So at first I thought Not So Fast was getting the damage buff and threat increase and was thinking that Sentinels will actually be able to tank. But now hearing it was actually Come And Get It getting the buff, this is not helpful. Come And Get It has a poor effect and does almost no damage, it could do 3 times damage and still be useless in PVE. Sentinels are still not going to be able to hold any agro.
Have been doing some testing with Destroyer and Sentinal builds in Icewind dale on Preview.
While I agree with the "intent" of the changes to make Destroyer a Damage Dealer and Sentinel a tank. It appears to me you made the gap too big as both are not viable in PvE content.
My Trials with Destroyer GWF was to get used to using sprint to keep out of attacks, I'm used to this I do it well. You need this skill in end game dungeons. I still find that the destroyer is far to vulnerable for what I like about the GWF. So I stacked some Defense gear. I have full several sets of gear. And even putting on full Black Ice purified set the class still seems far to squishy. It is not fun to solo with I can only imagine how bad it would be in Kessels retreat if even stacking Defense gear is no good.
So I tried Sentinel in Full Damage gear. And sentinel really has not changed all that much since mod one. No damage and lots of defense only viable for PvE. I doubt the taunts will make Sentinel viable for PvE either. As a GWF you are expected to do damage.
So I am completely unable to make a GWF that is balanced in defense and damage. Can be on the frontlines and not fear AoE attacks but no main tank either. I kinda hope Instigator could do that but for it to be effective it would need +20% Damage and Defense on its Unstoppbale to compare with the Destoyers +40% damage or the sentinels +40% great damage reduction.
The concept is just silly and this is how you are destroying the GWF class yet again.
On other changes. I agree with prone becoming stun in PvP. It means tenacity means something against those attacks. I agree with Sprint actually have a defensive mechanic. It does not make sprinting better to me. To me it means if you are bad at sprinting you still get something for trying. With this change sprint is still the worst shift power of any class and as a GWF thats fine by me as long as Unstoppable is still viable. It seems to me you are trying to make the game more streamlined between the classes like GF using stamina now instead of guard meter. I agree with that kind of thinking. But also remember tab powers Need to be very special and effective for each class. Unstoppable has never been an offensive move. Increased attack speed on At wills and lowered damage was never the point of unstoppable. I see it like this a CW's tab gives him 30% more encounter powers so why cant unstoppable give the GWF up to 30% more defense.
The damage reduction on Takedown is a sign of your poor game design. You do not make a feat in one GWF tree that makes takedown do more damage than nerf the moves base damage to compensate. Just reduce the bonus damage in the destroyer tree so all types of GWF's can enjoy this move.
SO NOW I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH
Cryptic has a very very very poor reputation for ignoring player comments and just doing there own thing. This reputation hurts you more than just making these drastic drastic changes to Game balance on a whim. Most players here have stated a 15-30% unstoppbel is more viable and will make all GWF players happy. I agree with this change as well and you NEED to listen to your player base on this one. If it seems the change was not enough later on so be it more changes can be made. But right here right Now this is what players are saying so you have to adhere to it.
I simply cannot go back to the completely unwanted GWF of mod 1. I just can't go through that again.
Have been doing some testing with Destroyer and Sentinal builds in Icewind dale on Preview.
While I agree with the "intent" of the changes to make Destroyer a Damage Dealer and Sentinel a tank. It appears to me you made the gap too big as both are not viable in PvE content.
My Trials with Destroyer GWF was to get used to using sprint to keep out of attacks, I'm used to this I do it well. You need this skill in end game dungeons. I still find that the destroyer is far to vulnerable for what I like about the GWF. So I stacked some Defense gear. I have full several sets of gear. And even putting on full Black Ice purified set the class still seems far to squishy. It is not fun to solo with I can only imagine how bad it would be in Kessels retreat if even stacking Defense gear is no good.
So I tried Sentinel in Full Damage gear. And sentinel really has not changed all that much since mod one. No damage and lots of defense only viable for PvE. I doubt the taunts will make Sentinel viable for PvE either. As a GWF you are expected to do damage.
So I am completely unable to make a GWF that is balanced in defense and damage. Can be on the frontlines and not fear AoE attacks but no main tank either. I kinda hope Instigator could do that but for it to be effective it would need +20% Damage and Defense on its Unstoppbale to compare with the Destoyers +40% damage or the sentinels +40% great damage reduction.
The concept is just silly and this is how you are destroying the GWF class yet again.
On other changes. I agree with prone becoming stun in PvP. It means tenacity means something against those attacks. I agree with Sprint actually have a defensive mechanic. It does not make sprinting better to me. To me it means if you are bad at sprinting you still get something for trying. With this change sprint is still the worst shift power of any class and as a GWF thats fine by me as long as Unstoppable is still viable. It seems to me you are trying to make the game more streamlined between the classes like GF using stamina now instead of guard meter. I agree with that kind of thinking. But also remember tab powers Need to be very special and effective for each class. Unstoppable has never been an offensive move. Increased attack speed on At wills and lowered damage was never the point of unstoppable. I see it like this a CW's tab gives him 30% more encounter powers so why cant unstoppable give the GWF up to 30% more defense.
The damage reduction on Takedown is a sign of your poor game design. You do not make a feat in one GWF tree that makes takedown do more damage than nerf the moves base damage to compensate. Just reduce the bonus damage in the destroyer tree so all types of GWF's can enjoy this move.
SO NOW I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH
Cryptic has a very very very poor reputation for ignoring player comments and just doing there own thing. This reputation hurts you more than just making these drastic drastic changes to Game balance on a whim. Most players here have stated a 15-30% unstoppbel is more viable and will make all GWF players happy. I agree with this change as well and you NEED to listen to your player base on this one. If it seems the change was not enough later on so be it more changes can be made. But right here right Now this is what players are saying so you have to adhere to it.
I simply cannot go back to the completely unwanted GWF of mod 1. I just can't go through that again.
Well said, bravo
Zach
Essence of Aggression
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited July 2014
While I'm not an 'overgeared 18k GS whale', and I'm mainly a HR player (PvE), I had the joy of leveling a GWF (unlocking the Artifact only).
The current (Live Server) Unstoppable allows withstanding enemy assault while literally 'parking' inside the AoE. I think no class should be able to 'park' inside an AoE zone.
But right now, Sprint is very unresponsible on live, and I wouldn't trust my life for it.
