I like that GWFs are getting a bit more love on the tanking front, but threat is the only niche GFs have. Sentinels already have the upper hand in survivability (don't see the block change altering that), so they should not be on par in holding threat. I don't own a geared Sentinel to compare, just saying.
Also Weapon Master is STACKED now. Crit, Deflect, AC and Threat? I would much rather see Battle Trample getting an increase in Threat generation.
Battle Trample is a paragon path feat, so changing it would not allow it for all sentinels to have it. But i agree with you. So many effects on ONE passive is silly.
Hey all! I wanted to drop in and let you know about a handful more changes to GWFs (mostly to Sentinels) that should be in the next patch. It is looking like the new patch with all the changes that have been talked about are hitting this week barring anything going wrong.
We wanted to look at Sentinel's place as tanks and improve that behavior while returning a little more survivability to Unstoppable as a whole. We felt that improving threat generation on some Sentinel feats as well as making them slightly more desirable for tanks would go a long way to helping out their role. As such we are making the following changes.
Powers
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
Feats
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
PROBLEM: GWFs Cant Land any attacks in PVP because they have no prones or adequate stuns to do so. Any competent player (DC/CW/TR/HR) can easily shift dodge faster than your animation on IBS. Not even a takedown stun or frontline stun keeps them in place long enough for IBS to take effect.
FEEDBACK: significantly increase stun duration or bring back the Prone!
Hey all, I wanted to drop by and share another set of changes we are making as well as some of the rationale behind the prone changes.
First things first, here are the incoming changes.
Guardian Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Second, I want to talk about Prone and why we are shifting some of the prones away from PVP, but not all of them. Prone has a special interaction with Deflect in that while someone has you Prone you cannot deflect any incoming attacks. While we do like this interaction in PVE, changing the behavior from PVP to PVE felt awkward and confusing for users so we decided to convert these to stuns instead and still allow the control to exist without the ability to shut off enemy player defensive stats. Secondly because of animation limitations prones cannot be any shorter than .66 seconds. Given this we wanted to allow CC resist to work correctly in more cases, and therefore we wanted prones to be generally saved either for more powerful spells (like several dailies) or for powers that require substantially more skill to land (like Shard of the Eternal Avalanche). These changes should improve the feel of CC Resistance and make it behave more uniformly in all situations.
Hey all, I wanted to drop by and share another set of changes we are making as well as some of the rationale behind the prone changes.
First things first, here are the incoming changes.
Guardian Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Second, I want to talk about Prone and why we are shifting some of the prones away from PVP, but not all of them. Prone has a special interaction with Deflect in that while someone has you Prone you cannot deflect any incoming attacks. While we do like this interaction in PVE, changing the behavior from PVP to PVE felt awkward and confusing for users so we decided to convert these to stuns instead and still allow the control to exist without the ability to shut off enemy player defensive stats. Secondly because of animation limitations prones cannot be any shorter than .66 seconds. Given this we wanted to allow CC resist to work correctly in more cases, and therefore we wanted prones to be generally saved either for more powerful spells (like several dailies) or for powers that require substantially more skill to land (like Shard of the Eternal Avalanche). These changes should improve the feel of CC Resistance and make it behave more uniformly in all situations.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks for the Updates Crush...
I'll need to test the 2 Second Prone and see if it's enough to reliably land GWF encounters such as Indomitable Battle Strike, but as always appreciate the feed back and the hands on approach! :cool:
all changes for GWF class General Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized. Sprint:Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive. (finally GWF sprint useful rather than use for running away) Powers Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list. Roar:This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity.Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.(still have problem why is roar nerfed to not make players root, the only problem with roar was being able to pass through CC immunity) Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 10~20%(up from 5~10%) damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%) Takedown:This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.This power now deals ~30% less damage.Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).(u r making players choose between destroyer and swordmaster, then why r u decreasing damage , which will make GWF not able to damage not more than 1k or so after going through there DR and if deflected it goes to like 500 or so , while HR deals like 7k+ dmg with there encounter while GWF damages are being nerfed) Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge:This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.This power now deals ~35% less damage.Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).(same as above) Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds. This power now deals ~35% less damage.(same as above) Swordmaster: Weaponmaster's Strike:This power now deals ~10% more damage. SwordmasterFlourish:This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).[ now player will have hard choice to make whether to use swordmaster or IV] Feats Sentinel's Aegis:This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects. Intimidation: [/B]Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%). Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%). Master At Arms:Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
COLOR RED: still have problems BLUE: not much care (passable) GREEN: happy for the changes yellow: problems.
