I am hereby taking a hiatus on my GWF until the TR is fixed. I have fought 1v1, 2v1, and even tried multiple different classes against the end game TR and even after the "nerf" to the TR it can still 2v1 other classes of equal gear and win. All a saboteur TR must do to win is take off barkshield, then stun with any number of stuns and then daily with SE. They can still essentially one shot GWF's, HR's, SW's, and CW's. All they must do is remove either barkshield or make sure that the CW's shield is removed and it is light's out. Scoundrels have more CC than CW's with their ability to Permastun and Executioner's can take a toons health down to 1/4 of their life with a single lashing blade or kill them outright with a SE. The only way to combat an end game TR is to place a 2v1 with a DC and some control/dps class like CW or GWF against the TR and even then it is going to be a difficult fight.
I am usually very patient and try to place my trust in the developers to realize when a class is too strong and take the appropriate action. However I am very frustrated at the strength they have given TR's this mod in combination with all the other utility the class already has. They have stealth so they can't be found, if you do happen to find them they can use impossible to catch from stealth and be immune to damage or just save it until you finally control them and then they just skip away merrily to go back into stealth or deflect your stuns with high deflect chance, they have CC in the form of stuns that last as long or longer than any other class has available, they have high dps feats and skills in combination with 100% crit from stealth, and they have dailies that ignore all DR and tenacity. I honestly don't know what the philosophy behind this was but it is, unquestionably, the most unbalanced class in the game at the moment and, imho, that has ever existed in the game.
By not at least removing the 100% crit from stealth this class is broken enough to make PVP unplayable for all other classes as you must dedicate multiple players to a node in order to defeat the TR and whoever you send will take multiple deaths while trying.
Devs, please hear me, you must fix the TR or PVP is simply a game of who has the most TR's on their team. I have always thought you would work in this direction, and I see you have attempted to fix their imbalance, however it's simply not enough/not the right fix. I would implore you again, take away 100% crit from stealth. I now would also add to this that SE should at least respect tenacity if not full DR. It is too much. Please make this game fun again.
Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
The only way to combat an end game TR is to place a 2v1 with a DC and some control/dps class like CW or GWF against the TR and even then it is going to be a difficult fight.
. I have fought 1v1, 2v1, and even tried multiple different classes against the end game TR and even after the "nerf" to the TR it can still 2v1 other classes of equal gear and win. .
you said it yourself
you have a tr T. Baggins - Saboteur TR
when you cant counter tr against tr
its only a skill problem isnt it .
this kinda sucks coz u realy want to play gwf and kill tr
and that is not happening any time soon
I find it confusing that a BiS PvP player that is from a well known guild and faces up against well know guilds, can make a post like this and have people who still say it's bogus. To make matters worse, he has a Twitch account that shows THESE VERY THINGS happening to him and his teammate. Not only that but HE HAS THE CLASS.
I am glad you are finding it more balanced, and honest enough to say so
I suspect many TR's using the SAB tree will just go for an all out attack - kill or be killed approach. The SAB has no defence except stealth, so with the stealth reveal, limited defence, lack of movement speed as well for WK (regardless of the rubbish posted upon this forum this is true) if they want to attack in PVP their options are limited.
I am not saying this is wrong, or unbalanced, just pointing it out as a fact. So expect it, especially if you are a CW which easily one shots, one rotates SAB's - not to mention easily applied control effects because no immunity, again especially for WK - who again regardless of rubbish posted upon these forums do not have things like ITC
But again if the changes are feeling more balanced then they probably are, and that's a good thing imo
And I am glad at least one person is honest enough to say so
All the best
Matthew
Not saying it is balanced for sure. Just that it seems more fair at first sight. At least in pugs i see normal k/d ratios. Seen a 7/3 on 14k TR where before i'd see a 19/0.
Also a 19/1 but it was an un air match and even my instigator was 16/0 in that game. Just saying TRs seem to be still able to be assassins, just less survivable.
But i'm not good enough to say if it's balanced for sure or share insight about bis level experience.
Yesterday, on a side note, i stumbled against a exodus premade. Match was a failure with 11k and 9k for my team. But got a chance to vs a 24k pathfinder with my 17k nab gwf and could put up a fight. Surprisingly. Even forced him to retreat in stealth feat times. He was stealthing a lot (ap cloack and DC arti i guess), and i lost as it should be, but it was a fair fight. Have to say he was using black glyphs like me and not the imho broken reds.
Just to say stealth can still be useful and effective even when you are not 90% of the time invisibile, just not as unfair as it was before patch. TRs are obviously not HRs, but it's to say how different it is when you can actually fight back.
Now i see some similarities with HRs who are weak to CWs. If some balance is needed there then for sure it must be done. Red glyphs must have icd and cws can use some more survivability i guess. TRs might need some more tankiness?
Can't say for sure but imho less permastealth is a good starting point to find real balance. Devs can buff other sources of survivability perhaps.
What he means is that once proned deflection does not work at all. You still get DR from defence and tenacity but your deflect chance is zero until the prone ends.
Scoundrel daze procs are from crits only and have maximum 50% uptime assuming the TR crits every 5 seconds. Skullcracker (capstone) works from encounters only, is easy to waste, and is base 4 seconds every 15 seconds.
this is incorrect. if you are proned, deflection chance is not zero.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKAWrJot1iA&list=UUhPmvoFXVyxAI3gv30-z4tQ&index=4
False forward to 2:34 because i bullcharge him, then i use frontline surge then terrifying impact while he was proned and he deflected the terrifying impact. But if you watch the whole video you will see he deflect a lot while he was proned.