That said, I did hear that it is possible for a GWF that doesn't stack Radiants in their Def Slots or 'only' use purely offensive weighted rings and so on to get 40-50% base DR. With a 30% (at full charge) Unstoppable, a Destroyer would (at sacrifice of damage) be able to get 80% DR. If the Sentinel Feat would give a 3x modifier (so it ends with a 90% Bonus at maximum) they would be able to sacrifice some base Defense for offense.
Personally, I am currently riding along in mainly offense minded gear, and I have roughly 30% base DR, but I am also only wearing a Slayer of Xvim loadout and a pile of Level 50 greens, none of which gives much Defense.
While I'm not an 'overgeared 18k GS whale', and I'm mainly a HR player (PvE), I had the joy of leveling a GWF (unlocking the Artifact only).
The current (Live Server) Unstoppable allows withstanding enemy assault while literally 'parking' inside the AoE. I think no class should be able to 'park' inside an AoE zone.
But right now, Sprint is very unresponsible on live, and I wouldn't trust my life for it.
That said, I did hear that it is possible for a GWF that doesn't stack Radiants in their Def Slots or 'only' use purely offensive weighted rings and so on to get 40-50% base DR. With a 30% (at full charge) Unstoppable, a Destroyer would (at sacrifice of damage) be able to get 80% DR. If the Sentinel Feat would give a 3x modifier (so it ends with a 90% Bonus at maximum) they would be able to sacrifice some base Defense for offense.
Personally, I am currently riding along in mainly offense minded gear, and I have roughly 30% base DR, but I am also only wearing a Slayer of Xvim loadout and a pile of Level 50 greens, none of which gives much Defense.
GWF are melee class. Melee class need to be some kind of offtank. Rouges can pop ITC and stay in red too. We are saving your (range) a*** in every dungeon keeping aggro on themselves. Warrior need sprint for running to fight not from fight. Maybe they should remove range from you? Or add some cd on your atwill powers because archers shouldnt have endless arrow-spam? Seems logic? Yeah.
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
GWF are melee class. Melee class need to be some kind of offtank. Rouges can pop ITC and stay in red too. We are saving your (range) a*** in every dungeon keeping aggro on themselves. Warrior need sprint for running to fight not from fight. Maybe they should remove range from you? Or add some cd on your atwill powers because archers shouldnt have endless arrow-spam? Seems logic? Yeah.
Hello Mr. Hater,
I hereby must inform you that Hunter Rangers are not a pure Ranged Class. Hint: Their Tab ability, gained at Level 10, allows the Hunter Ranger to switch into Melee Mode.
We also have a kind of Cooldown on some At-Wills. Split Shot, when using its full potential, needs a chargeup, which leaves the HR open to attack. Aimed Shot requires a casting time. Unless you use Barkshield or hide in Ambush/Forest Ghost, getting hit with even 1 point of damage cancels the Aimed Shot out. Also, Threatening Rush is technically not the GWFs At-Will, it is just an At-Will proliferated over from the GF, together with the whole 'created for GF' Paragon path. Who keeps it in the unlimited version.
I would totally be in favour for Destroyers to keep the Liveserver Unstoppable - if they give up a reasonable amount of damage.
Hello Mr. Hater,
I hereby must inform you that Hunter Rangers are not a pure Ranged Class. Hint: Their Tab ability, gained at Level 10, allows the Hunter Ranger to switch into Melee Mode.
We also have a kind of Cooldown on some At-Wills. Split Shot, when using its full potential, needs a chargeup, which leaves the HR open to attack. Aimed Shot requires a casting time. Unless you use Barkshield or hide in Ambush/Forest Ghost, getting hit with even 1 point of damage cancels the Aimed Shot out. Also, Threatening Rush is technically not the GWFs At-Will, it is just an At-Will proliferated over from the GF, together with the whole 'created for GF' Paragon path. Who keeps it in the unlimited version.
I would totally be in favour for Destroyers to keep the Liveserver Unstoppable - if they give up a reasonable amount of damage.
Except the GWF is a PURE melee class. No GWF can just pull back out of the big red circle and switch to their ranged attack set to continue to attack while staying out of the big red circle. What does Threatening Rush do? Puts them into melee range, right back into the big red circle. Why? Because as a PURE melee class, that's where they're intended to be.
Interrupting your ranged charge-up at-wills should not even be an issue since you're in the ranged stance and should be outside the big red circle. If you're getting interrupted because you're trying to charge up ranged attacks while still standing in the big red circle, that's wholey on you.
The solution is to bring a DC buddy who can keep the GWF up and going. Or spec into sentinel to be a better tank. If you don't bring a DC buddy, having to sprint in and out of red zones more to survive should be a logical consequence.
Yes, GWFs are a melee class. No, they shouldn't expect to be self-sufficient in every way, being super-tanky self-healing mega-damage dealers.
The fact that GWF players expect to be able to just tank anything while delivering mega damage and healing up through life steal and regen just tends to illustrate why they're making the changes they are.
The fact that you have grouped all possible specs and gear loadouts into one omnipotent GWF spec that offends your sensibilities, makes it very hard to have a discussion.
To be clear, Sprinting is not bad because we're lazy and don't want to move. It's not acceptable because it's not designed to be used like the shift/dodge abilities of the other classes, doesn't work as well as the shift/dodge abilities of other classes, and thus can't be relied on like the shift/dodge abilities of other classes.
Turn it into the reliable blink/slide/roll that other classes get, and Destroyer spec'd GWFs will happily rename themselves "Giant Dagger Rogues".
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Well, I might as well just post this (again) so that when it gets moved out it will be there for those reading the other posts there.
1) Iron Vanguard is a paragon available to ALL fighters, as is Swordmaster. GWF and GF are both fighters. Please stop saying "GWF stole IV", because it simply isn't true. Both have equal access to both paths.
2) GWF is supposed to be an offtank frontline melee class. The difference in paths is that they enhance different aspects of the class, not change the class itself. Destroyer enhances damage dealing and sentinel enhances tankiness. (instigator needs to be looked into as it really doesnt do much useful at all). To compare this to another class, an archery spec HR can still do fine in melee, they have just chosen to enhance their archery. Likewise, combat HR does fine in archery. The same (should) apply to every class. Your spec does not change the core of the class, it enhances a certain aspect of it. Please stop telling me destroyers need to "go sent" or "run around". Being a destoryer doesnt mean a GWF is suddenly not wearing full body armor and a tough fighter, it simply means they chose to enhance their damage dealing capability.