the whole problem with u guys is u think GWF do more damages but u still forget the damage buff is coming from destroyer purpose and base damage for all PVP base toons are really low , in pvp a well made pvp toon when go against a well made pvp toon of any class it does no more damage than 2k-5k based on destroyer purpose stack and critical strike. after the changes gwf will choose sentinel , and there damage will obviously decrease which will make them nothing more than stand ins at the cap till other class comes and help them.
the 2 sec prone u giving is nothing to us , the prone u provide does not stack for gwf like CW has , the duration provide by prones is basic 2 sec which after passing through tenacity will give duration of 1.36sec (counting that other player is PVP toon which has 900 tenacity (20% CC resitant)) and additional CC resistance will be added from artifacts and the ability points , which will further decrease there duration .:(
I agree that prones shouldn't be easy to do, it's a very incapacitating move, the ONLY prone TRS have for instance is a daily, and just for WK. I agree in PVP they should be left for more special moves.
I would like to question the wisdom behind the proposed changes to the class. I am a low level GWF trying to play through normal content with just a companion, as the game prescibed. Looking over the changes,the described changes will severly cripple, if not break the class during pre-endgame progression.
What you have done is gutted the core characteristics of the base class, shifting the balance onto paragon feats, endgame gear, and advanced module boons to plug the holes. This may be all well and fine at the end of the road, when you're crunching the numbers of the upper limits of what a GWF can acomplish, but what about everyone who still has to play the class from level 10-50? With no real "dodge" mechanic, the core class is reliant on the damage mitigation of Unstoppable. This becomes even more vital with the intended nerfs to the damage of early encounter powers.
I will no longer be able to use Unstoppable to "face-tank" incoming damage, nor will I be able to quickly dispose of an enemy damaging me. Please do test your ideas on some mid level content like the Sanatorium quest at Helm's Hold at level 34, with the proposed changes in effect.
If the main motivation is the problem of builds that couple of the damage boost from the Destroyer's capstone feat and Unstoppable's damage mitigation, I have a suggestion for you. Instead of forcing everyone to take the Sentinel's capstone to achieve the class's initial survivability, why not just put an addition into the Destroyer's capstone that decreases it?
It can be something as straight forward as "decrease effectivness of Unstoppable's mitigation by 250%", or something more creative like "each stack of Destroyer's Purpose also decreases the damage mitigation of Unstoppable by 1.5%". This way you achieve the same outcome at maximum potential, but leave all the pre-endgame GWFs alone.
Do you plan to eliminate the cooldown on potions, so that I can spam them continually? Or is there a "ranged" paragon path that lets us throw our swords like boomerangs and stay out of melee range? That would be cool too.
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
[SNIP]
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I assume you have thought of this, but it wasn't mentioned so I'm mentioning it --
Is the Sentinel capstone going to be adjusted with this to 2.5X unstoppable, or is it staying at 5x for a total 50~100% reduction? I'd assume it is being adjusted to 2.5X.
- B
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Still no one mentioning,Isn't it Come And Get it and Daring Shout?Or it's Not So Fast as intended.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
I still find the DR still a bit too low for unstoppable. 15-30% would have been more perferrable.
Hey all! I wanted to drop in and let you know about a handful more changes to GWFs (mostly to Sentinels) that should be in the next patch. It is looking like the new patch with all the changes that have been talked about are hitting this week barring anything going wrong.
We wanted to look at Sentinel's place as tanks and improve that behavior while returning a little more survivability to Unstoppable as a whole. We felt that improving threat generation on some Sentinel feats as well as making them slightly more desirable for tanks would go a long way to helping out their role. As such we are making the following changes.
Powers
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
Feats
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Very much appreciated. As a destroyer, I could probably take this nerfed version of Unstoppable, assuming the Sprint changes stay in place (although will test this further, once changes are implemented to ensure that this is still viable- lower GS and sub-60 GWFs will still find it hard). Will Sentinel's capstone feat damage resistcance multiplier to Unstoppable be adjusted accordingly? (I hope I am not missing something)
Also, I have read the clarification/reasons for changing prones to stuns in PvP. I am interpreting this as a programming challenge (to introduce deflect while prone or reducing the animation times of prones). So my question here is, will this workaround (prone to stun) be temporary, until you figure a more appropriate workaround. I can relate to the frustration of PvP GWFs that the stun may be of insufficient duration (even with the proposed increased durations) to be useful (for follow-up with IBS, etc.), when tenacity takes effect. Kindly suggest.
And once again, quite glad that you are absorbing all this feedback and adjusting the changes accordingly. Thank you.
I agree that prones shouldn't be easy to do, it's a very incapacitating move, the ONLY prone TRS have for instance is a daily, and just for WK. I agree in PVP they should be left for more special moves.
TR HAVE PERMA STEALTH WHICH IS STILL NOT GETTING NERFED ,HR HAVE ROOTS(annoying as hell) , WHILE GWF DETERMINATION , PRONES IS NERFED , what say u about that.