I find it confusing that a BiS PvP player that is from a well known guild and faces up against well know guilds, can make a post like this and have people who still say it's bogus. To make matters worse, he has a Twitch account that shows THESE VERY THINGS happening to him and his teammate. Not only that but HE HAS THE CLASS.
i seen plenty high end players write nerf threads in which they go all out
same like this one
not a single serious pvp player can agree with this post
nerf dailys -one in 3 crits by his own words which is still not enough and daily nerf coz one may get lucky and crit daily gc and daze and kill a gwf
35% crit-gc crit 4-5k on tank so non crit 1-2k tops,daze one out of 5 crit if lucky and not deflected
stealth reveal-after more then 70% dmg nerfs tr needs 5x time more for a kill and enemy has 10 x more chance to kill revealed tr
so basicaly hes proposing that tr can stalemate no kill and 1v2 die in a blink
nice balance
also in this video at 0:14 i hit the tr with bullcharge which proned him and then i used lunging strike with got deflected. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_spERC8XsSg&index=5&list=UUhPmvoFXVyxAI3gv30-z4tQ
i am not to sure where people got the idea that you cannot deflect while proned. If this was through i think gfs would be the strongest class in the game. I have witness other times when my attacks were deflected by a proned target but i don't have any videos of those.
I find it confusing that a BiS PvP player that is from a well known guild and faces up against well know guilds, can make a post like this and have people who still say it's bogus. To make matters worse, he has a Twitch account that shows THESE VERY THINGS happening to him and his teammate. Not only that but HE HAS THE CLASS.
Top level PvP is pretty much irrelevant to the vast majority of this game's playerbase. And players in that elite group are known to be 'economical with the truth' when posting on here. Twitch streams and video mean just about nothing - combat logs, on the other hand, would be more convincing.
You have to realise that most people's personal experience does not align with most of these posts. For whatever reason.
Yes you can, you put a TR against the TR and may the best TR win, or you may get lucky enough to fight the TR when he doesn't have his daily up for that brief interval he is vulnerable. This doesn't negate my point. Given a 1v1 situation with no outside aid there is no class save another TR that can consistently kill a TR. If you have proof otherwise, I'll be glad to take a look at it.
Thanks for your reply.
PS. I think I may have caught what I think you are insinuating. If we put a CW and GWF on the TR then we can win or if we put a DPS DC and another class on the TR we can win. However this is actually only proving my point further. If you don't put two people on the TR, end game, one of them tanky (in the GWF/CW case the CW is actually tankier with shield) then whoever tries to clear a TR 1v1 will die save perhaps another TR. This is my point. If you send any classes with HP in the 44k or less range against a TR then you risk losing at least one of them and perhaps both of them if the TR is skilled.
The mod 4 meta was to stall the node with a perma stealth TR. They weren't going to kill anyone and they were killer hard to remove if they were good. This was fair. In a 2v1 scenario the TR should only hope to stay alive as long as he can. Then they buffed the TR and now in mod 5 the same perma has the possibility to actually clear both of his attackers depending on skill and timing.
IMHO you should have one ability or the other but not both. However most of the TR's ridiculous clearing ability comes from 100% crit SE that ignores all DR and tenacity. Thus I am trying to fix that issue by bringing it to the attention of the Devs here.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
you said it yourself
you have a tr T. Baggins - Saboteur TR
when you cant counter tr against tr
its only a skill problem isnt it .
this kinda sucks coz u realy want to play gwf and kill tr
and that is not happening any time soon
You can put a TR against a TR and the best TR will win. So all you are proving here is my point. The team with the most TR's wins. Thanks for continuing to show the imbalance with your posts f2pma, I appreciate you aiding my cause.
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
this kinda sucks coz u realy want to play gwf and kill tr
and that is not happening any time soon
Being able to kill a class using any other class, if you're skilled enough, is called balance.
But i really start to believe many TRs just want their easy mode stealth to pew pew kill stuff and stay out of reach while thinking they are skilled.
You made me remember this TR posting ages ago when Iron Vanguard was first introduced for GWF. And he stated he could easily kite any GWF forever and kill them before IV, and now with threat rush he was finding it difficult to kite.
So for this guy being able to kite another class forever was "balanced".
So for TRs like you it's a sin if some change makes them vulnerable against, let's say, CWs, but it's okay to state that "it sucks coz you realy want to play gwf and kill tr and that is not happening any time soon".
I hope you're talking about a rock/ paper/ scissors scenario where specific classes are a counter for other classes,
And even in that case, it's not the right way for NW since group composition is random and you can easily end up with no counter for another class in the enemy team.
Being able to kill a class using any other class, if you're skilled enough, is called balance.
But i really start to believe many TRs just want their easy mode stealth to pew pew kill stuff and stay out of reach while thinking they are skilled.
You made me remember this TR posting ages ago when Iron Vanguard was first introduced for GWF. And he stated he could easily kite any GWF forever and kill them before IV, and now with threat rush he was finding it difficult to kite.
So for this guy being able to kite another class forever was "balanced".
So for TRs like you it's a sin if some change makes them vulnerable against, let's say, CWs, but it's okay to state that "it sucks coz you realy want to play gwf and kill tr and that is not happening any time soon".
I hope you're talking about a rock/ paper/ scissors scenario where specific classes are a counter for other classes,
And even in that case, it's not the right way for NW since group composition is random and you can easily end up with no counter for another class in the enemy team.
I understand why TR's post that their class is just fine, people love having an OP toon. It's fun killing indiscriminately, after a while of it you can even convince yourself that it's skill. People with OP classes start to believe their own propaganda after a while and think to themselves that the reason they have ridiculous K/D ratios is because they are really, really good.
