lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited September 2014
No one ever complained about the SoS & KV combo until KV gave a lot of AP, combined with red dragon gylphs. Choose your next nerf wisely.
_____________________
Before you go on nerfing/balancing lemme point out a few things.
1. Because of the reflection + Glyphs, GF's can finally kill OP HR's.
2. The AP gain is essential in PvE in the new higher dungeons too help keep the GF alive by being able to activate fighter's recovery, especially with Knight's Valor active.
3. Don't nerf a class because of a small percentage of players.
4. GF's are finally node holders, they're the tanks. GF's are suppose too be the most difficult thing too take down, and require team work.
5. Only adjust 1 thing at a time. Ex; nerf the AP gain from KV in PvP ONLY, and keep the gylphs the way they are right now, then monitor the results.
6. There are now more GF's on the top 10 pages of the leader board.
7. I highly recommend only adjusting the AP gain from KV instead of remove glyphs proc'ing off reflection damage. Because that's how super defensive GF's get some damage in. Protectors already hit like HAMSTER, they need glyphs too some what make up for their DPS sacrifice.
7. I highly recommend only adjusting the AP gain from KV instead of remove glyphs proc'ing off reflection damage. Because that's how super defensive GF's get some damage in. Protectors already hit like HAMSTER, they need glyphs too some what make up for their DPS sacrifice.
No offense, but if you want to deal damage, don't play a meatshield. Turtling up, should not be rewarded with damage, at all since you chose to not deal any damage in the first place. Roll a conqueror instead, with offensive equip and you will have your damage.
No offense, but if you want to deal damage, don't play a meatshield. Turtling up, should not be rewarded with damage, at all since you chose to not deal any damage in the first place. Roll a conqueror instead, with offensive equip and you will have your damage.
It is as easy as that.
And if you choose Conquerer - by your logic - we should not be rewarded with tank-ability at all, since we chose not to take any damage in the first place? Do you get problem?
The goal here is to keep both ways viable in their respective way.
And if you choose Conquerer - by your logic - we should not be rewarded with tank-ability at all, since we chose not to take any damage in the first place? Do you get problem?
The goal here is to keep both ways viable in their respective way.
Nice try, but tanking as a conqueror takes twice as much skill then just turtling up and letting passives do the job.
Nice try, but tanking as a conqueror takes twice as much skill then just turtling up and letting passives do the job.
1+1 is not 3.
It seems you do not get that both ways of play style are part of the same game.
Do not try to sell Conqueror as the only viable way by a rant about skill (which is always based on likes and dislikes) and if that were the case, some balancing would be needed. The recent changes were due as the defensive style was much more rewarding than an offensive, but I am not sure how badly they impede now a more defensive style.
0
lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited October 2014
With the ability too mitigate SoS's damage via deflect/damage resistance, that is going too make things incredibly difficult for mid-range GF's when fighting HR's TR's and multiple CW's. I honestly don't know why they decided too nerf SoS when SoS was NEVER the problem. If it was, people would have brought it too the forums a LOOONG time go. The ONLY issues were KV's AP gain, and Glyphs.
Reasons why SoS is NOT OP:
1. (TR's) - When fighting perma stealth rogues, who use duelist Flurry (DF for short). For the most part, you can only deal damage too them when you catch them off guard after they roll while activating stealth, or when you catch them DF'ing you. For those who are unaware, TR's have 100% deflection while Impossible to Catch (ITC for short) is active. With that said, after many months of using SoS too combat these TR's. Not ONCE have they ever complained.
2. (HR's) - If there was a poll, based on figuring out what the most over powered class in the game was. The HR would take first place, but this thread is not about that. However, I said that because the ONLY effective way too kill the HR as a GF is too allow him/her too kill him/herself via SoS. HR's can achieve a really high deflection chance, have access too incredible self healing, and lots of immunity via dodges & encounter animations. With their high deflection, immunity, and DPS, how are mid-range GF's suppose too combat these 6 dodge having, DPS, immunity 'things?'