Hey all, I wanted to drop by and share another set of changes we are making as well as some of the rationale behind the prone changes.
First things first, here are the incoming changes.
Guardian Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Second, I want to talk about Prone and why we are shifting some of the prones away from PVP, but not all of them. Prone has a special interaction with Deflect in that while someone has you Prone you cannot deflect any incoming attacks. While we do like this interaction in PVE, changing the behavior from PVP to PVE felt awkward and confusing for users so we decided to convert these to stuns instead and still allow the control to exist without the ability to shut off enemy player defensive stats. Secondly because of animation limitations prones cannot be any shorter than .66 seconds. Given this we wanted to allow CC resist to work correctly in more cases, and therefore we wanted prones to be generally saved either for more powerful spells (like several dailies) or for powers that require substantially more skill to land (like Shard of the Eternal Avalanche). These changes should improve the feel of CC Resistance and make it behave more uniformly in all situations.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks for this change Crush. This was very much needed.
I still have a problem with such a weak unstoppable - even with Sprint.
PROBLEM: Determination gain is based on damage received. Even though Sprint gives DR and CC Immunity, when a GWF uses Sprint, they are building LESS determination.
So the PROBLEM is the extra DR HINDERS determination gain even though it will "seem" like it balances it out, it really doesnt since it just means we still have to take the same amount of damage to use unstoppable. Also sprint has MUCH less "uptime" than unstoppable in the total view of a fight, and sprint is needed as a gap closer, not a defensive tool.
Its just really wack....
SOLUTION: Make Unstoppable 15-30% DR, drop the DR on sprint either to the 10-15% range OR remove it altogether and keep the CC immunity frames - the cc immunity basically makes it "on par" with other classes "dodges" however Sprint STILL doesnt mitigate 100% of damage.
TR HAVE PERMA STEALTH WHICH IS STILL NOT GETTING NERFED ,HR HAVE ROOTS(annoying as hell) , WHILE GWF DETERMINATION , PRONES IS NERFED , what say u about that.
I say this is a GWF thread, not a TR thread, and that your grammatical use of capital letters is elementary at best... :cool:
I say this is a GWF thread, not a TR thread, and that your grammatical use of capital letters is elementary at best... :cool:
This is not just the GWF thread... THIS IS SPARTA !!
With that out of my system, I predict that after the new changes hit Preview a bunch of CWs will come to the forum and complain that the GWF can sprint to them and stun/kill them while they are absolutely unable to do anything and that is without even going unstoppable..
I agree that Unstoppable is much, much weaker but geared Destroyers are by no means squishy on Preview and with CC immunity while Sprinting we will be quite a force. Now, if sprint can also break out of CC..
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Disclaimer: The following is based on a few assumptions (based on information available at the time of posting)
Disclaimer: The following is mostly focused on PvE, though some PvP issues will be addressed. The majority of what is discussed does not effect pvp anyways, so this is mostly a non-issue.
Assumption #1: The content of mod 4 will require tanks (and/or healers) or at very least make having them very beneficial to the group.
Assumption #2: When looking at the changes being made, the devs seem to be trying to make sentinel GWF a viable tank.
So, the best place to start here is to define what a "tank" is. The term gets thrown around quite a lot, but what does it actually mean? What is a tank, what is their role in the party, what do they bring to the table, and what are their strengths and weaknesses?
What is a tank?
Simply put, the tank is the one who takes the majority of the damage in an encounter. They should be the first one into the fight, and in the thick of the battle the whole time. The tank leads the pull, the dps and healers follow.
What is the role of a tank?
The role of a tank can be divided into 3 main parts: aggro, control, and the ability to take a lot of damage.
- Aggro: any tank should be able to get and hold aggro reliably.This can be done through all kinds of mechanics, but the end result is the same. The enemies should be attacking the tank. A good tank should be able to get aggro off of other party members, and hold it once they have it.
- Control: the tank needs to be able to handle aggro once they have it. This can be done through all sorts of methods, but once they have aggro, a tank needs to be able to do something with it. A common utility here is the ability to position the target so that it is advantageous to the group (i.e. facing a boss away from the other party members or kiting adds, or in the case of trash, grouping mobs together so they are easier for the dps to kill). What should NOT be happening is that the tank is running around like a chicken with their head cut off because they got all the aggro but have no way to deal with it.
- Damage: A tank needs to be able to take hits. This does not always mean they need to have a ton of damage reduction or hit points, but they need SOME way to soak up the damage they will be taking. Some mechanic is needed to allow the tank to take hits.
What does a tank bring to the party?