The funny thing is I could replicate these K/D ratios circa mod 3 when roar was live and well. The thing is, I knew it was a class problem. The GWF was broken, it was too strong. I told fellow GWF's it was our death knell, and for most of mod 4 GWF's suffered as a result. What people don't realize is that a huge buff to your class is actually dangerous to your class overall. Here's the simple reason why. When you are OP in a class the other classes will begin to complain en masse about these features/skilsl/encounters. When they finally get heard by the devs, rather than the devs simply fixing the one or two broken issues that exist they come in with a nerf hammer. The end result is worse than if people who play the class would simply come clean as to what is broken and why.
I don't want to see any class nerfed to death or buffed to ridiculousness. I don't mind that I can't 1v1 a TR (well it does make me grumble a bit) but the fact that even in a 2v1 scenario the TR has the potential to win is just broken. It just is. It's not a rock paper scissors game then it's a "ok we can only win against a rock with another rock or with paper AND scissors and paper is just going to die a lot" game. That is not good balance, it is not fun PVP. This is what I hope the Devs will fix.
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
My problem with TR;s is that they are hybrid dmg dealers: They have both big hits (hp/deflection as counter) and small frequent hits (HP/def as a counter). Now they also have piercing dmg that pretty much takes away my def/tenacity/deflect and SE that ignores all, so it is really hard to build a defense against them: I say lower their dmg cause atm it is a bit too much.
Stealth change was a rly good thing and 2 seconds is the perfect timing. For the most part i am having rly balanced fights vs 17k TRs (i am 22kGS GWF) but ofc similar gs trs are still way too much.
And please look into HR ap building cause now they are like TRs regarding stealth...
It's not the class AP building rates that are the problem - the original poster of this topic has already said it's the artefact that give this ability. But of course its OP upon a TR for SE and not OP for other classes - again at least you are upon the right track if you want balance, having any daily up more frequently than I have my encounters up (again according to original poster) is imho OP
But that the point really - most people don't want balance
Example - I just bought a couple of new character slots to play classes I have not played before. One being a DC - reached level 14 and Q for the PVP quest. So PVP at level 10 to 19 - the lowest of the lows, playing with 3 completely new players to the game upon my team - against you guessed it a premade team with perfect weapon enchants and what haves you. Result after some explanations as to what was go on and why they were getting slaughtered - three new players who have been put off of playing the PVP parts of the games completely.
So no - people so not want balance
Like this topic - pick three things you think are over powered about TR's and then use that as a reason to call for a complete reduction in all damages by any encounters or at will that that class has - very fair logic, I don't think
It's not the class AP building rates that are the problem - the original poster of this topic has already said it's the artefact that give this ability. But of course its OP upon a TR for SE and not OP for other classes - again at least you are upon the right track if you want balance, having any daily up more frequently than I have my encounters up (again according to original poster) is imho OP
But that the point really - most people don't want balance
Example - I just bought a couple of new character slots to play classes I have not played before. One being a DC - reached level 14 and Q for the PVP quest. So PVP at level 10 to 19 - the lowest of the lows, playing with 3 completely new players to the game upon my team - against you guessed it a premade team with perfect weapon enchants and what haves you. Result after some explanations as to what was go on and why they were getting slaughtered - three new players who have been put off of playing the PVP parts of the games completely.
So no - people so not want balance
Like this topic - pick three things you think are over powered about TR's and then use that as a reason to call for a complete reduction in all damages by any encounters or at will that that class has - very fair logic, I don't think
While most of your post is off topic, I do agree that griefing lowbies is allowed because of equipment that allows you to slot weapon enchantments at low levels. Also anyone who has a BIS toon can transfer said rank 10's to their alts. Twinking is a phenomenon that has a long and storied tradition in MMO's and while I agree it should not be allowed it really doesn't pertain to the fact that TR's have abilities that do too much dps related to guaranteed crit chance and feats as well as dailies that ignore DR/tenacity.
Now this is exacerbated by the fact that they can use dailies almost continuously via the cleric artifact, black ice cloak, strong AP gain of the class, Lathander's dew but the fact would exist even if all artificial AP gain was done away with that the DPS for the class is too strong considering all the other utility they get. The simple fix is to get rid of 100% crit chance from stealth. TR's would continue to get combat advantage and their feat damage but it means they only have a chance to one shot someone with their daily and that they have a chance to take away 3/4ths of someones life with LB. The other thing is that SE should not ignore all DR and tenacity, nothing should, ever.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
When you are OP in a class the other classes will begin to complain en masse about these features/skilsl/encounters. When they finally get heard by the devs, rather than the devs simply fixing the one or two broken issues that exist they come in with a nerf hammer.
this /\
mod 2/3 GWF could have been balanced with few small tweaks(TR, roar etc), especially with how much piercing damage is around now, instead they destroyed the class, just like they did with TR before, history repeats itself, hopefully its our mod1 again for gwfs and well get buffed in mod6
artifact is a problem, but even if you get less SE still daily 1shotting about ANY class is NOT ok
even without 100% crit it would still be a problem, SE should never be able to 1shot PVP geared BiS(or close to that) player, NEVER
i think the main problem in pvp is that there is too much damage, if ppl had like 2x health(and heals/regen and some defensive abilities reduced accordingly) it would be much better
Learn to adapt. Mod5 TR revamp was a big step, whether its a right choice or in wrong direction, devs have made their decisions, then we spent 3 weeks+ on preview learning the new machanics and combos before it hits live. 2 weeks into the mod dmg received a nerf, then we failed our petition at that bull**** 2 second reveal compaign. It's already hard for us to play but now 100% crit chance whines and not enough reveal, seriously dude? whats next? too much dodge roll? too much ITC? too much movement speed? too much dots? theres never enough for a gwf till you wanna see this class hammer back to mod4 or even worse, is it? if you are a power build, aiming to one shot ppl with 30k from a feat, you are supposed to be squishier, want to take a hit? then tweek around your defensive stats balance your toon.