3. Do you guys understand what I'm getting at here? SoS was not the issue, the action point gain and Glyphs were, on a ratio scale of 80% AP 20% Glyphs. Speaking of Gylphs, this is about too sound crazy, but Glyphs were actually balancing things out in high end PvP. But high end PvP'ers only make up like 3% of the PvP population (which includes me), so I say nerfs/balancing should NOT be based on the 3%'ers needs, but should be based on the 97%'ers needs.
One last thing, from what I've seen. SoS seems too have an damage cap. For example, if the DAILY Supremacy of Steel reflected 20% of incoming damage, you would think when a GWF smacks 15k on you, you'd reflect 3,750 damage. But this NEVER happens! The highest I've seen SoS hit for was like 800-1.2k damage. So if players can now mitigate (damage resistance), and deflect this damage. SoS is going too s..............
I highly recommened you un-nerf the dailies that requires 100% action points; Supremacy of Steel. Un-nerf lurkers assault, un-nerf ice knife, un-nerf shocking execution.
I feel the GF has been gimped in PvP; firstly, at least 3/5 players in PvP is now a ranged (CC'er) player with the introduction of the SW. Secondly, our frontline surge now only stuns, which is a huge disadvantage. Thirdly, the SW gets a ~4/5 sec PRONE which is harder to block than a normal hit.
PvP is way less enjoyable for me, for the abovementioned reasons. Anyone agrees?
That's why I quit PvP with my GF... Since mod 3 GF's have had to work five times harder to achieve the same ranks as other classes. It wasn't worth the heartache and frustration anymore. A kid with down's syndrome could play an HR and smoke any of our GF's in mod 3. I gave up PvP because I realized that the developers do NOT want GF's to be a decent class for PvP or PvE.
No one ever complained about the SoS & KV combo until KV gave a lot of AP, combined with red dragon gylphs. Choose your next nerf wisely.
Before you go on nerfing/balancing lemme point out a few things.
1. Because of the reflection + Glyphs, GF's can finally kill OP HR's.
2. The AP gain is essential in PvE in the new higher dungeons too help keep the GF alive by being able to activate fighter's recovery, especially with Knight's Valor active.
3. Don't nerf a class because of a small percentage of players.
4. GF's are finally node holders, they're the tanks. GF's are suppose too be the most difficult thing too take down, and require team work.
5. Only adjust 1 thing at a time. Ex; nerf the AP gain from KV in PvP ONLY, and keep the gylphs the way they are right now, then monitor the results.
6. There are now more GF's on the top 10 pages of the leader board.
7. I highly recommend only adjusting the AP gain from KV instead of remove glyphs proc'ing off reflection damage. Because that's how super defensive GF's get some damage in. Protectors already hit like HAMSTER, they need glyphs too some what make up for their DPS sacrifice.
The nerfs to SoS and KV killed my PvE spec. I cannot survive because I cannot generate AP. I am now an easy kill in ELoL and ESoT for the bosses.
I can't reflect damage to help out with dps. I cannot get aggro as I can't generate ap to do damage and I cannot heal myself anymore as i do not have AP to use a daily.
I had to shelve HAMSTER in Mod 3 because we were easy kills and had no purpose...and now I have to shelve him again for the same reasons in Mod 4. It's fn disgusting that I have to shelf a 20k GS Guardian fighter because he is now once again rendered useless in PvE and probably PvP as well.
HAMSTER, level 60 GF, "Bloodthirsty" since Mod 2 Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
No offense, but if you want to deal damage, don't play a meatshield. Turtling up, should not be rewarded with damage, at all since you chose to not deal any damage in the first place. Roll a conqueror instead, with offensive equip and you will have your damage.
It is as easy as that.
Umm you don't understand the threat mechanic. Marks alone will not generate enough threat to hold mobs being attacked by strikers. It is a modifier on base threat which is generated either by healing or damage. So if your tank does no damage it generates no threat. Sono damage no tank.
