On PTR sent spec are still very tanky. You can tell damage has been nerfed however they still hit hard. Without the prones the GWF has to play better in order to land the big hits. Make for more exciting matches. Taking away the prones really makes you have to be careful with encounters but I think this makes it more fair. Can't just run in and prone/roar and auto land your big hit. Def no more 1 rotation kills unless against really undergeared players though.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited June 2014
Well I like the concept of making Sentinel GWFs tanks and Destroer GWFS DPS.
The nerf to Unstoppable has just gone too far. I remember what GWFs where like back in Mod 1 when Unstoppable did not even grant Temp HP and had the 25-50% damage reduction only. And Back then GWF dropped like flies. Now They will die even faster. A dead GWF does no damage and is not wanted in any group.
Unstoppable needs to be 15-30% damage reduction at least. And even with that Sprint needs to be buffed to be on par with other classes shift powers. While granting dodge for the full length of a sprint may be a bit much but granting a Huge bonus to deflection and defeltion severity would be a step in the right direction. And by Huge I mean +100% deflection chance and +25-50% deflection severity.
Until then it is time to retire my GWF I did enjoy playing for the brief period it was useful But I Tried to play in pre mod 2 and gave up and GWF is obivous going that route. And yes I have done alot of test on previre server. I might just start playing HR. But I still think my CW main will hold it's own with these nerfs. Since GWF its only competitor is completely dead now.
Sentinels are more tanky, GFs are more tanky... If not well geared destroyer is squishy on live and even more squishy on preview. We need unstoppable with DR for keeping DPS at some level. I refuse to be senti "dummy". My role is aoe dps same as cw. And they took it from both classes. But CW still has his range... Well, we tested CN and have watched many deaths on my destro GWF. I started with IV destro but using skills like punishing charge to avoid red areas = small dps, then tested SM with instigator tree, same punishing, roar/flourish, ibs = no real dps, more squishy than IV. Finally, i got nice pt and run IV destro again [fls, restoring strike, ibs]. We fought with draco to half his hp and wiped (4 man, one leave before 3rd boss). Maybe coz i had to avoid mobs (singu doesnt help as much as before), draco moving made mess. Summarizing: even if GWF put PvP gear for draco fight he still cant properly facetank boss when mobs running around coz CWs (3 man) have hard time to cc/dps mobs and keeping them in one place with singu. They need more dps same as GWFs their DR. What is thauma without dps and what is destro without REAL unstoppable? Same as at beggining of my post, senti and GF are more tanky than destro on live server. When some GWF destro soloing dungeon he has big gs, r9-r10, legandary artifacts (emblemat keep him alive). And he doing this coz now we have some synergy between dps and survivality and mod4 will take it form us. No survivality for melee class fighting 1st line = no real dps. GWF sentinel and GF are tankers, not damage dealers and they stay alive coz tankiness, i stay alive coz i kill mobs ataking me before unstoppable ends.
Summarizing: even if GWF put PvP gear for draco fight he still cant properly facetank boss when mobs running around coz CWs (3 man) have hard time to cc/dps mobs and keeping them in one place with singu. They need more dps same as GWFs their DR.
This means that things are starting to go in the right direction! Stacking CWs and GWFs no longer pays off
Nope, few runs with rainbow party brings more deaths than runs with 3 cws and hr. So yeah, with mod4 it will be a little harder but CWs or GWFs still should be stackable. Like i said in GF feedback, its still not enough to take GF coz GF will die soon after taunt there. Imagine it on1st pack of mobs in CN... CW still have his range and stun 20 mobs which is better than taunt and instant death.
GWF have potential, i have played him before mod2 and i will play afer mod4. They can nerf us we will back and handle it like a man, not "we need more love" puppies.
Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't calling an "At-Will" that you can only use sometimes contradicting itself?
Basically now a fourth encounter? (With reduced damage)
I don't really understand the reasoning of increasing the effect of the power stat, then down the line having to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all skills to do reduced damage. Change power? That would be something.
