How about giving the other capstone powers a boost too?
Maybe with the same mechanic as Reckless Attacker to help them out a bit?
Protector's capstone's damage debuff increased to 15% or 20% and with every hit a Guardian receives he gets more Damage Resistance up to 10%?
Tactician's capstone's bonus for Action Point gain does not get weakened by deflected damage anymore and with every hit a Guardian receives he gets more Deflection chance up to 10%?
Hey guys, I wanted to step in and talk about Reckless Attacker and some of the logic behind the change.
First, for those who believe they are getting nerfed. There is actually a power breakpoint where you *would* in theory see a nerf from this change, however it is very high. Reckless Attacker while fully stacked (which in regular content/combat should be fairly straight forward as stacking does not at this time have an ICD) grants 25% base damage and 10% crit (which for someone with no severity increases equates to 7.5% increased damage over the lifetime of of the character). This means a 32.5% damage bonus just from being struck. This means that if your build has more than 5395 Power you will see a slight decrease in damage, however you also gain the ability to use your shield more flexibly and freely without risking dropping below that value. This also frees up many of those stat points to be placed in other locations where you aren't at the DR caps yet. Overall this is a strong buff to the vast majority of GF players, and to those who had the stats and skills where this might be a nerf you will instead see a drastic increase in your combat flexibility and options for any given moment because you no longer have to worry that incoming damage should or shouldn't be blocked.
Secondly, the stacking mechanic. While I am not diametrically opposed to 3 stacks at 10% and 4% that is a far more substantive buff (39% damage buff rather than 32.5%. This equates to 6474 Power) and we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class. While he has options for increasing his damage and being far more disruptive, his primary role in a party should still be controlling mobs with aggro and enabling allies to get into a strong position. The Conqueror tree was (and still is) intended to let players who wish to rely more on their allies healing abilities and their own skills to survive these onslaughts so they can contribute more damage to the team. It could be roughly equated to a Risk/Reward tree, which is where the original Reckless Attacker came from. Conqueror is also intended to provide a strong and viable solo play option for players who prefer to play that way as well.
Finally, as to the other two capstone feats. We will be making some buffs to those as well to better reinforce the roles of the particular trees they are members of.
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Hopefully that clears up some of the thought process on these changes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
EDIT: These two changes will not be in this week's preview push. It is much more likely that they will be in next week's push.
...we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class. While he has options for increasing his damage and being far more disruptive, his primary role in a party should still be controlling mobs with aggro and enabling allies to get into a strong position.
I'm perfectly fine with the role of the GF. But I don't understand that he lacks passive defensive powers and feats compared to GWFs, especially Sentinel GWFs. E.g. Sentinel GWFs can get up to 55% deflection. This is more than any GF will ever be able to have. How does that fit into the role of the GF?
Hey guys, I wanted to step in and talk about Reckless Attacker and some of the logic behind the change.
First, for those who believe they are getting nerfed. There is actually a power breakpoint where you *would* in theory see a nerf from this change, however it is very high. Reckless Attacker while fully stacked (which in regular content/combat should be fairly straight forward as stacking does not at this time have an ICD) grants 25% base damage and 10% crit (which for someone with no severity increases equates to 7.5% increased damage over the lifetime of of the character). This means a 32.5% damage bonus just from being struck. This means that if your build has more than 5395 Power you will see a slight decrease in damage, however you also gain the ability to use your shield more flexibly and freely without risking dropping below that value. This also frees up many of those stat points to be placed in other locations where you aren't at the DR caps yet. Overall this is a strong buff to the vast majority of GF players, and to those who had the stats and skills where this might be a nerf you will instead see a drastic increase in your combat flexibility and options for any given moment because you no longer have to worry that incoming damage should or shouldn't be blocked.
Secondly, the stacking mechanic. While I am not diametrically opposed to 3 stacks at 10% and 4% that is a far more substantive buff (39% damage buff rather than 32.5%. This equates to 6474 Power) and we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class. While he has options for increasing his damage and being far more disruptive, his primary role in a party should still be controlling mobs with aggro and enabling allies to get into a strong position. The Conqueror tree was (and still is) intended to let players who wish to rely more on their allies healing abilities and their own skills to survive these onslaughts so they can contribute more damage to the team. It could be roughly equated to a Risk/Reward tree, which is where the original Reckless Attacker came from. Conqueror is also intended to provide a strong and viable solo play option for players who prefer to play that way as well.
Finally, as to the other two capstone feats. We will be making some buffs to those as well to better reinforce the roles of the particular trees they are members of.
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Hopefully that clears up some of the thought process on these changes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
EDIT: These two changes will not be in this week's preview push. It is much more likely that they will be in next week's push.