In Epic Shores of Tuern I never had problems now with the new changes.
But I do not think Supremacy of Steel is no more so rewarding like the other Dailies, especially in PvP: Against Hunter Rangers I now have even less chances after they reach certain levels of self-healing and deflecting.
0
lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
That's why I quit PvP with my GF... Since mod 3 GF's have had to work five times harder to achieve the same ranks as other classes. It wasn't worth the heartache and frustration anymore. A kid with down's syndrome could play an HR and smoke any of our GF's in mod 3. I gave up PvP because I realized that the developers do NOT want GF's to be a decent class for PvP or PvE.
The nerfs to SoS and KV killed my PvE spec. I cannot survive because I cannot generate AP. I am now an easy kill in ELoL and ESoT for the bosses.
I can't reflect damage to help out with dps. I cannot get aggro as I can't generate ap to do damage and I cannot heal myself anymore as i do not have AP to use a daily.
I had to shelve HAMSTER in Mod 3 because we were easy kills and had no purpose...and now I have to shelve him again for the same reasons in Mod 4. It's fn disgusting that I have to shelf a 20k GS Guardian fighter because he is now once again rendered useless in PvE and probably PvP as well.
I predicted PvE GF's were going too feel it the most, especially in eLoL & eSoT because the mobs hit so dang hard, that you need that AP too activate Fighter's Recovery. I wonder why they couldn't just lowered the AP gain for PvP ONLY!... Probably because it won't be simple too code.
Umm you don't understand the threat mechanic. Marks alone will not generate enough threat to hold mobs being attacked by strikers. It is a modifier on base threat which is generated either by healing or damage. So if your tank does no damage it generates no threat. Sono damage no tank.
I know the threat system for a little bit over 5 years by now because it is the same as in another cryptic mmo.
I'm just going to put this in, for whatever good it may do. I am a long time tank player, from many other MMOs before this, and I've seen some trends in thought on tanks that I think need to be looked at more carefully. Those trends are very evident in Neverwinter.
One of the first things I see is powers which ONLY serve to generate threat. Threat in and of itself makes no sense whatsoever. The ability to force the enemy to attack who I say? Sure the default is me, but why couldn't that amazing psychic power cause the monsters to attack each other, or random players I don't like? It doesn't make sense for threat to exist as a manipulable thing.
Threat should result from the tank actually BEING a threat. A source of debuffs, damage, and hindrance to the monster's efforts. A lot of people are probably reading this and saying "Well DUH, that's what it does!"
The problem becomes evident when you look at the tank's actual powers, and keep in mind that Neverwinter imposes very severe restrictions on how many powers can be active.
Throughout the Guardian fighter's passive and active trees, choices must be made between purchasing threat increasers or purchasing powers that DO something, such as healing, dps, or defense. Again and again, I see powers at each level, in every tree that on the one hand allow one to cause more threat, and on the other allow one to actually BE a threat. This results in the counter intuitive case in which to be a GOOD tank, who can hold threat and live, you have to give up on actually doing anything meaningful. You are just a big fuzzy ball of inexplicable mind control.
I think that any and all powers that generate threat alone, such as Mark and Enhanced Mark, should be folded into other existing powers.
The idea of spending one of your two passive abilities on generating threat (being your role) or your primary class ability button on declaring your primary threat target (being your role) is ludicrous.
Devote Clerics don't have to spend a passive skill slot on being able to target other players with their heals.
Damage dealing classes don't have to use a passive skill slot on doing damage.
Those effects come standard with every power they have. The Devoted Cleric has a selection of abilities that heal. Those abilities can heal whatever legal targets the Cleric designates, even people they aren't in party with. The Damage dealing classes can deal full damage to any target they select.
But to really build threat and BE the tank, the Guardian Fighter must select for one of his passives an ability that in no way grants any combat advantage, it just authorizes you to generate threat. The Mark power, while it DOES have many uses, is primarily used to assign a mark to an enemy that won't wear off easily. That mark exists primarily to control threat.