Now npc monsters with power, blademasters in ToS, for example. Can take down a well geared gwf while unstoppable. So now that things hit harder we are getting LESS damage resistance?
More and more npc abilities are knocking me around, or just plain ignoring unstoppable's CC portion of resistance. Find my self running around dodging and chugging potions. So I am having a hard time finding what is so overpowered. If it is a balance in pvp is it out of the question to "While Flagged For PvP" -insert balance mechanic here-
Nerfing CW's and GWF's is WRONG (and my main is/was a GF). So people with 15k GS on CW/GWF run through CN too easy. Well duh, they have 5k gs more than than it was designed for. The problem is the other classes SUCK in comparison. Like electricpanties says, they are the fun classes (cw/gwf). Maybe that should TELL YOU SOMETHING. They are the ones that are right, the other classes are not. Buff the other classes, so at 14-15k, anyone can run thru CN, because you are 50% overgeared, you should be able to run through it.
People worry about power creep. If all the classes are on par with GWF/CW that is NOT power creep, that is balance. Lowering the GWF/CW to the other classes... the other classes are underpowered. Why would you add an expansion, and in the expansion you come out weaker than you were before. What sense does that make?
All that said, I am sure some nerfing/tweaking can be done. Maybe the CW changes are spot on, making them still powerful, but not insane. But if you nerf them to the level of a TR, or GF, or DC... now everybody sucks, no matter what class you are.
Its not just that CW/GWF are overpowered, the rest are gimped. If it was just that, you would see rainbow parties of 12k toons doing CN. ya it would be rough, but possible. I don't think it is. You dont see that, do you? Because, in order to do it effectively, you need the "OP" classes. If they are the ones that can do it, are they really OP?
Again, don't come back to me saying "its possible with x-y-z class", or "it could be done". We are talking about reasonably being able to do it.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited June 2014
I dont get the hole nerf in this modul .
The HR can facetank 6-10 ppl minimum 4 min and even kill some of them VS 6 ppl he can even kill all of them .
And what they got buffed to be a god i tested it my self, 20% ls from a single encounter i got back 8k hp cut it in half 4 k hp in pvp . I can show y some vid but its forbidden to do it.
So i dont get it why we cant have at least 1 prone ?
Somday i wish GWF was not implemented .
Why we dont have barbarian ? Or weapon master?
I will dig and show devs how many times they nerfed GWF .
But this time i think its too much comoon i can hit 24k with my 14.7k GS GF using KC+Bull Charge .
We hit hard yess . We have tankiness yess .
God dam it we have Great Sword AND Scale armor . Not knife and leather biker jacket.
Have y ever see closle a Great Sword ? If i hit it on a real human torso he will be dead by 1 swing .
If i hit whit knife he will have still time to make it to hospital .
the gwf is me fighting with a gf
this is the gf i was fightin
the idea is that i respec either Sentinel/destroyer still lost... and took only half of his life... there was another gwf around me who lost pretty badly he had more power...
so DEVS can you explain why i lost so badly?
btw this is the pic on gateway live , as he on preview has more hitpoints around 51k .
oh and i said for a GF player who come here to whine to make this SET and he said he needs LS for PVP , so what can i say more? only fake feedback from whiners.
We are making a change to the shift powers for all classes to make them more responsive and improve player survivability as long as you can react. Being able to shift out of encounters and dailies will make reacting a much more important factor in high end PVE and PVP combat.
Guardian Fighter: Block: Block can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Devoted Cleric: Dodge: Dodge can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Trickster Rogue: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Hunter Ranger: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Control Wizard: Teleport: Teleport can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
This change can have some serious impacts on balance, so when it reaches Preview we would like players to test it as much as possible, but we believe that players should not be punished for attempting to cast powers before an area is threatened. This change should alleviate much of that, as well as improving interactions for all the shift mechanics.
Gonna have to practice animation cancelling my sprint, a half second here a half second there, thank god though I don't have to worry about anymore nerfs for GWF's you guys nerfed everything, shhh don't tell these guys they didn't nerf surestrike, common guys please .