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Well, I might as well just post this (again) so that when it gets moved out it will be there for those reading the other posts there.
1) Iron Vanguard is a paragon available to ALL fighters, as is Swordmaster. GWF and GF are both fighters. Please stop saying "GWF stole IV", because it simply isn't true. Both have equal access to both paths.
2) GWF is supposed to be an offtank frontline melee class. The difference in paths is that they enhance different aspects of the class, not change the class itself. Destroyer enhances damage dealing and sentinel enhances tankiness. (instigator needs to be looked into as it really doesnt do much useful at all). To compare this to another class, an archery spec HR can still do fine in melee, they have just chosen to enhance their archery. Likewise, combat HR does fine in archery. The same (should) apply to every class. Your spec does not change the core of the class, it enhances a certain aspect of it. Please stop telling me destroyers need to "go sent" or "run around". Being a destoryer doesnt mean a GWF is suddenly not wearing full body armor and a tough fighter, it simply means they chose to enhance their damage dealing capability.
Well said. I know how weak GWFs used to be, the changes over time got us up to par. Also alot of gripe comes from GF to GWF comparisons resulting in the GWF looking OP. I beg to differ , its the GF class that is lacking and now is its turn to be brough up to par. Remains to be seen if the dev team will do a good job of it.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
have u ever seen a well balanced PVP team against well balanced PVP team, there is nothing OP there , i have seen 1 CW controlling 1 node , similarly TR, DC and HR also and but when GWF does it u all whine , the only class which can criticize GWF is GF cause they r the only class closer to us cause they r also melee and there class is not well balanced. any other class saying GWF is OP , then go learn to play ur class , its true CW is squishy but it has more than enough dodge capablities, killing a perma TR is pain in the *** , they go against a full balanced team alone and no1 seems to mind it , killing a DC many times others have to gank on him caause they keep on healing and dodging , and HR with there broken path can heal there full health while sitting on the node in midst of whole party and still survive , GF is only 1 which is not able to handle all of this for long , so u telling GWF is OP is baseless assumption.
the only problem with u was roar passing through dodges and CC immunity , which being repaired would have done it but no full GWF class got nerfed .
and taking point on unstoppable every class has tab powers which are beneficial to them , and GWF tab is full defensive thing and does not contribute to offensive , now due to unbalance PVP teams GWF many powers base damages are being reduced .
now it will again like when neverwinter came out of beta and GWF was a useless class.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Also something I noticed last night is, GWF's have no counters to perma stealth rogues now. None at all.
They're making Roar absolutely useless.
All our prones are gone.
Our unstoppable is weak.
We no longer will have a counter to perma stealth rogues in pvp at all now. They can just ITC out of our "stuns" now.
and GWF tab is full defensive thing and does not contribute to offensive
This one phrase will make people completely tune you out. GWF Unstoppable also has a powerful offensive component. Your At Will attacks are sped up considerably, only doing slightly less damage per hit. This increases your overall DPS when you are using Unstoppable, making it both a defensive and offensive TAB ability. If you are a Destroyer Build, it increases your DPS even more, making it one of the most powerful offensive abilities in the game.
This one phrase will make people completely tune you out. GWF Unstoppable also has a powerful offensive component. Your At Will attacks are sped up considerably, only doing slightly less damage per hit. This increases your overall DPS when you are using Unstoppable, making it both a defensive and offensive TAB ability. If you are a Destroyer Build, it increases your DPS even more, making it one of the most powerful offensive abilities in the game.
overall damage remain constant. it does not do anything to overall damage, the only reason u feel like it cause u dont avoide red are u stand and on it do damage. the reason it has speed is cause unstoppable is for a limited period of time and in that time u can stand in enemy aoe and attack.
dont give vague answer if u havent calculated. dummy is there in trade of blades and u can calculate it out.
Everyone is making pretty decent points. Your claims are all valid to a degree. However, everyone is missing a major point and it is this... It doesn't matter what the GWFs are or were, it is about the direction they are going. This is relevant not only to the GWF class but to the entire game.
GWFs are currently an extremely tanky class with above average dps in a single specialization path (Destroyer). Many players (I'd say a majority of the players) have chosen this spec for optimal performance and ease of playability. This is a problem. It pigeon holes the entire class into that one spec and creates the, Destroyer or Bust, community mentality. I made a post before that the changes are forcing players to play differently and open up new builds and path options. That is the direction the developers are taking the class.
The new GWF will have 3 options.
Destroyer- Sacrifice significant defense to do bonus DPS
Sentinel- Sacrifice significant DPS to gain more Defense/ DR.
Instigator- (Surprise) Sacrifice some personal DPS and Defense for team buffs.
Do you like that? Clearly not, but it is the direction they are going with. So far they are set to put these changes through. It will NOT kill the class. It will change the way you need to play. I will also say it again, Cryptic is pushing for more party oriented play and synergy. This is also a good way to provide a gold sink for the player base. You will need to use more potions for survival alone or learn to run things in a group.
improve instigator and here is list of gwf skills which could use some buff ups:
mighty leap should stun
eanforced threat should do some base damage 1-2k at least and have 15 target caps
roar should get 10 targets caps
not so fast 10 targets
spinning strike needs some 30% higher damage to be worth of animation +casting time
slam should be able to crtic
deep gash needs to be improved atm is overkilled at least 2x beter damage or some utily like slow could work to
student of the sword should be improved 10% or be able to work for team members to
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nostuineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited July 2014
Lets just say this. I appreciate all the changes and work that you folks (Devs) are doing. I will admit to being a bit miffed on what the TRUE goals are for balancing all the classes for PVP. But hey its not my game I just pay Zen money when I wish to upgrade on your base. So I am a paying customer if this makes any difference.
That said I would suggest just a few things. These first few things have not been discussed to my knowledge. So here goes.
1. Split ALL Powers/Feats into TWO EFFECT groups (For all Classes, NOT JUST GWF)
If you are flagged for PVP(Also Dueling in the future perhaps)/PVE, as such you could tweak either side of the coin without destroying the other when making class balancing changes easier and less erratic. How this would work, "X Skill does 1,000/590 PVE/PVP with 1.5/0.8 Prone/Stun PVE/PVP, Now repeat for all Powers/Feats.This has been done in other games and allows for the true nature of PVP
and PVE to be played without swinging a NERF/BUFF bat at an entire concept of a character class.