The tank should make everyone else's job easier. The tank should dictate the terms of battle. DPS should benefit from a tank because they have to dodge less and take less damage. Healers should benefit from a tank by the tank being the one taking most of the damage, so their healing job is easier, as they can focus on healing the tank. A tank should also bring some additional utility to the table, which could be some dps, buffs, debuffs, or even some heals.
Strengths and Weaknesses
Strengths:
- Can take lots of damage
- Can get and hold aggro
- Can control targets
- Mobile (A tank needs to be able to get to the targets. This is especially important because tanks are almost always melee fighters, and as such need to be right in the enemies face to do their job. Reliable gap closing ability is a must)
Weaknesses:
- lower damage output than dps
- usually require healing of some sort due to high damage intake
- requires a high degree of skill to play well.
Ok, so now that we have looked at what a tank is, how does a sentinel GWF look based on this?
Aggro: pretty much all of sent's aggro generation (other than damage output, which is sub-par) relies on feats, which then require certain skills to be used. The recent changes do seem to be working on improving this, but overall sent does not have amazing aggro generation.
Control: GWF has some fairly good control abilities, in the form of prones, slows, interrupts, or movement (come and get it) So, sent looks ok on this front.
Ability to take damage: generally GWF has high HP and good armor/mitigation, and with the sent capstone, this is even better. Unstoppable greatly increases this, as well as providing temp HP and some healing (if feated). Above average here, but could use some improvement, especially when it comes to soloing, as life steal is not very effective due to low damage. A possible solution here could be to buff restoring strike.
Mobility: Iron Vanguard has a huge advantage here, as threatening rush is great for mobility. Sprint is very limited, and punishing charge/mighty leap are usually not worth slotting when we are limited to only 3 encounters. However, even IV is below average with the cooldown and limited charges on rush. One of the biggest problems with tanking as a GWF right now is that by the time we get to the mobs, the ranged dps have already grabbed everything, and without a hard taunt or lots of burst damage, it is very difficult to get back. I find it actually easier to get aggro back with burst damage as a destroyer than any sent threat generating feat.
So, now for the feedback on the upcoming changes:
1) A big problem is what will happen when you have both GF and GWF in a party. Anyone who has ever tried a 2 GF run will know exactly what I am talking about here. However, GWF is at a severe disadvantage here. First, they have no way to "turn off" their aggro generation, since it is pretty much all based on feats. A GF can simply unslot enhanced mark and will have much less aggro gen. This also becomes a problem for dps GWFs because they will also be taking aggro from tanks with the changes to how mark works. So, are we supposed to choose to either take a GF or a GWF in a party? There seems to be a very big synergy issue here.
2) Another big problem is that with the increased aggro gen, we don't really seem to be getting any better tools to deal with it. Great, we can get all the mobs attention, now what?
Hopefully I will be able to expand on this and post more feedback after the next patch on preview.
Thanks for listening,
-Misa
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
I would say lower the DR on run to 5% + 5% on deflect (this is based on "GWFs are running, is logic to think they are a bit harder to target" idea) , make a feat to give both stats to +10% or, as i said on my previous post, give up to +50% to deflect while running with Nimble Runner Inquisitor feat.
Yeah I just dont understand the full logic behind their changes...
They nerf unstoppable so GWFs are not as tanky(which honestly isnt needed as Unstoppable wasnt what was wrong with GWFs), then buff sprint because they toned unstoppable back too much, then STILL had to bring back unstoppable some, but the end result is that its really going to hurt GWFs in pvp.
Why this doesnt make sense to me is this:
GWFs can sprint for like 4 seconds but can only cover the distance of maybe 1-2 "teleports" of a CW, or a FEW short dodges from an HR.
The issue with that is both those classes can use their dodges 5-6+ times in a row. HRs have some OP feat that ive SEEN an HR dodge 16 times in a row without stopping, and ive SEEN CWs able to do 6-8 in a row as well (I dont know how or why but I also dont care to know how or why).
because a good CW/HR will just wati for you to stop sprinting, then CC you. They will wait to attack till your out and on LIVE this would be an issue because unstoppable is so beefy, but now its honestly just a joke. Even 10% more DR isnt really all that much (from 40 to 50% DR).
I mean HRs can get in the high 40s in DR, have 40% deflect AND have almost infinite dodges.
Also the other thing I dont get is now Sprint HAS to be used defensively instead of offensively. While your IN unstoppable you used to have to sprint towards targets to even catch them, so if you wasted it all getting TO the target, GG, or if you waste it all IN unstoppable TO get to the target GG because your SO vulnerable outside it.
If your gonna do this change and make GWFs rely more on Sprint, something needs to be done either about the "duration" or sprint or their recharge rate. With taking away "control" from the GWF, now taking away their offensive gap closers (sprint/threat rush) it wont matter if they cant be CCd because they can just be nuked down or dodged long enough TO CC/nuke you.