I should clarify this a little. This isn't animation cancelling. More specifically you can stop a power that is currently casting by activating your shift power, but it does not affect the target. Once a power has begun to affect people it cannot be cancelled (except some rare circumstances with maintained powers that go on a separate cooldown).
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
We are making a change to the shift powers for all classes to make them more responsive and improve player survivability as long as you can react. Being able to shift out of encounters and dailies will make reacting a much more important factor in high end PVE and PVP combat.
Guardian Fighter: Block: Block can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Devoted Cleric: Dodge: Dodge can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Trickster Rogue: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Hunter Ranger: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Control Wizard: Teleport: Teleport can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
This change can have some serious impacts on balance, so when it reaches Preview we would like players to test it as much as possible, but we believe that players should not be punished for attempting to cast powers before an area is threatened. This change should alleviate much of that, as well as improving interactions for all the shift mechanics.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I think its a good change but agan pls look on what i wrote "with some pic" pls reconsider Take down nerf give us at least 1 prone and give back the the dmg for takedown for sent/inst its realy a joke dmg .
Or redesing the sentinel or instigator path like HR new paths .
Whats about wicked strike? I have almost died few times because i cant run from aoe. This atwill keeping me back to mob when I try sprint on live server.
still you don't know what you sayn, i already said few posts earlier, nerf roar and destroyer purpose, but not the normal damage you give with FS/takedown/threating rush , and give sprint damage resistance when it isn't needed..
Lets keep this thread on topic. This is not the place for a personal discussion or talk about Guardian Fighters.
This 100%, a mod will probably remove the off topic issues.
Again Crush - Ill plead my case with you...
I understand what you guys are trying to do for BOTH PVE and PVP:
PVE: Making Destroyers LESS tanky so the GF can still fill the role of "tank"
PVP: Destroyers deal too much damage FOR their tankiness, making them hard to kill AND dishing out alot of damage.
Correct me if I am wrong here - I have been playing a LONG time and I think this is the issues your addressing.
Well the solution (to me) seems VERY simple.
For the PVE issue: Ok I get it, nerf Unstoppable, but an 80% NERF to Unstoppable? Why dont we tone that back a bit to 15-30% which is pretty much the unanimous feedback here. Combined with the Roar fix, I really think this will help alot of the problems in PVE. Another thing you could always look at is just removing Unstoppable Recovery HP gain and instead it grants regen or temp HP instead. This would also go a LONG way in balance (these small things are BIG trust me)
For the PVP issue: Ok, I get it here too, Trust me I understand the capability of Destroyers damage in PVP. I honestly thing the issue is easily solved though....
Destroyers Purpose - change this so the change to proc off ANY attack is 10% (down from 25%) this is ONE of the feats giving PVP Destroyers far too much damage. 10% makes this IMO not worth it in PVP where short streaks of combat occur, so getting even 1-2 stacks would be VERY hard with this change in PVP but not change it in PVE almost at all... Id even STILL suggest then making Destroyers Capstone 1% @ 30 stacks (down from 2% @ 20 stacks). This is only a MINOR DPS loss for PVE but ALSO would go a LONG way in balancing this class for PVP.
Overall - Destroyer maintains SOME of its tankiness in PVE but loses about 10% dmg. In PVP its still a melee force to be reckoned with however its damage has been toned down ALOT due to that ONE feat change (Destroyers Purpose). People wont be QQing about Destroyer damage with this change and TBH I really think this would balance the class.
NOW - if you want to take away control of the GWF, then keeping some Sprint utility is a decent way to go.
EITHER
OPTION A) Give back control and do zero sprint benefits besides movement
OPTION Remove control - like you have (still no need to reduce takedown dmg btw) and give sprint utility. I am completely against the CC IMMUNITY idea, but what I am for is EITHER 1) DR in sprint (can be in the form of deflection - which I would suggest BTW) or 2) CC RESISTANCE.
So what ALL these changes could look like:
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% (or even removed)
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed.