2. Give us ONE POWER with TWO drag down abilities In place of Determination/Unstoppable
Please remember the base build of a GWF is fighter, as such they should be a blend of Tank/DPS/Support if needed. Forcing us to choose a build from scratch and push to the END of the Feat trees to get the bonus DOES NOT HELP US. HRs can choose to start this change at lvl 20, but until then they are still HRs. New GWFS will not see the benefits of Sentinel builds until they get to a level high enough to slot the last tier of the Sentinel Tree. This makes them NOT able to tank well until they get there... or Not able to DPS well till they get there.
Do this. At level 10 when you give us Determination. Give us two abilities. Each gives a baseline 15-20 DR, however one gives MORE DPS +10/+20**, the other gives MORE DR +10/+20**. Done and Done. A GWF can now choose at level 10 to be more tanky or more DPSer, Unstoppable needs not change in its original intent. And the outcome of pressing the button for players which choose any path can still be felt. ** This denotes that determination has a scale, above and below the middle, and therefore could give us even more flexibility on WHEN we press the tab.
This would also allow you to TWEAK either one as I mentioned in step 1 of my comments, EACH drag down for determination would allow you to teak it for PVE/PVP content. Thus making it more scalable and tunable. Also this would allow a player to focus on one set of gear, and change out just a POWER set to be more flexible in a group.
This last statement I made is VERY important. As of now, VERY FEW folks will accept a GWF as a FULL ON tank able to taunt and take control of a situation. You are asking the ENTIRE playing community to change the way they view GWFS, NOT just the GWFs in general. That said until folks start to believe in the abilities to tank and hold agro (without JUST dps Threat), this would allow a GWF to fill more than one roll in a party without having to RESPEC or Change all gear/enchants and boons. Which you do not give us the ability to do without spending Zen/Gold/AD.
Those two changes alone would allow you a much more flexible tuning platform for the GWF, instead of the STERN hand of justice that you are serving us now. IMO.
Closing thoughts
One last comment. GWFs are still a base fighter. Our HP and ability to wear armor and do damage and take damage should be the baseline of a fighter class. Feats/Powers/Boons/Gear and Enchants should mold us into the variant within the scope of class role as PWE sees it. That said, PLEASE remember that the Feats/Powers/Boons are all gained MUCH later in the game, any leveling GWF will have to deal with the pretty pigeon holed viewpoint that has been put in place currently. The class will feel pretty bland until later in the game when you can choose your FULL Feat list and start gearing towards Tank/DPS or other. Not to mention the Time Sinks for the 3 Campaign boons.
I look forward to seeing any feed back that may be given. Please other posters, if you disagree with this, thats fine, there is no reason to bash me in my thoughts here. I am just trying to work within the set of rules that PWE is putting down for us. At this point I believe the lines on the floor are a little blurry for the GWF class and am just offering my ideas to get the ship pointed in the right direction.
On a more lighter side of things... for the love of god... if you are going to remove the prone from Take Down, especially in PVE, please change the name... :rolleyes:
Everyone is making pretty decent points. Your claims are all valid to a degree. However, everyone is missing a major point and it is this... It doesn't matter what the GWFs are or were, it is about the direction they are going. This is relevant not only to the GWF class but to the entire game.
GWFs are currently an extremely tanky class with above average dps in a single specialization path (Destroyer). Many players (I'd say a majority of the players) have chosen this spec for optimal performance and ease of playability. This is a problem. It pigeon holes the entire class into that one spec and creates the, Destroyer or Bust, community mentality. I made a post before that the changes are forcing players to play differently and open up new builds and path options. That is the direction the developers are taking the class.
The new GWF will have 3 options.
Destroyer- Sacrifice significant defense to do bonus DPS
Sentinel- Sacrifice significant DPS to gain more Defense/ DR.
Instigator- (Surprise) Sacrifice some personal DPS and Defense for team buffs.
Do you like that? Clearly not, but it is the direction they are going with. So far they are set to put these changes through. It will NOT kill the class. It will change the way you need to play. I will also say it again, Cryptic is pushing for more party oriented play and synergy. This is also a good way to provide a gold sink for the player base. You will need to use more potions for survival alone or learn to run things in a group.
<Mods - dont delete this, people need to see this>
Ok, its pretty obvious you dont play a GWF because you dont understand the HOW or WHY to what your saying, merely describing the WHAT. Here is what I mean by this.
You say GWFs are extremely tanky - do you know WHY they are extremely tanky? Thats the issue is the WHY not the WHAT. Its posts like this that cause the balance issues in the game, when players who play classes and say they need a tone down (like me) and say exactly HOW it can be done and WHY it should be done, are accomanied by players who just post WHAT the current version is, with no respect to WHY which causes DEVs to over nerf what shouldnt be.
Destroyers - ALREADY lost significant defense for bonus damage
Sentinels - ALREADY lost damage for significant defense.
Instigators - ah who am I kidding, there are none of these....
So WHY do Destroyers seem so tanky? Its simple...
PVE: They can significantly outgear dungeons, making the NEED for the extra defense that Sentinels give obsolete. Introduce harder dungeons, player who are Destroyer have to choose again between the tradeoffs.
PVP: Destroyers took advantage of a few things: 1) Roar 2 sec stun - surpases immunity. 2) Roar/takedown got a 50% reduced CD 3) Unstoppable Recovery (Sent T1 feat) ANYONE who is good in pvp took this feat - didnt respect healing depression. These three things made for a perfect storm.
- Roar went from a 12-13 sec CD down to 8. Takedown down to 6, this enabled for essentially a "stun lock" GWF who could dish out alot of damage. Oh your eating too much damage? Roar stun, takedown stun, you just got about 4 second of not taking damage.
- THEN you also gain determination from roar, which THEN allowed you to use unstoppable MORE often which THEN healed you for DOUBLE what its supposed to.
Do you see the problems?
Removing Roar stun, forces more players to slot things like frontline surge which has double the CD and produces little to NO determination. Which THEN gives them less unstoppable less often when THEN even when they pop it, will heal HALF as much.
So what does the new "META" look like?
Destroyer- Wield a 2h weapon but wear cloth armor.
Sentinel- Wield a Wet Noodle, but wear plate armor.
The issue is its now TOO much of either one option... What they NEED to do is tone both back more into the middle ground.
Destroyers - NEED to be able to take damage, less than Sents, but deal more damage.