I believe that the RIGHT way to build a tank does not include random mind control. Let the threat be generated based on how much of an actual threat the tank is. Let the tank's powers be to actually do things that inconvenience, hurt, slow, debuff, weaken, or damage the target. That will instantly give GF's a much better option in play, in PvP, and in character builds.
If you are looking to overhaul GF's, and tanking, consider making their powers make sense.
"Sure the default is me, but why couldn't that amazing psychic power cause the monsters to attack each other, or random players I don't like? It doesn't make sense for threat to exist as a manipulable thing."
This debate is almost as old as MMOs themselves. I can recall two years before Vanguard came out that it was serious thread. I've always taken the position that threat is a metaphor for physical control over the battlefield.
In table top games the words "I stand in front" have meaning, but in your average computer game it is a meaningless sentiment. The idea of a forward warrior making it impossible to get where you would like to be is very difficult to implement in practice. Thus: taunt.
If you don't have taunt you arn't able to generate all the game mechanics that follow from "I stand in front", thus your game ends up being a flat one note dps fest for "physical" mechanics, and "magical" mechanics end up where all the action is.
That "magical" bias ends up really messing with game design. I remember the initial devs of Everquest were particularly plagued by the mudaneness of physical abilities. For example the initial years of Everquest had rogues being this very boring class with nearly no abilities, and what I decided was the devs had imagined what a rogue would be like in Earth circa 1600, but they had not asked themselves what a rogue would be like in Norrath circa magical time. The two arn't the same creatures. So when we imagine a Guardian Fighter, even though they are not "magic users", they nevertheless are not knights of earth. They are knights of a magical realm, and one should allow themselves creative license. If you do not then most real "Guardian Fighters" would be some magical class themselves in order to be effective in this land of magical abilities, but that is artificial because a computer game isn't able to imagine in what way a Guardian Fighter could guard because most of these mmos can't do much with "I stand in front..."
A lot of single player strategy games try to enable "I stand in front" with various blocking rules, but for whatever reason MMOs arn't able to do much with the idea.
You guys should log on preview and try PVP lol... We are the least tanky class, b/w EVERY class other than SW's, and we do the LEAST damage of any class, including SW's and we have the least health regen of any class or lifesteal lol... If you exclude the off hand bug right now... It is a freaking joke. We are essentially worthless other than to stand at mid with KV up.. You get proned once in mod 5, and all 50-70k of your HP will be gone in seconds.
Comments
_____________________
Before you go on nerfing/balancing lemme point out a few things.
1. Because of the reflection + Glyphs, GF's can finally kill OP HR's.
2. The AP gain is essential in PvE in the new higher dungeons too help keep the GF alive by being able to activate fighter's recovery, especially with Knight's Valor active.
3. Don't nerf a class because of a small percentage of players.
4. GF's are finally node holders, they're the tanks. GF's are suppose too be the most difficult thing too take down, and require team work.
5. Only adjust 1 thing at a time. Ex; nerf the AP gain from KV in PvP ONLY, and keep the gylphs the way they are right now, then monitor the results.
6. There are now more GF's on the top 10 pages of the leader board.
7. I highly recommend only adjusting the AP gain from KV instead of remove glyphs proc'ing off reflection damage. Because that's how super defensive GF's get some damage in. Protectors already hit like HAMSTER, they need glyphs too some what make up for their DPS sacrifice.
No offense, but if you want to deal damage, don't play a meatshield. Turtling up, should not be rewarded with damage, at all since you chose to not deal any damage in the first place. Roll a conqueror instead, with offensive equip and you will have your damage.
It is as easy as that.
And if you choose Conquerer - by your logic - we should not be rewarded with tank-ability at all, since we chose not to take any damage in the first place? Do you get problem?
The goal here is to keep both ways viable in their respective way.
Nice try, but tanking as a conqueror takes twice as much skill then just turtling up and letting passives do the job.
1+1 is not 3.