Please, just do not forget to bolster a bit the capabilities of the capstones of the other trees for solo play also; my suggestions with your own would help the Guardians greatly as the so called soft caps for the diminishing returns of Deflection and Defence or even Regeneration and Life Steal could be almost achieved even with the old Power stacking. My suggestion aimed at helping the Guardians to weaken the diminishing returns at least of one of these defensive stats for their tree.
Overall, the difference of the defensive stats between a Great Weapon Fighter and a Guardian Fighter are still very evidently, at least without the Block of the Guardian.
And that is the point: the Block is not just a power which strengthens the survivability of a Guardian, it is a part of the defence it is not a plus to the defence, the Guardian is a worse tank without the Block than the Great Weapon Fighter. The GWF got all the survivability needed for tanking and a plus with his Sprint, the GF does not get all the survivability needed but balance this weakness with his Block, it is not a plus to the needed survivability it is just the needed patch for the worse survivability to give the Guardian enough survivability and this irritates the Guardians the most, I think (at least if they are partly interested in tanking).
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l3g10nna1reMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
edited July 2014
@ "Gentleman Crush"
Can we have an update to Iron warrior and Guarded Assault please?
Have been asking about these 2 skills/features for good 3 months,
Hey guys, I wanted to step in and talk about Reckless Attacker and some of the logic behind the change.
First, for those who believe they are getting nerfed. There is actually a power breakpoint where you *would* in theory see a nerf from this change, however it is very high. Reckless Attacker while fully stacked (which in regular content/combat should be fairly straight forward as stacking does not at this time have an ICD) grants 25% base damage and 10% crit (which for someone with no severity increases equates to 7.5% increased damage over the lifetime of of the character). This means a 32.5% damage bonus just from being struck. This means that if your build has more than 5395 Power you will see a slight decrease in damage, however you also gain the ability to use your shield more flexibly and freely without risking dropping below that value. This also frees up many of those stat points to be placed in other locations where you aren't at the DR caps yet. Overall this is a strong buff to the vast majority of GF players, and to those who had the stats and skills where this might be a nerf you will instead see a drastic increase in your combat flexibility and options for any given moment because you no longer have to worry that incoming damage should or shouldn't be blocked.
Secondly, the stacking mechanic. While I am not diametrically opposed to 3 stacks at 10% and 4% that is a far more substantive buff (39% damage buff rather than 32.5%. This equates to 6474 Power) and we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class. While he has options for increasing his damage and being far more disruptive, his primary role in a party should still be controlling mobs with aggro and enabling allies to get into a strong position. The Conqueror tree was (and still is) intended to let players who wish to rely more on their allies healing abilities and their own skills to survive these onslaughts so they can contribute more damage to the team. It could be roughly equated to a Risk/Reward tree, which is where the original Reckless Attacker came from. Conqueror is also intended to provide a strong and viable solo play option for players who prefer to play that way as well.
Finally, as to the other two capstone feats. We will be making some buffs to those as well to better reinforce the roles of the particular trees they are members of.
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Hopefully that clears up some of the thought process on these changes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
EDIT: These two changes will not be in this week's preview push. It is much more likely that they will be in next week's push.
very nice very nice thank you for coming in here and clearing that up now can you come in and explain why our block can be mitigated? no word on that yet
we also need a boost to guarded assault, and while the protector capstone buff is nice we severely need more deflect it should also increase deflect by 10% then at it's core would make it the ultimate tanking path and a very good step above our counterparts sentinel path.
also we need our guard not to be mitigated since we also are now taking the full 20% without DR's i was hopeing for a resonse to this crush enlighten us please we are all waiting on the word.
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Is this in addition to what the feat already does, or are we now just generating AP for our allies and not ourselves?
Is this in addition to what the feat already does, or are we now just generating AP for our allies and not ourselves?
You are counted as part of this. You generate the AP as well
As far as block goes, it is currently *bugged* and is not providing the full amount of resistance that it should. As far as it being mitigated I have no idea what you mean by that, so I can't really answer. If you are talking about more damage getting through block as your damage resistance is reduced (via Armor Pen or a debuff) then this is true, but was also true with the old block mechanic (it would take more damage because your Damage Resistance did matter). I will need some clarity on what effect is being referenced before I can provide any more information.
0
nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
While the revised block version still needs to make its way to Preview:
Under the old Guard system, powers that ignored damage resistance were completely blocked.
Would Guard under the new system mitigate such powers or let them through completely now?
Examples:
Shocking Execution
Whirlwind of Blades
Master of Combat (now revised to Piercing damage)
Black Ice Damage (note Black Ice cannot even be deflected at present and ignores Steel Defense, ITC, etc - the other above Powers actually have the same issue)
Furthermore, is there any chance that non-mitigatable damage could at least still be reflected to the attacker, rather than the entity or not at all?