Sentinels - NEED to be able to dish damage, less than Destroyers, but take more damage.
improve instigator and here is list of gwf skills which could use some buff ups:
mighty leap should stun
eanforced threat should do some base damage 1-2k at least and have 15 target caps
roar should get 10 targets caps
not so fast 10 targets
spinning strike needs some 30% higher damage to be worth of animation +casting time
slam should be able to crtic
deep gash needs to be improved atm is overkilled at least 2x beter damage or some utily like slow could work to
student of the sword should be improved 10% or be able to work for team members to
I dont think we need more DPS than we do now. IBS CAN hit hard (if crit). I will be just happy with DR like 30%. Dont forget CWs DPS will be nerfed.
W dont need to tank everything, we need to do dmg. Only problem is we need some "tankiness" to do our melee attacks. We arent range, we protect range classes by keeping aggro so they can burn mobs from from afar. Untoppable keeping us alive , its short period and we need to charge guard meter. Not all parties go with GFs, and u have to tell you: i have met only few good GF during the whole of my gaming time. Most of them dont know how to tank, keep aggro, protect rest. They call for more damage, better aggro / block (I dont mind, they are need some buffs) at same time when they running around, sometimes using bad skills in dungeons (vide random gf in cn yesterday - his bull charge messed our (I played on my CW) rotations many times). Someone will blame players dont inv GFs, but we are leveled have some time for learning how to play! At this moment I will probably take some GWF coz i have met only few bad GWFs. GWF bring safety and nice dps. Even TRs or HRs will be better option than GF. Dmg dealers are more skilled compared to slow and often bad tanks.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
2. Give us ONE POWER with TWO drag down abilities In place of Determination/Unstoppable
Please remember the base build of a GWF is fighter, as such they should be a blend of Tank/DPS/Support if needed. Forcing us to choose a build from scratch and push to the END of the Feat trees to get the bonus DOES NOT HELP US. HRs can choose to start this change at lvl 20, but until then they are still HRs. New GWFS will not see the benefits of Sentinel builds until they get to a level high enough to slot the last tier of the Sentinel Tree. This makes them NOT able to tank well until they get there... or Not able to DPS well till they get there.
Do this. At level 10 when you give us Determination. Give us two abilities. Each gives a baseline 15-20 DR, however one gives MORE DPS +10/+20**, the other gives MORE DR +10/+20**. Done and Done. A GWF can now choose at level 10 to be more tanky or more DPSer, Unstoppable needs not change in its original intent. And the outcome of pressing the button for players which choose any path can still be felt. ** This denotes that determination has a scale, above and below the middle, and therefore could give us even more flexibility on WHEN we press the tab.
This would also allow you to TWEAK either one as I mentioned in step 1 of my comments, EACH drag down for determination would allow you to teak it for PVE/PVP content. Thus making it more scalable and tunable. Also this would allow a player to focus on one set of gear, and change out just a POWER set to be more flexible in a group.
Blood Embrace
this 1 is a very good point , instead of decreasing the unstoppable DR as a whole , why not let us choose between 2 determination powers (like Steadfast Determination) 1 focusing on defense and 1 focusing on offense, 1 has 10-20% DR with some offensive buff , since u will be going to decrease the determination give us dmg buff , and 1 with 20-30% DR with no offense buff and change sentinel aegis accordingly or just like paragon path power option give sentinel and destroyer class feature which change depending on which path u took destroyer or sentinel.
if its destroyer increase DR through power and if choose sentinel give offensive buff.
well or just increase DR as a whole.
also remove the instigator path we dont need it , give us something like berserke path , the more we take dmg the more dmg we deal.
nobody i mean not a single GWF take instigator path. its just rotting there so give us some meaningful path instead of instigator.
1nce again no1 uses instigator path (as a full), and that berserker path will give DC more interaction with GWF.
Takedown:This power now deals ~30% less damage.
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge:This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush:This power now deals ~35% less damage.
It's important to understand the magnitude of these nerfs. Sentinel already got a 20-45% dmg nerf based on crit chance in Mod 3. It was never even given a chance in PVP. Encounters and Threatening rush is the majority of a GWFs damage in PvP and Destroyer is doing moderate damage on PTR while Sentinel can't even penetrate player's regeneration.
I still think the DR nerf to GWF is too much for new/leveling players. A better solution would be to
1. Apply the DR reduction only when you take the destroyer capstone.
2. Take a look at instigator and re-work the final feat (not being hit goes against everything a GWF is), so people have to option to do bridge the line between destroyer and sentinel. You can keep the DR but won't hit as hard as destroyer. Giving an option for pvp and players who do not want to turn their char into a glass cannon.
That sprint buff will likely make the PvP GWF annoy people more than they do now (sentinel), I would remove the CC immunity and just keep the DR (you can just pop unstoppable if you get hit like they do now.)
The issue is its now TOO much of either one option... What they NEED to do is tone both back more into the middle ground.
Destroyers - NEED to be able to take damage, less than Sents, but deal more damage.
Sentinels - NEED to be able to dish damage, less than Destroyers, but take more damage.
We have a 3rd tree which could be perfect solution for this problem.
1. Apply the DR reduction only when you take the destroyer capstone.
2. Take a look at instigator and re-work the final feat (not being hit goes against everything a GWF is), so people have to option to do bridge the line between destroyer and sentinel. You can keep the DR but won't hit as hard as destroyer. Giving an option for pvp and players who do not want to turn their char into a glass cannon.
That sprint buff will likely make the PvP GWF annoy people more than they do now (sentinel), I would remove the CC immunity and just keep the DR (you can just pop unstoppable if you get hit like they do now.)
We have a 3rd tree which could be perfect solution for this problem.
I think thats a clever solution although I STILL think the 10-20% is TOO much... THis NEEDs to be about 15-30% is honestly the "sweet spot".
Honestly an easy way to work this is:
Destroyers Purpose: Each stack of Dstroyers Purpose increases your damage by 2% but DECREASES Unstoppable's EFFECTIVENESS by 2% (multiplied). Stacks 20 times.
This means that a Destroyer going INTO a fight still maintains good tankiness until he builds stacks which is THEN a tradeoff between tankiness versus DR. This KEEPS Unstoppable for INSTIGATORS.
THEN you can look at adding the DR to sprint AND the IMMUNITY to sprint in INSTIGATOR path.
