects for PVP and PVE, they already do. FLS knocks prone in PVE it does not in PVP, this is one of many encounters/feats that work differently in different environments. Let's try and stay on PVP here, feel free to start another forum post about PVE and TRs dps.
Thanks for your reply.