This means:
Thorn Ward, Daunting Light etc are reflected to those entities rather than the player casting them
Shocking Execution, Master of Combat damage is not reflected by Guarded Assault or Supremacy of Steel
Feedback:Protector Protector capstone even with the intended changes still does not make the tree any more appealing. The problem with tanking/survivability is that block can be easily bypassed. Mobs get pushed behind the GF and players can easily get behind him. His survival will still be based off a mechanic that can easily be avoided. To make the spec a true "tank" spec he needs something that is reliable (like the GWF unstoppable, it works no matter where the attacker is at). Changing the capstone to something like "Shield Specialization: You can black attacks coming from any direction (360 degree). This feat also increases your deflect by 5%" would give GF something that would be a reliable way to stop damage.
The reckless attacker 5 stack 20% damage bonus, where is it applied? On post #666 I took screen shots of me with and without and the only bonus shows is the Boon giving me 3%?
Does the reckless attacker bonus damage just apply without actually raising stats? Does it act as another auto Mark on my targets? I only ask as I tried over and over letting things attack me watching my stats and nothing changed on me albeit my crit %.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The reckless attacker 5 stack 20% damage bonus, where is it applied? On post #666 I took screen shots of me with and without and the only bonus shows is the Boon giving me 3%?
Does the reckless attacker bonus damage just apply without actually raising stats? Does it act as another auto Mark on my targets? I only ask as I tried over and over letting things attack me watching my stats and nothing changed on me albeit my crit %.
It is currently bugged on preview, and a fix should be going out in the next build that fixes it (as has been noted previously)
This means that if your build has more than 5395 Power you will see a slight decrease in damage, however you also gain the ability to use your shield more flexibly and freely without risking dropping below that value.
I want to clarify for players who dont quite understand what this number means. 5395 means BASE power WITHOUT the current capstone on LIVE. So WITH your reckless attacker capstone your power in your character sheet would say "10,770". This number refers to the BASE power required which is then doubled to give you an equal damage bonus equal to the NEW RA capstone.
Secondly, the stacking mechanic. While I am not diametrically opposed to 3 stacks at 10% and 4% that is a far more substantive buff (39% damage buff rather than 32.5%. This equates to 6474 Power) and we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class.
Thanks for the feedback here Crush. I understand this is NOT a DPS class, however I think it may be underestimated how much weapon damage factors into our total damage, having a capstone giving us 39% DPS - while it seems high, when you put this in light of the difference in weapon damage, either our "tab (20% dmg) or HALF of this DPS boost, only levels the playing field in that area... GFs wont be running around in PVP getting 18k crits (like Destroyer GWFs) or even 15k+ Dailies (Ice Knife).
What if this would meet us somewhere in the middle. Some players are complaining about losing power, others want crit.
What about:
Reckless Attacker: Each time you strike an opponent, gain a stack of Reckless Attacker. Each stack grants 1500 power and 4% critical strike chance. Stacks 3 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
1500 power = roughly 8.8% damage * 3 = 26.4% dmg boost. 12% crit equals roughly 9% DPS boost meaning in total its just around 35% total damage boost.
I think making it proc off OUR hits, gives us control of the stacks. 10 seconds seems reasonable. If its 5 stacks it requires TOO many of our hits to proc this, where as if its 3 stacks it seems like we can build that momentum and keep it fairly easily.
This change would give GFs power (4500 power) so it would be inline with what many are already experiencing with power stacking builds - thus not changing their builds all that much. At the same time gives GFs slightly more critical - which is honestly the biggest weakness of the class. I think this would be a fair middle ground that would appease almost all the player base.
Finally, as to the other two capstone feats. We will be making some buffs to those as well to better reinforce the roles of the particular trees they are members of.
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Hopefully that clears up some of the thought process on these changes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
EDIT: These two changes will not be in this week's preview push. It is much more likely that they will be in next week's push.
Thanks for some love here. I think I can speak for everyone that we appreciate these changes! I still think Iron Guard The stacks should apply when the GF receives damage from an attacker.
I think the conq capstone should be based on attacking, gaining buffs, the defensive capstone should be based on defending and receiving damage.... Just my 2 cents
Reckless Attacker: Each time you strike an opponent, gain a stack of Reckless Attacker. Each stack grants 1500 power and 4% critical strike chance. Stacks 3 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
1500 power = roughly 8.8% damage * 3 = 26.4% dmg boost. 12% crit equals roughly 9% DPS boost meaning in total its just around 35% total damage boost.