It seems you do not get that both ways of play style are part of the same game.
Do not try to sell Conqueror as the only viable way by a rant about skill (which is always based on likes and dislikes) and if that were the case, some balancing would be needed. The recent changes were due as the defensive style was much more rewarding than an offensive, but I am not sure how badly they impede now a more defensive style.
Reasons why SoS is NOT OP:
1. (TR's) - When fighting perma stealth rogues, who use duelist Flurry (DF for short). For the most part, you can only deal damage too them when you catch them off guard after they roll while activating stealth, or when you catch them DF'ing you. For those who are unaware, TR's have 100% deflection while Impossible to Catch (ITC for short) is active. With that said, after many months of using SoS too combat these TR's. Not ONCE have they ever complained.
2. (HR's) - If there was a poll, based on figuring out what the most over powered class in the game was. The HR would take first place, but this thread is not about that. However, I said that because the ONLY effective way too kill the HR as a GF is too allow him/her too kill him/herself via SoS. HR's can achieve a really high deflection chance, have access too incredible self healing, and lots of immunity via dodges & encounter animations. With their high deflection, immunity, and DPS, how are mid-range GF's suppose too combat these 6 dodge having, DPS, immunity 'things?'
3. Do you guys understand what I'm getting at here? SoS was not the issue, the action point gain and Glyphs were, on a ratio scale of 80% AP 20% Glyphs. Speaking of Gylphs, this is about too sound crazy, but Glyphs were actually balancing things out in high end PvP. But high end PvP'ers only make up like 3% of the PvP population (which includes me), so I say nerfs/balancing should NOT be based on the 3%'ers needs, but should be based on the 97%'ers needs.
One last thing, from what I've seen. SoS seems too have an damage cap. For example, if the DAILY Supremacy of Steel reflected 20% of incoming damage, you would think when a GWF smacks 15k on you, you'd reflect 3,750 damage. But this NEVER happens! The highest I've seen SoS hit for was like 800-1.2k damage. So if players can now mitigate (damage resistance), and deflect this damage. SoS is going too s..............
I highly recommened you un-nerf the dailies that requires 100% action points; Supremacy of Steel. Un-nerf lurkers assault, un-nerf ice knife, un-nerf shocking execution.
Ant-Monster,
That's why I quit PvP with my GF... Since mod 3 GF's have had to work five times harder to achieve the same ranks as other classes. It wasn't worth the heartache and frustration anymore. A kid with down's syndrome could play an HR and smoke any of our GF's in mod 3. I gave up PvP because I realized that the developers do NOT want GF's to be a decent class for PvP or PvE.
The nerfs to SoS and KV killed my PvE spec. I cannot survive because I cannot generate AP. I am now an easy kill in ELoL and ESoT for the bosses.
I can't reflect damage to help out with dps. I cannot get aggro as I can't generate ap to do damage and I cannot heal myself anymore as i do not have AP to use a daily.
I had to shelve HAMSTER in Mod 3 because we were easy kills and had no purpose...and now I have to shelve him again for the same reasons in Mod 4. It's fn disgusting that I have to shelf a 20k GS Guardian fighter because he is now once again rendered useless in PvE and probably PvP as well.
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
Umm you don't understand the threat mechanic. Marks alone will not generate enough threat to hold mobs being attacked by strikers. It is a modifier on base threat which is generated either by healing or damage. So if your tank does no damage it generates no threat. Sono damage no tank.
But I do not think Supremacy of Steel is no more so rewarding like the other Dailies, especially in PvP: Against Hunter Rangers I now have even less chances after they reach certain levels of self-healing and deflecting.
I predicted PvE GF's were going too feel it the most, especially in eLoL & eSoT because the mobs hit so dang hard, that you need that AP too activate Fighter's Recovery. I wonder why they couldn't just lowered the AP gain for PvP ONLY!... Probably because it won't be simple too code.
I know the threat system for a little bit over 5 years by now because it is the same as in another cryptic mmo.