Even on LIVE ive met some pretty good CWs who just CC/prone you outside unstoppable and will literally get your HP below 50% in one combo, then they blink around while you chase them IN unstoppable USING sprint USING Threat Rush Spam and USING prones.
The only thing that allowed us to even have a chance to catch and land attacks on CWs was Roar or Frontline Surge. Followed by takedown then IBS. With roar gone, and FLS and Takedown doing MUCH less "stun" its going to be VERY difficult to catch a CW to land attacks on them.
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Still no one mentioning,Isn't it Come And Get it and Daring Shout?Or it's Not So Fast as intended.
It is Come and Get It. I typed the wrong name in Ill make sure the post and patch notes are corrected when they go up.
Make takedown a prone at least. I understand the issues, but having at least one wouldn't be OP. Also... its called takedown? How is it takedown if nothing goes down?
I say this is a GWF thread, not a TR thread, and that your grammatical use of capital letters is elementary at best... :cool:
says the guy who didnt read previous post from TR and cant read past single line, capital letters is shown to make it seem important which u clearly cant seem to understand
Make takedown a prone at least. I understand the issues, but having at least one wouldn't be OP. Also... its called takedown? How is it takedown if nothing goes down?
Prone is being eliminated to permit a target to still deflect your attacks while it's affected by the CC. (PvP motivated)
If you think about it, it kind of makes sense, given that they're also nerfing the damage by 30%. Now that you're not hitting them as hard, they aren't being dealt enough force to be knocked down. :P
I really understand these changes on GWF class but, the 2 main points are, as you and me said at mid of this thread, is due 18/19k GWF are teamed vs 8-10k players, and, instead of making a REAL balancing system on PvP (programing it from scratch), they just went to the "easy way": nerf classes. That is the reason (but is not the only one, i know few more reasons) i know devs dont listen to us, GWF players, when we are totally guiding them into how to balance our own class based on our own experience.
Yes this really hit the nail on the head.
Having 2 HIGH elo players with 16k+ GS getting matched with LOW GS players for "even teams" is NOT the way this should be done, all that ends up happeneing is the 16k GS players stomp all over the new players and then get frustrated when THEIR new players cant do anything because they dont understand to fight on nodes....
Its a MASSIVE lose-lose system where High elo players lose from bad teammates and low elo players have no fun going 1-30 in a match - even if they win...
Oh and did I mention all those guys who go 1-30 come here to whine about "WTF GWF KILLED ME" "NERF TAKEDOWN WTF" when they have no idea WHY they were hit so hard...
Having 2 HIGH elo players with 16k+ GS getting matched with LOW GS players for "even teams" is NOT the way this should be done, all that ends up happeneing is the 16k GS players stomp all over the new players and then get frustrated when THEIR new players cant do anything because they dont understand to fight on nodes....
Its a MASSIVE lose-lose system where High elo players lose from bad teammates and low elo players have no fun going 1-30 in a match - even if they win...
Oh and did I mention all those guys who go 1-30 come here to whine about "WTF GWF KILLED ME" "NERF TAKEDOWN WTF" when they have no idea WHY they were hit so hard...
Maybe they are going to start turning new areas into open PvP zones? With more factional siding and aligning with different organizations representing different dragons. I'm guessing Tyranny of Dragons, means there will be more than one dragon vying for power/control.
Comments
Battle Trample is a paragon path feat, so changing it would not allow it for all sentinels to have it. But i agree with you. So many effects on ONE passive is silly.
PROBLEM: GWFs Cant Land any attacks in PVP because they have no prones or adequate stuns to do so. Any competent player (DC/CW/TR/HR) can easily shift dodge faster than your animation on IBS. Not even a takedown stun or frontline stun keeps them in place long enough for IBS to take effect.
FEEDBACK: significantly increase stun duration or bring back the Prone!
First things first, here are the incoming changes.