Shoot that capstone could EASILY be:
Sprint now Grants CC Immunity and X% DR while sprinting. Also you gain 15% Bonus damage for X seconds AFTER being hit. This means INSTIGATOR is in between the two damage wise and tankiness wise...
Comments
While I agree with the "intent" of the changes to make Destroyer a Damage Dealer and Sentinel a tank. It appears to me you made the gap too big as both are not viable in PvE content.
My Trials with Destroyer GWF was to get used to using sprint to keep out of attacks, I'm used to this I do it well. You need this skill in end game dungeons. I still find that the destroyer is far to vulnerable for what I like about the GWF. So I stacked some Defense gear. I have full several sets of gear. And even putting on full Black Ice purified set the class still seems far to squishy. It is not fun to solo with I can only imagine how bad it would be in Kessels retreat if even stacking Defense gear is no good.
So I tried Sentinel in Full Damage gear. And sentinel really has not changed all that much since mod one. No damage and lots of defense only viable for PvE. I doubt the taunts will make Sentinel viable for PvE either. As a GWF you are expected to do damage.
So I am completely unable to make a GWF that is balanced in defense and damage. Can be on the frontlines and not fear AoE attacks but no main tank either. I kinda hope Instigator could do that but for it to be effective it would need +20% Damage and Defense on its Unstoppbale to compare with the Destoyers +40% damage or the sentinels +40% great damage reduction.
The concept is just silly and this is how you are destroying the GWF class yet again.
On other changes. I agree with prone becoming stun in PvP. It means tenacity means something against those attacks. I agree with Sprint actually have a defensive mechanic. It does not make sprinting better to me. To me it means if you are bad at sprinting you still get something for trying. With this change sprint is still the worst shift power of any class and as a GWF thats fine by me as long as Unstoppable is still viable. It seems to me you are trying to make the game more streamlined between the classes like GF using stamina now instead of guard meter. I agree with that kind of thinking. But also remember tab powers Need to be very special and effective for each class. Unstoppable has never been an offensive move. Increased attack speed on At wills and lowered damage was never the point of unstoppable. I see it like this a CW's tab gives him 30% more encounter powers so why cant unstoppable give the GWF up to 30% more defense.
The damage reduction on Takedown is a sign of your poor game design. You do not make a feat in one GWF tree that makes takedown do more damage than nerf the moves base damage to compensate. Just reduce the bonus damage in the destroyer tree so all types of GWF's can enjoy this move.
SO NOW I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH
Cryptic has a very very very poor reputation for ignoring player comments and just doing there own thing. This reputation hurts you more than just making these drastic drastic changes to Game balance on a whim. Most players here have stated a 15-30% unstoppbel is more viable and will make all GWF players happy. I agree with this change as well and you NEED to listen to your player base on this one. If it seems the change was not enough later on so be it more changes can be made. But right here right Now this is what players are saying so you have to adhere to it.
I simply cannot go back to the completely unwanted GWF of mod 1. I just can't go through that again.
Well said, bravo
Essence of Aggression
The current (Live Server) Unstoppable allows withstanding enemy assault while literally 'parking' inside the AoE. I think no class should be able to 'park' inside an AoE zone.
But right now, Sprint is very unresponsible on live, and I wouldn't trust my life for it.
That said, I did hear that it is possible for a GWF that doesn't stack Radiants in their Def Slots or 'only' use purely offensive weighted rings and so on to get 40-50% base DR. With a 30% (at full charge) Unstoppable, a Destroyer would (at sacrifice of damage) be able to get 80% DR. If the Sentinel Feat would give a 3x modifier (so it ends with a 90% Bonus at maximum) they would be able to sacrifice some base Defense for offense.
Personally, I am currently riding along in mainly offense minded gear, and I have roughly 30% base DR, but I am also only wearing a Slayer of Xvim loadout and a pile of Level 50 greens, none of which gives much Defense.
GWF are melee class. Melee class need to be some kind of offtank. Rouges can pop ITC and stay in red too. We are saving your (range) a*** in every dungeon keeping aggro on themselves. Warrior need sprint for running to fight not from fight. Maybe they should remove range from you? Or add some cd on your atwill powers because archers shouldnt have endless arrow-spam? Seems logic? Yeah.
Hello Mr. Hater,
I hereby must inform you that Hunter Rangers are not a pure Ranged Class. Hint: Their Tab ability, gained at Level 10, allows the Hunter Ranger to switch into Melee Mode.
We also have a kind of Cooldown on some At-Wills. Split Shot, when using its full potential, needs a chargeup, which leaves the HR open to attack. Aimed Shot requires a casting time. Unless you use Barkshield or hide in Ambush/Forest Ghost, getting hit with even 1 point of damage cancels the Aimed Shot out. Also, Threatening Rush is technically not the GWFs At-Will, it is just an At-Will proliferated over from the GF, together with the whole 'created for GF' Paragon path. Who keeps it in the unlimited version.
I would totally be in favour for Destroyers to keep the Liveserver Unstoppable - if they give up a reasonable amount of damage.
Except the GWF is a PURE melee class. No GWF can just pull back out of the big red circle and switch to their ranged attack set to continue to attack while staying out of the big red circle. What does Threatening Rush do? Puts them into melee range, right back into the big red circle. Why? Because as a PURE melee class, that's where they're intended to be.
Interrupting your ranged charge-up at-wills should not even be an issue since you're in the ranged stance and should be outside the big red circle. If you're getting interrupted because you're trying to charge up ranged attacks while still standing in the big red circle, that's wholey on you.
The fact that you have grouped all possible specs and gear loadouts into one omnipotent GWF spec that offends your sensibilities, makes it very hard to have a discussion.
To be clear, Sprinting is not bad because we're lazy and don't want to move. It's not acceptable because it's not designed to be used like the shift/dodge abilities of the other classes, doesn't work as well as the shift/dodge abilities of other classes, and thus can't be relied on like the shift/dodge abilities of other classes.
Turn it into the reliable blink/slide/roll that other classes get, and Destroyer spec'd GWFs will happily rename themselves "Giant Dagger Rogues".
1) Iron Vanguard is a paragon available to ALL fighters, as is Swordmaster. GWF and GF are both fighters. Please stop saying "GWF stole IV", because it simply isn't true. Both have equal access to both paths.