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited June 2014
Mod req pls . We cant give feedback cuz devs need to see 20 -30 post not giving any feedback.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30% agree
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% agree
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks not good cuz unstoppable dont last so long to stack 30 *1% maybe 15% *2
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed. + we want to keep at least 1 prone but agree
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION not need
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE we will need this i agree
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30% agree
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% agree
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks not good cuz unstoppable dont last so long to stack 30 *1% maybe 15% *2
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed. + we want to keep at least 1 prone but agree
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION not need
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE we will need this i agree
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
I like your suggestion.
15 stacks @ 2% each - this brings other weapon enchants back into play again since GPF was the "go to" for these stacks.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Sprint being able to cancel all powers is what caused animation cancelling in the first place. These powers can gain additional benefits from animation cancelling via Sprint:
Come and Get it! (enemies pulled, there is a 1.2 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Battle Fury (after casting, there is a 1.7 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Wicked Strike (similar to the old Weapon Master's Strike animation cancel issue, can be used to attack ~30% faster if perfected)
Unstoppable (after casting, there is a 0.5 second delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Frontline Surge (after casting, there is a 1.2 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Indomitable Strength (using Sprint after activating power, 2nd attack will continue to occur out of nowhere and send the target flying while player can use other attacks)
Animation cancelling Threatening Rush using Indomitable Battle Strike plays the animation of Threatening Rush and deals the damage of Indomitable Battle Strike, used mainly to shorten the cast time of Indomitable Battle Strike.
Savage Advance (after initiating, can sprint immediately while target will remain prone for full duration, as if power had animated normally - compare this to Cescendo, where using Sprint to cancel the power will end the stun effect on target early)
There's probably some others too.
The way to fix incidental animation cancelling / earlier reactivation of normal activity is to give powers a longer cast time, but reduced "idle" time after the effect starts.
I should clarify this a little. This isn't animation cancelling. More specifically you can stop a power that is currently casting by activating your shift power, but it does not affect the target. Once a power has begun to affect people it cannot be cancelled (except some rare circumstances with maintained powers that go on a separate cooldown).
General
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized. Agreed.
Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list. Good change.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds. Excellent. Roaring bug was "a king of all bugs" in pvp, and main balance-breaker (especially when used against TRs)
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%) Really bad. It makes GWF a "cannon fodder" in pvp and makes no sense using Destroyer in PvE (even TR will do better). Such "painful" nerfs never helps to maintain balance and can lead to "infinite nerfing loop" - for example with next update you may decide to nerf TRs as they becomes too "cool" compared with nerfed GWFs, and so on.
My opinion:
For Destroyer/Instigator - remove Unstopable damage resist at all (or even 5-10% increase to damage taken, "berserk" mode), but grant 5-10% damage gain (instead of reduction) along with existing attack speed improvement. Ideal for "hit and run" tactic in PvP, and makes room for GFs in PvE, as not much viable for "tanking". Balanced!
For Sentinel - leave 25-50% damage resist but reduce damage from Takedown and/or Frontline Surge (and not reduce for Destroyer/Instigator)
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs. Good idea.
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage. Good for Sentinel and not so god for Instigator/Destroyer.
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs. Bad idea, as GWF will have no controlling non-daily powers at all. My opinion: leave intact
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds. Good idea to decrease overmobility
Feats
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects. Good idea along with reduction of powers damage for Sentinel
From "Drider" with love. Bear. Vodka. Balalaika.
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fr3akout3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 72
We are making a change to the shift powers for all classes to make them more responsive and improve player survivability as long as you can react. Being able to shift out of encounters and dailies will make reacting a much more important factor in high end PVE and PVP combat.
Guardian Fighter: Block: Block can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Devoted Cleric: Dodge: Dodge can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Trickster Rogue: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Hunter Ranger: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Control Wizard: Teleport: Teleport can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
This change can have some serious impacts on balance, so when it reaches Preview we would like players to test it as much as possible, but we believe that players should not be punished for attempting to cast powers before an area is threatened. This change should alleviate much of that, as well as improving interactions for all the shift mechanics.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I agree with the changed and I believe that it's going to make some GWF stand out.
