Feedback:Protector Protector capstone even with the intended changes still does not make the tree any more appealing. The problem with tanking/survivability is that block can be easily bypassed. Mobs get pushed behind the GF and players can easily get behind him. His survival will still be based off a mechanic that can easily be avoided. To make the spec a true "tank" spec he needs something that is reliable (like the GWF unstoppable, it works no matter where the attacker is at). Changing the capstone to something like "Shield Specialization: You can black attacks coming from any direction (360 degree). This feat also increases your deflect by 5%" would give GF something that would be a reliable way to stop damage.
The reckless attacker 5 stack 20% damage bonus, where is it applied? On post #666 I took screen shots of me with and without and the only bonus shows is the Boon giving me 3%?
Does the reckless attacker bonus damage just apply without actually raising stats? Does it act as another auto Mark on my targets? I only ask as I tried over and over letting things attack me watching my stats and nothing changed on me albeit my crit %.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The reckless attacker 5 stack 20% damage bonus, where is it applied? On post #666 I took screen shots of me with and without and the only bonus shows is the Boon giving me 3%?
Does the reckless attacker bonus damage just apply without actually raising stats? Does it act as another auto Mark on my targets? I only ask as I tried over and over letting things attack me watching my stats and nothing changed on me albeit my crit %.
It is currently bugged on preview, and a fix should be going out in the next build that fixes it (as has been noted previously)
This means that if your build has more than 5395 Power you will see a slight decrease in damage, however you also gain the ability to use your shield more flexibly and freely without risking dropping below that value.
I want to clarify for players who dont quite understand what this number means. 5395 means BASE power WITHOUT the current capstone on LIVE. So WITH your reckless attacker capstone your power in your character sheet would say "10,770". This number refers to the BASE power required which is then doubled to give you an equal damage bonus equal to the NEW RA capstone.
Secondly, the stacking mechanic. While I am not diametrically opposed to 3 stacks at 10% and 4% that is a far more substantive buff (39% damage buff rather than 32.5%. This equates to 6474 Power) and we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class.
Thanks for the feedback here Crush. I understand this is NOT a DPS class, however I think it may be underestimated how much weapon damage factors into our total damage, having a capstone giving us 39% DPS - while it seems high, when you put this in light of the difference in weapon damage, either our "tab (20% dmg) or HALF of this DPS boost, only levels the playing field in that area... GFs wont be running around in PVP getting 18k crits (like Destroyer GWFs) or even 15k+ Dailies (Ice Knife).
What if this would meet us somewhere in the middle. Some players are complaining about losing power, others want crit.
What about:
Reckless Attacker: Each time you strike an opponent, gain a stack of Reckless Attacker. Each stack grants 1500 power and 4% critical strike chance. Stacks 3 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
1500 power = roughly 8.8% damage * 3 = 26.4% dmg boost. 12% crit equals roughly 9% DPS boost meaning in total its just around 35% total damage boost.
I think making it proc off OUR hits, gives us control of the stacks. 10 seconds seems reasonable. If its 5 stacks it requires TOO many of our hits to proc this, where as if its 3 stacks it seems like we can build that momentum and keep it fairly easily.
This change would give GFs power (4500 power) so it would be inline with what many are already experiencing with power stacking builds - thus not changing their builds all that much. At the same time gives GFs slightly more critical - which is honestly the biggest weakness of the class. I think this would be a fair middle ground that would appease almost all the player base.
Finally, as to the other two capstone feats. We will be making some buffs to those as well to better reinforce the roles of the particular trees they are members of.
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Hopefully that clears up some of the thought process on these changes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
EDIT: These two changes will not be in this week's preview push. It is much more likely that they will be in next week's push.
Thanks for some love here. I think I can speak for everyone that we appreciate these changes! I still think Iron Guard The stacks should apply when the GF receives damage from an attacker.
I think the conq capstone should be based on attacking, gaining buffs, the defensive capstone should be based on defending and receiving damage.... Just my 2 cents
Reckless Attacker: Each time you strike an opponent, gain a stack of Reckless Attacker. Each stack grants 1500 power and 4% critical strike chance. Stacks 3 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
1500 power = roughly 8.8% damage * 3 = 26.4% dmg boost. 12% crit equals roughly 9% DPS boost meaning in total its just around 35% total damage boost.
Interesting, I like the ability to control my own dps rather then goad things into attacking me so I can wait for 5 stacks. This would be a nice change and it would be visible across the board.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
By your logic, you should take a serious look at HR, being able to tank much better than the suppoosed to be "tank", also take a look at TR, they can also tank better than a GF, GWF can also still tank way better and deal TOO MUCH DAMAGE, way more than a GF, the CW deals too much damage it is NOT supposed to be a dps class, yet it outdamages every other class.
Agreed, the HR is WAY too tanky. Primarily because of their dodge mechanic as well as some of their other buffs. Honestly Aspect of the Lone Wolf should be reversed. Instead of lowering your DR for each player near you, you should gain DR in proportion to the number of player near you. Thus you become more tanky the more players near you. I think in 1v1 situations this is causing the HR to be FAR too tanky and it seems counter-intuitive to me. In 1v1, they should gain very little DR boost, but surrounded by 5 opponants, this is their class feature that allows them to actually survive.