Interesting, I like the ability to control my own dps rather then goad things into attacking me so I can wait for 5 stacks. This would be a nice change and it would be visible across the board.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
By your logic, you should take a serious look at HR, being able to tank much better than the suppoosed to be "tank", also take a look at TR, they can also tank better than a GF, GWF can also still tank way better and deal TOO MUCH DAMAGE, way more than a GF, the CW deals too much damage it is NOT supposed to be a dps class, yet it outdamages every other class.
Agreed, the HR is WAY too tanky. Primarily because of their dodge mechanic as well as some of their other buffs. Honestly Aspect of the Lone Wolf should be reversed. Instead of lowering your DR for each player near you, you should gain DR in proportion to the number of player near you. Thus you become more tanky the more players near you. I think in 1v1 situations this is causing the HR to be FAR too tanky and it seems counter-intuitive to me. In 1v1, they should gain very little DR boost, but surrounded by 5 opponants, this is their class feature that allows them to actually survive.
You changed the one and only paragon path that was worth taking, after more than a year and revamped it into oblivion. I had (before i deleted this game and my characters) 14000 POWER, 25% damage coming from damage taken does not cover the devastating loss in my burst aswell as dps. Nomore first strike, we have to take tons of damage before we can actually act ourselves... Do you guy(s) even test your stuff? or do you just listen to these newcomers babbling lots of irellevant stuff?
What do you think of my above proposition? 1500 power + 4% crit stacks 3 times.
If you have 14k power, this would put you back to 7k+4500 = 11,500 power. But gaining 12% Crit is another 9% DPS.
While its a DPS loss, for you to get 14k power you had to lose quite a bit of defensive stats PLUS the ability to use your shield. So this change you still lose about 15% DPS on power, but gain 9% back as crit.
So a total loss of 6% but you gained 12% MORE from mark now so roughly still a DPS boost. This also still allows you to use your shield, AND swap out for more defensive stats or heck even crit/recovery if you would like.
People are saying they shouldnt be catering to the "few pvpers" or the "minority" well... I dont know many GFs who power stack 14k power and if they do, I can guarantee they do not perform well in PVP. These changes (along with some of the others Crush has rolled out) I think will make it a better experience for GFs even in PVE as well.
The cap on ET getting bumped is a massive DPS boost, plus the ability to block increases survivability. That and also all marked targets grant teammates CA? That seems like a reason to bring a GF to me. Plus now that GWFs are not as tanky, CWs dont deal as much damage, it balanced the field MUCH more for the GF that can tank, to also deal decent damage.
I messaged you, but I will ask here, are you opposed to merging Villains Menace and Fighters Recovery? This would help the GF immensely as they would no longer have to choose freedom, or healing themselves...
I would tone it down some and limit the healing received by a capped % of course, remove the bonus damage on Villains and just use the immunity but this would be an amazing change!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
finally love for prot/tactician...whould you be so kind to tell how much the ap generated from martial mastery will be lets say in percentage ???? also is there any rework for weapon and armor enchantments that currenlty have massive cooldowns at hand ??? whould love to use a holy avenger but cooldown is too much
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
...we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class...
Well, guys, we are being told straight in the face that we are being shoehorned into a useless role in a broken meta. It is sad to see that the trinity logic still reigns in a game where players have done everything they can to get away from it.
0
zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited July 2014
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Hopefully that clears up some of the thought process on these changes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
I feel like both this Protector and Tactician buff is a lazy rework - they didn't even made it more appealing.
Our protector capstone can't even compare to the sentinel capstone
Feedback
Protector = increased your DR by 10% and provide 5% of your total DR to your allies
I haven't gotten onto preview yet, wanted to wait until que+fixed DR on block+duration+unbugged RA went live, so correct me if I am wrong here...
FEEDBACK:
Mark has gotten a big revamp. Better DR for GF, better agro, and grants CA. With Enforced threat hitting more targets, that means more marks too. However, there seems to be a loophole, since the guard now allows damage through. Before, you could enforced threat/rush and mark mobs. Then you could put up your shield, and the mark would last a bit, because they did not damage you. Also, since mark was not as good of agro, they may not even care and try and hit you, thus staying marked.
Now, they WILL agro you, and they will hit you thru your shield... so they will lose the mark. Like I said, i need to confirm, but now i see Enforced threat - > bam all marked - > bam all hit you, no more mark. Yes it will give ca/etc for an instant, and agro for an instant, but then it is gone.
Can this be changed to a timed duration on the mark from TR and EF? Or made so if they hit you through your shield they don't lose mark?
Now, they WILL agro you, and they will hit you thru your shield... so they will lose the mark. Like I said, i need to confirm, but now i see Enforced threat - > bam all marked - > bam all hit you, no more mark. Yes it will give ca/etc for an instant, and agro for an instant, but then it is gone.