I have seen SM DESTRO DPS builds always move, change positions, always have their finger on sprint which I belive with a good group will still do very well. If the changes are going to hit live then I would simply request a 10%-15% in unstoppable if you are going to keep it a low. This will help new players in their adventure a bit more. The IV will have FLS to create breathing space where the SM does not, so he is going to dance around the enemies and wait for someone to use a control power in some sort so that he can pow on top. Give him that little something that is missing please.
PVE FOCUS OF COURSE ONLY
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fr3akout3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 72
edited June 2014
I would like to add 1 more option for the GWF Sword Master Path.
I have tested this on one of my chars Aicha on Preview and also watched H3adache test the IV build in IWD.
Would it be possibly to change NSF (Not So Fast) to Stunning NPC's for 2-3 seconds instead of slowing them down? since the SM does not have any decent control encounters as unstoppable has been reduced; I believe that it would be a good option to create a bit of breathing space instead of always running around and worrying that the next attack results in death.
For people saying that unstoppable should be 15-30%, don't forget that the last sentinel feat is a multiplier of unstoppable's base DR. To maintain that I think 12.5-25% would be more appropriate so the feat multiplies it by 2 to get to 25-50%. A little less than what's being suggested but more appropriate to fit the feat.
Just call me Rod. Member of Grievance! CW: Rodrant Turnbul TR: Rodran DC: Rodrat GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL Other GWF: Shieldrant HR: Bowdrant SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!) OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Okay, this thread has finally been cleansed of all the Off Topic or Non-Feedback Specific Discussions.
In the future please report the first Off Topic Post or the point where you feel the thread has become too far derailed so we can try to get the thread back On Topic as quickly as possible.
As an Off Topic note about myself I leave my house at 2 PM EST to go to work and do not get home until 2:30 AM EST four to five days a week. With the need to do Protector's Jubilee dailies on seven characters I can't begin stress how much reports (especially prompt reports) help the moderation team as it took over an hour to read every post to decide which could stay and which was better off elsewhere just in this one thread. The sooner we get reports the sooner we can keep threads on topic and the less derailed the threads will become.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
The only feedback which belongs in these threads is feedback directly regarding existing and announced changes to the game on the Public Test Shard.
Discussions and debates belong in the discussion threads. It's not that it isn't feedback but these threads exist to give the developers feedback based directly on the changes in the PTS and actual experience rather than reactions to reading the patch notes.
Following the developer's requested format is extremely helpful and preferred just for the reason it makes it easier for the developers to organize and compile the feedback but there's plenty of feedback which was directly based on player experience on the PTS which did not follow the format.
Now please keep this thread On Topic.
EDIT - Basically any rebuttal was instantly counted as a discussion. As I said when I first cleaned these threads last weekend imagine these threads as your go ahead to talk directly to the developers. Keep your feedback directly to them rather than debates and discussions with other players.
Discussions and debates are very helpful as feedback and were crucial to the developers when initially planning these changes and I am sure the developers are reading those threads as well but but these threads are specifically for focused feedback based on the existing or announced changes they have already made.
iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Seems some of my feedback posts got removed too, but no worries, I will just repost most of what I was trying to get across after my next round of testing. Probably just got removed because they would have been confusing without the context.
Thanks Ambi for cleaning this up, it was getting distracting from the real issues. (I hope that doesn't count as discussing moderation).
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
We are making a change to the shift powers for all classes to make them more responsive and improve player survivability as long as you can react. Being able to shift out of encounters and dailies will make reacting a much more important factor in high end PVE and PVP combat.
Guardian Fighter: Block: Block can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Devoted Cleric: Dodge: Dodge can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Trickster Rogue: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Hunter Ranger: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Control Wizard: Teleport: Teleport can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
This change can have some serious impacts on balance, so when it reaches Preview we would like players to test it as much as possible, but we believe that players should not be punished for attempting to cast powers before an area is threatened. This change should alleviate much of that, as well as improving interactions for all the shift mechanics.