You changed the one and only paragon path that was worth taking, after more than a year and revamped it into oblivion. I had (before i deleted this game and my characters) 14000 POWER, 25% damage coming from damage taken does not cover the devastating loss in my burst aswell as dps. Nomore first strike, we have to take tons of damage before we can actually act ourselves... Do you guy(s) even test your stuff? or do you just listen to these newcomers babbling lots of irellevant stuff?
What do you think of my above proposition? 1500 power + 4% crit stacks 3 times.
If you have 14k power, this would put you back to 7k+4500 = 11,500 power. But gaining 12% Crit is another 9% DPS.
While its a DPS loss, for you to get 14k power you had to lose quite a bit of defensive stats PLUS the ability to use your shield. So this change you still lose about 15% DPS on power, but gain 9% back as crit.
So a total loss of 6% but you gained 12% MORE from mark now so roughly still a DPS boost. This also still allows you to use your shield, AND swap out for more defensive stats or heck even crit/recovery if you would like.
People are saying they shouldnt be catering to the "few pvpers" or the "minority" well... I dont know many GFs who power stack 14k power and if they do, I can guarantee they do not perform well in PVP. These changes (along with some of the others Crush has rolled out) I think will make it a better experience for GFs even in PVE as well.
The cap on ET getting bumped is a massive DPS boost, plus the ability to block increases survivability. That and also all marked targets grant teammates CA? That seems like a reason to bring a GF to me. Plus now that GWFs are not as tanky, CWs dont deal as much damage, it balanced the field MUCH more for the GF that can tank, to also deal decent damage.
I messaged you, but I will ask here, are you opposed to merging Villains Menace and Fighters Recovery? This would help the GF immensely as they would no longer have to choose freedom, or healing themselves...
I would tone it down some and limit the healing received by a capped % of course, remove the bonus damage on Villains and just use the immunity but this would be an amazing change!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
finally love for prot/tactician...whould you be so kind to tell how much the ap generated from martial mastery will be lets say in percentage ???? also is there any rework for weapon and armor enchantments that currenlty have massive cooldowns at hand ??? whould love to use a holy avenger but cooldown is too much
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
...we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class...
Well, guys, we are being told straight in the face that we are being shoehorned into a useless role in a broken meta. It is sad to see that the trinity logic still reigns in a game where players have done everything they can to get away from it.
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited July 2014
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
Tactician: Martial Mastery: This feat now generates AP for allies within 50' any time you take damage. You no longer have to not be blocking for this effect to work.
Hopefully that clears up some of the thought process on these changes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
I feel like both this Protector and Tactician buff is a lazy rework - they didn't even made it more appealing.
Our protector capstone can't even compare to the sentinel capstone
Feedback
Protector = increased your DR by 10% and provide 5% of your total DR to your allies
I haven't gotten onto preview yet, wanted to wait until que+fixed DR on block+duration+unbugged RA went live, so correct me if I am wrong here...
FEEDBACK:
Mark has gotten a big revamp. Better DR for GF, better agro, and grants CA. With Enforced threat hitting more targets, that means more marks too. However, there seems to be a loophole, since the guard now allows damage through. Before, you could enforced threat/rush and mark mobs. Then you could put up your shield, and the mark would last a bit, because they did not damage you. Also, since mark was not as good of agro, they may not even care and try and hit you, thus staying marked.
Now, they WILL agro you, and they will hit you thru your shield... so they will lose the mark. Like I said, i need to confirm, but now i see Enforced threat - > bam all marked - > bam all hit you, no more mark. Yes it will give ca/etc for an instant, and agro for an instant, but then it is gone.
Can this be changed to a timed duration on the mark from TR and EF? Or made so if they hit you through your shield they don't lose mark?
Now, they WILL agro you, and they will hit you thru your shield... so they will lose the mark. Like I said, i need to confirm, but now i see Enforced threat - > bam all marked - > bam all hit you, no more mark. Yes it will give ca/etc for an instant, and agro for an instant, but then it is gone.
Can this be changed to a timed duration on the mark from TR and EF? Or made so if they hit you through your shield they don't lose mark?[/COLOR]
I like this idea ALOT. Temp Mark = flat duration for mark. This could be a good fix for threat Rush as well and give even temp mark a little love in PVP.
I STRONGLY encourage temp mark (non-tab mark) to be a fixed duration, maybe 4-5 seconds seems fair? This actually helps GWFs too from IBS mark and Threat Rush mark being able to use mark in a weaker fashion.
I feel like both this Protector and Tactician buff is a lazy rework - they didn't even made it more appealing.
Our protector capstone can't even compare to the sentinel capstone
Feedback
Protector = increased your DR by 10% and provide 5% of your total DR to your allies
no our new protector capstone is just horrible it should be 20 plus 10% deflection hell even GWF get it from weapon master stacks why cant the actual tank class?
bug Armor specialization
this talent does not do anything at all when feated 3/3 and needs to be fixed or atleast it doesnt show in the character sheet.
This means that if your build has more than 5395 Power you will see a slight decrease in damage...
Ok, we have this much debated issue now not only from players but straight from the source. I have as well as someone else in this thread 14k power with my GF. It took me very long to get there, I don't think my GF is overpowerered, and I don't see why I should get punished now.
...however you also gain the ability to use your shield more flexibly and freely without risking dropping below that value.