I already stated my feedback the main problem with new TR meta was not because of perma stealth, but 100% crit in stealth + piercing, cos we cld perma in previous mods but never wasnt a big threat cos 0 dmg, makes sense? however devs went ahead implemented what they wanted anyways, and now you want this to be removed as well? Im happy to go back to mod4 dmg but you gotta give the old machanics back. I have tried my best to suggest and defend the class in sicarius' posts but now changes are made, im willing to relearn and adapt, so should you.
Hey Devs, I love this game, I love the new module I'm previewing, I love the graphics, storyline, and all the hard work you do but... Stahp hitting the nerf button, please? I have played several MMO's and I completely understand that balancing classes in PVP and PVE settings is THE most difficult thing to do in a game. However, it seems that the go to solution is always nerfdom. What do you get from the gamer community when you nerf their class? Bitter tears, anger, angst, and disgust. If I might offer a different perspective... Buff the other classes instead. Now, I know what you're thinking, "do you know how much harder it is to buff the other classes to help mitigate a particularly OP encounter or feat?", and I completely get that. However, from a gamer's perspective, a happy client is a continual client and more likely to be a paying client. You only stand to win when you buff classes rather than nerf. The other issue with continually nerfing an ability or stat or feat is that people spend countless hours (and Zen) finely honing their character through practice, gameplay, theorycrafting, and forum delving to create that perfect blend of spec and gear, then with one single mash of the nerf button you have undone all of that. It makes those players who spent so much time (and zen) developing those builds a lil miffed to say the least, and lets face it... who spends more money on the game? Those who play casually and are always low GS and complain about this class feature or that class encounter... or the ones who spend hours playing hardcore PVP or try to always top the DPS charts in PVE? Would you rather alienate your core clientele or win with all players of every class who always get excited when a Buff is coming their way? If the game becomes a continual character build-nerf-rebuild-nerf as it is beginning to feel like then you will likely lose the interest of those who feel outmoded with each new update or module. However if everyone looked forward to the newest update to see what buffs their class will receive then I think you will find more positive feedback, overall, about the game. Thanks for your time.
Well said and you should revisit this and try think about how it feels if this is done to your class this time, and how much of the finger we received by spending money and effort to build around certain aspect of the class. i see this post is nothing but a more tr whine thread. enough is enough, the chain of nerfing isnt a way to balance things, buff other classes and sometimes you have to stand on another angle to see the whole picture.
I would let the devs make their decisions by professional game testing and accept whatever they would do to any class cos i will learn to adapt, because it will be balanced and everything has a counter. but from what i see on nw stream they have little idea about their own game and forum qqs somehow do have a huge impact on their desicions.
I do, the best way to adapt to these changes is to PVP with multiple TR's. That's balanced PVP eh? When adaptation becomes running troll comps to defeat TR's then you must revisit the TR and see why this is the case.
2 weeks into the mod dmg received a nerf, then we failed our petition at that bull**** 2 second reveal compaign.
I never advocated for the reveal from stealth, I would be fine with no reveal as the 2 seconds TR's are revealed the stunned class who just got hit by a shadowstrike/dazing strike now gets to watch as the TR launches into the air to take the other 90% of their life. It's beautiful right before you are sent back to spawn.
Aiming to one shot ppl with 30k from a feat, you are supposed to be squishier, want to take a hit? then tweek around your defensive stats balance your toon.
I assume you are talking about my GWF here, in which case I will comically pull you back to reality, read me the tooltip for SE please? Oh wait, allow me: "Leap up and strike with a vicious attack that ignores your targets defense. If you hit a target who is below 20% Hit Points your AP is refilled. This effect can only trigger once before Shocking Execution will consume AP." I'm sorry, you were saying?
Oh and if you happen to get your target to low health with your 100% crit uptime then you can finish him with SE and reuse it on the next target without even using DC artifact.
I already stated my feedback the main problem with new TR meta was not because of perma stealth, but 100% crit in stealth + piercing, cos we cld perma in previous mods but never wasnt a big threat cos 0 dmg, makes sense? however devs went ahead implemented what they wanted anyways, and now you want this to be removed as well? Im happy to go back to mod4 dmg but you gotta give the old machanics back.
I'm happy we agree here. Thanks for reiterating what I've already stated.
As for my previous posts, I had to respend zen and AD after the changes to the GWF (btw to put this in perspective this particular post was prior to mod 3. I was advocating they not implement the changes to the GWF making the OP destroyer of mod 3, just a lil backstory). I then also had to do it all over again for mod 4 when we payed dearly for the changes they made to "balance" the mod 3 destroyer. So I guess I would have to say that it may be you who has to adapt this time in order to balance the game. I'm sorry.
Enough is enough, the chain of nerfing isnt a way to balance things, buff other classes and sometimes you have to stand on another angle to see the whole picture.
Nerfing isn't the way to balance things, changing broken features so that they work appropriately is. How do you buff other classes so that they can deal with damage that can't be mitigated? You can't, therefore you must go back to the drawing board and look at piercing damage/damage that ignores DR. Look at exactly why it was that you allow a class to crit 100% of the time when every other class has to actually try and build into crit as a spec? It's not nerfing, it's balancing.