Can this be changed to a timed duration on the mark from TR and EF? Or made so if they hit you through your shield they don't lose mark?[/COLOR]
I like this idea ALOT. Temp Mark = flat duration for mark. This could be a good fix for threat Rush as well and give even temp mark a little love in PVP.
I STRONGLY encourage temp mark (non-tab mark) to be a fixed duration, maybe 4-5 seconds seems fair? This actually helps GWFs too from IBS mark and Threat Rush mark being able to use mark in a weaker fashion.
I feel like both this Protector and Tactician buff is a lazy rework - they didn't even made it more appealing.
Our protector capstone can't even compare to the sentinel capstone
Feedback
Protector = increased your DR by 10% and provide 5% of your total DR to your allies
no our new protector capstone is just horrible it should be 20 plus 10% deflection hell even GWF get it from weapon master stacks why cant the actual tank class?
bug Armor specialization
this talent does not do anything at all when feated 3/3 and needs to be fixed or atleast it doesnt show in the character sheet.
This means that if your build has more than 5395 Power you will see a slight decrease in damage...
Ok, we have this much debated issue now not only from players but straight from the source. I have as well as someone else in this thread 14k power with my GF. It took me very long to get there, I don't think my GF is overpowerered, and I don't see why I should get punished now.
...however you also gain the ability to use your shield more flexibly and freely without risking dropping below that value.
The old Reckless Attacker is more fun, because it made the player carefully ponder when to block. It is also better, because the player has more control over it, since he can choose when to raise the shield. Also, in higher geared and skilled parties, the party takes less damage, and therefore as a GF you need to block less and thus bring more dps to the party which makes us more desireable for these kind of parties that very rarely invite us. The proposed Reckless Attacker at the live server works the other way around - it makes us LESS deriable to get into parties that we have difficulties to get into.
Mr. Gentlemancrush, the GF class is one of the least played classes, and with module 4 it is supposed to become better. One should assume therefore, that this thread should have a moderate amount of feedback with a relaxed atmosphere. And yet, DESPITE these facts, this official feedback thread has already 79 pages of tension filled discussions - or better described: conflicts. We see players vividly opposing these fundamental changes to our class, and we see even posts of players announcing here that they will quit if these changes go live!
These are STRONG indications that what is at the preview server is the wrong direction. Please keep the old Reckless Attacker feat (with maybe a +x% crit) and completely scrap the idea of the stamina-guard. Don't twist our GFs, don't change the core of what makes a GF a GF! We are not in the open beta anymore, we are live since over a year.
...
These are STRONG indications that what is at the preview server is the wrong direction. Please keep the old Reckless Attacker feat (with maybe a +x% crit) and completely scrap the idea of the stamina-guard. Don't twist our GFs, don't change the core of what makes a GF a GF! We are not in the open beta anymore, we are live since over a year.
As well as possibly an indication of fear of innovation and an indication of stubbornness which prevents those players from adapting to the new mechanics but lets them proclaim the downfall of a class which is still able to do everything I was able to do before the changes and despite of players who tested the new mechanics stating that the new ones work as well as the old ones.
The new reckless attacker is good, the 10% crit chance a lone is great and the dmg will either increase on some people or be a bit lower but the extra crit makes up for that and at least we do have the option to hold our shield up now instead of only for a second. In pvp we will be so much better, being able to close the gap better with our shield and the timer is decent and so is the recharge, i have tested it many times and its working better for me, i can kite gwf so well and they cant rip into me like before and break my shield in 3 hits.
As well as possibly an indication of fear of innovation and an indication of stubbornness which prevents those players from adapting to the new mechanics but lets them proclaim the downfall of a class which is still able to do everything I was able to do before the changes and despite of players who tested the new mechanics stating that the new ones work as well as the old ones.
For the sake of the argument, let's assume that the explanation for the negative feedback you offered is true (which I think is not). In that case the players opposed to the stamina-guard and its fallout will leave because of the reason you gave, and not because of the reasons I gave. In both cases they leave. Good luck justifying that to the people at perfect world who oversee the finances.
And in general, I think it is always questionable to say: "Hey the plan we have is great. If the humans don't like it, it is the humans that have to change, not the plan". Especially in the area of entertainment I find that to be questionable.
Comments
Maybe with the same mechanic as Reckless Attacker to help them out a bit?
Protector's capstone's damage debuff increased to 15% or 20% and with every hit a Guardian receives he gets more Damage Resistance up to 10%?
Tactician's capstone's bonus for Action Point gain does not get weakened by deflected damage anymore and with every hit a Guardian receives he gets more Deflection chance up to 10%?