The old Reckless Attacker is more fun, because it made the player carefully ponder when to block. It is also better, because the player has more control over it, since he can choose when to raise the shield. Also, in higher geared and skilled parties, the party takes less damage, and therefore as a GF you need to block less and thus bring more dps to the party which makes us more desireable for these kind of parties that very rarely invite us. The proposed Reckless Attacker at the live server works the other way around - it makes us LESS deriable to get into parties that we have difficulties to get into.
Mr. Gentlemancrush, the GF class is one of the least played classes, and with module 4 it is supposed to become better. One should assume therefore, that this thread should have a moderate amount of feedback with a relaxed atmosphere. And yet, DESPITE these facts, this official feedback thread has already 79 pages of tension filled discussions - or better described: conflicts. We see players vividly opposing these fundamental changes to our class, and we see even posts of players announcing here that they will quit if these changes go live!
These are STRONG indications that what is at the preview server is the wrong direction. Please keep the old Reckless Attacker feat (with maybe a +x% crit) and completely scrap the idea of the stamina-guard. Don't twist our GFs, don't change the core of what makes a GF a GF! We are not in the open beta anymore, we are live since over a year.
...
These are STRONG indications that what is at the preview server is the wrong direction. Please keep the old Reckless Attacker feat (with maybe a +x% crit) and completely scrap the idea of the stamina-guard. Don't twist our GFs, don't change the core of what makes a GF a GF! We are not in the open beta anymore, we are live since over a year.
As well as possibly an indication of fear of innovation and an indication of stubbornness which prevents those players from adapting to the new mechanics but lets them proclaim the downfall of a class which is still able to do everything I was able to do before the changes and despite of players who tested the new mechanics stating that the new ones work as well as the old ones.
The new reckless attacker is good, the 10% crit chance a lone is great and the dmg will either increase on some people or be a bit lower but the extra crit makes up for that and at least we do have the option to hold our shield up now instead of only for a second. In pvp we will be so much better, being able to close the gap better with our shield and the timer is decent and so is the recharge, i have tested it many times and its working better for me, i can kite gwf so well and they cant rip into me like before and break my shield in 3 hits.
As well as possibly an indication of fear of innovation and an indication of stubbornness which prevents those players from adapting to the new mechanics but lets them proclaim the downfall of a class which is still able to do everything I was able to do before the changes and despite of players who tested the new mechanics stating that the new ones work as well as the old ones.
For the sake of the argument, let's assume that the explanation for the negative feedback you offered is true (which I think is not). In that case the players opposed to the stamina-guard and its fallout will leave because of the reason you gave, and not because of the reasons I gave. In both cases they leave. Good luck justifying that to the people at perfect world who oversee the finances.
And in general, I think it is always questionable to say: "Hey the plan we have is great. If the humans don't like it, it is the humans that have to change, not the plan". Especially in the area of entertainment I find that to be questionable.
You are counted as part of this. You generate the AP as well
As far as block goes, it is currently *bugged* and is not providing the full amount of resistance that it should. As far as it being mitigated I have no idea what you mean by that, so I can't really answer. If you are talking about more damage getting through block as your damage resistance is reduced (via Armor Pen or a debuff) then this is true, but was also true with the old block mechanic (it would take more damage because your Damage Resistance did matter). I will need some clarity on what effect is being referenced before I can provide any more information.
I meant that I was in a thornward against an HR. My block was still "up" and I was taking full damage from the HR with GPF. So the old block would absorb all damage, so despite mitigation a BIG hit could still be blocked... But as it is now, if we are fighting an HR with a TON of DR mitigation via one of their six encounters, we drop in about 10-15 seconds....
So I love all the changes, I really do. But the guard bugs out against an hr in thornward, and it will flash totally red when we have been mitigated to a certain point.
Example
I was on Raidcall fighting an HR on test server. He was saying he saw that I was at zero stamina/guardmeter when on my screen i still had 50% less. With no thornward I was block a LOT of damage. WITH thornward, compared to me blocking or not blocking. I literally took near the exact same amount of damage since HR's can easily double thornward and in some cases triple thornward now. (I'm sure that will be fixed I hope)... So I really do like all these changes, I'm just leery about being able to be mitigated to where my block is literally soaking like 20% damage... For instance GPF + Terror + GF Mark + Thornward..... I don't know exactly which of those reduces my DR from the shield per say, but thornward and GPF 100% made me take near full damage while my shield was up..
That is what I meant by the mitigation. It can literally render our shield, useless.
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theevildrfMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
the incomplete block was tried in beta weekend 2. why was it thrown out then? why is it back now?
Ok, we have this much debated issue now not only from players but straight from the source. I have as well as someone else in this thread 14k power with my GF. It took me very long to get there, I don't think my GF is overpowerered, and I don't see why I should get punished now.
There really has never been any debate around this, there is a handful of players who offered the rough math, who have been saying its going to be roughly the same or better for a LARGE majority of the GF player base, then a few minority who stick their head in the sand, ignore the math and post "OMG DAMAGE NERF!" Again, to make sure EVERYONE knows, the number crush posted is the BONUS power needed to equal the new RA, NOT the number in your char sheet.
So to get an equiv damage bonus, you need to have about 10.7k Power.
As much as I hate to say it, with new modules and time comes change. Every class has experienced it. I could post about how long it took me to get a perfect vorpal for my TR for them to shortly afterwards nerf crit based TR builds into the ground and ruin all my effort. I could post about how they nerfed Sent GWFs and made Destroyer THAT much better, basically forcing every GWF to buy a GPF, but I didnt. I could post about how I spent almost 10 mil AD to get a Legendary Emblem only to have them nerf THAT into the ground...