/*sigh*
-Sig Blood Knight@tehsig
One of the first things I see is powers which ONLY serve to generate threat. Threat in and of itself makes no sense whatsoever. The ability to force the enemy to attack who I say? Sure the default is me, but why couldn't that amazing psychic power cause the monsters to attack each other, or random players I don't like? It doesn't make sense for threat to exist as a manipulable thing.
Threat should result from the tank actually BEING a threat. A source of debuffs, damage, and hindrance to the monster's efforts. A lot of people are probably reading this and saying "Well DUH, that's what it does!"
The problem becomes evident when you look at the tank's actual powers, and keep in mind that Neverwinter imposes very severe restrictions on how many powers can be active.
Throughout the Guardian fighter's passive and active trees, choices must be made between purchasing threat increasers or purchasing powers that DO something, such as healing, dps, or defense. Again and again, I see powers at each level, in every tree that on the one hand allow one to cause more threat, and on the other allow one to actually BE a threat. This results in the counter intuitive case in which to be a GOOD tank, who can hold threat and live, you have to give up on actually doing anything meaningful. You are just a big fuzzy ball of inexplicable mind control.
I think that any and all powers that generate threat alone, such as Mark and Enhanced Mark, should be folded into other existing powers.
The idea of spending one of your two passive abilities on generating threat (being your role) or your primary class ability button on declaring your primary threat target (being your role) is ludicrous.
Devote Clerics don't have to spend a passive skill slot on being able to target other players with their heals.
Damage dealing classes don't have to use a passive skill slot on doing damage.
Those effects come standard with every power they have. The Devoted Cleric has a selection of abilities that heal. Those abilities can heal whatever legal targets the Cleric designates, even people they aren't in party with. The Damage dealing classes can deal full damage to any target they select.
But to really build threat and BE the tank, the Guardian Fighter must select for one of his passives an ability that in no way grants any combat advantage, it just authorizes you to generate threat. The Mark power, while it DOES have many uses, is primarily used to assign a mark to an enemy that won't wear off easily. That mark exists primarily to control threat.
I believe that the RIGHT way to build a tank does not include random mind control. Let the threat be generated based on how much of an actual threat the tank is. Let the tank's powers be to actually do things that inconvenience, hurt, slow, debuff, weaken, or damage the target. That will instantly give GF's a much better option in play, in PvP, and in character builds.
If you are looking to overhaul GF's, and tanking, consider making their powers make sense.
Just my opinion.
This debate is almost as old as MMOs themselves. I can recall two years before Vanguard came out that it was serious thread. I've always taken the position that threat is a metaphor for physical control over the battlefield.
In table top games the words "I stand in front" have meaning, but in your average computer game it is a meaningless sentiment. The idea of a forward warrior making it impossible to get where you would like to be is very difficult to implement in practice. Thus: taunt.
If you don't have taunt you arn't able to generate all the game mechanics that follow from "I stand in front", thus your game ends up being a flat one note dps fest for "physical" mechanics, and "magical" mechanics end up where all the action is.
That "magical" bias ends up really messing with game design. I remember the initial devs of Everquest were particularly plagued by the mudaneness of physical abilities. For example the initial years of Everquest had rogues being this very boring class with nearly no abilities, and what I decided was the devs had imagined what a rogue would be like in Earth circa 1600, but they had not asked themselves what a rogue would be like in Norrath circa magical time. The two arn't the same creatures. So when we imagine a Guardian Fighter, even though they are not "magic users", they nevertheless are not knights of earth. They are knights of a magical realm, and one should allow themselves creative license. If you do not then most real "Guardian Fighters" would be some magical class themselves in order to be effective in this land of magical abilities, but that is artificial because a computer game isn't able to imagine in what way a Guardian Fighter could guard because most of these mmos can't do much with "I stand in front..."
A lot of single player strategy games try to enable "I stand in front" with various blocking rules, but for whatever reason MMOs arn't able to do much with the idea.
GG Cryptic