Comments
The nerf to Unstoppable has just gone too far. I remember what GWFs where like back in Mod 1 when Unstoppable did not even grant Temp HP and had the 25-50% damage reduction only. And Back then GWF dropped like flies. Now They will die even faster. A dead GWF does no damage and is not wanted in any group.
Unstoppable needs to be 15-30% damage reduction at least. And even with that Sprint needs to be buffed to be on par with other classes shift powers. While granting dodge for the full length of a sprint may be a bit much but granting a Huge bonus to deflection and defeltion severity would be a step in the right direction. And by Huge I mean +100% deflection chance and +25-50% deflection severity.
Until then it is time to retire my GWF I did enjoy playing for the brief period it was useful But I Tried to play in pre mod 2 and gave up and GWF is obivous going that route. And yes I have done alot of test on previre server. I might just start playing HR. But I still think my CW main will hold it's own with these nerfs. Since GWF its only competitor is completely dead now.
Sry for my english, cheers.
This means that things are starting to go in the right direction! Stacking CWs and GWFs no longer pays off
GWF have potential, i have played him before mod2 and i will play afer mod4. They can nerf us we will back and handle it like a man, not "we need more love" puppies.
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't calling an "At-Will" that you can only use sometimes contradicting itself?
Basically now a fourth encounter? (With reduced damage)
I don't really understand the reasoning of increasing the effect of the power stat, then down the line having to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all skills to do reduced damage. Change power? That would be something.
Now npc monsters with power, blademasters in ToS, for example. Can take down a well geared gwf while unstoppable. So now that things hit harder we are getting LESS damage resistance?
More and more npc abilities are knocking me around, or just plain ignoring unstoppable's CC portion of resistance. Find my self running around dodging and chugging potions. So I am having a hard time finding what is so overpowered. If it is a balance in pvp is it out of the question to "While Flagged For PvP" -insert balance mechanic here-
People worry about power creep. If all the classes are on par with GWF/CW that is NOT power creep, that is balance. Lowering the GWF/CW to the other classes... the other classes are underpowered. Why would you add an expansion, and in the expansion you come out weaker than you were before. What sense does that make?
All that said, I am sure some nerfing/tweaking can be done. Maybe the CW changes are spot on, making them still powerful, but not insane. But if you nerf them to the level of a TR, or GF, or DC... now everybody sucks, no matter what class you are.
Its not just that CW/GWF are overpowered, the rest are gimped. If it was just that, you would see rainbow parties of 12k toons doing CN. ya it would be rough, but possible. I don't think it is. You dont see that, do you? Because, in order to do it effectively, you need the "OP" classes. If they are the ones that can do it, are they really OP?
Again, don't come back to me saying "its possible with x-y-z class", or "it could be done". We are talking about reasonably being able to do it.
The HR can facetank 6-10 ppl minimum 4 min and even kill some of them VS 6 ppl he can even kill all of them .
And what they got buffed to be a god i tested it my self, 20% ls from a single encounter i got back 8k hp cut it in half 4 k hp in pvp . I can show y some vid but its forbidden to do it.
So i dont get it why we cant have at least 1 prone ?
Somday i wish GWF was not implemented .
Why we dont have barbarian ? Or weapon master?
I will dig and show devs how many times they nerfed GWF .
But this time i think its too much comoon i can hit 24k with my 14.7k GS GF using KC+Bull Charge .
We hit hard yess . We have tankiness yess .
God dam it we have Great Sword AND Scale armor . Not knife and leather biker jacket.
Have y ever see closle a Great Sword ? If i hit it on a real human torso he will be dead by 1 swing .
If i hit whit knife he will have still time to make it to hospital .
this is the gf i was fightin
the idea is that i respec either Sentinel/destroyer still lost... and took only half of his life... there was another gwf around me who lost pretty badly he had more power...
so DEVS can you explain why i lost so badly?
btw this is the pic on gateway live , as he on preview has more hitpoints around 51k .
oh and i said for a GF player who come here to whine to make this SET and he said he needs LS for PVP , so what can i say more? only fake feedback from whiners.