First, for those who believe they are getting nerfed. There is actually a power breakpoint where you *would* in theory see a nerf from this change, however it is very high. Reckless Attacker while fully stacked (which in regular content/combat should be fairly straight forward as stacking does not at this time have an ICD) grants 25% base damage and 10% crit (which for someone with no severity increases equates to 7.5% increased damage over the lifetime of of the character). This means a 32.5% damage bonus just from being struck. This means that if your build has more than 5395 Power you will see a slight decrease in damage, however you also gain the ability to use your shield more flexibly and freely without risking dropping below that value. This also frees up many of those stat points to be placed in other locations where you aren't at the DR caps yet. Overall this is a strong buff to the vast majority of GF players, and to those who had the stats and skills where this might be a nerf you will instead see a drastic increase in your combat flexibility and options for any given moment because you no longer have to worry that incoming damage should or shouldn't be blocked.
Secondly, the stacking mechanic. While I am not diametrically opposed to 3 stacks at 10% and 4% that is a far more substantive buff (39% damage buff rather than 32.5%. This equates to 6474 Power) and we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class. While he has options for increasing his damage and being far more disruptive, his primary role in a party should still be controlling mobs with aggro and enabling allies to get into a strong position. The Conqueror tree was (and still is) intended to let players who wish to rely more on their allies healing abilities and their own skills to survive these onslaughts so they can contribute more damage to the team. It could be roughly equated to a Risk/Reward tree, which is where the original Reckless Attacker came from. Conqueror is also intended to provide a strong and viable solo play option for players who prefer to play that way as well.
Finally, as to the other two capstone feats. We will be making some buffs to those as well to better reinforce the roles of the particular trees they are members of.
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Hopefully that clears up some of the thought process on these changes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
EDIT: These two changes will not be in this week's preview push. It is much more likely that they will be in next week's push.
I'm perfectly fine with the role of the GF. But I don't understand that he lacks passive defensive powers and feats compared to GWFs, especially Sentinel GWFs. E.g. Sentinel GWFs can get up to 55% deflection. This is more than any GF will ever be able to have. How does that fit into the role of the GF?
Please, just do not forget to bolster a bit the capabilities of the capstones of the other trees for solo play also; my suggestions with your own would help the Guardians greatly as the so called soft caps for the diminishing returns of Deflection and Defence or even Regeneration and Life Steal could be almost achieved even with the old Power stacking. My suggestion aimed at helping the Guardians to weaken the diminishing returns at least of one of these defensive stats for their tree.
Overall, the difference of the defensive stats between a Great Weapon Fighter and a Guardian Fighter are still very evidently, at least without the Block of the Guardian.
And that is the point: the Block is not just a power which strengthens the survivability of a Guardian, it is a part of the defence it is not a plus to the defence, the Guardian is a worse tank without the Block than the Great Weapon Fighter. The GWF got all the survivability needed for tanking and a plus with his Sprint, the GF does not get all the survivability needed but balance this weakness with his Block, it is not a plus to the needed survivability it is just the needed patch for the worse survivability to give the Guardian enough survivability and this irritates the Guardians the most, I think (at least if they are partly interested in tanking).
Can we have an update to Iron warrior and Guarded Assault please?
Have been asking about these 2 skills/features for good 3 months,
very nice very nice thank you for coming in here and clearing that up now can you come in and explain why our block can be mitigated? no word on that yet
we also need a boost to guarded assault, and while the protector capstone buff is nice we severely need more deflect it should also increase deflect by 10% then at it's core would make it the ultimate tanking path and a very good step above our counterparts sentinel path.
also we need our guard not to be mitigated since we also are now taking the full 20% without DR's i was hopeing for a resonse to this crush enlighten us please we are all waiting on the word.
Is this in addition to what the feat already does, or are we now just generating AP for our allies and not ourselves?
You are counted as part of this. You generate the AP as well
As far as block goes, it is currently *bugged* and is not providing the full amount of resistance that it should. As far as it being mitigated I have no idea what you mean by that, so I can't really answer. If you are talking about more damage getting through block as your damage resistance is reduced (via Armor Pen or a debuff) then this is true, but was also true with the old block mechanic (it would take more damage because your Damage Resistance did matter). I will need some clarity on what effect is being referenced before I can provide any more information.
Under the old Guard system, powers that ignored damage resistance were completely blocked.
Would Guard under the new system mitigate such powers or let them through completely now?
Examples:
Shocking Execution
Whirlwind of Blades
Master of Combat (now revised to Piercing damage)
Black Ice Damage (note Black Ice cannot even be deflected at present and ignores Steel Defense, ITC, etc - the other above Powers actually have the same issue)
Furthermore, is there any chance that non-mitigatable damage could at least still be reflected to the attacker, rather than the entity or not at all?