Guess what, its all apart of change and for 99% of the GF population its an improvement.
Part of your issue is this:
- You are are PVE only player, which is fine, BUT! Balance cannot come through taking 10k GS dungeons, throwing a 16kGS+ group into it, and then watching how they perform. Like you said, higher GS groups take less damage, thus to players, like you, who fully stacked power for PVE purposes, you see this as a nerf.
The issue is YOUR solution STILL pigeon holes the GF in PVP and future PVE content as well. Imagine if they released an actual HARD version of CN, one that had control immune mobs, that hit like a truck... One that well, was GS appropriate. Then youd be complaining because your GF (tank class) cant tank.
You CANT look at existing PVE content and make balance decisions around it for a small minorty of the GF-PVE only player base who significantly outgear content.
The old Reckless Attacker is more fun, because it made the player carefully ponder when to block.
This NEVER EVER made it "fun" What this amounts to for both difficult PVE content and PVP especially is the GF LOSES damage the more damage he takes. Essentially in PVP this is what honestly killed the GF class. Without guard meter the GF was weak in damage AND had nothing to survive.
I would strongly encourage you to look at this from the correct lens. If you want to look at PVE, take a proper GS player doing proper GS dungeons. I personally think PVP is where the "fine tuning" SHOULD be done, not because I am a PVPer but because there is no "content level" in PVP. The BIS players play against BIS players and this is truly where you can find what is balanced and what isnt.
... In both cases they leave. Good luck justifying that to the people at perfect world who oversee the finances.
And in general, I think it is always questionable to say: "Hey the plan we have is great. If the humans don't like it, it is the humans that have to change, not the plan". Especially in the area of entertainment I find that to be questionable.
Old, old, it is just old.
The rage about the Stalwart Bulwark change was equal high and many posted they would leave and it were going to break the class; so please stop filling this thread with threats and complaints that are so old like the game is and older like the one "we are no longer in the beta phase" because it is almost the same saying from the time of the Bulwark change.
All this ranting is helping noone.
And the ones who took their goodbye used their time here well to show that they never took the time to test the new mechanics or to badmouth everyone who was not of their opinion; why should someone miss this displayed behaviour?
I meant that I was in a thornward against an HR. My block was still "up" and I was taking full damage from the HR with GPF. So the old block would absorb all damage, so despite mitigation a BIG hit could still be blocked... But as it is now, if we are fighting an HR with a TON of DR mitigation via one of their six encounters, we drop in about 10-15 seconds....
So I love all the changes, I really do. But the guard bugs out against an hr in thornward, and it will flash totally red when we have been mitigated to a certain point.
Example
I was on Raidcall fighting an HR on test server. He was saying he saw that I was at zero stamina/guardmeter when on my screen i still had 50% less. With no thornward I was block a LOT of damage. WITH thornward, compared to me blocking or not blocking. I literally took near the exact same amount of damage since HR's can easily double thornward and in some cases triple thornward now. (I'm sure that will be fixed I hope)... So I really do like all these changes, I'm just leery about being able to be mitigated to where my block is literally soaking like 20% damage... For instance GPF + Terror + GF Mark + Thornward..... I don't know exactly which of those reduces my DR from the shield per say, but thornward and GPF 100% made me take near full damage while my shield was up..
That is what I meant by the mitigation. It can literally render our shield, useless.
I think part of this issue is that since block was hardcapped and counted in the same DR level as regular DR, you were able to mitigate it down.
HOPEFULLY, when its fixed it will be its own DR level (like tenacity) that cannot be mitigated.
What this means is if 1000 damage comes in, you have say 45% DR. Normally youd mitigate 450 damage, however the attacker has 25% ARP so your 45% mitigation drops to 20%. You have 20% in tenacity. NOW with the new block youll have a whole OTHER level of DR at 80%.
So the math SHOULD BE:
1000 damage, 25% ARP against your 45% DR, 20% tenacity BLOCKING(80%) GF.
1000 comes in against 45% DR, 25% is mitigated by ARP making the hit deal 800 damage, then tenacity kicks in for another 20% mitigation down to 640 remaining damage, which is THEN mitigated by block for another 80% = 128 damage came through.
So in total it would block 87.2% of the damage. Where as right now, it gets hard capped at 80%, ARP takes it down to 55% meaning you took 450 damage.
But yes I think there are ALSO still things/attacks that are "getting around" our block, one of which is thorn ward.
Reckless Attacker: Each time you strike an opponent, gain a stack of Reckless Attacker. Each stack grants 1500 power and 4% critical strike chance. Stacks 3 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
Id like to get more opinion on this idea? This gives players a large majority of their "power" back. Basically any GF with <9000 power on LIVE will get a larger power boost.
Then the crit provides roughly another 9% DPS meaning roughly = 1530 power (3060 with the OLD RA) Which would mean any GF who stacked about 12k Power on Live would see equal benefits in DPS.
This provides power over damage - something people complained about.
This provides decent crit chance - the biggest area DPS GFs were lacking.
I dont see AT ALL how it is "OP" I think this would be a good "middle ground" for everyone. The fact that its 3 stacks and WE APPLY IT makes it really easy for a GF to roll into combat, get up and KEEP it up - we have no control over people hitting us.
So I think this solves everyone's dilemma around this rework.