Guardian Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Second, I want to talk about Prone and why we are shifting some of the prones away from PVP, but not all of them. Prone has a special interaction with Deflect in that while someone has you Prone you cannot deflect any incoming attacks. While we do like this interaction in PVE, changing the behavior from PVP to PVE felt awkward and confusing for users so we decided to convert these to stuns instead and still allow the control to exist without the ability to shut off enemy player defensive stats. Secondly because of animation limitations prones cannot be any shorter than .66 seconds. Given this we wanted to allow CC resist to work correctly in more cases, and therefore we wanted prones to be generally saved either for more powerful spells (like several dailies) or for powers that require substantially more skill to land (like Shard of the Eternal Avalanche). These changes should improve the feel of CC Resistance and make it behave more uniformly in all situations.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I'll need to test the 2 Second Prone and see if it's enough to reliably land GWF encounters such as Indomitable Battle Strike, but as always appreciate the feed back and the hands on approach! :cool:
General
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive. (finally GWF sprint useful rather than use for running away)
Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.(still have problem why is roar nerfed to not make players root, the only problem with roar was being able to pass through CC immunity)
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 10~20%(up from 5~10%) damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.This power now deals ~30% less damage.Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).(u r making players choose between destroyer and swordmaster, then why r u decreasing damage , which will make GWF not able to damage not more than 1k or so after going through there DR and if deflected it goes to like 500 or so , while HR deals like 7k+ dmg with there encounter while GWF damages are being nerfed)
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.This power now deals ~35% less damage.Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).(same as above)
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds. This power now deals ~35% less damage.(same as above)
Swordmaster: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
SwordmasterFlourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).[ now player will have hard choice to make whether to use swordmaster or IV]
Feats
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
Intimidation: [/B]Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
COLOR
RED: still have problems
BLUE: not much care (passable)
GREEN: happy for the changes
yellow: problems.
the whole problem with u guys is u think GWF do more damages but u still forget the damage buff is coming from destroyer purpose and base damage for all PVP base toons are really low , in pvp a well made pvp toon when go against a well made pvp toon of any class it does no more damage than 2k-5k based on destroyer purpose stack and critical strike. after the changes gwf will choose sentinel , and there damage will obviously decrease which will make them nothing more than stand ins at the cap till other class comes and help them.
the 2 sec prone u giving is nothing to us , the prone u provide does not stack for gwf like CW has , the duration provide by prones is basic 2 sec which after passing through tenacity will give duration of 1.36sec (counting that other player is PVP toon which has 900 tenacity (20% CC resitant)) and additional CC resistance will be added from artifacts and the ability points , which will further decrease there duration .:(
I would like to question the wisdom behind the proposed changes to the class. I am a low level GWF trying to play through normal content with just a companion, as the game prescibed. Looking over the changes,the described changes will severly cripple, if not break the class during pre-endgame progression.
What you have done is gutted the core characteristics of the base class, shifting the balance onto paragon feats, endgame gear, and advanced module boons to plug the holes. This may be all well and fine at the end of the road, when you're crunching the numbers of the upper limits of what a GWF can acomplish, but what about everyone who still has to play the class from level 10-50? With no real "dodge" mechanic, the core class is reliant on the damage mitigation of Unstoppable. This becomes even more vital with the intended nerfs to the damage of early encounter powers.
I will no longer be able to use Unstoppable to "face-tank" incoming damage, nor will I be able to quickly dispose of an enemy damaging me. Please do test your ideas on some mid level content like the Sanatorium quest at Helm's Hold at level 34, with the proposed changes in effect.
If the main motivation is the problem of builds that couple of the damage boost from the Destroyer's capstone feat and Unstoppable's damage mitigation, I have a suggestion for you. Instead of forcing everyone to take the Sentinel's capstone to achieve the class's initial survivability, why not just put an addition into the Destroyer's capstone that decreases it?
It can be something as straight forward as "decrease effectivness of Unstoppable's mitigation by 250%", or something more creative like "each stack of Destroyer's Purpose also decreases the damage mitigation of Unstoppable by 1.5%". This way you achieve the same outcome at maximum potential, but leave all the pre-endgame GWFs alone.
Do you plan to eliminate the cooldown on potions, so that I can spam them continually? Or is there a "ranged" paragon path that lets us throw our swords like boomerangs and stay out of melee range? That would be cool too.
I assume you have thought of this, but it wasn't mentioned so I'm mentioning it --
Is the Sentinel capstone going to be adjusted with this to 2.5X unstoppable, or is it staying at 5x for a total 50~100% reduction? I'd assume it is being adjusted to 2.5X.
- B
Still no one mentioning,Isn't it Come And Get it and Daring Shout?Or it's Not So Fast as intended.
Very much appreciated. As a destroyer, I could probably take this nerfed version of Unstoppable, assuming the Sprint changes stay in place (although will test this further, once changes are implemented to ensure that this is still viable- lower GS and sub-60 GWFs will still find it hard). Will Sentinel's capstone feat damage resistcance multiplier to Unstoppable be adjusted accordingly? (I hope I am not missing something)
Also, I have read the clarification/reasons for changing prones to stuns in PvP. I am interpreting this as a programming challenge (to introduce deflect while prone or reducing the animation times of prones). So my question here is, will this workaround (prone to stun) be temporary, until you figure a more appropriate workaround. I can relate to the frustration of PvP GWFs that the stun may be of insufficient duration (even with the proposed increased durations) to be useful (for follow-up with IBS, etc.), when tenacity takes effect. Kindly suggest.