This means:
Thorn Ward, Daunting Light etc are reflected to those entities rather than the player casting them
Shocking Execution, Master of Combat damage is not reflected by Guarded Assault or Supremacy of Steel
Protector capstone even with the intended changes still does not make the tree any more appealing. The problem with tanking/survivability is that block can be easily bypassed. Mobs get pushed behind the GF and players can easily get behind him. His survival will still be based off a mechanic that can easily be avoided. To make the spec a true "tank" spec he needs something that is reliable (like the GWF unstoppable, it works no matter where the attacker is at). Changing the capstone to something like "Shield Specialization: You can black attacks coming from any direction (360 degree). This feat also increases your deflect by 5%" would give GF something that would be a reliable way to stop damage.
The reckless attacker 5 stack 20% damage bonus, where is it applied? On post #666 I took screen shots of me with and without and the only bonus shows is the Boon giving me 3%?
Does the reckless attacker bonus damage just apply without actually raising stats? Does it act as another auto Mark on my targets? I only ask as I tried over and over letting things attack me watching my stats and nothing changed on me albeit my crit %.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It is currently bugged on preview, and a fix should be going out in the next build that fixes it (as has been noted previously)
I must have missed that info, my bad. I will await the next push.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I want to clarify for players who dont quite understand what this number means. 5395 means BASE power WITHOUT the current capstone on LIVE. So WITH your reckless attacker capstone your power in your character sheet would say "10,770". This number refers to the BASE power required which is then doubled to give you an equal damage bonus equal to the NEW RA capstone.
Thanks for the feedback here Crush. I understand this is NOT a DPS class, however I think it may be underestimated how much weapon damage factors into our total damage, having a capstone giving us 39% DPS - while it seems high, when you put this in light of the difference in weapon damage, either our "tab (20% dmg) or HALF of this DPS boost, only levels the playing field in that area... GFs wont be running around in PVP getting 18k crits (like Destroyer GWFs) or even 15k+ Dailies (Ice Knife).
What if this would meet us somewhere in the middle. Some players are complaining about losing power, others want crit.
What about:
Reckless Attacker: Each time you strike an opponent, gain a stack of Reckless Attacker. Each stack grants 1500 power and 4% critical strike chance. Stacks 3 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
1500 power = roughly 8.8% damage * 3 = 26.4% dmg boost. 12% crit equals roughly 9% DPS boost meaning in total its just around 35% total damage boost.
I think making it proc off OUR hits, gives us control of the stacks. 10 seconds seems reasonable. If its 5 stacks it requires TOO many of our hits to proc this, where as if its 3 stacks it seems like we can build that momentum and keep it fairly easily.
This change would give GFs power (4500 power) so it would be inline with what many are already experiencing with power stacking builds - thus not changing their builds all that much. At the same time gives GFs slightly more critical - which is honestly the biggest weakness of the class. I think this would be a fair middle ground that would appease almost all the player base.
Thanks for some love here. I think I can speak for everyone that we appreciate these changes! I still think Iron Guard The stacks should apply when the GF receives damage from an attacker.
I think the conq capstone should be based on attacking, gaining buffs, the defensive capstone should be based on defending and receiving damage.... Just my 2 cents
Interesting, I like the ability to control my own dps rather then goad things into attacking me so I can wait for 5 stacks. This would be a nice change and it would be visible across the board.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Agreed, the HR is WAY too tanky. Primarily because of their dodge mechanic as well as some of their other buffs. Honestly Aspect of the Lone Wolf should be reversed. Instead of lowering your DR for each player near you, you should gain DR in proportion to the number of player near you. Thus you become more tanky the more players near you. I think in 1v1 situations this is causing the HR to be FAR too tanky and it seems counter-intuitive to me. In 1v1, they should gain very little DR boost, but surrounded by 5 opponants, this is their class feature that allows them to actually survive.
What do you think of my above proposition? 1500 power + 4% crit stacks 3 times.
If you have 14k power, this would put you back to 7k+4500 = 11,500 power. But gaining 12% Crit is another 9% DPS.
While its a DPS loss, for you to get 14k power you had to lose quite a bit of defensive stats PLUS the ability to use your shield. So this change you still lose about 15% DPS on power, but gain 9% back as crit.
So a total loss of 6% but you gained 12% MORE from mark now so roughly still a DPS boost. This also still allows you to use your shield, AND swap out for more defensive stats or heck even crit/recovery if you would like.