Id like to get more opinion on this idea? This gives players a large majority of their "power" back. Basically any GF with <9000 power on LIVE will get a larger power boost.
Then the crit provides roughly another 9% DPS meaning roughly = 1530 power (3060 with the OLD RA) Which would mean any GF who stacked about 12k Power on Live would see equal benefits in DPS.
This provides power over damage - something people complained about.
This provides decent crit chance - the biggest area DPS GFs were lacking.
I dont see AT ALL how it is "OP" I think this would be a good "middle ground" for everyone. The fact that its 3 stacks and WE APPLY IT makes it really easy for a GF to roll into combat, get up and KEEP it up - we have no control over people hitting us.
So I think this solves everyone's dilemma around this rework.
Except for the central flaw that it doesn't work if Level cap or equipment rules or power changes Also it totally breaks everyone pre 60 (because power is not 166 points per % pre 60).
Protector: Iron Guard: Now stacks 4 times, reducing enemy damage by 5% per stack (Maximum reduction of 20%, up from 10%).
It still doesn't feel appropriate. It should activate on taking damage rather than attacking and doing damage (something Protector GFs definitely aren't good at), but I'm still for a full rework...
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joebendaMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited July 2014
First time poster here, and while I haven't played my guardian fighter for very long, I strongly feel some of these changes are going in the wrong direction. Now I haven't read the other 70+ pages of the thread but I'd like to give my two cents before the blocking mechanic becomes less useful in how I like to play my GF.
Feedback: Blocking/Guard Meter There are a couple things I find counter-intuitive about the changes, first off the constant drain of stamina regardless of whether or not you're taking damage is a huge problem. In PvE it will take away a lot of my survivability at low health and have a huge impact on my flexibility as a tank. In PvP it will reduce my ability to hold my ground against CW and HR if they can negate my shield just by staying out of reach. I'd dislike it immensely to see this implemented as it stands on the test server.
On a related note, a couple days ago when I first tried out the test server, block no longer reduced my run speed. Regardless of if this is intentional or not, I feel that the run speed reduction was a fair trade off for the non-depleting block meter. It helped create *some* balance in pvp, as well as give a sense of reduced mobility in pve which I find completely well imposed. The full run speed while blocking just looks silly.
The activation time I didn't really think much of, it will help more casual Guardian Fighters block more effectively and it'd help if block does become stamina based, but I really don't think its broken enough to change this dramatically.
On the plus side, I was really exited for the change of it not being impenetrable. I think that taking damage while blocking will help deter people from relying on it too much and encourage more diverse builds. However I feel it would be best if it still blocked all the CC effects that it currently does. I for one use block less as damage immunity and more as a guaranteed dodge for larger attacks and aoes. Taking 20% of the damage that I usually shrug off will be a significant amount to overcome but still not unreasonably so.
Feedback: Threat Now this I have no issues with, I think it was well deserved. The AoE taunt more or less switching places with CW's singularity will help immensely in large scale AoE fests where there are simply too many adds for one GF to control. Knights valor transferring more threat is wonderful, though I'd be happy with 125% instead of a full 200%. Mark is a lot more useful on boss fights where I would otherwise fight to hold threat.
Now my only concern with mark is the GWFs who like using it even while a GF is trying to keep up his mark on a boss. I understand that it isn't a huge deal and one will just have to accommodate the other but maybe put less importance on mark for GWF, or make it purely threat related for them, not with any added bonuses for having it up as I recall seeing in their trait lines (I could be wrong here).
This being said I should mention I play more as mitigation. Sword-master / Tactician, with Knights Valor / Enforced Threat / Lunging Strike, and Knight Captain armor or Timeless Heroes armor. 14k GS for reference I guess, and I haven't spent much time in IWD.
I appreciate the opportunity to have my say, keep up the good work.
Why not give the shield another function? Using a shield successfully kind of feels a little contrary to itself. Why shouldn't blocked damage disregard the Armor Penetration stat entirely to begin with? I mean really.
Crush
Please look into skills like shocking execution and other rogue dailies that go through our guard now. The other buffs are great and iron guard activating on you doing dmg is a smart
Comments
Protector capstone even with the intended changes still does not make the tree any more appealing. The problem with tanking/survivability is that block can be easily bypassed. Mobs get pushed behind the GF and players can easily get behind him. His survival will still be based off a mechanic that can easily be avoided. To make the spec a true "tank" spec he needs something that is reliable (like the GWF unstoppable, it works no matter where the attacker is at). Changing the capstone to something like "Shield Specialization: You can black attacks coming from any direction (360 degree). This feat also increases your deflect by 5%" would give GF something that would be a reliable way to stop damage.
The reckless attacker 5 stack 20% damage bonus, where is it applied? On post #666 I took screen shots of me with and without and the only bonus shows is the Boon giving me 3%?
Does the reckless attacker bonus damage just apply without actually raising stats? Does it act as another auto Mark on my targets? I only ask as I tried over and over letting things attack me watching my stats and nothing changed on me albeit my crit %.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It is currently bugged on preview, and a fix should be going out in the next build that fixes it (as has been noted previously)
I must have missed that info, my bad. I will await the next push.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I want to clarify for players who dont quite understand what this number means. 5395 means BASE power WITHOUT the current capstone on LIVE. So WITH your reckless attacker capstone your power in your character sheet would say "10,770". This number refers to the BASE power required which is then doubled to give you an equal damage bonus equal to the NEW RA capstone.