Guardian Fighter: Block: Block can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Devoted Cleric: Dodge: Dodge can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Trickster Rogue: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Hunter Ranger: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Control Wizard: Teleport: Teleport can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
This change can have some serious impacts on balance, so when it reaches Preview we would like players to test it as much as possible, but we believe that players should not be punished for attempting to cast powers before an area is threatened. This change should alleviate much of that, as well as improving interactions for all the shift mechanics.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Chieftain
I think its a good change but agan pls look on what i wrote "with some pic" pls reconsider Take down nerf give us at least 1 prone and give back the the dmg for takedown for sent/inst its realy a joke dmg .
Or redesing the sentinel or instigator path like HR new paths .
This 100%, a mod will probably remove the off topic issues.
Again Crush - Ill plead my case with you...
I understand what you guys are trying to do for BOTH PVE and PVP:
PVE: Making Destroyers LESS tanky so the GF can still fill the role of "tank"
PVP: Destroyers deal too much damage FOR their tankiness, making them hard to kill AND dishing out alot of damage.
Correct me if I am wrong here - I have been playing a LONG time and I think this is the issues your addressing.
Well the solution (to me) seems VERY simple.
For the PVE issue: Ok I get it, nerf Unstoppable, but an 80% NERF to Unstoppable? Why dont we tone that back a bit to 15-30% which is pretty much the unanimous feedback here. Combined with the Roar fix, I really think this will help alot of the problems in PVE. Another thing you could always look at is just removing Unstoppable Recovery HP gain and instead it grants regen or temp HP instead. This would also go a LONG way in balance (these small things are BIG trust me)
For the PVP issue: Ok, I get it here too, Trust me I understand the capability of Destroyers damage in PVP. I honestly thing the issue is easily solved though....
Destroyers Purpose - change this so the change to proc off ANY attack is 10% (down from 25%) this is ONE of the feats giving PVP Destroyers far too much damage. 10% makes this IMO not worth it in PVP where short streaks of combat occur, so getting even 1-2 stacks would be VERY hard with this change in PVP but not change it in PVE almost at all... Id even STILL suggest then making Destroyers Capstone 1% @ 30 stacks (down from 2% @ 20 stacks). This is only a MINOR DPS loss for PVE but ALSO would go a LONG way in balancing this class for PVP.
Overall - Destroyer maintains SOME of its tankiness in PVE but loses about 10% dmg. In PVP its still a melee force to be reckoned with however its damage has been toned down ALOT due to that ONE feat change (Destroyers Purpose). People wont be QQing about Destroyer damage with this change and TBH I really think this would balance the class.
NOW - if you want to take away control of the GWF, then keeping some Sprint utility is a decent way to go.
EITHER
OPTION A) Give back control and do zero sprint benefits besides movement
OPTION
So what ALL these changes could look like:
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% (or even removed)
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed.
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30% agree
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% agree
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks not good cuz unstoppable dont last so long to stack 30 *1% maybe 15% *2
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed. + we want to keep at least 1 prone but agree
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION not need
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE we will need this i agree
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
I like your suggestion.
15 stacks @ 2% each - this brings other weapon enchants back into play again since GPF was the "go to" for these stacks.
Come and Get it! (enemies pulled, there is a 1.2 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Battle Fury (after casting, there is a 1.7 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Wicked Strike (similar to the old Weapon Master's Strike animation cancel issue, can be used to attack ~30% faster if perfected)
Unstoppable (after casting, there is a 0.5 second delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Frontline Surge (after casting, there is a 1.2 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Indomitable Strength (using Sprint after activating power, 2nd attack will continue to occur out of nowhere and send the target flying while player can use other attacks)
Animation cancelling Threatening Rush using Indomitable Battle Strike plays the animation of Threatening Rush and deals the damage of Indomitable Battle Strike, used mainly to shorten the cast time of Indomitable Battle Strike.
Savage Advance (after initiating, can sprint immediately while target will remain prone for full duration, as if power had animated normally - compare this to Cescendo, where using Sprint to cancel the power will end the stun effect on target early)
There's probably some others too.
The way to fix incidental animation cancelling / earlier reactivation of normal activity is to give powers a longer cast time, but reduced "idle" time after the effect starts.