I would let the devs make their decisions by professional game testing and accept whatever they would do to any class cos i will learn to adapt, because it will be balanced and everything has a counter. but from what i see on nw stream they have little idea about their own game and forum qqs somehow do have a huge impact on their desicions.
It's not up to me to "let" the devs make decisions, it's what they do. It is however up to me as a user of their content and a customer to share with the dev team what my findings in the game are. It is then of course their prerogative to address it or not. I have no delusions of grandeur here, I'm just trying to offer constructive feedback to better the game and PVP in general. As for learning to adapt, it's interesting that TR's tend to use this line on every other class, but if there are potential changes to their own class then I don't hear any of them saying, it's ok we will adapt to any changes they throw at us, hmm interesting.
Thanks for your reply
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
ok so a tr can hit for 14k gloaming cut on a hr. This is an at-will. I think that tr's should have to use encounters to hit hard. Now this isn't going to happen with the nerf to stealth already live but, this is what i though would have been a good idea.
1. Executions will be the damage dealers who use encounters to hit really really hard and ofc they will be sacrificing utility skills and stealth if they want to hit really hard.
2. Sab should not be hitting 14k with at-wills. Said should have the option of perma stealth but not both. They should(imho) like dps and then compensate for that in high stealth capabilities.
3. Scoundrel have really good cc's. Arguable to good. But they have the ability to tank more effectively outside of stealth and still have good damage. The ccs are the only real thing that make them overpowered. They should have ccs but should be resistable and/or reduced duration and/or longer icd. After all they proc ccs.
You can put a TR against a TR and the best TR will win. So all you are proving here is my point. The team with the most TR's wins. Thanks for continuing to show the imbalance with your posts f2pma, I appreciate you aiding my cause.
Thanks for your reply.
u realy are desperate lol by now i bet u thinking i never should have made this post
but anyway
since you admited that u cant counter tr vs tr
it doesnt prove tr is broken
just that you play bad
me on the other hand love to see trs in enemy team and its most fun matches for me
only thing i hated was bb perma daily and that was fixed
ok so a tr can hit for 14k gloaming cut on a hr. This is an at-will. I think that tr's should have to use encounters to hit hard. Now this isn't going to happen with the nerf to stealth already live but, this is what i though would have been a good idea.
1. Executions will be the damage dealers who use encounters to hit really really hard and ofc they will be sacrificing utility skills and stealth if they want to hit really hard.
2. Sab should not be hitting 14k with at-wills. Said should have the option of perma stealth but not both. They should(imho) like dps and then compensate for that in high stealth capabilities.
3. Scoundrel have really good cc's. Arguable to good. But they have the ability to tank more effectively outside of stealth and still have good damage. The ccs are the only real thing that make them overpowered. They should have ccs but should be resistable and/or reduced duration and/or longer icd. After all they proc ccs.
You just negated your statement considering HR's have two at wills that can hit for about the same damage. Aimed Strike and Aimed Shot. (Aimed strike can do literally the same, just over time.)
And I've NEVER bit crit for no where near as much by a gloaming cut. Cause I know when a TR is going to do it, and learn pretty quickly which TR's rely on it during a match.
I dont disagree entirely with 2. But I feel sab's damage is fine, its the shadowy opportunity people were abusing with certain skills being the problem.
Itc I am very mixed about right now. Its a gift and a curse essentially. With itc, its very difficult to deal with perma stealth rogues, but at the same time its needed simply because of CW's, soon as they catch anything for just a moment its dead due to thier abilities hitting so hard and disabling people into becoming essentially a pinata.
You just negated your statement considering HR's have two at wills that can hit for about the same damage. Aimed Strike and Aimed Shot. (Aimed strike can do literally the same, just over time.)
Aimed strike does like half of aimed shot. just sayinh
Aimed shot? sitting duck much? not to mention the time you waste when interrupted. Might work for some, but it's kinda like a cheap shot. It cannot compare to how dynamic a TR is.
This is utter nonsense, I'm playing against TR's with 800 protection and 5k attack
I hope it gets better at level 60.
Someone should really make a capture of 2 TR's fighting lol
I am agree with Tyrion , sure since beta on each mod one or 2 class was OP or broken randomly , but admit it , it s the only first time u see player who have 4000/50 or 3500/38 kill death ratio .
You just negated your statement considering HR's have two at wills that can hit for about the same damage. Aimed Strike and Aimed Shot. (Aimed strike can do literally the same, just over time.)
And I've NEVER bit crit for no where near as much by a gloaming cut. Cause I know when a TR is going to do it, and learn pretty quickly which TR's rely on it during a match.
I dont disagree entirely with 2. But I feel sab's damage is fine, its the shadowy opportunity people were abusing with certain skills being the problem.
Itc I am very mixed about right now. Its a gift and a curse essentially. With itc, its very difficult to deal with perma stealth rogues, but at the same time its needed simply because of CW's, soon as they catch anything for just a moment its dead due to thier abilities hitting so hard and disabling people into becoming essentially a pinata.
Comments
I am usually very patient and try to place my trust in the developers to realize when a class is too strong and take the appropriate action. However I am very frustrated at the strength they have given TR's this mod in combination with all the other utility the class already has. They have stealth so they can't be found, if you do happen to find them they can use impossible to catch from stealth and be immune to damage or just save it until you finally control them and then they just skip away merrily to go back into stealth or deflect your stuns with high deflect chance, they have CC in the form of stuns that last as long or longer than any other class has available, they have high dps feats and skills in combination with 100% crit from stealth, and they have dailies that ignore all DR and tenacity. I honestly don't know what the philosophy behind this was but it is, unquestionably, the most unbalanced class in the game at the moment and, imho, that has ever existed in the game.