Thanks for the feedback here Crush. I understand this is NOT a DPS class, however I think it may be underestimated how much weapon damage factors into our total damage, having a capstone giving us 39% DPS - while it seems high, when you put this in light of the difference in weapon damage, either our "tab (20% dmg) or HALF of this DPS boost, only levels the playing field in that area... GFs wont be running around in PVP getting 18k crits (like Destroyer GWFs) or even 15k+ Dailies (Ice Knife).
What if this would meet us somewhere in the middle. Some players are complaining about losing power, others want crit.
What about:
Reckless Attacker: Each time you strike an opponent, gain a stack of Reckless Attacker. Each stack grants 1500 power and 4% critical strike chance. Stacks 3 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
1500 power = roughly 8.8% damage * 3 = 26.4% dmg boost. 12% crit equals roughly 9% DPS boost meaning in total its just around 35% total damage boost.
I think making it proc off OUR hits, gives us control of the stacks. 10 seconds seems reasonable. If its 5 stacks it requires TOO many of our hits to proc this, where as if its 3 stacks it seems like we can build that momentum and keep it fairly easily.
This change would give GFs power (4500 power) so it would be inline with what many are already experiencing with power stacking builds - thus not changing their builds all that much. At the same time gives GFs slightly more critical - which is honestly the biggest weakness of the class. I think this would be a fair middle ground that would appease almost all the player base.
Thanks for some love here. I think I can speak for everyone that we appreciate these changes! I still think Iron Guard The stacks should apply when the GF receives damage from an attacker.
I think the conq capstone should be based on attacking, gaining buffs, the defensive capstone should be based on defending and receiving damage.... Just my 2 cents
Interesting, I like the ability to control my own dps rather then goad things into attacking me so I can wait for 5 stacks. This would be a nice change and it would be visible across the board.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Agreed, the HR is WAY too tanky. Primarily because of their dodge mechanic as well as some of their other buffs. Honestly Aspect of the Lone Wolf should be reversed. Instead of lowering your DR for each player near you, you should gain DR in proportion to the number of player near you. Thus you become more tanky the more players near you. I think in 1v1 situations this is causing the HR to be FAR too tanky and it seems counter-intuitive to me. In 1v1, they should gain very little DR boost, but surrounded by 5 opponants, this is their class feature that allows them to actually survive.
What do you think of my above proposition? 1500 power + 4% crit stacks 3 times.
If you have 14k power, this would put you back to 7k+4500 = 11,500 power. But gaining 12% Crit is another 9% DPS.
While its a DPS loss, for you to get 14k power you had to lose quite a bit of defensive stats PLUS the ability to use your shield. So this change you still lose about 15% DPS on power, but gain 9% back as crit.
So a total loss of 6% but you gained 12% MORE from mark now so roughly still a DPS boost. This also still allows you to use your shield, AND swap out for more defensive stats or heck even crit/recovery if you would like.
People are saying they shouldnt be catering to the "few pvpers" or the "minority" well... I dont know many GFs who power stack 14k power and if they do, I can guarantee they do not perform well in PVP. These changes (along with some of the others Crush has rolled out) I think will make it a better experience for GFs even in PVE as well.
The cap on ET getting bumped is a massive DPS boost, plus the ability to block increases survivability. That and also all marked targets grant teammates CA? That seems like a reason to bring a GF to me. Plus now that GWFs are not as tanky, CWs dont deal as much damage, it balanced the field MUCH more for the GF that can tank, to also deal decent damage.
I messaged you, but I will ask here, are you opposed to merging Villains Menace and Fighters Recovery? This would help the GF immensely as they would no longer have to choose freedom, or healing themselves...
I would tone it down some and limit the healing received by a capped % of course, remove the bonus damage on Villains and just use the immunity but this would be an amazing change!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I feel like both this Protector and Tactician buff is a lazy rework - they didn't even made it more appealing.
Our protector capstone can't even compare to the sentinel capstone
Feedback
Protector = increased your DR by 10% and provide 5% of your total DR to your allies
FEEDBACK:
Mark has gotten a big revamp. Better DR for GF, better agro, and grants CA. With Enforced threat hitting more targets, that means more marks too. However, there seems to be a loophole, since the guard now allows damage through. Before, you could enforced threat/rush and mark mobs. Then you could put up your shield, and the mark would last a bit, because they did not damage you. Also, since mark was not as good of agro, they may not even care and try and hit you, thus staying marked.
Now, they WILL agro you, and they will hit you thru your shield... so they will lose the mark. Like I said, i need to confirm, but now i see Enforced threat - > bam all marked - > bam all hit you, no more mark. Yes it will give ca/etc for an instant, and agro for an instant, but then it is gone.
Can this be changed to a timed duration on the mark from TR and EF? Or made so if they hit you through your shield they don't lose mark?
I like this idea ALOT. Temp Mark = flat duration for mark. This could be a good fix for threat Rush as well and give even temp mark a little love in PVP.
I STRONGLY encourage temp mark (non-tab mark) to be a fixed duration, maybe 4-5 seconds seems fair? This actually helps GWFs too from IBS mark and Threat Rush mark being able to use mark in a weaker fashion.