People are saying they shouldnt be catering to the "few pvpers" or the "minority" well... I dont know many GFs who power stack 14k power and if they do, I can guarantee they do not perform well in PVP. These changes (along with some of the others Crush has rolled out) I think will make it a better experience for GFs even in PVE as well.
The cap on ET getting bumped is a massive DPS boost, plus the ability to block increases survivability. That and also all marked targets grant teammates CA? That seems like a reason to bring a GF to me. Plus now that GWFs are not as tanky, CWs dont deal as much damage, it balanced the field MUCH more for the GF that can tank, to also deal decent damage.
I messaged you, but I will ask here, are you opposed to merging Villains Menace and Fighters Recovery? This would help the GF immensely as they would no longer have to choose freedom, or healing themselves...
I would tone it down some and limit the healing received by a capped % of course, remove the bonus damage on Villains and just use the immunity but this would be an amazing change!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I feel like both this Protector and Tactician buff is a lazy rework - they didn't even made it more appealing.
Our protector capstone can't even compare to the sentinel capstone
Feedback
Protector = increased your DR by 10% and provide 5% of your total DR to your allies
FEEDBACK:
Mark has gotten a big revamp. Better DR for GF, better agro, and grants CA. With Enforced threat hitting more targets, that means more marks too. However, there seems to be a loophole, since the guard now allows damage through. Before, you could enforced threat/rush and mark mobs. Then you could put up your shield, and the mark would last a bit, because they did not damage you. Also, since mark was not as good of agro, they may not even care and try and hit you, thus staying marked.
Now, they WILL agro you, and they will hit you thru your shield... so they will lose the mark. Like I said, i need to confirm, but now i see Enforced threat - > bam all marked - > bam all hit you, no more mark. Yes it will give ca/etc for an instant, and agro for an instant, but then it is gone.
Can this be changed to a timed duration on the mark from TR and EF? Or made so if they hit you through your shield they don't lose mark?
I like this idea ALOT. Temp Mark = flat duration for mark. This could be a good fix for threat Rush as well and give even temp mark a little love in PVP.
I STRONGLY encourage temp mark (non-tab mark) to be a fixed duration, maybe 4-5 seconds seems fair? This actually helps GWFs too from IBS mark and Threat Rush mark being able to use mark in a weaker fashion.
How about fixing plant the seedlings n read the thayan writings these can not be completed on preview. no completion no progress n no further testing
no our new protector capstone is just horrible it should be 20 plus 10% deflection hell even GWF get it from weapon master stacks why cant the actual tank class?
bug Armor specialization
this talent does not do anything at all when feated 3/3 and needs to be fixed or atleast it doesnt show in the character sheet.
Ok, we have this much debated issue now not only from players but straight from the source. I have as well as someone else in this thread 14k power with my GF. It took me very long to get there, I don't think my GF is overpowerered, and I don't see why I should get punished now.
The old Reckless Attacker is more fun, because it made the player carefully ponder when to block. It is also better, because the player has more control over it, since he can choose when to raise the shield. Also, in higher geared and skilled parties, the party takes less damage, and therefore as a GF you need to block less and thus bring more dps to the party which makes us more desireable for these kind of parties that very rarely invite us. The proposed Reckless Attacker at the live server works the other way around - it makes us LESS deriable to get into parties that we have difficulties to get into.
Mr. Gentlemancrush, the GF class is one of the least played classes, and with module 4 it is supposed to become better. One should assume therefore, that this thread should have a moderate amount of feedback with a relaxed atmosphere. And yet, DESPITE these facts, this official feedback thread has already 79 pages of tension filled discussions - or better described: conflicts. We see players vividly opposing these fundamental changes to our class, and we see even posts of players announcing here that they will quit if these changes go live!
These are STRONG indications that what is at the preview server is the wrong direction. Please keep the old Reckless Attacker feat (with maybe a +x% crit) and completely scrap the idea of the stamina-guard. Don't twist our GFs, don't change the core of what makes a GF a GF! We are not in the open beta anymore, we are live since over a year.
As well as possibly an indication of fear of innovation and an indication of stubbornness which prevents those players from adapting to the new mechanics but lets them proclaim the downfall of a class which is still able to do everything I was able to do before the changes and despite of players who tested the new mechanics stating that the new ones work as well as the old ones.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
For the sake of the argument, let's assume that the explanation for the negative feedback you offered is true (which I think is not). In that case the players opposed to the stamina-guard and its fallout will leave because of the reason you gave, and not because of the reasons I gave. In both cases they leave. Good luck justifying that to the people at perfect world who oversee the finances.
And in general, I think it is always questionable to say: "Hey the plan we have is great. If the humans don't like it, it is the humans that have to change, not the plan". Especially in the area of entertainment I find that to be questionable.