And once again, quite glad that you are absorbing all this feedback and adjusting the changes accordingly. Thank you.
Thanks for this change Crush. This was very much needed.
I still have a problem with such a weak unstoppable - even with Sprint.
PROBLEM: Determination gain is based on damage received. Even though Sprint gives DR and CC Immunity, when a GWF uses Sprint, they are building LESS determination.
So the PROBLEM is the extra DR HINDERS determination gain even though it will "seem" like it balances it out, it really doesnt since it just means we still have to take the same amount of damage to use unstoppable. Also sprint has MUCH less "uptime" than unstoppable in the total view of a fight, and sprint is needed as a gap closer, not a defensive tool.
Its just really wack....
SOLUTION: Make Unstoppable 15-30% DR, drop the DR on sprint either to the 10-15% range OR remove it altogether and keep the CC immunity frames - the cc immunity basically makes it "on par" with other classes "dodges" however Sprint STILL doesnt mitigate 100% of damage.
This is not just the GWF thread... THIS IS SPARTA !!
With that out of my system, I predict that after the new changes hit Preview a bunch of CWs will come to the forum and complain that the GWF can sprint to them and stun/kill them while they are absolutely unable to do anything and that is without even going unstoppable..
I agree that Unstoppable is much, much weaker but geared Destroyers are by no means squishy on Preview and with CC immunity while Sprinting we will be quite a force. Now, if sprint can also break out of CC..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Disclaimer: The following is mostly focused on PvE, though some PvP issues will be addressed. The majority of what is discussed does not effect pvp anyways, so this is mostly a non-issue.
Assumption #1: The content of mod 4 will require tanks (and/or healers) or at very least make having them very beneficial to the group.
Assumption #2: When looking at the changes being made, the devs seem to be trying to make sentinel GWF a viable tank.
So, the best place to start here is to define what a "tank" is. The term gets thrown around quite a lot, but what does it actually mean? What is a tank, what is their role in the party, what do they bring to the table, and what are their strengths and weaknesses?
What is a tank?
Simply put, the tank is the one who takes the majority of the damage in an encounter. They should be the first one into the fight, and in the thick of the battle the whole time. The tank leads the pull, the dps and healers follow.
What is the role of a tank?
The role of a tank can be divided into 3 main parts: aggro, control, and the ability to take a lot of damage.
- Aggro: any tank should be able to get and hold aggro reliably.This can be done through all kinds of mechanics, but the end result is the same. The enemies should be attacking the tank. A good tank should be able to get aggro off of other party members, and hold it once they have it.
- Control: the tank needs to be able to handle aggro once they have it. This can be done through all sorts of methods, but once they have aggro, a tank needs to be able to do something with it. A common utility here is the ability to position the target so that it is advantageous to the group (i.e. facing a boss away from the other party members or kiting adds, or in the case of trash, grouping mobs together so they are easier for the dps to kill). What should NOT be happening is that the tank is running around like a chicken with their head cut off because they got all the aggro but have no way to deal with it.
- Damage: A tank needs to be able to take hits. This does not always mean they need to have a ton of damage reduction or hit points, but they need SOME way to soak up the damage they will be taking. Some mechanic is needed to allow the tank to take hits.
What does a tank bring to the party?
The tank should make everyone else's job easier. The tank should dictate the terms of battle. DPS should benefit from a tank because they have to dodge less and take less damage. Healers should benefit from a tank by the tank being the one taking most of the damage, so their healing job is easier, as they can focus on healing the tank. A tank should also bring some additional utility to the table, which could be some dps, buffs, debuffs, or even some heals.
Strengths and Weaknesses
Strengths:
- Can take lots of damage
- Can get and hold aggro
- Can control targets
- Mobile (A tank needs to be able to get to the targets. This is especially important because tanks are almost always melee fighters, and as such need to be right in the enemies face to do their job. Reliable gap closing ability is a must)
Weaknesses:
- lower damage output than dps
- usually require healing of some sort due to high damage intake
- requires a high degree of skill to play well.
Ok, so now that we have looked at what a tank is, how does a sentinel GWF look based on this?
Aggro: pretty much all of sent's aggro generation (other than damage output, which is sub-par) relies on feats, which then require certain skills to be used. The recent changes do seem to be working on improving this, but overall sent does not have amazing aggro generation.
Control: GWF has some fairly good control abilities, in the form of prones, slows, interrupts, or movement (come and get it) So, sent looks ok on this front.
Ability to take damage: generally GWF has high HP and good armor/mitigation, and with the sent capstone, this is even better. Unstoppable greatly increases this, as well as providing temp HP and some healing (if feated). Above average here, but could use some improvement, especially when it comes to soloing, as life steal is not very effective due to low damage. A possible solution here could be to buff restoring strike.