How about fixing plant the seedlings n read the thayan writings these can not be completed on preview. no completion no progress n no further testing
no our new protector capstone is just horrible it should be 20 plus 10% deflection hell even GWF get it from weapon master stacks why cant the actual tank class?
bug Armor specialization
this talent does not do anything at all when feated 3/3 and needs to be fixed or atleast it doesnt show in the character sheet.
Ok, we have this much debated issue now not only from players but straight from the source. I have as well as someone else in this thread 14k power with my GF. It took me very long to get there, I don't think my GF is overpowerered, and I don't see why I should get punished now.
The old Reckless Attacker is more fun, because it made the player carefully ponder when to block. It is also better, because the player has more control over it, since he can choose when to raise the shield. Also, in higher geared and skilled parties, the party takes less damage, and therefore as a GF you need to block less and thus bring more dps to the party which makes us more desireable for these kind of parties that very rarely invite us. The proposed Reckless Attacker at the live server works the other way around - it makes us LESS deriable to get into parties that we have difficulties to get into.
Mr. Gentlemancrush, the GF class is one of the least played classes, and with module 4 it is supposed to become better. One should assume therefore, that this thread should have a moderate amount of feedback with a relaxed atmosphere. And yet, DESPITE these facts, this official feedback thread has already 79 pages of tension filled discussions - or better described: conflicts. We see players vividly opposing these fundamental changes to our class, and we see even posts of players announcing here that they will quit if these changes go live!
These are STRONG indications that what is at the preview server is the wrong direction. Please keep the old Reckless Attacker feat (with maybe a +x% crit) and completely scrap the idea of the stamina-guard. Don't twist our GFs, don't change the core of what makes a GF a GF! We are not in the open beta anymore, we are live since over a year.
As well as possibly an indication of fear of innovation and an indication of stubbornness which prevents those players from adapting to the new mechanics but lets them proclaim the downfall of a class which is still able to do everything I was able to do before the changes and despite of players who tested the new mechanics stating that the new ones work as well as the old ones.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
For the sake of the argument, let's assume that the explanation for the negative feedback you offered is true (which I think is not). In that case the players opposed to the stamina-guard and its fallout will leave because of the reason you gave, and not because of the reasons I gave. In both cases they leave. Good luck justifying that to the people at perfect world who oversee the finances.
And in general, I think it is always questionable to say: "Hey the plan we have is great. If the humans don't like it, it is the humans that have to change, not the plan". Especially in the area of entertainment I find that to be questionable.
I meant that I was in a thornward against an HR. My block was still "up" and I was taking full damage from the HR with GPF. So the old block would absorb all damage, so despite mitigation a BIG hit could still be blocked... But as it is now, if we are fighting an HR with a TON of DR mitigation via one of their six encounters, we drop in about 10-15 seconds....
So I love all the changes, I really do. But the guard bugs out against an hr in thornward, and it will flash totally red when we have been mitigated to a certain point.
Example
I was on Raidcall fighting an HR on test server. He was saying he saw that I was at zero stamina/guardmeter when on my screen i still had 50% less. With no thornward I was block a LOT of damage. WITH thornward, compared to me blocking or not blocking. I literally took near the exact same amount of damage since HR's can easily double thornward and in some cases triple thornward now. (I'm sure that will be fixed I hope)... So I really do like all these changes, I'm just leery about being able to be mitigated to where my block is literally soaking like 20% damage... For instance GPF + Terror + GF Mark + Thornward..... I don't know exactly which of those reduces my DR from the shield per say, but thornward and GPF 100% made me take near full damage while my shield was up..
That is what I meant by the mitigation. It can literally render our shield, useless.
Beta Junkie
There really has never been any debate around this, there is a handful of players who offered the rough math, who have been saying its going to be roughly the same or better for a LARGE majority of the GF player base, then a few minority who stick their head in the sand, ignore the math and post "OMG DAMAGE NERF!" Again, to make sure EVERYONE knows, the number crush posted is the BONUS power needed to equal the new RA, NOT the number in your char sheet.
So to get an equiv damage bonus, you need to have about 10.7k Power.
As much as I hate to say it, with new modules and time comes change. Every class has experienced it. I could post about how long it took me to get a perfect vorpal for my TR for them to shortly afterwards nerf crit based TR builds into the ground and ruin all my effort. I could post about how they nerfed Sent GWFs and made Destroyer THAT much better, basically forcing every GWF to buy a GPF, but I didnt. I could post about how I spent almost 10 mil AD to get a Legendary Emblem only to have them nerf THAT into the ground...
Guess what, its all apart of change and for 99% of the GF population its an improvement.
Part of your issue is this:
- You are are PVE only player, which is fine, BUT! Balance cannot come through taking 10k GS dungeons, throwing a 16kGS+ group into it, and then watching how they perform. Like you said, higher GS groups take less damage, thus to players, like you, who fully stacked power for PVE purposes, you see this as a nerf.
The issue is YOUR solution STILL pigeon holes the GF in PVP and future PVE content as well. Imagine if they released an actual HARD version of CN, one that had control immune mobs, that hit like a truck... One that well, was GS appropriate. Then youd be complaining because your GF (tank class) cant tank.
You CANT look at existing PVE content and make balance decisions around it for a small minorty of the GF-PVE only player base who significantly outgear content.
This NEVER EVER made it "fun" What this amounts to for both difficult PVE content and PVP especially is the GF LOSES damage the more damage he takes. Essentially in PVP this is what honestly killed the GF class. Without guard meter the GF was weak in damage AND had nothing to survive.