I believe this addresses your concern....
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Agreed.
Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Good change.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.
Excellent. Roaring bug was "a king of all bugs" in pvp, and main balance-breaker (especially when used against TRs)
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
Really bad. It makes GWF a "cannon fodder" in pvp and makes no sense using Destroyer in PvE (even TR will do better). Such "painful" nerfs never helps to maintain balance and can lead to "infinite nerfing loop" - for example with next update you may decide to nerf TRs as they becomes too "cool" compared with nerfed GWFs, and so on.
My opinion:
For Destroyer/Instigator - remove Unstopable damage resist at all (or even 5-10% increase to damage taken, "berserk" mode), but grant 5-10% damage gain (instead of reduction) along with existing attack speed improvement. Ideal for "hit and run" tactic in PvP, and makes room for GFs in PvE, as not much viable for "tanking". Balanced!
For Sentinel - leave 25-50% damage resist but reduce damage from Takedown and/or Frontline Surge (and not reduce for Destroyer/Instigator)
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Good idea.
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.
Good for Sentinel and not so god for Instigator/Destroyer.
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Bad idea, as GWF will have no controlling non-daily powers at all.
My opinion: leave intact
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
Good idea to decrease overmobility
Feats
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
Good idea along with reduction of powers damage for Sentinel
Bear. Vodka. Balalaika.
I agree with the changed and I believe that it's going to make some GWF stand out.
I have seen SM DESTRO DPS builds always move, change positions, always have their finger on sprint which I belive with a good group will still do very well. If the changes are going to hit live then I would simply request a 10%-15% in unstoppable if you are going to keep it a low. This will help new players in their adventure a bit more. The IV will have FLS to create breathing space where the SM does not, so he is going to dance around the enemies and wait for someone to use a control power in some sort so that he can pow on top. Give him that little something that is missing please.
PVE FOCUS OF COURSE ONLY
I have tested this on one of my chars Aicha on Preview and also watched H3adache test the IV build in IWD.
Would it be possibly to change NSF (Not So Fast) to Stunning NPC's for 2-3 seconds instead of slowing them down? since the SM does not have any decent control encounters as unstoppable has been reduced; I believe that it would be a good option to create a bit of breathing space instead of always running around and worrying that the next attack results in death.
PVE FOCUS ONLY
CW: Rodrant Turnbul
TR: Rodran
DC: Rodrat
GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL
Other GWF: Shieldrant
HR: Bowdrant
SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!)
OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
In the future please report the first Off Topic Post or the point where you feel the thread has become too far derailed so we can try to get the thread back On Topic as quickly as possible.
As an Off Topic note about myself I leave my house at 2 PM EST to go to work and do not get home until 2:30 AM EST four to five days a week. With the need to do Protector's Jubilee dailies on seven characters I can't begin stress how much reports (especially prompt reports) help the moderation team as it took over an hour to read every post to decide which could stay and which was better off elsewhere just in this one thread. The sooner we get reports the sooner we can keep threads on topic and the less derailed the threads will become.
Please report!
Discussions and debates belong in the discussion threads. It's not that it isn't feedback but these threads exist to give the developers feedback based directly on the changes in the PTS and actual experience rather than reactions to reading the patch notes.
Following the developer's requested format is extremely helpful and preferred just for the reason it makes it easier for the developers to organize and compile the feedback but there's plenty of feedback which was directly based on player experience on the PTS which did not follow the format.
Now please keep this thread On Topic.
EDIT - Basically any rebuttal was instantly counted as a discussion. As I said when I first cleaned these threads last weekend imagine these threads as your go ahead to talk directly to the developers. Keep your feedback directly to them rather than debates and discussions with other players.
Discussions and debates are very helpful as feedback and were crucial to the developers when initially planning these changes and I am sure the developers are reading those threads as well but but these threads are specifically for focused feedback based on the existing or announced changes they have already made.
Thanks Ambi for cleaning this up, it was getting distracting from the real issues. (I hope that doesn't count as discussing moderation).
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
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