By not at least removing the 100% crit from stealth this class is broken enough to make PVP unplayable for all other classes as you must dedicate multiple players to a node in order to defeat the TR and whoever you send will take multiple deaths while trying.
Devs, please hear me, you must fix the TR or PVP is simply a game of who has the most TR's on their team. I have always thought you would work in this direction, and I see you have attempted to fix their imbalance, however it's simply not enough/not the right fix. I would implore you again, take away 100% crit from stealth. I now would also add to this that SE should at least respect tenacity if not full DR. It is too much. Please make this game fun again.
Thanks for your time.
That's definitely questionable, depending on what 2 classes we're talking about. They can still win just about every 1v1 though.
SE certainly needs to respect tenacity/DR, and then I think TR would be fine.
You can do it without a DC, for sure.
you said it yourself
you have a tr T. Baggins - Saboteur TR
when you cant counter tr against tr
its only a skill problem isnt it .
this kinda sucks coz u realy want to play gwf and kill tr
and that is not happening any time soon
Certain TRs here need to open their eyes and realize that things are not okay. Don't think gloaming cut can hit for 9k+? Type in http://www.twitch.tv/crollax/profile don't think Shocking Execution can hit for over 30k? Type in http://www.twitch.tv/crollax/profile..
Think this guy doesn't know how to play his class? Type in http://www.twitch.tv/tolkienbuff1/profile Think this guy has no experience with a TR? Type in http://www.twitch.tv/tolkienbuff1/profile
Not saying it is balanced for sure. Just that it seems more fair at first sight. At least in pugs i see normal k/d ratios. Seen a 7/3 on 14k TR where before i'd see a 19/0.
Also a 19/1 but it was an un air match and even my instigator was 16/0 in that game. Just saying TRs seem to be still able to be assassins, just less survivable.
But i'm not good enough to say if it's balanced for sure or share insight about bis level experience.
Yesterday, on a side note, i stumbled against a exodus premade. Match was a failure with 11k and 9k for my team. But got a chance to vs a 24k pathfinder with my 17k nab gwf and could put up a fight. Surprisingly. Even forced him to retreat in stealth feat times. He was stealthing a lot (ap cloack and DC arti i guess), and i lost as it should be, but it was a fair fight. Have to say he was using black glyphs like me and not the imho broken reds.
Just to say stealth can still be useful and effective even when you are not 90% of the time invisibile, just not as unfair as it was before patch. TRs are obviously not HRs, but it's to say how different it is when you can actually fight back.
Now i see some similarities with HRs who are weak to CWs. If some balance is needed there then for sure it must be done. Red glyphs must have icd and cws can use some more survivability i guess. TRs might need some more tankiness?
Can't say for sure but imho less permastealth is a good starting point to find real balance. Devs can buff other sources of survivability perhaps.
False forward to 2:34 because i bullcharge him, then i use frontline surge then terrifying impact while he was proned and he deflected the terrifying impact. But if you watch the whole video you will see he deflect a lot while he was proned.
i seen plenty high end players write nerf threads in which they go all out
same like this one
not a single serious pvp player can agree with this post
nerf dailys -one in 3 crits by his own words which is still not enough and daily nerf coz one may get lucky and crit daily gc and daze and kill a gwf
35% crit-gc crit 4-5k on tank so non crit 1-2k tops,daze one out of 5 crit if lucky and not deflected
stealth reveal-after more then 70% dmg nerfs tr needs 5x time more for a kill and enemy has 10 x more chance to kill revealed tr
so basicaly hes proposing that tr can stalemate no kill and 1v2 die in a blink
nice balance
i am not to sure where people got the idea that you cannot deflect while proned. If this was through i think gfs would be the strongest class in the game. I have witness other times when my attacks were deflected by a proned target but i don't have any videos of those.
You have to realise that most people's personal experience does not align with most of these posts. For whatever reason.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Gonna start paying some more attention to my combat log and see if that holds in PvE at least.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Yes you can, you put a TR against the TR and may the best TR win, or you may get lucky enough to fight the TR when he doesn't have his daily up for that brief interval he is vulnerable. This doesn't negate my point. Given a 1v1 situation with no outside aid there is no class save another TR that can consistently kill a TR. If you have proof otherwise, I'll be glad to take a look at it.
Thanks for your reply.
PS. I think I may have caught what I think you are insinuating. If we put a CW and GWF on the TR then we can win or if we put a DPS DC and another class on the TR we can win. However this is actually only proving my point further. If you don't put two people on the TR, end game, one of them tanky (in the GWF/CW case the CW is actually tankier with shield) then whoever tries to clear a TR 1v1 will die save perhaps another TR. This is my point. If you send any classes with HP in the 44k or less range against a TR then you risk losing at least one of them and perhaps both of them if the TR is skilled.
The mod 4 meta was to stall the node with a perma stealth TR. They weren't going to kill anyone and they were killer hard to remove if they were good. This was fair. In a 2v1 scenario the TR should only hope to stay alive as long as he can. Then they buffed the TR and now in mod 5 the same perma has the possibility to actually clear both of his attackers depending on skill and timing.
IMHO you should have one ability or the other but not both. However most of the TR's ridiculous clearing ability comes from 100% crit SE that ignores all DR and tenacity. Thus I am trying to fix that issue by bringing it to the attention of the Devs here.
You can put a TR against a TR and the best TR will win. So all you are proving here is my point. The team with the most TR's wins. Thanks for continuing to show the imbalance with your posts f2pma, I appreciate you aiding my cause.