I would strongly encourage you to look at this from the correct lens. If you want to look at PVE, take a proper GS player doing proper GS dungeons. I personally think PVP is where the "fine tuning" SHOULD be done, not because I am a PVPer but because there is no "content level" in PVP. The BIS players play against BIS players and this is truly where you can find what is balanced and what isnt.
Old, old, it is just old.
The rage about the Stalwart Bulwark change was equal high and many posted they would leave and it were going to break the class; so please stop filling this thread with threats and complaints that are so old like the game is and older like the one "we are no longer in the beta phase" because it is almost the same saying from the time of the Bulwark change.
All this ranting is helping noone.
And the ones who took their goodbye used their time here well to show that they never took the time to test the new mechanics or to badmouth everyone who was not of their opinion; why should someone miss this displayed behaviour?
I think part of this issue is that since block was hardcapped and counted in the same DR level as regular DR, you were able to mitigate it down.
HOPEFULLY, when its fixed it will be its own DR level (like tenacity) that cannot be mitigated.
What this means is if 1000 damage comes in, you have say 45% DR. Normally youd mitigate 450 damage, however the attacker has 25% ARP so your 45% mitigation drops to 20%. You have 20% in tenacity. NOW with the new block youll have a whole OTHER level of DR at 80%.
So the math SHOULD BE:
1000 damage, 25% ARP against your 45% DR, 20% tenacity BLOCKING(80%) GF.
1000 comes in against 45% DR, 25% is mitigated by ARP making the hit deal 800 damage, then tenacity kicks in for another 20% mitigation down to 640 remaining damage, which is THEN mitigated by block for another 80% = 128 damage came through.
So in total it would block 87.2% of the damage. Where as right now, it gets hard capped at 80%, ARP takes it down to 55% meaning you took 450 damage.
But yes I think there are ALSO still things/attacks that are "getting around" our block, one of which is thorn ward.
Id like to get more opinion on this idea? This gives players a large majority of their "power" back. Basically any GF with <9000 power on LIVE will get a larger power boost.
Then the crit provides roughly another 9% DPS meaning roughly = 1530 power (3060 with the OLD RA) Which would mean any GF who stacked about 12k Power on Live would see equal benefits in DPS.
This provides power over damage - something people complained about.
This provides decent crit chance - the biggest area DPS GFs were lacking.
I dont see AT ALL how it is "OP" I think this would be a good "middle ground" for everyone. The fact that its 3 stacks and WE APPLY IT makes it really easy for a GF to roll into combat, get up and KEEP it up - we have no control over people hitting us.
So I think this solves everyone's dilemma around this rework.
Except for the central flaw that it doesn't work if Level cap or equipment rules or power changes
It has to be a percent bonus for these reasons.
It still doesn't feel appropriate. It should activate on taking damage rather than attacking and doing damage (something Protector GFs definitely aren't good at), but I'm still for a full rework...
Feedback: Blocking/Guard Meter
There are a couple things I find counter-intuitive about the changes, first off the constant drain of stamina regardless of whether or not you're taking damage is a huge problem. In PvE it will take away a lot of my survivability at low health and have a huge impact on my flexibility as a tank. In PvP it will reduce my ability to hold my ground against CW and HR if they can negate my shield just by staying out of reach. I'd dislike it immensely to see this implemented as it stands on the test server.
On a related note, a couple days ago when I first tried out the test server, block no longer reduced my run speed. Regardless of if this is intentional or not, I feel that the run speed reduction was a fair trade off for the non-depleting block meter. It helped create *some* balance in pvp, as well as give a sense of reduced mobility in pve which I find completely well imposed. The full run speed while blocking just looks silly.
The activation time I didn't really think much of, it will help more casual Guardian Fighters block more effectively and it'd help if block does become stamina based, but I really don't think its broken enough to change this dramatically.
On the plus side, I was really exited for the change of it not being impenetrable. I think that taking damage while blocking will help deter people from relying on it too much and encourage more diverse builds. However I feel it would be best if it still blocked all the CC effects that it currently does. I for one use block less as damage immunity and more as a guaranteed dodge for larger attacks and aoes. Taking 20% of the damage that I usually shrug off will be a significant amount to overcome but still not unreasonably so.
Feedback: Threat
Now this I have no issues with, I think it was well deserved. The AoE taunt more or less switching places with CW's singularity will help immensely in large scale AoE fests where there are simply too many adds for one GF to control. Knights valor transferring more threat is wonderful, though I'd be happy with 125% instead of a full 200%. Mark is a lot more useful on boss fights where I would otherwise fight to hold threat.
Now my only concern with mark is the GWFs who like using it even while a GF is trying to keep up his mark on a boss. I understand that it isn't a huge deal and one will just have to accommodate the other but maybe put less importance on mark for GWF, or make it purely threat related for them, not with any added bonuses for having it up as I recall seeing in their trait lines (I could be wrong here).
This being said I should mention I play more as mitigation. Sword-master / Tactician, with Knights Valor / Enforced Threat / Lunging Strike, and Knight Captain armor or Timeless Heroes armor. 14k GS for reference I guess, and I haven't spent much time in IWD.
I appreciate the opportunity to have my say, keep up the good work.
Please look into skills like shocking execution and other rogue dailies that go through our guard now. The other buffs are great and iron guard activating on you doing dmg is a smart