2) GWF is supposed to be an offtank frontline melee class. The difference in paths is that they enhance different aspects of the class, not change the class itself. Destroyer enhances damage dealing and sentinel enhances tankiness. (instigator needs to be looked into as it really doesnt do much useful at all). To compare this to another class, an archery spec HR can still do fine in melee, they have just chosen to enhance their archery. Likewise, combat HR does fine in archery. The same (should) apply to every class. Your spec does not change the core of the class, it enhances a certain aspect of it. Please stop telling me destroyers need to "go sent" or "run around". Being a destoryer doesnt mean a GWF is suddenly not wearing full body armor and a tough fighter, it simply means they chose to enhance their damage dealing capability.
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Well said. I know how weak GWFs used to be, the changes over time got us up to par. Also alot of gripe comes from GF to GWF comparisons resulting in the GWF looking OP. I beg to differ , its the GF class that is lacking and now is its turn to be brough up to par. Remains to be seen if the dev team will do a good job of it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
the only problem with u was roar passing through dodges and CC immunity , which being repaired would have done it but no full GWF class got nerfed .
and taking point on unstoppable every class has tab powers which are beneficial to them , and GWF tab is full defensive thing and does not contribute to offensive , now due to unbalance PVP teams GWF many powers base damages are being reduced .
now it will again like when neverwinter came out of beta and GWF was a useless class.
They're making Roar absolutely useless.
All our prones are gone.
Our unstoppable is weak.
We no longer will have a counter to perma stealth rogues in pvp at all now. They can just ITC out of our "stuns" now.
This one phrase will make people completely tune you out. GWF Unstoppable also has a powerful offensive component. Your At Will attacks are sped up considerably, only doing slightly less damage per hit. This increases your overall DPS when you are using Unstoppable, making it both a defensive and offensive TAB ability. If you are a Destroyer Build, it increases your DPS even more, making it one of the most powerful offensive abilities in the game.
dont give vague answer if u havent calculated. dummy is there in trade of blades and u can calculate it out.
GWFs are currently an extremely tanky class with above average dps in a single specialization path (Destroyer). Many players (I'd say a majority of the players) have chosen this spec for optimal performance and ease of playability. This is a problem. It pigeon holes the entire class into that one spec and creates the, Destroyer or Bust, community mentality. I made a post before that the changes are forcing players to play differently and open up new builds and path options. That is the direction the developers are taking the class.
The new GWF will have 3 options.
Destroyer- Sacrifice significant defense to do bonus DPS
Sentinel- Sacrifice significant DPS to gain more Defense/ DR.
Instigator- (Surprise) Sacrifice some personal DPS and Defense for team buffs.
Do you like that? Clearly not, but it is the direction they are going with. So far they are set to put these changes through. It will NOT kill the class. It will change the way you need to play. I will also say it again, Cryptic is pushing for more party oriented play and synergy. This is also a good way to provide a gold sink for the player base. You will need to use more potions for survival alone or learn to run things in a group.
mighty leap should stun
eanforced threat should do some base damage 1-2k at least and have 15 target caps
roar should get 10 targets caps
not so fast 10 targets
spinning strike needs some 30% higher damage to be worth of animation +casting time
slam should be able to crtic
deep gash needs to be improved atm is overkilled at least 2x beter damage or some utily like slow could work to
student of the sword should be improved 10% or be able to work for team members to
That said I would suggest just a few things. These first few things have not been discussed to my knowledge. So here goes.
1. Split ALL Powers/Feats into TWO EFFECT groups (For all Classes, NOT JUST GWF)
If you are flagged for PVP(Also Dueling in the future perhaps)/PVE, as such you could tweak either side of the coin without destroying the other when making class balancing changes easier and less erratic. How this would work, "X Skill does 1,000/590 PVE/PVP with 1.5/0.8 Prone/Stun PVE/PVP, Now repeat for all Powers/Feats.This has been done in other games and allows for the true nature of PVP
and PVE to be played without swinging a NERF/BUFF bat at an entire concept of a character class.
2. Give us ONE POWER with TWO drag down abilities In place of Determination/Unstoppable
Please remember the base build of a GWF is fighter, as such they should be a blend of Tank/DPS/Support if needed. Forcing us to choose a build from scratch and push to the END of the Feat trees to get the bonus DOES NOT HELP US. HRs can choose to start this change at lvl 20, but until then they are still HRs. New GWFS will not see the benefits of Sentinel builds until they get to a level high enough to slot the last tier of the Sentinel Tree. This makes them NOT able to tank well until they get there... or Not able to DPS well till they get there.
Do this. At level 10 when you give us Determination. Give us two abilities. Each gives a baseline 15-20 DR, however one gives MORE DPS +10/+20**, the other gives MORE DR +10/+20**. Done and Done. A GWF can now choose at level 10 to be more tanky or more DPSer, Unstoppable needs not change in its original intent. And the outcome of pressing the button for players which choose any path can still be felt. ** This denotes that determination has a scale, above and below the middle, and therefore could give us even more flexibility on WHEN we press the tab.
This would also allow you to TWEAK either one as I mentioned in step 1 of my comments, EACH drag down for determination would allow you to teak it for PVE/PVP content. Thus making it more scalable and tunable. Also this would allow a player to focus on one set of gear, and change out just a POWER set to be more flexible in a group.
This last statement I made is VERY important. As of now, VERY FEW folks will accept a GWF as a FULL ON tank able to taunt and take control of a situation. You are asking the ENTIRE playing community to change the way they view GWFS, NOT just the GWFs in general. That said until folks start to believe in the abilities to tank and hold agro (without JUST dps Threat), this would allow a GWF to fill more than one roll in a party without having to RESPEC or Change all gear/enchants and boons. Which you do not give us the ability to do without spending Zen/Gold/AD.
Those two changes alone would allow you a much more flexible tuning platform for the GWF, instead of the STERN hand of justice that you are serving us now. IMO.
Closing thoughts
One last comment. GWFs are still a base fighter. Our HP and ability to wear armor and do damage and take damage should be the baseline of a fighter class. Feats/Powers/Boons/Gear and Enchants should mold us into the variant within the scope of class role as PWE sees it. That said, PLEASE remember that the Feats/Powers/Boons are all gained MUCH later in the game, any leveling GWF will have to deal with the pretty pigeon holed viewpoint that has been put in place currently. The class will feel pretty bland until later in the game when you can choose your FULL Feat list and start gearing towards Tank/DPS or other. Not to mention the Time Sinks for the 3 Campaign boons.