Thanks for your reply.
Being able to kill a class using any other class, if you're skilled enough, is called balance.
But i really start to believe many TRs just want their easy mode stealth to pew pew kill stuff and stay out of reach while thinking they are skilled.
You made me remember this TR posting ages ago when Iron Vanguard was first introduced for GWF. And he stated he could easily kite any GWF forever and kill them before IV, and now with threat rush he was finding it difficult to kite.
So for this guy being able to kite another class forever was "balanced".
So for TRs like you it's a sin if some change makes them vulnerable against, let's say, CWs, but it's okay to state that "it sucks coz you realy want to play gwf and kill tr and that is not happening any time soon".
I hope you're talking about a rock/ paper/ scissors scenario where specific classes are a counter for other classes,
And even in that case, it's not the right way for NW since group composition is random and you can easily end up with no counter for another class in the enemy team.
I understand why TR's post that their class is just fine, people love having an OP toon. It's fun killing indiscriminately, after a while of it you can even convince yourself that it's skill. People with OP classes start to believe their own propaganda after a while and think to themselves that the reason they have ridiculous K/D ratios is because they are really, really good.
The funny thing is I could replicate these K/D ratios circa mod 3 when roar was live and well. The thing is, I knew it was a class problem. The GWF was broken, it was too strong. I told fellow GWF's it was our death knell, and for most of mod 4 GWF's suffered as a result. What people don't realize is that a huge buff to your class is actually dangerous to your class overall. Here's the simple reason why. When you are OP in a class the other classes will begin to complain en masse about these features/skilsl/encounters. When they finally get heard by the devs, rather than the devs simply fixing the one or two broken issues that exist they come in with a nerf hammer. The end result is worse than if people who play the class would simply come clean as to what is broken and why.
I don't want to see any class nerfed to death or buffed to ridiculousness. I don't mind that I can't 1v1 a TR (well it does make me grumble a bit) but the fact that even in a 2v1 scenario the TR has the potential to win is just broken. It just is. It's not a rock paper scissors game then it's a "ok we can only win against a rock with another rock or with paper AND scissors and paper is just going to die a lot" game. That is not good balance, it is not fun PVP. This is what I hope the Devs will fix.
Thanks for your reply.
Stealth change was a rly good thing and 2 seconds is the perfect timing. For the most part i am having rly balanced fights vs 17k TRs (i am 22kGS GWF) but ofc similar gs trs are still way too much.
And please look into HR ap building cause now they are like TRs regarding stealth...
It's not the class AP building rates that are the problem - the original poster of this topic has already said it's the artefact that give this ability. But of course its OP upon a TR for SE and not OP for other classes - again at least you are upon the right track if you want balance, having any daily up more frequently than I have my encounters up (again according to original poster) is imho OP
But that the point really - most people don't want balance
Example - I just bought a couple of new character slots to play classes I have not played before. One being a DC - reached level 14 and Q for the PVP quest. So PVP at level 10 to 19 - the lowest of the lows, playing with 3 completely new players to the game upon my team - against you guessed it a premade team with perfect weapon enchants and what haves you. Result after some explanations as to what was go on and why they were getting slaughtered - three new players who have been put off of playing the PVP parts of the games completely.
So no - people so not want balance
Like this topic - pick three things you think are over powered about TR's and then use that as a reason to call for a complete reduction in all damages by any encounters or at will that that class has - very fair logic, I don't think
While most of your post is off topic, I do agree that griefing lowbies is allowed because of equipment that allows you to slot weapon enchantments at low levels. Also anyone who has a BIS toon can transfer said rank 10's to their alts. Twinking is a phenomenon that has a long and storied tradition in MMO's and while I agree it should not be allowed it really doesn't pertain to the fact that TR's have abilities that do too much dps related to guaranteed crit chance and feats as well as dailies that ignore DR/tenacity.
Now this is exacerbated by the fact that they can use dailies almost continuously via the cleric artifact, black ice cloak, strong AP gain of the class, Lathander's dew but the fact would exist even if all artificial AP gain was done away with that the DPS for the class is too strong considering all the other utility they get. The simple fix is to get rid of 100% crit chance from stealth. TR's would continue to get combat advantage and their feat damage but it means they only have a chance to one shot someone with their daily and that they have a chance to take away 3/4ths of someones life with LB. The other thing is that SE should not ignore all DR and tenacity, nothing should, ever.
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mod 2/3 GWF could have been balanced with few small tweaks(TR, roar etc), especially with how much piercing damage is around now, instead they destroyed the class, just like they did with TR before, history repeats itself, hopefully its our mod1 again for gwfs and well get buffed in mod6
artifact is a problem, but even if you get less SE still daily 1shotting about ANY class is NOT ok
even without 100% crit it would still be a problem, SE should never be able to 1shot PVP geared BiS(or close to that) player, NEVER
i think the main problem in pvp is that there is too much damage, if ppl had like 2x health(and heals/regen and some defensive abilities reduced accordingly) it would be much better
Learn to adapt. Mod5 TR revamp was a big step, whether its a right choice or in wrong direction, devs have made their decisions, then we spent 3 weeks+ on preview learning the new machanics and combos before it hits live. 2 weeks into the mod dmg received a nerf, then we failed our petition at that bull**** 2 second reveal compaign. It's already hard for us to play but now 100% crit chance whines and not enough reveal, seriously dude? whats next? too much dodge roll? too much ITC? too much movement speed? too much dots? theres never enough for a gwf till you wanna see this class hammer back to mod4 or even worse, is it? if you are a power build, aiming to one shot ppl with 30k from a feat, you are supposed to be squishier, want to take a hit? then tweek around your defensive stats balance your toon.