Mobility: Iron Vanguard has a huge advantage here, as threatening rush is great for mobility. Sprint is very limited, and punishing charge/mighty leap are usually not worth slotting when we are limited to only 3 encounters. However, even IV is below average with the cooldown and limited charges on rush. One of the biggest problems with tanking as a GWF right now is that by the time we get to the mobs, the ranged dps have already grabbed everything, and without a hard taunt or lots of burst damage, it is very difficult to get back. I find it actually easier to get aggro back with burst damage as a destroyer than any sent threat generating feat.
So, now for the feedback on the upcoming changes:
1) A big problem is what will happen when you have both GF and GWF in a party. Anyone who has ever tried a 2 GF run will know exactly what I am talking about here. However, GWF is at a severe disadvantage here. First, they have no way to "turn off" their aggro generation, since it is pretty much all based on feats. A GF can simply unslot enhanced mark and will have much less aggro gen. This also becomes a problem for dps GWFs because they will also be taking aggro from tanks with the changes to how mark works. So, are we supposed to choose to either take a GF or a GWF in a party? There seems to be a very big synergy issue here.
2) Another big problem is that with the increased aggro gen, we don't really seem to be getting any better tools to deal with it. Great, we can get all the mobs attention, now what?
Hopefully I will be able to expand on this and post more feedback after the next patch on preview.
Thanks for listening,
-Misa
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Yeah I just dont understand the full logic behind their changes...
They nerf unstoppable so GWFs are not as tanky(which honestly isnt needed as Unstoppable wasnt what was wrong with GWFs), then buff sprint because they toned unstoppable back too much, then STILL had to bring back unstoppable some, but the end result is that its really going to hurt GWFs in pvp.
Why this doesnt make sense to me is this:
GWFs can sprint for like 4 seconds but can only cover the distance of maybe 1-2 "teleports" of a CW, or a FEW short dodges from an HR.
The issue with that is both those classes can use their dodges 5-6+ times in a row. HRs have some OP feat that ive SEEN an HR dodge 16 times in a row without stopping, and ive SEEN CWs able to do 6-8 in a row as well (I dont know how or why but I also dont care to know how or why).
because a good CW/HR will just wati for you to stop sprinting, then CC you. They will wait to attack till your out and on LIVE this would be an issue because unstoppable is so beefy, but now its honestly just a joke. Even 10% more DR isnt really all that much (from 40 to 50% DR).
I mean HRs can get in the high 40s in DR, have 40% deflect AND have almost infinite dodges.
Also the other thing I dont get is now Sprint HAS to be used defensively instead of offensively. While your IN unstoppable you used to have to sprint towards targets to even catch them, so if you wasted it all getting TO the target, GG, or if you waste it all IN unstoppable TO get to the target GG because your SO vulnerable outside it.
If your gonna do this change and make GWFs rely more on Sprint, something needs to be done either about the "duration" or sprint or their recharge rate. With taking away "control" from the GWF, now taking away their offensive gap closers (sprint/threat rush) it wont matter if they cant be CCd because they can just be nuked down or dodged long enough TO CC/nuke you.
Even on LIVE ive met some pretty good CWs who just CC/prone you outside unstoppable and will literally get your HP below 50% in one combo, then they blink around while you chase them IN unstoppable USING sprint USING Threat Rush Spam and USING prones.
The only thing that allowed us to even have a chance to catch and land attacks on CWs was Roar or Frontline Surge. Followed by takedown then IBS. With roar gone, and FLS and Takedown doing MUCH less "stun" its going to be VERY difficult to catch a CW to land attacks on them.
It is Come and Get It. I typed the wrong name in
Prone is being eliminated to permit a target to still deflect your attacks while it's affected by the CC. (PvP motivated)
If you think about it, it kind of makes sense, given that they're also nerfing the damage by 30%. Now that you're not hitting them as hard, they aren't being dealt enough force to be knocked down. :P
Yes this really hit the nail on the head.
Having 2 HIGH elo players with 16k+ GS getting matched with LOW GS players for "even teams" is NOT the way this should be done, all that ends up happeneing is the 16k GS players stomp all over the new players and then get frustrated when THEIR new players cant do anything because they dont understand to fight on nodes....
Its a MASSIVE lose-lose system where High elo players lose from bad teammates and low elo players have no fun going 1-30 in a match - even if they win...
Oh and did I mention all those guys who go 1-30 come here to whine about "WTF GWF KILLED ME" "NERF TAKEDOWN WTF" when they have no idea WHY they were hit so hard...
Maybe they are going to start turning new areas into open PvP zones? With more factional siding and aligning with different organizations representing different dragons. I'm guessing Tyranny of Dragons, means there will be more than one dragon vying for power/control.