I look forward to seeing any feed back that may be given. Please other posters, if you disagree with this, thats fine, there is no reason to bash me in my thoughts here. I am just trying to work within the set of rules that PWE is putting down for us. At this point I believe the lines on the floor are a little blurry for the GWF class and am just offering my ideas to get the ship pointed in the right direction.
On a more lighter side of things... for the love of god... if you are going to remove the prone from Take Down, especially in PVE, please change the name... :rolleyes:
Iblis
Blood Embrace
<Mods - dont delete this, people need to see this>
Ok, its pretty obvious you dont play a GWF because you dont understand the HOW or WHY to what your saying, merely describing the WHAT. Here is what I mean by this.
You say GWFs are extremely tanky - do you know WHY they are extremely tanky? Thats the issue is the WHY not the WHAT. Its posts like this that cause the balance issues in the game, when players who play classes and say they need a tone down (like me) and say exactly HOW it can be done and WHY it should be done, are accomanied by players who just post WHAT the current version is, with no respect to WHY which causes DEVs to over nerf what shouldnt be.
Destroyers - ALREADY lost significant defense for bonus damage
Sentinels - ALREADY lost damage for significant defense.
Instigators - ah who am I kidding, there are none of these....
So WHY do Destroyers seem so tanky? Its simple...
PVE: They can significantly outgear dungeons, making the NEED for the extra defense that Sentinels give obsolete. Introduce harder dungeons, player who are Destroyer have to choose again between the tradeoffs.
PVP: Destroyers took advantage of a few things: 1) Roar 2 sec stun - surpases immunity. 2) Roar/takedown got a 50% reduced CD 3) Unstoppable Recovery (Sent T1 feat) ANYONE who is good in pvp took this feat - didnt respect healing depression. These three things made for a perfect storm.
- Roar went from a 12-13 sec CD down to 8. Takedown down to 6, this enabled for essentially a "stun lock" GWF who could dish out alot of damage. Oh your eating too much damage? Roar stun, takedown stun, you just got about 4 second of not taking damage.
- THEN you also gain determination from roar, which THEN allowed you to use unstoppable MORE often which THEN healed you for DOUBLE what its supposed to.
Do you see the problems?
Removing Roar stun, forces more players to slot things like frontline surge which has double the CD and produces little to NO determination. Which THEN gives them less unstoppable less often when THEN even when they pop it, will heal HALF as much.
So what does the new "META" look like?
Destroyer- Wield a 2h weapon but wear cloth armor.
Sentinel- Wield a Wet Noodle, but wear plate armor.
The issue is its now TOO much of either one option... What they NEED to do is tone both back more into the middle ground.
Destroyers - NEED to be able to take damage, less than Sents, but deal more damage.
Sentinels - NEED to be able to dish damage, less than Destroyers, but take more damage.
I dont think we need more DPS than we do now. IBS CAN hit hard (if crit). I will be just happy with DR like 30%. Dont forget CWs DPS will be nerfed.
W dont need to tank everything, we need to do dmg. Only problem is we need some "tankiness" to do our melee attacks. We arent range, we protect range classes by keeping aggro so they can burn mobs from from afar. Untoppable keeping us alive , its short period and we need to charge guard meter. Not all parties go with GFs, and u have to tell you: i have met only few good GF during the whole of my gaming time. Most of them dont know how to tank, keep aggro, protect rest. They call for more damage, better aggro / block (I dont mind, they are need some buffs) at same time when they running around, sometimes using bad skills in dungeons (vide random gf in cn yesterday - his bull charge messed our (I played on my CW) rotations many times). Someone will blame players dont inv GFs, but we are leveled have some time for learning how to play! At this moment I will probably take some GWF coz i have met only few bad GWFs. GWF bring safety and nice dps. Even TRs or HRs will be better option than GF. Dmg dealers are more skilled compared to slow and often bad tanks.
if its destroyer increase DR through power and if choose sentinel give offensive buff.
well or just increase DR as a whole.
also remove the instigator path we dont need it , give us something like berserke path , the more we take dmg the more dmg we deal.
nobody i mean not a single GWF take instigator path. its just rotting there so give us some meaningful path instead of instigator.
1nce again no1 uses instigator path (as a full), and that berserker path will give DC more interaction with GWF.
It's important to understand the magnitude of these nerfs. Sentinel already got a 20-45% dmg nerf based on crit chance in Mod 3. It was never even given a chance in PVP. Encounters and Threatening rush is the majority of a GWFs damage in PvP and Destroyer is doing moderate damage on PTR while Sentinel can't even penetrate player's regeneration.
1. Apply the DR reduction only when you take the destroyer capstone.
2. Take a look at instigator and re-work the final feat (not being hit goes against everything a GWF is), so people have to option to do bridge the line between destroyer and sentinel. You can keep the DR but won't hit as hard as destroyer. Giving an option for pvp and players who do not want to turn their char into a glass cannon.
That sprint buff will likely make the PvP GWF annoy people more than they do now (sentinel), I would remove the CC immunity and just keep the DR (you can just pop unstoppable if you get hit like they do now.)
We have a 3rd tree which could be perfect solution for this problem.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I think thats a clever solution although I STILL think the 10-20% is TOO much... THis NEEDs to be about 15-30% is honestly the "sweet spot".
Honestly an easy way to work this is:
Destroyers Purpose: Each stack of Dstroyers Purpose increases your damage by 2% but DECREASES Unstoppable's EFFECTIVENESS by 2% (multiplied). Stacks 20 times.
So what this would look like:
ZERO stacks: UNSTOPPABLE 25-50%. ZERO damage bonus.
5 stacks: 10% DAMAGE BONUS, 10% LESS EFFECTIVE UNSTOPAPBLE: 25%(.9) - 50%(.9) = 22.5% - 45%
10 stacks: 20% damage bonus, 20% less effective Unstop: 25%(.8) - 50%(.8) = 20% - 40%
20 stacks(MAX): 40% damage bonus, 40% less effective: 25%(.6) - 50%(.6) = 15-30%
This means that a Destroyer going INTO a fight still maintains good tankiness until he builds stacks which is THEN a tradeoff between tankiness versus DR. This KEEPS Unstoppable for INSTIGATORS.
THEN you can look at adding the DR to sprint AND the IMMUNITY to sprint in INSTIGATOR path.
Shoot that capstone could EASILY be:
Sprint now Grants CC Immunity and X% DR while sprinting. Also you gain 15% Bonus damage for X seconds AFTER being hit. This means INSTIGATOR is in between the two damage wise and tankiness wise...