I already stated my feedback the main problem with new TR meta was not because of perma stealth, but 100% crit in stealth + piercing, cos we cld perma in previous mods but never wasnt a big threat cos 0 dmg, makes sense? however devs went ahead implemented what they wanted anyways, and now you want this to be removed as well? Im happy to go back to mod4 dmg but you gotta give the old machanics back. I have tried my best to suggest and defend the class in sicarius' posts but now changes are made, im willing to relearn and adapt, so should you.
One of the best posts that i found from you:
Well said and you should revisit this and try think about how it feels if this is done to your class this time, and how much of the finger we received by spending money and effort to build around certain aspect of the class. i see this post is nothing but a more tr whine thread. enough is enough, the chain of nerfing isnt a way to balance things, buff other classes and sometimes you have to stand on another angle to see the whole picture.
I would let the devs make their decisions by professional game testing and accept whatever they would do to any class cos i will learn to adapt, because it will be balanced and everything has a counter. but from what i see on nw stream they have little idea about their own game and forum qqs somehow do have a huge impact on their desicions.
how would it be if gwf would get the prones bk ? ....
I do, the best way to adapt to these changes is to PVP with multiple TR's. That's balanced PVP eh? When adaptation becomes running troll comps to defeat TR's then you must revisit the TR and see why this is the case.
I never advocated for the reveal from stealth, I would be fine with no reveal as the 2 seconds TR's are revealed the stunned class who just got hit by a shadowstrike/dazing strike now gets to watch as the TR launches into the air to take the other 90% of their life. It's beautiful right before you are sent back to spawn.
I assume you are talking about my GWF here, in which case I will comically pull you back to reality, read me the tooltip for SE please? Oh wait, allow me: "Leap up and strike with a vicious attack that ignores your targets defense. If you hit a target who is below 20% Hit Points your AP is refilled. This effect can only trigger once before Shocking Execution will consume AP." I'm sorry, you were saying?
Oh and if you happen to get your target to low health with your 100% crit uptime then you can finish him with SE and reuse it on the next target without even using DC artifact.
I'm happy we agree here. Thanks for reiterating what I've already stated.
As for my previous posts, I had to respend zen and AD after the changes to the GWF (btw to put this in perspective this particular post was prior to mod 3. I was advocating they not implement the changes to the GWF making the OP destroyer of mod 3, just a lil backstory). I then also had to do it all over again for mod 4 when we payed dearly for the changes they made to "balance" the mod 3 destroyer. So I guess I would have to say that it may be you who has to adapt this time in order to balance the game. I'm sorry.
Nerfing isn't the way to balance things, changing broken features so that they work appropriately is. How do you buff other classes so that they can deal with damage that can't be mitigated? You can't, therefore you must go back to the drawing board and look at piercing damage/damage that ignores DR. Look at exactly why it was that you allow a class to crit 100% of the time when every other class has to actually try and build into crit as a spec? It's not nerfing, it's balancing.
It's not up to me to "let" the devs make decisions, it's what they do. It is however up to me as a user of their content and a customer to share with the dev team what my findings in the game are. It is then of course their prerogative to address it or not. I have no delusions of grandeur here, I'm just trying to offer constructive feedback to better the game and PVP in general. As for learning to adapt, it's interesting that TR's tend to use this line on every other class, but if there are potential changes to their own class then I don't hear any of them saying, it's ok we will adapt to any changes they throw at us, hmm interesting.
Thanks for your reply
1. Executions will be the damage dealers who use encounters to hit really really hard and ofc they will be sacrificing utility skills and stealth if they want to hit really hard.
2. Sab should not be hitting 14k with at-wills. Said should have the option of perma stealth but not both. They should(imho) like dps and then compensate for that in high stealth capabilities.
3. Scoundrel have really good cc's. Arguable to good. But they have the ability to tank more effectively outside of stealth and still have good damage. The ccs are the only real thing that make them overpowered. They should have ccs but should be resistable and/or reduced duration and/or longer icd. After all they proc ccs.
this game was never balanced on that
no idea why so called balance always starts and ends with tr
u realy are desperate lol by now i bet u thinking i never should have made this post
but anyway
since you admited that u cant counter tr vs tr
it doesnt prove tr is broken
just that you play bad
me on the other hand love to see trs in enemy team and its most fun matches for me
only thing i hated was bb perma daily and that was fixed
You just negated your statement considering HR's have two at wills that can hit for about the same damage. Aimed Strike and Aimed Shot. (Aimed strike can do literally the same, just over time.)
And I've NEVER bit crit for no where near as much by a gloaming cut. Cause I know when a TR is going to do it, and learn pretty quickly which TR's rely on it during a match.
I dont disagree entirely with 2. But I feel sab's damage is fine, its the shadowy opportunity people were abusing with certain skills being the problem.
Itc I am very mixed about right now. Its a gift and a curse essentially. With itc, its very difficult to deal with perma stealth rogues, but at the same time its needed simply because of CW's, soon as they catch anything for just a moment its dead due to thier abilities hitting so hard and disabling people into becoming essentially a pinata.
Aimed strike does like half of aimed shot. just sayinh
Aimed shot? sitting duck much? not to mention the time you waste when interrupted. Might work for some, but it's kinda like a cheap shot. It cannot compare to how dynamic a TR is.
This is utter nonsense, I'm playing against TR's with 800 protection and 5k attack
I hope it gets better at level 60.
Someone should really make a capture of 2 TR's fighting lol
regards PapaBigN